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Author: Yankeegymbich2 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 41362  
Subject: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/1/2012 9:30 AM
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A co-worker has been telling me how much she likes this stuff and uses it as a supplement daily.

She gave me a leaflet on it (it's a leaf, hahahaha) but it doesn't tell me much.

Is anyone here familiar with it, and is it a useful supplement or is it hype?
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Author: Yankeegymbich2 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38004 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/1/2012 9:31 AM
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Oh, it's supposed to be great for immunity and for energy.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38005 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 4:18 AM
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Is anyone here familiar with it, and is it a useful supplement or is it hype?

Well, as familiar as Google allows anyone to be....

I think the answer is a sort-of "yes" to both. Seems to be another one of those MLM schemes like Mona Vie etc. so it'd be an income supplement (and always the potential to be hugely successful and make you as rich as Croesus) with associated hype.

That's what you meant, right??

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38006 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 4:22 AM
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Oh, it's supposed to be great for immunity and for energy.

Let me guess.....in a way that boosts your immunity but is also anti-inflammatory?

Pretty much the only "supplement" I've ever observed as being great for a co-worker's energy was back when my office manager was taking Herbalife as a diet supplement......when the active ingredient was ephedra. Now that did work!!1!

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Author: Yankeegymbich2 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38007 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 12:41 PM
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I think the answer is a sort-of "yes" to both. Seems to be another one of those MLM schemes like Mona Vie etc. so it'd be an income supplement (and always the potential to be hugely successful and make you as rich as Croesus) with associated hype.

She also drinks that Mona Vie stuff. Makes a concoction in the AM containing both, and some other thing I forget. Sounds delicious. :P

That's what you meant, right??

Probably.

Remember ear candling?

Yeah, same person.

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Author: Yankeegymbich2 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38008 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 12:44 PM
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Oh, it's supposed to be great for immunity and for energy.

Let me guess.....in a way that boosts your immunity but is also anti-inflammatory?

Hmm, don't recall, but sounds likely that's what they say about it.

Pretty much the only "supplement" I've ever observed as being great for a co-worker's energy was back when my office manager was taking Herbalife as a diet supplement......when the active ingredient was ephedra. Now that did work!!1!

How about Red Bull?

Oh, I guess they don't call that one a "supplement".

:)

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38009 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 2:25 PM
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Is anyone here familiar with it, and is it a useful supplement or is it hype?

Well, as familiar as Google allows anyone to be....


Moringa oleifera turns out to be the horseradish tree, one of the most widely cultivated food plants in the world, I've learned, and extracts from which have been used in several prominent traditional medical/healthcare systems.

Turning not to google but to the American Botanical Council, which I belong to, they have a number of pieces written on moringa, and surveys of the highly interesting research that's been done. This summary from one of the pieces I read gives a sense of what a rigorous academic organization devoted to promoting sound knowledge and exposing fraud has been able to conclude:

"The horseradish tree possesses many biological activities and medicinal uses. Further investigation of these properties, including antitumor and anticancer activities and constituents, and antispasmodic, diuretic, and hepatoprotective effects, is warranted. In addition, further investigation of horseradish tree seeds' coagulant effect and the use of the leaves as a protein source is also warranted."


Seems to be another one of those MLM schemes like Mona Vie etc.

Only if you buy from that particular source. Moringa supplements are manufactured by a variety of companies. That's when google is truly handy. Come up with a bunch of them in 2 seconds flat.


sheila

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38010 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 2:26 PM
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Oh, it's supposed to be great for immunity and for energy.
*****************************
Let me guess.....in a way that boosts your immunity but is also anti-inflammatory?



Do I understand that you feel these are always mutually exclusive events or processes?


sheila

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38011 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 2:28 PM
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I should also say.....claims that moringa is what you need for overall health aren't warranted. At least, not yet. There appear to be a number of interesting and valuable benefits, but more research is needed. That's a sure statement!


sheila

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38012 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 5:06 PM
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Remember ear candling?

Yeah, same person.


There you go.....ear candling, Mona Vie, Amway water softeners etc. It's a mindset......and a downline and potential customer source.

