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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 128996  
Subject: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/7/2012 11:51 PM
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I cleared away all the stuff on the wall where my cabinets are going to go. Swept up the floor. Took some measurements (e.g. concrete stem plus baseboard is 7" above floor).

Standing there looking at it I realized I do have a bit of a dilemma. I had not planned to put a back on the cabinets. The back is going to be the wall. So how do I mount them? I'll be using sheets of 3/4" ply, and the wall in question is block. Toe-nailing is probably both impractical, and ill-advised.

My present thought is to mount some backer strips (the baseboard sticks out about 1/2" anyway, so it would be better if I put up a strip to provide a reasonably straight surface). I would have to figure out how to mount them to concrete block walls (maybe red-heads?). Then I would need to use wood glue (a bead all the way along the length) and some sort of strap to secure the ply to the strip.

The shelves should be easier. Just need to rout channels in the vertical ply and then slide the shelves into the channels (with a bead of wood glue, of course). But I need to make sure the whole thing is solidly attached to the block wall lest it fall over onto one of the cars. That would be bad.

1poorguy
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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123313 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/9/2012 12:35 PM
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Why not just install angles from inside face of sides to block wall? It would essentially then just be a frame with doors.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123314 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/9/2012 1:27 PM
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You mean metal angle braces? That's what I meant by "straps" (though looking back at my old post I should have been more clear). If you meant something else, I'd be interested.

I was thinking I'd be doing wood pieces in all corners of each large cavity within for stability.

And I do need those furring strips to allow for the baseboard.

Yes, it's a frame with shelves attached to the wall. That's the idea. I don't see a lot of value attaching backing to enclose the cavities (the wall can serve that purpose), plus it would make the units very heavy when I went to move them into place (and I'm doing this alone). Doing it this way I can build outwards from the wall, attaching everything as I go. At least that's what I'm hoping.

1poorguy

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123324 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/11/2012 9:59 AM
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The fasteners you are looking for are called Tapcons. Your local hardware store will have them.

xtn

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123325 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/11/2012 10:01 AM
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Oh yeah, you'll want a carbide drill bit. Check the Tapcon package to tell you what size bit.

xtn

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123326 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/11/2012 10:02 AM
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Oops... in case it isn't obvious... you'll need a carbide masonry bit.

xtn

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Author: akck Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123328 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/11/2012 11:45 AM
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Last time I bought Tapcons, they had drill bits right by the screws. I bought 2, but ended up only using 1 of them. I of course put the unused one in a safe place so I'll need to buy another one next time.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123330 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/11/2012 12:23 PM
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I was thinking something like these:

http://www.confast.com/products/concrete-sleeve-anchor.aspx

I would think those would hold in cinder blocks without breaking them. (The wall is an insulated block, sort of like Omniblock: http://www.omniblock.com/)

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123331 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/11/2012 1:08 PM
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I was thinking something like these:
Are you planning to use it to anchor an engine puller? :)

I think that's overkill for holding cupboards in place.

I'd go with either tapcon screws - or simple plastic anchors, ex.
http://www.hilti.com/holcom/page/module/product/prca_product...

A simple plastic anchor will probably give you >30 pounds of holding force. So if you put just one in each corner, it'd take >120 pounds of force to move the cabinet away from the wall. (I think well over 120lb - but I don't have anything handy to say how much more than 30 pounds you can expect from a plastic anchor)

I'm sure it's not as much as the 875 pounds on the ones you linked. But still way more than adequate I think. (At least I'm thinking this is something that's mostly vertical load supported directly by the wood that composes it - if the anchors weren't there, there'd be no tipping force acting on it - at least not until a kid/grandkid decided to climb up the shelves. ;) And a few plastic anchors or tapcons would be sufficient for that sort of thing I think.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123332 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/11/2012 1:29 PM
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I do tend to go for stronger, especially when the cost difference usually isn't much. Those simple screws look incredibly not-strong to me. But, no, I wouldn't expect a lot of lateral pull on the unit. And if I got some I suspect the mounting of the unit to the furring strips would be weaker than the strips to the wall.

I'm still mulling that one over. My best thought to attach the vertical "bulkheads" to the strips is something like this: http://www.carinya.com.au/plugins/carinya/images/angle_brack...

But I usually associate those more with stability than with mounting strength.

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123333 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/11/2012 3:49 PM
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Construct a rectangular frame of 2x2 such that it fits just inside your intended cabinet walls. Mount frame to CMU wall with Tapcons every 8" or so. Construct cabinet with rear lower edges trimmed to fit over baseboard. Mount cabinet over frame and secure with appropriate cabinetry screws.

Alternates:

1. Maybe only a three-sided frame, since your cabinet unit will not have it's own floor. Use the complete rectangle frame for upper cabinets if any are planned.

2. Secure lower side edges to similar mounting strips installed on floor.

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123334 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/11/2012 6:05 PM
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Those simple screws look incredibly not-strong to me.

Plastic anchors in the correct sized hole do pretty well at not being pulled out. They aren't something I'd use overhead for anything more than a construction paper kids project. But for what you're doing, I think they'll be more than sufficient.

Tapcons are probably as good or better than the other thing you had - the screw threads bite into the concrete, so for them to be pulled out, either the thread fails, or the concrete does. I have used tapcons for a small project (mounting safety sensor for garage door) and the only issue I had was drilling the holes (I think I hit a rock or something that didn't drill easily, but moving half-inch to the side gave me no problem - and now that I have a rotary hammer drill, I don't think I'd have a problem at all.)

Looking at the tension force on tapcons - it'd take a lot to pull them out of a cement wall:
http://www.concretescrews.com/technical-info/tapcon-concrete...


