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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 736962  
Subject: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/6/2014 11:16 AM
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Heard the following on the morning drive to work while listening to Walton & Johson Talk Show (haven't had time to look for a link).

The Obamacare website, intended to serve up to 50,000 people at a time, cost an estimated $700 million build (government isn't releasing info). Amazon.com website, intended to serve up to 10 million people at a time, cost about $4 million to build.

WTF AMAZING.

JLC
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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714330 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/6/2014 12:09 PM
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by the time this ObamaKare disaster web site is done, it will be at least 2 billion in cost...and still won't work right part of the time.

worse, there will be so much fraud and abuse, with no cross checking, that Medicaid costs and subsidy costs will run 400% over projections giving us a $200 billion a year additional deficit that no one planned for.


I know.....they'll just have to raise taxes on the rich to make up for it.....

then call for a national sales tax or value added tax to help stop the red ink flow...



t.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714348 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/6/2014 1:21 PM
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The Obamacare website, intended to serve up to 50,000 people at a time, cost an estimated $700 million build (government isn't releasing info).

Clarity, not ideology, is what matters relative to a debacle this big. I'm not sure the website itself cost that much to build. I mean, how is it even possible to spend $700 million on a website?! Libruls are actively trying to ratchet back that figure. And good for them, because the facts matter here.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/24/the-myth-of-the-634-...

Citing an official inside GCI, The Blaze reported the $634 figure "includes all of the company's contracts for a Health and Human Services Department program over the last seven years." Independently, the Sunlight Foundation estimated it cost $70 million to build the much-maligned website, not $634 million. (Officially, CGI was awarded a $93 million [still too much] contract for the healthcare. gov job.) And today in his Fact Checker column in the Washington Post, Glenn Kessler looked at the question of the healthcare. gov cost and concluded, "A conservative figure would be $70 million [stil too much]. A more modest figure would be $125 million to $150 million." Kessler noted that the cost for the entire health care project beyond the website would be "at least $350 million." […]

As for the Twitter and Instragram comparisons, they don't make much sense in terms of what those hugely popular and relatively simple social media sites do (swap updates and photos) as compared to what healthcare. gov is supposed to do. Noted Kurt Eichenwald at Vanity Fair regarding healthcare. gov: "The site is one of the most complicated Web-based undertakings ever envisioned not only by the federal government but possibly by any Internet product provider." [Wow! The most ambitious website evah!]

Cogent comments on the article:

~ So, if we are not supposed to trust the conservatives, does that mean we can trust the liberals who are trying to cover for their failed website? How about we just don't trust anyone on the numbers and agree that it cost a crapload, at any rate, and it is effed up--to say the least.

~ As usual, read the fine print. The company in question [CGI] had received contracts for other work besides the healthcare. gov site, so that figure includes fees for past work, not just one site.

***

Well, if that's true, let's find out EXACTLY how much the site actually cost, why CGI got the contract, how CGI got the contract, etc. Yet another scandal in the Owebama administration, to which Hillary would respond, "What difference, at this point, does it make?!"

What Kind of Problem is the ACA Rollout for Liberalism?
http://www.nextnewdeal.net/rortybomb/what-kind-problem-aca-r...

People are naturally asking about the practical and political implications of this disaster. Is it a problem for the Affordable Care Act as a whole, with its mixture of individual mandates and risk-pooling? Is it a political disaster for President Obama and the Democrats? Does this show us major problems in the way that government procures its contractors? These are important questions, but some are asking a bigger one: is this a problem for liberalism as a political governance project? Does this rollout failure discredit the core goals of a liberal project, including that of a mixed economy, a regulatory state, and social insurance? Conservatives in particular think this website has broad implications for liberalism as a philosophical and political project. I think it does, but for the exact opposite reasons: it highlights the problems inherent in the move to a neoliberal form of governance and social insurance, while demonstrating the superiorities in the older, New Deal form of liberalism. This point is floating out there, and it turns out to be a major problem for conservatives as well, so let's make it clear and explicit here. So what has gone wrong? People are still trying to figure this out. There are the general problems of doing too much with too little time and resources and rolling out a big final product rather than smaller incremental pieces. These are things that, while problematic, don’t particularly have a political story to tell.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714353 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/6/2014 1:33 PM
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I know.....they'll just have to raise taxes on the rich to make up for it… then call for a national sales tax or value added tax to help stop the red ink flow…

Tax the rich. Problem solved. ~Michael Moore [net worth $50 million]

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/tax-rich...

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714356 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/6/2014 1:42 PM
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I know.....they'll just have to raise taxes on the rich to make up for it.....

then call for a national sales tax or value added tax to help stop the red ink flow...



t.


