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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1955468  
Subject: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 12:24 PM
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I saw this article and am not sure what to make of it. It appears our Military is headed down the wrong road according to the op. I have read of the terrible suicide rate among our military and the sub-standard care happening within the V A.
What is happening with our Military? Your thoughts?

snip
"The Military Knows It Has a Morality Problem
Sexual abuse. Adultery. Misconduct. Divorce. Suicide. Has the U.S. military lost its way after a decade of war?

It has not been a good year for America’s armed forces. David Petraeus’s extramarital affair dominated headlines; 25 instructors are under investigation for systematic sexual abuse of cadets at Lackland Air Force Base; and a rash of senior officers—at the rank of colonel or higher—have been reprimanded for serious misconduct. Last month, Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, wrote to all four-star generals and flag officers asking for institutional soul-searching. Has the military’s behavior, he seemed to be asking, threatened the “sacred trust” among top officers, the men and women they lead, and the American people? “I know you share my concern when events occur that call that trust into question,” Dempsey wrote in the memo obtained by National Journal. “We must be alert to even the perception that our Nation’s most senior officers have lost their way.”

more
http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/the-military-knows-i...
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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843369 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 1:18 PM
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I suspect there is nothing new here. The military is just a microcosm of society. There have been numerous instances in the past of sexual misconduct and other inappropriate behavior in the military.

And I believe that during time of war the stress level is understandably exaggerated , which can bring out the worse in people. So, I would think what we are seeing would be no different then any other time of war.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843372 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 1:28 PM
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Our military has been stretched beyond comprehension.

Two million service members have cycled into and out of Iraq and Afghanistan- some of them serving multiple times- in both places.

There are an estimated 400,000 combat veterans who are suffering from PTSD or other related psychological problems- drug/alcohol abuse, suicidal ideation, violence, etc.

I remember the same sort of thing going toward the end of Vietnam... drug abuse, fragging of officers, desertion, violence.

Perhaps it is one of the inescapable consequences of protracted conflict. Our soldiers, sailors and airmen are not invulnerable, and combat takes its toll in ways that are not immediately apparent.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843378 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 2:05 PM
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Bill, it sadden me to read your reply. I supported both Bush and the prez as CIC, but I believe all is for naught anymore and have said more than once it is time to bring our troops home.

I remember well the aftermath of a neighbor and my God-daughter's 'big brother' and how Vietnam took it's toll on them.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843393 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 3:12 PM
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I suspect there is nothing new here. The military is just a microcosm of society.

Correct.

The only difference is that modern communications puts the reality front and center so everybody can wallow in it together.

The new hospital being built at Camp Pendelton is going to have large orthopedic and obstetric departments because, straight or gay, marines screw and screw around a lot.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843394 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 3:19 PM
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Perhaps it is one of the inescapable consequences of protracted conflict. Our soldiers, sailors and airmen are not invulnerable, and combat takes its toll in ways that are not immediately apparent.

Nah. War time, peace time, hot war, cold war, soldiers are people. A bored clerk stationed in Stuttgart or Mannheim is gonna screw around same as a guy in the Philipines or on leave at De Russy.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843400 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 4:26 PM
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And I believe that during time of war the stress level is understandably exaggerated , which can bring out the worse in people. So, I would think what we are seeing would be no different then any other time of war.


_______________________________

I'm not too sure about that. The suicide rate among soldiers seems to be at an all time high. It really bothers me what is happening to the soldiers to cause this and how can it be stopped. I understand this will happen but there is more to this than meets the eye since the suicide rate is so high.

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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843403 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 4:34 PM
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Nah. War time, peace time, hot war, cold war, soldiers are people. A bored clerk stationed in Stuttgart or Mannheim is gonna screw around same as a guy in the Philipines or on leave at De Russy.


Maybe. But I also think that soldiers that screw up are given a shorter leash in peacetime. During wartime, minor infractions are ignored until they become too big to ignore.

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843418 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 5:29 PM
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There appears to be more institutional attention devoted now to these matters than when Eisenhower was boning his driver. In 'Nam a full colonel was assigned to keep local hookers clean in DaNang; perhaps that would now be considered institutional immorality? Or maybe just smart.