We're just Dream Stealers.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38013 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 5:14 PM
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Remember ear candling?

Yeah, same person.



Has she tried to steer you towards the homeopathic hCG diet, SportLegs, Isagenix or the Tracy Anderson Workout Method (couldn't resist that one) yet??

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38014 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 5:32 PM
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Has she tried to steer you towards the homeopathic hCG diet, ....


Just to clarify -- "homeopathic" and "hCG" don't belong in the same phrase. Nothing even remotely homeopathic about the hCG supplementation that goes along with the 500 cal diet. It's not homeopathic in dose or preparation. And it's not homeopathic in terms of prescription principles. It's a hormone produced by the placenta after conception.

There are many who feel that any weight loss is due to the severely restricted calorie intake. But there are people I know, and patients of physicians I know, who have been unable to lose weight on 500 cal/day by itself, but were able to lose exceptional amounts--and without hunger and with good energy--once they added the hCG injections. It certainly doesn't work for everyone, and is not smart to try without a doctor's supervision. But not everyone's metabolic elements are the same. There are a great many ways in which there are individual differences. And there do truly seem to be some individuals for whom hCG + this diet really is the right move.


sheila

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38015 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/4/2012 6:32 PM
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Just to clarify -- "homeopathic" and "hCG" don't belong in the same phrase. Nothing even remotely homeopathic about the hCG supplementation that goes along with the 500 cal diet. It's not homeopathic in dose or preparation. And it's not homeopathic in terms of prescription principles

Indeed.....but per a previous discussion on this particular topic at sometime in the past, someone (and it wasn't moi) apparently held a different opinion....

......There was a big discussion of HCG + 500 cal for effective weight loss on the botanical/integrative medicine list I belong to -- when this all first came into the spotlight again. Would you believe there's also a homeopathic version??? Some of the physicians in this list group have had patients use this version with great success, losing and then keeping it off and feeling terrific in the process.....

....But I do know that several highly reliable physicians on my list-serv spoke of several patients each who had failed multiple earlier attempts at weight loss, that they were finally successful with the HCG (full-strength or homeopathic preparation), ......

FWIW, a dietary intake of 500 Cals/day will always produce a weight loss (with or without water) The only folk who don't lose weight on this caloric intake are the folk who aren't being observed and monitored closely......and those who believe the story weren't there to do any observing.

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38016 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/5/2012 12:55 AM
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......There was a big discussion of HCG + 500 cal for effective weight loss on the botanical/integrative medicine list I belong to -- when this all first came into the spotlight again. Would you believe there's also a homeopathic version???

Wow--I'd totally forgotten about that aspect of the discussion on my list-serv. Thanks for remembering, and searching it out. Okay. I stand corrected. But you had spoken as if hCG is always homeopathically prepared, and of course it isn't.


FWIW, a dietary intake of 500 Cals/day will always produce a weight loss (with or without water) The only folk who don't lose weight on this caloric intake are the folk who aren't being observed and monitored closely......and those who believe the story weren't there to do any observing.

The docs I was referring to know their patients well enough to know when to take their claims about weight loss difficulties seriously. Of course there's no documentation that these people who reported great difficulty in weight loss at 500 cal unassisted, and then lost their weight when hCG (homeopathic or otherwise) was added. But since you weren't there to observe their dietary faithfulness or lack of, I think it's difficult for you to assert that those who didn't lose hadn't stuck to the diet. For the great majority of people, I'm sure you're right. But I don't think that covers the outliers.


sheila

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38017 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/5/2012 4:35 AM
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For the great majority of people, I'm sure you're right. But I don't think that covers the outliers.

A 500 Cal a day diet is so far below the energy cost of simply being alive that even folk who're in a coma require a greater caloric intake a day. Given what's actually known about how the body works in caloric deficit, evidence of what happens to individuals who consistently eat below their daily energy requirements (whether those examples come from supervised metabolic studies, bariatric surgery or refugee camps etc) a claim of lack of weight loss on a 500Cal a day diet is close to a biological impossibility.

