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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 62060  
Subject: mileage concerns Date: 1/4/2012 8:28 PM
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Since we have had a recent post about the Prius, mileage expectations vs cost, etc., I thought you guys might like this story.

Woman sues Honda over fuel economy claims
video
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/45877490/#45877490
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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39374 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/4/2012 8:47 PM
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different problem , but since you have your fingers in your ears, and your hands over your eyes, you'll never know.

HOnda made a decent Civic that got decent gas mileage...but they were finding the batteries were not going to last for the full warranty period due to the way they operated.

So HOnda came up with new software that protected the battery against early failure.

Unfortunately it also reduced the gas mileage by 30%.....so it was no better than the gas only version.

Then unhappy HOnda owners complained ....and now a lawsuit since the Civic Hybrid, with the factory modification, no longer gets the mileage it did, or what the company said it would.


Simple. Now everyone but lindy-lib knows the answer.




t.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39375 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/4/2012 9:08 PM
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This doesn't make sense to me. The EPA, not Honda, tests cars and gives them their mileage ratings. They have very specific tests (http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/basicinformation.htm). Honda is simply required by law to present the EPA numbers.

The EPA testing doesn't take into consideration the effects of wind and drag on performance and it uses a specific acceleration/deceleration schedules to do it's testing. If you are driving up a mountain or into the wind or stop and start a lot more often than the test assumes, or have a heavy foot on the accelerator and brake, or drive way over the speed limit, you won't get as good a gas mileage.

Maybe she got a car that was way out of spec? From the story, it looked like she was depending on the dashboard computer to tell her the mileage. Most cars with those computers today provide two different numbers - instantaneous mpg (computed every 2 seconds or so) and trip mpg (computed over time from when the trip odometer is reset. The instantaneous mpg was what she was looking at in the film, and that is not a valid way to judge mileage. Over a long enough trip, the trip mpg should be a better reflection of actual mileage, but it could be low because of the computer or fuel sensors even if the car were getting good mileage. The only real way to tell is to keep track of gallons you pump into the tank and miles you drive.

I monitor my actual mpg performance on my cars fairly routinely . . . not every tank of gas, but at least several times a year I will keep track through a couple of tanks of gas. When I'm making a road trip, I've always come fairly close to the epa highway numbers, usually within 1 or 2 mpg above or below those numbers. Over short stretches, mileage can vary more. One trip when I was taking my Saturn to Illinois from Arizona, I drove about 5 hours from Mesa to the Continental divide mostly into a fierce headwind. Then the wind died and I drove on into Amarillo. The difference in the mileage was more than 5 mpg. On city numbers, I typically do better than epa estimates if I drive, but SGSpouse has a lead foot and when she drives she usually does a little worse.

So far, my Accent seems to be doing what it's supposed to do, but I haven't driven it enough to know for sure. I'll be driving it to LA and Santa Clara, CA next week. That will be a better test.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39376 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/4/2012 10:02 PM
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"The EPA testing doesn't take into consideration the effects of wind and drag on performance and it uses a specific acceleration/deceleration schedules to do it's testing. If you are driving up a mountain or into the wind or stop and start a lot more often than the test assumes, or have a heavy foot on the accelerator and brake, or drive way over the speed limit, you won't get as good a gas mileage.

Maybe she got a car that was way out of spec? ."

---

No no no


Honda sold a bunch of Civic Hybrids. They all worked just fine....except, that after a few years, HOnda realized that it had screwed up. It warrantied the batteries for 100K miles or 10 years or something like that.

They realized those batteries weren't going to last the warranty period.

So they came up with a fix. It was a mandatory recall on all Honda Civic Hybrids, done 'free'.


What they did was reduce the amount of power and the time the battery could be used to assist the gas engine. Unlike the Prius, the Honda Civic Hybrid was a 'light hybrid'.

Well, that was fine. HOnda's fix made sure it would not have to spend $5000 per car putting in new batteries before the warranty was up.