My best thought to attach the vertical "bulkheads" to the strips is something like this: http://www.carinya.com.au/plugins/carinya/images/angle_brack......

Those would work.

You had been talking about strips (one or more) along the surface of the wall, to fasten the verticals to, and to bring it out slightly because of something at the bottom I think. You could go straight through that board/plywood, and into the wall.

Also - you could use angle brackets with one leg on the wall, the other on the very top of the cabinet.

Angle brackets are probably going to be less likely to fail than the plywood you attach them to - and to get that to fail would take a lot of force. I use small angle brackets (~2" steel brackets), fastened to the top of book cases to keep them from tipping in case of an earthquake.

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123335 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/11/2012 6:18 PM
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Mount frame to CMU wall with Tapcons every 8" or so.
Seems a bit excessive to me... You own stock in a carbide bit manufacturer? :)

Every 8", would be 12 of them on each side for a 8' high cabinet, plus 3 across the top for a 3' wide cabinet. That's 27 holes/screws for one cabinet. I think just 6 (3 each side) would be sufficient for the intended usage. (maybe 2x that if you use brackets because you'll probably want two screws in each bracket)

Use the complete rectangle frame for upper cabinets if any are planned.
Hmm - maybe here's the difference in vision.
I'm visualizing a 8' tall cabinet, sitting on the floor - walls of the cabinet start at the floor and go to the top - all weight on the top shelf goes straight down through the walls to the floor.
NOT like typical kitchen cabinets, where there are upper cabinets only supported by the wall. In which case, I would agree you want more fasteners to make sure that cabinet is very securely fastened to the wall.

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123337 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/13/2012 8:50 AM
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Hmm - maybe here's the difference in vision.
I'm visualizing a 8' tall cabinet, sitting on the floor - walls of the cabinet start at the floor and go to the top - all weight on the top shelf goes straight down through the walls to the floor.<?i>

Ahhhhhh... Then they COULD be free standing and not connected to the wall at all. You just want the attachment to the wall to keep them in place and to substitute for a rear cabinet wall, right? Then I suggest just a couple of strategically located blocks instead of full rectangular frames, but the principle is the same. Tapcon a couple blocks of wood to the wall, slide your cabinet up to the wall over the blocks, then screw/nail the rear cabinet edge to the blocks.

xtn


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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123338 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/13/2012 9:47 PM
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You've given me some ideas. I could install the furring strips, as planned. Make sure they are 3" strips (of which about 3/4" would be covered by the plywood bulkhead, leaving about an inch (and an 1/8th) on either side. Then build the frame for the cabinets using mitered braces in the corners of each cavity (a good idea anyway). Those would be vertical so you'd see the angle piece parallel to the wall at the back of each opening. Then drive a screw through that into the furring strips to mount the unit. That would give me at least a dozen mounting points.

And I could still do a flange at the top of the unit (probably 2 or 3, really) that secures to the wall outside the system. Sort of anti-tipping ties, except they really are additional mounts.

That ought to be strong enough, I would think. Yes?

I appreciate all the input so far. It's been very helpful.

1poorguy

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123339 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/14/2012 12:59 AM
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I could install the furring strips, as planned. Make sure they are 3" strips (of which about 3/4" would be covered by the plywood bulkhead, leaving about an inch (and an 1/8th) on either side.

I'm not quite following what you're describing.

Lets start with what you're looking to build - are they 8' tall cabinets? ie. from the floor to near the ceiling?
Or are these more like kitchen cabinets? That there are upper cabinets that are only attached to the wall?

The furring strips you're planning on - how thick are they, and why are you putting them up? (I think maybe you're describing 8' tall, 3/4" thick, and 3" wide, with the vertical walls of the cabinets resting against each strip.

Sort of anti-tipping ties, except they really are additional mounts.
Are they really supporting the load of the cabinet?
If you're really supporting the load of the cabinet by the wall, I'd consider using a construction adhesive to glue it to the wall, as well as masonry screws/bolts. Construction adhesive (ex. PL400 or LiquidNails) can provide a lot of holding power.

The one caveat with using something like that is that I would make sure that whatever you're gluing in place is something you want to stay there - because removing it would be a PITA.

At least if it were me, I'd rather put a bead or two of PL400 on, rather than drill twice as many holes.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 123343 of 128996
Subject: Re: more carpentry advice :-) Date: 12/14/2012 10:30 AM
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No, not like kitchen cabinets. They will rest on the floor.

The furring strips are there because there is a baseboard around the garage just above the stem (i.e. NOT on the floor). The simplest way to deal with that is furring strips 3/4" thick (which is how thick the base is) so I don't have to bother with fancy cuts around the base.

I think maybe you're describing 8' tall, 3/4" thick, and 3" wide, with the vertical walls of the cabinets resting against each strip.

Yes. Though they will be cut to 7' 5" because the top of the baseboard is 7" above the garage floor. I could just let them project above the top by 7"...no harm...just not as attractive, so I plan to cut them.

I am planning on using adhesive (wood glue, or maybe Liquid Nails) wherever wood meets wood. In addition to fasteners.

The structure should mostly free-stand, though without a backing (and the presence of cabinet doors on the front) it will be a bit front-heavy. The wall attachment is just for additional stability (as a sheet of backing would) and to make sure it doesn't try to fall at any point. A few attach points at the top should make sure it doesn't go anywhere. Even simple metal angle brackets would do that job.

At approximately the 40" mark I plan to rout grooves in the bulkheads so that a fixed shelf can be inserted/attached. Above and below this I will use those metal strips with the tabs for adjustable shelving.

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