Once they institute a national sales tax or VAT, black market here we come. Yeah, I know. I am a racist for calling the underground economy the black market. <g>

Mike

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Author: SpeedBump13 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714389 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/6/2014 6:04 PM
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The fact that you can't understand the difference between ordering a book and combing through several separate secure tax, insurance, and health databases to make sure the applicant receives the correct benefit information is ...well ...WTF AMAZING!

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714396 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/6/2014 6:17 PM
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The fact that you can't understand the difference between ordering a book and combing through several separate secure tax, insurance, and health databases to make sure the applicant receives the correct benefit information is ...well ...WTF AMAZING! ~SpeedBump

Man, the more you post, the more apt your moniker is. There's a LOT more going on at Amazon, FedEx, eBay and other equally complex commerce sites than "ordering a book" or shipping a package.

How Does Healthcare. gov Really Work [Infographic] [Screenshots]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eduardo-garcia/how-does-health...

After spending some time trying to shop for insurance for my parents, and facing the same issues everyone has been having, I decided to put on my developer hat and try to figure out how this web application works. Using my browser's developer tools (I use Safari and Chrome) I was able to identify some of the various technical components of the application, and created the info graphic below. I also listened to the entire YouTube video and reviewed the documentation published on the U.S. House, Committee on Energy and Commerce. PPACA Implementation Failures: Didn't Know or Didn't Disclose?, Hearing, which aired on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 9:00am.

According to the testimony from 4 of the main contractors associated with the Healthcare. gov project, specifically CGI Federal and QSSI/Optum, the "Federally Facilitated Marketplace" or FFM is a complex web application which serves as the face of the Obama Administration's highly touted Affordable Care Act. From my review of the FFM, it appears it has been built using a combination of HTML5 technologies including Twitter's Bootstrap Responsive Framework, jQuery, and Backbone.JS. The site also uses pingdom for monitoring, optimizely for testing and optimization, and virtual server infrastructure provided by Terremark, a Verizon subsidiary. The FFM was developed by CGI Federal under a $293 Million contract from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), a branch of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).

A key component that was cited as a source of 'bottlenecks' is the Enterprise Identity Management or EIDM, which was developed by Optum/QSSI under a $85 Million contract from CMS as well. In my initial review it was unclear what technologies this system is exactly built on, but it was clear that it has a RESTful API that provides authentication, authorization, and access to FFM and, presumably, other CMS applications. It would've made sense to use this system, especially if it was already in place prior to the development of the FFM, since, presumably, it already has integrations to other systems built, and existing user data. Cheryl Campbell, SVP of CGI Federal, in the aforementioned committee hearing, kept referring to EIDM as "the front door" of the application. However, EIDM appears to be acting more like a AAA gateway and/or proxy, providing secure access to all back-end systems.

Another critical component, and to me, the core of the Healthcare. gov web application, is the "Data Services Hub". This system was also developed by Optum/QSSI, and acts as a transactional-based data integration and web services layer to all the insurers' databases, CMS databases, and Equifax Income Verfication Services' systems. Given some of the error messages that I was able to view during my interaction with Healthcare. gov, I can tell that this system consists of a JBoss Application Server with data access components and RESTful web services developed using Java. Given my prior experience with JBoss and Java, although they are great for middleware development, they're known to be a bit slow.

Finally, CMS has contracted with Serco to process all paper-based applications, which get entered onto the FFM using the same interface as consumers use, sans the account creation process. Presumably, Serco has special accounts in the EIDM. Obviously, if the FFM is not working properly, those paper applications will not be able to get processed.

CORRECTION: A previous version of this post claimed Amazon Web Services provided services for Healthcare. gov. Amazon Web Services is not involved with Healthcare. gov.

***

Face it, Mr. Bump, Baracky's website is one huge failure.

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Author: beaconclks Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714400 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/6/2014 6:38 PM
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The fact that you can't understand the difference between ordering a book and combing through several separate secure tax, insurance, and health databases to make sure the applicant receives the correct benefit information is ...well ...WTF AMAZING!

Bump

______________________________________________

There's no difference to a computer system. The fact that you can't understand that is....well....EXPECTED!

First off, a target of "50,000 people at a time" is a complete joke, especially for a system that cost $700+ million. Computer systems companies have estimated that the entire website should have cost no more than $10 million that includes proper security, interconnectivity to appropriate links, and could handle millions at a time.

Second, where did you get the delusional idea that there exists "several separate, secure tax, insurance, and health databases? The evidence is pretty clear that in addition to the front-end of the website being a disaster, the "back-end", the other stuff you mistakenly think exists is absolutely not secure, and the various database systems are woefully incomplete and aren't integrated properly.

That's the difference between market-based systems and a leftist, centrally-controlled train-wreck brainstormed by idiot leftist, academician-types who've never actually managed anything more complicated than harvesting their navel lint.

The fact that the no-bid contract was given to Mrs. Bozo's Canadian crony is no surprise either.