Unfortunately now, for the owners, since the battery assist didn't work as often or as long or provide as much power as originally done, the gas mileage plummeted.

It no longer was anywhere where it used to be - mpg wise.

Thus, folks got ticked off and are suing.

It's like you having a car that gets 40 mpg around town, and suddenly your dealer fixes it and it only gets 32. Every single one of them they 'fix'.

Would you be happy?

And it happened to EVERY owner.


t.

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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39377 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/4/2012 10:38 PM
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I wondered those EPA mileage numbers and how Honda could be liable. It didn't make a lot of sense to me, either, but 29 mpg seems VERY low even for someone who has a lead foot, etc. She is a lawyer, though, so you would think she is smart enough to know how to test mileage. Hope we hear a follow up of the story when the case is decided.

I tested speed affecting mpg on a trip to Panama City (from Athens, GA) one time. I am not good about checking my mpg so I don't know how this trip differs, but I think it was a good case any way. I had expressway or 4-lane divided almost the entire way there. I drove less than the speed limit (sometimes 55, sometimes 60), and managed 34 mpg for my Acura 3.2TL. It has a V6 engine. I was very impressed since it claims only 29 highway mpg. I have heard speeds over 55 really do make a big difference on mpg and I believe it.

BTW this is a 2000 car; I was impressed with the mpg claim which was considerably better than many other cars we were testing. The car now has about 166,000 miles and never has had any major work done on it. Our Honda and Toyota cars have always out performed our past American cars. I hope American car companies have figured out how to make a more competitive car because I would like to buy American the next time.

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Author: PolymerMom Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39379 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/5/2012 12:38 AM
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I don't know what the woman who's suing over mpg was doing, but I do know that the mileage in my 2006 Civic hybrid dropped by about 4 mpg after the software upgrade Honda performed in Sept, 2010. It was supposed to preserve battery life, which it may do, and give a better indication of battery charge. It it does it by running the engine more when the battery's low.

This YouTube video shows what my car experiences, although its not my car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1ny0sWVvVM

Once I caught the battery charge indicator (set of bars on the left) at 50% when I came to a stop light. The engine shut off, as its supposed to do. I watched in awe as the charge indicator rose to full charge while waiting for the light to change!

I'm going to make an appointment for Honda to check it out. I have 2 years warranty on it, plus an extra year Honda told me they were adding on.

PM

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39380 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/5/2012 12:49 AM
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It sounds like Honda might have modified their hybrids to preserve batteries at the expense of gas mileage. If that's the case, I understand the legal action.

That's a scary possibility. If it's legal for a manufacturer to modify a car such that it dramatically reduces performance after the car has been sold, then we all are in trouble.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39381 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/5/2012 1:21 AM
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<<That's a scary possibility. If it's legal for a manufacturer to modify a car such that it dramatically reduces performance after the car has been sold, then we all are in trouble. >>


Well----

That would seem to vindicate Tele's prediction of the likelihood of battery failure by cars like these.

Admit it now --- he's quite a guy!



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39384 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/5/2012 8:47 AM
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"I tested speed affecting mpg on a trip to Panama City (from Athens, GA) one time. I am not good about checking my mpg so I don't know how this trip differs, but I think it was a good case any way. I had expressway or 4-lane divided almost the entire way there. I drove less than the speed limit (sometimes 55, sometimes 60), and managed 34 mpg for my Acura 3.2TL. It has a V6 engine. I was very impressed since it claims only 29 highway mpg. I have heard speeds over 55 really do make a big difference on mpg and I believe it."

I hope you did do a check of the odometer. Many of them are off by 5%, giving you more mpg than you actually are getting.

you need to do at least 20-100 miles of checking what your odomoter says vs the highway mile markers.