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843421 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 5:37 PM
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I'm not too sure about that. The suicide rate among soldiers seems to be at an all time high.

And you think that's a morality issue? No, it's the inevitable aftermath of idiot leaders going to two wars with insufficient numbers of troops. A rise would happen even with a sufficient force, but the dim bulbs you so loved multiplied the problem by using a forcerequiring 3,4, and 5 tours of duty. It ain't a day at the beach, and if you guys really gave a damn about the troops it wouldn't have come down this way, and now you blame it on the troops morality? Unsurprising but shameful.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843437 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 6:37 PM
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I'm not too sure about that. The suicide rate among soldiers seems to be at an all time high.

And you think that's a morality issue? No, it's the inevitable aftermath of idiot leaders going to two wars with insufficient numbers of troops. A rise would happen even with a sufficient force, but the dim bulbs you so loved multiplied the problem by using a forcerequiring 3,4, and 5 tours of duty. It ain't a day at the beach, and if you guys really gave a damn about the troops it wouldn't have come down this way, and now you blame it on the troops morality? Unsurprising but shameful.

______________________

You seem to forget the cic for the going on the past four years is the prez. Since then the Afghan war has gone from bad to disaster. 70% of all the casualities has happened under the prez watch, so don't heap the blame onto one side. Talk about shameful. It's been a decent discussion till now....
But aside all this and aside of the morality issue is the suicide rate. The suicide rate is horrendous and it is briefly mentioned in the op. As I said, there is more to this when soldiers who are trained to do heroic deeds are pushed to the brink and take their own life. So, since you saw fit to blame one side and think you know all the answers why is this happening under the prez watch and what can be done to stop it?

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843443 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/9/2012 7:00 PM
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The elevated suicide rate was firmly documented well before 2009, it would have gone up anyway with the inevitable appearance of PTSD but too many rotations make that a hell of a lot worse. Fatalities do escalate when an adequate number of troops are introduced in theatre, but as I said the elevated suicide rate pre-dates a President who actually tries to do his job. It's due to PTSD, which is aggravated by too many rotations. Remember who said he went to war with the army he had? His name was Dumbsfeld, or something like that.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843518 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/10/2012 12:57 AM
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sano obstetric departments

Now there you have a definite advantage to gay troops.

Peter

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843519 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/10/2012 1:04 AM
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Mom, I have worried for a long time about these multiple tours of duty. We didn't have that in 'Nam (which was bad enough).

Combine that with a public which for the most part is not involved in the war at all and you have a recipe for severe psychological stress.

I believe the US should never go to war again unless the survival of the nation is at stake. And then it should be full mobilization as in WWII and a return of the draft.

Peter

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843522 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/10/2012 1:39 AM
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I'm not sure the comments in this thread really have anything to do with the article in the op. It's about lack of moral character among military leadership, not the troops.

. . . David Petraeus’s extramarital affair . . . a rash of senior officers have been reprimanded for serious misconduct . . . Has the military’s behavior threatened the “sacred trust” among top officers . . . Have the exigencies of war fostered a rules-don’t-apply attitude of unquestioned privilege among the top ranks . . .

I think the lack of morality has gone far above even this level. The entire Iraq invasion was sold based on lies about WMDs. Tens of thousands of people died over those lies. In addition to the billions of US dollars wasted on these two wars, tens of millions of US dollars were spent directly on bribes to horrendous warlords and corrupt military figures of the invaded countries. Our country institutionalized the use of mercenaries, prisoner torture without due process, un-monitored surveillance of our own citizens, and now indiscriminate drone warfare.

All of this has nothing to do directly with the troops. But the troops that are risking their lives for this country who witness such amoral behavior and corruption must surely have difficulty rationalizing their role in the conflict . . . thus the high suicide rate.

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Author: jakalant Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843523 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/10/2012 2:20 AM
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Read
http://www.amazon.com/Achilles-Vietnam-Combat-Undoing-Charac...
Like Dukakis said about Reagan which nobody wanted to believe, a fish rots from the head down.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843533 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/10/2012 7:50 AM
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Mom, I have worried for a long time about these multiple tours of duty. We didn't have that in 'Nam (which was bad enough).