Patients can easily fool their doctors as well as themselves.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38018 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/5/2012 4:57 AM
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Here's a link to part 1 of a oldish BBC series that I found a while back. Denialism accounts for a large part of what's perceived as being an "outlyer"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSm1dWjMGeM

(links to the remaining episodes in the series come up at the end for anyone interested)

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38019 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/5/2012 1:10 PM
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Patients can easily fool their doctors as well as themselves.


Obviously, there are people who do that. But it's not a blanket statement that applies to everyone. You can state your claim with certainty for those you've observed to be talking 500 cal but actually eating a lot more. But that's the limit.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38020 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/5/2012 1:49 PM
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You can state your claim with certainty for those you've observed to be talking 500 cal but actually eating a lot more. But that's the limit.

Not tremendously sure what this means, sheila......but do you really believe that there are folk around who can be genuinely consuming a consistent intake of 500 Cals a day and not losing weight?

I'm not talking here about individuals who have some serious metabolic pathology going on........they'd be much better off to consult with a bone fide endocrinologist rather than a purveyor of crack-pot diet schemes.....but do you really have any reason to believe that a gen-U-ine and consistent diet of 500 Cals a day doesn't produce *weight loss* of some sort.

500 Cals a day. That's less than it takes to keep the Big Four organs going (a.k.a. heart, brain, liver, kidneys......called the Big Four because of their metabolic demand in relation to their respective sizes and importance to, well....life, I guess)

Without the Big Four getting their energy requirements from somewhere, you'd ultimately be looking at a 0 Cals a day requirement....as in a corpse!!

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Author: OleDocJ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38022 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/5/2012 6:46 PM
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Patients can easily fool their doctors as well as themselves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obviously, there are people who do that. But it's not a blanket statement that applies to everyone. You can state your claim with certainty for those you've observed to be talking 500 cal but actually eating a lot more. But that's the limit.


And then, there are people who eat in their sleep: like sleep-walking and sleep-eating.

60 Minutes or someone did a special about sleep-eaters a while back. The people didn't believe the stories by their family members telling about their middle-of-the-night food binges. So ate gawdawful combinations of food and even some non-edible portions. They were shocked when they saw the films of their sleep-walking-eating food binges.

It's not inconceivable that such radical caloric deficit diet could induce a similar scenario -- people eating from hunger while still in a state of sleep, and not remembering it the next day.


OleDoc

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38023 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/6/2012 5:21 AM
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60 Minutes or someone did a special about sleep-eaters a while back. The people didn't believe the stories by their family members telling about their middle-of-the-night food binges. So ate gawdawful combinations of food and even some non-edible portions. They were shocked when they saw the films of their sleep-walking-eating food binges.

Folk are similarly shocked when they see themselves and their subconscious eating or movement habits while they're awake. That's the hard one to crack and why folk are so easily convinced by pundits who tell them that weight management is not calories in vs. calories out or claims that some supplement or other (moringa oleifera, for example) will give them more "energy" and boost their metabolism or something.

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Author: Bakulesh Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38072 of 41362
Subject: Re: Moringa Oleifera Date: 11/30/2012 8:51 PM
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Moringa oleifera is Saragvo in Gujarati. West Indians and South Indians add its fruit which are stick shaped to curries and dals. Outer layer of these sticks is not human edible but center has softer flesh and seeds. So when eating a curry with drumsticks first juices are sucked and then sticks are chewed to crush and to release inner flesh and seeds which are then sucked up and outer layer is then just discarded. Not particularly "civilized" good-table-mannerish way of eating if you compare with how western people eat. We Gujarati eat almost exclusively cooked with thick Kadhi sauce but South Indians add it to Sambar.

Although the tree name is horseradish tree its roots are not horseradish (although they too taste like horseradish). The tree from which horseradish is obtained is: Cochlearia armoracia (=Armoracia rusticana).

All this information is from a variety of sources including the wikipedia article on moringa oleifera and a PDF file that is listed when I searched google with words: Moringa oleifera hindi

-Bakulesh

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