The older your tires are, the better your gas mileage gets - as the tires wear down, your MPG goes up. maybe up to 5% by the time your tires are fully worn out and you buy new ones.


t

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39385 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/5/2012 8:52 AM
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SP:"That would seem to vindicate Tele's prediction of the likelihood of battery failure by cars like these.

Admit it now --- he's quite a guy!"



It was mainly the not so great engineering in the Civic Hybrid and the weak hybrid system they put in.

so far, Toyota has had about a 1 in 100,000 failure rate on its battery system, and many have reached well over 100,000 miles with no failures. They've replaced something like 0.002% of all the batteries in Priuses and that is for some more than 9 years old now.....

It's just that Honda screwed up, then tried to protect its butt and tried to not have to replace batteries under warranty, and messed up the MPGs of EVERY car they 'modified'.

The Prius car is doing just great with near zero battery failures.


t.

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39388 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/5/2012 10:33 AM
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I hope you did do a check of the odometer. Many of them are off by 5%, giving you more mpg than you actually are getting.

you need to do at least 20-100 miles of checking what your odomoter says vs the highway mile markers.


I wouldn't depend on the accuracy of mile markers. I would use GPS to determine distance.

The older your tires are, the better your gas mileage gets - as the tires wear down, your MPG goes up. maybe up to 5% by the time your tires are fully worn out and you buy new ones.

A lot of that has to due with rolling resistance. Some of it is just an illusion since your car didn't go as far as you think it did with worn tires since the diameter has gotten smaller.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=1...

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39394 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/5/2012 11:09 AM
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I knew that the Honda hybrid didn't get as good mileage as the Toyota Prius.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39395 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/5/2012 11:14 AM
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"Our Honda and Toyota cars have always out performed our past American cars. I hope American car companies have figured out how to make a more competitive car because I would like to buy American the next time." - lindytoes


There are little 1.4 liter diesel engined cars in Europe that get 60-70 miles to the gallon but are not allowed in the United States because of the particulates they produce.

Man, I sure would like to own one of those cars but probably won't happen in my lifetime.

Artie

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39398 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/5/2012 11:33 AM
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"There are little 1.4 liter diesel engined cars in Europe that get 60-70 miles to the gallon but are not allowed in the United States because of the particulates they produce.

Man, I sure would like to own one of those cars but probably won't happen in my lifetime. "

They are also designed for little European midgets too.....you wouldn't fit in them.

I test drove a Chevy Sonic..didn't want to, but had to drive it before I could drive the Volt.....what a piece of teeny crap. I barely could get in, my knees hit the dash and console, and it was almost impossible to use the pedals. Don't buy one if you are over 5'10" tall.....


t.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39399 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/5/2012 11:48 AM
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"They are also designed for little European midgets too.....you wouldn't fit in them. I test drove a Chevy Sonic..didn't want to, but had to drive it before I could drive the Volt.....what a piece of teeny crap. I barely could get in, my knees hit the dash and console, and it was almost impossible to use the pedals. Don't buy one if you are over 5'10" tall." - tele
------------------------

My niece, Heather, has a Toyota Yaris and you wouldn't believe how big and roomy it is inside. It's tall so my head doesn't hit the ceiling. It was quite comfortable. She and I are both "big" people and the two of us sat in the front of the Yaris with no problem. It also has a plethora of cup holders. Heather really loves her Yaris.

Art

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39408 of 62060
Subject: Re: mileage concerns Date: 1/6/2012 8:15 AM
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European midgets.
---------------

Shortly after my software company bought a small German software company, they brought their team over for a party in the US. I waas standing around with my white & Asian colleagues looking over at the relatively gigantic Europeans, and said, "Mein Gott, maybe they really are the master race! " ;-)

Speaking of Prii, hubby's has never had a problem with the big battery, or much of anything else, and it's 10 years old. He gets better than claimed mileage--actually we pretty much both do with every car as we tend to drive so as to conserve gas. For my husband, it's like a contest, and for me, well I always hate spending on utilities.

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