The country is still in the 1st part of a multi-part train-wreck called Bozocare. It's a complete disaster invented by idiots. Hell, the worst parts are yet to come. Bozo unconstitutionally delayed all the mandates and will have to secretly bail-out the insurance companies that were stupid enough to think this fiasco was going to work properly. The doctor shortage will be next. The entire cluster will be worse than any other socialized medical system the world has ever witnessed.

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Author: SpeedBump13 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714452 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/7/2014 8:04 AM
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I can't draw you a picture here, so I'll just have to use short words.

The big web site is not just selling a product. It has to check and offer a new answer to each and every person, based on their age, income, health, where they live, and so on. This is what happens when people who want to help must compromise with people who want government to fail.

All we had to do is look at every other country, which offers longer life at half the cost. A picture: http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/us%20he...

Sorry about the two part words. I did my best.

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Author: THEMATHISNEAR Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714456 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/7/2014 8:49 AM
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The entire cluster will be worse than any other socialized medical system the world has ever witnessed.

Brilliant post. The only part you left out was, "Despite causing immense pain for millions of Americans, the left, assisted by their media sycophants, will accept none of the blame for the program they alone created and foisted on the American public."

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Author: JonathanRoth Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714485 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/7/2014 11:29 AM
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Amazon.com website, intended to serve up to 10 million people at a time, cost about $4 million to build

I'm an IT project manager and last year finished a *small* web site upgrade for a global 10 company. The site brings in a billion or so a year in revenue. The upgrade alone, not a full build-out, cost about $1M.

My DW works for Savvis an cloud hosting and co-location service provider, these services are provided in a structure called a data center. A high quality commercial data center costs $100M+ to build, Amazon owns several.

Amazon's web site cost much more than $4M.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714504 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/7/2014 12:56 PM
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This is what happens when people who want to help must compromise with people who want government to fail.

Republicans had absolutely nothing to do with Baracky's sucky website.

All we had to do is look at every other country, which offers longer life at half the cost.

There isn't a healthcare system in the entire world as large as America's. In addition, socialized medicine in Great Britain, which is one fifth the size of the United States, is collapsing.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714516 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/7/2014 1:38 PM
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Amazon's web site cost much more than $4M. ~JonathanRoth

But not nearly as much as ZeroKare's debacle.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714538 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/7/2014 2:37 PM
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This is what happens when people who want to help must compromise with people who want government to fail.

Obamacare was not instituted by people who want to help. It was instituted by people who want to control, and don't care about the impact on those who are controlled.

The people who want to help are the ones who have been saying all along "GAAH, that's even worse than what we already have!"

Consider that pretty much every failing we are seeing on Obamacare, except for the website being such a technical disaster, was predicted before the law was enacted. (There was nothing in the law that barred issuing the contract to a competent software house.) But the proponents denied that such failures were possible, and now - when they admit the failures at all - generally won't acknowledge that the failures could have been, let alone were, predicted.

And it isn't so much that those who want to help WANT government to fail. It's more that we consider it virtually inevitable, and therefore want government to try less. Whether we consider the hypothetical ain't-gonna-happen success of government desirable varies from case to case and from person to person, but whether it's desirable doesn't really matter if it's effectively impossible.

(I consider perfect anarchy desirable... but given that we don't have perfect people, it'd last about five seconds before somebody started governing his neighbor, the anarchy thereby became imperfect, and it would then become even more imperfect in a rapid spiral; failed anarchy is - on average - quite possibly the worst form of government humans have ever tried.)

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714539 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/7/2014 2:39 PM
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This is what happens when people who want to help must compromise with people who want government to fail.
___________________________________________

SO essentially you are saying the above happens when people who want to be idiots post their thoughts?

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714573 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/7/2014 5:47 PM
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I'm an IT project manager and last year finished a *small* web site upgrade for a global 10 company. The site brings in a billion or so a year in revenue. The upgrade alone, not a full build-out, cost about $1M.

My DW works for Savvis an cloud hosting and co-location service provider, these services are provided in a structure called a data center. A high quality commercial data center costs $100M+ to build, Amazon owns several.

Amazon's web site cost much more than $4M.


Like I said, couldn't find a link, and the show tends to be fairly accurate with info.

But let us say all numbers are off by a factor of 10.

So Obamacare website only cost $70M and can handle 500k at once and Amazon cost $40M and can only handle 1M at once. So the government is delivering 1/2 the people at twice the cost. Or is worse by a factor of 4.

JLC

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Author: JonathanRoth Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714597 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/7/2014 8:07 PM
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But let us say all numbers are off by a factor of 10.

If one data center costs $100M+, and Amazon has multiple data centers across US, Asia Europe, Australia, and possibly Africa to service their world-wide workload then the numbers are off by a lot more than 10 fold.

Data center construction costs covers infrastructure, such as cages, heating/cooling, power, raised floors, physical security.