Combine that with a public which for the most part is not involved in the war at all and you have a recipe for severe psychological stress.

I believe the US should never go to war again unless the survival of the nation is at stake. And then it should be full mobilization as in WWII and a return of the draft.

Peter

______________________________________

We have 'talked' about this in the past. We both believe it is time to bring the troops home.
My opinion the public is not involved in the war is due to the prez and the media 'blackout'. I'm not going to go into this. My concern is the high suicide rate among the troops.
I am becoming of the opinion keep our military strong and as you said do not go to war unless the survival of the nation is at stake. We can help with equipment etc. but keep our troops home.

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Author: JoelCairo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843668 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/10/2012 1:23 PM
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As we know from the history of the Air Force Academy, there has been abuse of women for a long long time in the military.

But I think it goes beyond that -- I suspect that a normal part of war over history is rape of the conquored women. Why has it not been given more prominence? Probably because its hard to document, it doesn't happen in No Man's Land, and history has largely been written by men.

The Russians raped two million women in their drive to take Berlin in 1945 -- it was an organized effort. Recently I saw a special on Gengis Kahn which reported that he loved rape, so much so that it is estimated that one in 200 people on earth carry his DNA. And that 60,000 Han women in Peking committed suicide when he attacked and took it, rather than suffer the terrors that would become them after they were captured.

Of course, the right wing will blame homosexuals and liberals.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843671 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/10/2012 1:36 PM
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As we know from the history of the Air Force Academy, there has been abuse of women for a long long time in the military.

But I think it goes beyond that -- I suspect that a normal part of war over history is rape of the conquored women. Why has it not been given more prominence? Probably because its hard to document, it doesn't happen in No Man's Land, and history has largely been written by men.

The Russians raped two million women in their drive to take Berlin in 1945 -- it was an organized effort. Recently I saw a special on Gengis Kahn which reported that he loved rape, so much so that it is estimated that one in 200 people on earth carry his DNA. And that 60,000 Han women in Peking committed suicide when he attacked and took it, rather than suffer the terrors that would become them after they were captured.

Of course, the right wing will blame homosexuals and liberals.
________________

Not me, nope.

Your statment would be more accurate if you said BY the military of conquering armies, not in the military.

The Lombardy's of Spain made Italian grooms take their bride to them on their wedding night and let them have their way with her in all manner of beastly behavior. If she wasn't a vigin they'd kill her, if he didn't, they'd kill him.

One thing for certain, and was "allowed" to live, she wasn't a vigin when they got done with her.

One thing is for

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843676 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/10/2012 2:05 PM
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I wrote: Not me, nope.

Your statment would be more accurate if you said BY the military of conquering armies, not in the military.

The Lombardy's of Spain made Italian grooms take their bride to them on their wedding night and let them have their way with her in all manner of beastly behavior. If she wasn't a vigin they'd kill her, if he didn't, they'd kill him.

One thing for certain, and was "allowed" to live, she wasn't a vigin when they got done with her.
_______________________

I made a big, big error here. Not the Lombards, The Bourbons

http://www.sunypress.edu/pdf/61273.pdf

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Author: JoelCairo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843769 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/10/2012 5:04 PM
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Your statment would be more accurate if you said BY the military of conquering armies, not in the military.

I was talking about two different things, though they both arise (no pun intended) from the same source.

I think your point is about another abuse of women by lords of the manor, who felt, in many societies, like they got first dibs before the marriage was consumated.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843798 of 1955468
Subject: Re: Military Morality Problems Date: 12/10/2012 6:07 PM
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The military is just a microcosm of society.
No. It is not. It is unique and exceptional.

There's a vanishingly small % of people in our society who have any engagement with the military. Mostly the rest of us just sit on out butts and sing patriotic songs and say we love the troops. We have taken the few who are willing to put it all on the line and stretched them to the breaking point with multiple tours. We have taken men and women with TBI's and PTSD and recruited them back to service to fight the wars that have wasted the better part of the past decade. We have broken and are breaking them, and then wonder why so many of them crack.

The military bears no resemblance to the life of the rest of us. In some ways it's better, in other ways worse (they are often preyed upon by predatory lenders), but it's not the same.

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