Data center construction costs do not include computers, racks for the computers, operating system software, database software, application software, network connection, or integration with outside agencies.

Maybe the factor is off by 100,000-1,000,000. Here's a link showing AMZN's R&D spending.

http://ycharts.com/companies/AMZN/r_and_d_expense

This chart shows Amazon is currently spending $1.7B a quarter on R&D which gives an idea of the scale of Amazon's budget. Amazon has also had 20 years to debug their software.

So, not a very valid comparison.

Jack

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Author: SpeedBump13 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714648 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/8/2014 10:03 AM
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Other than the three lies, what else you got?

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714663 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/8/2014 11:31 AM
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So, not a very valid comparison.

IIRC, they were talking software only, not the cost of building out a data center.

JLC

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714670 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/8/2014 11:51 AM
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Other than the three lies, what else you got? ~SpeedBump

Troll smarter, not harder.

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Author: SpeedBump13 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714689 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/8/2014 12:46 PM
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Other than the three lies, what else you got?

Nothing? Just changing the subject?

That's what you always do when caught lying.

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Author: JonathanRoth Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714694 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/8/2014 1:14 PM
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IIRC, they were talking software only, not the cost of building out a data center.

The cost of the data center was only used to show the unreasonableness of estimating Amazon's costs of building their site being $4M. At their current rate of $1.7B/quarter Amazon has spent a lot more than $4M on any major aspect of their infrastructure, hardware, software, or data centers.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714705 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/8/2014 2:10 PM
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The cost of the data center was only used to show the unreasonableness of estimating Amazon's costs of building their site being $4M. At their current rate of $1.7B/quarter Amazon has spent a lot more than $4M on any major aspect of their infrastructure, hardware, software, or data centers.
________________________________

Not fer nuthin but your apples to UFO comparisons don't really mean anything at all.

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Author: JonathanRoth Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714751 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/8/2014 4:09 PM
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Not fer nuthin but your apples to UFO comparisons don't really mean anything at all.

Which is exactly my point about the original post. The $4M figure about Amazon is meaningless. Because it is very clear with a $1.7B/quarter R&D budget and 10 years of development Amazon has paid more than $4M for their software.

Surprised it took so long to understand.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714768 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/8/2014 4:55 PM
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Because it is very clear with a $1.7B/quarter R&D budget
__________________________

Still missing the boat mon ami

that budget for R&D is not the IT budget

If you roll military spending on R&D into the price of ACA development you can get a much bigger meaningless number for them too

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714769 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/8/2014 5:05 PM
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that budget for R&D is not the IT budget

Exactly. Research and development isn't information technology.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714779 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/8/2014 5:42 PM
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Which is exactly my point about the original post. The $4M figure about Amazon is meaningless. Because it is very clear with a $1.7B/quarter R&D budget and 10 years of development Amazon has paid more than $4M for their software.

Surprised it took so long to understand.


Surprised it's taking you so long to understand that the proper comparison for the initial build and deployment of the Obamacare website is not the *current* Amazon website, or the budget for expansion/enhancement which is funded primarily by profits flowing from the already-existing site, but the initial build and deployment of the Amazon website.

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Author: JonathanRoth Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714853 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/9/2014 12:41 AM
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Surprised it's taking you so long to understand that the proper comparison for the initial build and deployment of the Obamacare website is not the *current* Amazon website, or the budget for expansion/enhancement which is funded primarily by profits flowing from the already-existing site, but the initial build and deployment of the Amazon website.

The initial build and deploy of Amazon didn't support 10M concurrent transactions either.

Responding to prior comments, after spending 30 years in software development, 90% in R&D, and managing multi-million dollar projects, I have a firm grasp of the difference between R&D, IT, capital and operational expenses.

So, it's been a pleasure chatting, if you want to continue believing it only cost Amazon $4M to develop their software to support 10M concurrent users, feel free.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714857 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/9/2014 4:29 AM
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Here's a bunch of self-described software engineers sitting around talking about the ZeroKare site. The way the links work prevents me from quoting pertinent portions but it's an interesting discussion,

http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1owop4/el...

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 714860 of 736962
Subject: Re: More Obamacare Overrun Date: 1/9/2014 6:24 AM
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The initial build and deploy of Amazon didn't support 10M concurrent transactions either.

Responding to prior comments, after spending 30 years in software development, 90% in R&D, and managing multi-million dollar projects, I have a firm grasp of the difference between R&D, IT, capital and operational expenses.
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That's cool, me too.

Which means I have spent a lot of time dealing with the user community in a variety of interviews.

I can always tell when someone is FOS, and trying to create a focus away from what they are talking about. Here? Well, you are bringing up all kinds of excuses, this usually means a deadline screw-up, and a unwillingness to accept responsibility for poor thinking in the design phase. Seems your argument defending it, and Obama's folly have a lot in common.

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