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Author: moxiepal Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 5069  
Subject: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/4/2004 2:07 PM
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I found this link on the Retire Early Home Page which I have been avoiding since I have to wade through SOOO much political brouhaha to get to anything useful. The Akaishas' website: http://www.geocities.com/ba264/ is interesting if you haven't seen it especially the PBS interview with early-retired couples. Their nest egg was $500,000 that apparently has appreciated significantly. They invest aggressively and get their healthcare needs met in less expensive countries (see "Medical Care" link).

This is the sort of article that does my heart good. I am planning to have a bit more than $500,000 before we pull the proverbial plug, but to hear their life described at age 38 to the present and the adventures they have had, countries visited, etc. It is a wonderful antidote to the endless "Is a Million Dollars really enough to retire at 62?" articles that fill the financial sections.

I might spend a little time looking over my post-retirement budget this weekend and see if we can't find a couple of corners to trim...
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Author: moxiepal Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2505 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/4/2004 2:15 PM
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The Akaishas' website:

Ooops, their name is the Kaderli, Billy & Akaisha Kaderli.

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Author: 2old4bs Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2506 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/4/2004 2:42 PM
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If my calculations are correct, the PBS Interview was done in 1999, at the height of the market:

Billy and Akaisha average well over 12% a year on their investment, so at that rate they still have thousands left over each year to reinvest. Works for them, but there are some things to think about.

So what if the stock market collapsed, say as much as 50%, would Mark and Jill have to start all over again? Are they prepared? Have they thought it through carefully enough?

Well, yes we have and life is a risk. You really don't know what tomorrow will bring, but we've planned for that and we do intend to have medical insurance. And, if things change along the way, maybe we will have to go back to work, but we are ready for the challenge.


What's scary is that they say they 'intend' to have medical insurance, which would seem to imply that they didn't have it at the time of the interview.

I'm sure they're currently not making 12% a year, plus they probably lost of bundle over the past 5 years.

I would guess they're back at work now, but I'm sure they had a great 8 years! It still doesn't negate the fact that those 8 years had more to do with the luck of 'timing' than preparation, IMHO

2old



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Author: Hyperborea Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2508 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/4/2004 3:05 PM
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What's scary is that they say they 'intend' to have medical insurance, which would seem to imply that they didn't have it at the time of the interview.

This is the same option that the Terhorst's (Retire at 35 book - http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/5315/index.html ) use. The plan as I understand it is to use medical services in cheaper locations that have good medical facilities (Thailand, Singapore, parts of Europe, etc.). Perhaps not as good as the best available in the US but as good as the average US resident will be able to use and better than the non-insured in the US.

Personally, I'm planning something in between. My wife and I will get high deductible insurance that will cover the really big stuff ($2K-$5K deductible for about $2K / year for two adults in their 40's/50's) but we will use the medical services in non-US locations for the routine and small stuff that we will pay for.

I would guess they're back at work now, but I'm sure they had a great 8 years!

They are apparently still retired and he posts occasionally on Dory36's board - www.early-retirement.org

Hyperborea

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2509 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/4/2004 4:25 PM
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Hyperborea:
Personally, I'm planning something in between. My wife and I will get high deductible insurance that will cover the really big stuff ($2K-$5K deductible for about $2K / year for two adults in their 40's/50's) but we will use the medical services in non-US locations for the routine and small stuff that we will pay for.


I'm still a few years away from FIRE but this is a very similiar plan to what my wife and I want to do. Get very high deductible insurance and pay low monthly premiums in 100-200 per month range. Then with the new MSA's here in the US, I plan to have a stash of at least 20k to take care of the non-deductible expenses. With healthy vegan lifestyles for both me and my wife, I don't expect to go to the doctor or hospital except for accidents.

On the REHP board, I get blasted everytime I post this strategy, usually by people with horrific health. If I planned on $1000 per month "do everything health insurance", I would have to work a lot longer.

decath

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Author: PanemetCircenses Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2510 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/4/2004 4:36 PM
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I'm still a few years away from FIRE but this is a very similiar plan to what my wife and I want to do. Get very high deductible insurance and pay low monthly premiums in 100-200 per month range. Then with the new MSA's here in the US, I plan to have a stash of at least 20k to take care of the non-deductible expenses. With healthy vegan lifestyles for both me and my wife, I don't expect to go to the doctor or hospital except for accidents.

On the REHP board, I get blasted everytime I post this strategy, usually by people with horrific health. If I planned on $1000 per month "do everything health insurance", I would have to work a lot longer.


FWIW, this sounds eminently reasonable and is the same basic approach I am planning.

Well, except for the vegan part. I am happy it works for you, but I like cheese and fish too much to go that way.

--B+C

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Author: FoolMeOnce Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2511 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/4/2004 4:37 PM
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decath writes:

On the REHP board, I get blasted everytime I post this strategy, usually by people with horrific health. If I planned on $1000 per month "do everything health insurance", I would have to work a lot longer.

In the last few years my wife was diagnosed with an inherited liver disorder which at some point may require her to have a transplant. I was diagnosed with an inherited genetic disorder which eventially will rob me of a major portion of my central vision. I have $3000 laser treatments on my retinas several times a year. My wife is currently participating in a clinical trial.

A healthy vegan lifestyle would not have prevented either condition from occurring. A healthy lifestyle is good, but it guarantees nothing. Perhaps you would refer to us as having "horrific" health. But, the day before we were diagnosed, we (like you) considered ourselves perfectly healthy. Good luck with your "plan". You may need it.

Regards,
FMO

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Author: 2old4bs Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2529 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/7/2004 3:19 PM
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With healthy vegan lifestyles for both me and my wife, I don't expect to go to the doctor or hospital except for accidents.

On the REHP board, I get blasted everytime I post this strategy, usually by people with horrific health.


You aren't really saying that health, or lack of it, is 100% directly correlated with lifestyle, are you? That is a false assumption.

I don't expect to go to the doctor or hospital except for accidents.

What about check-ups, and lab costs for screening exams? It's a fact that those who regularly have screening exams live longer than those who don't.

Get very high deductible insurance and pay low monthly premiums in 100-200 per month range. Then with the new MSA's here in the US, I plan to have a stash of at least 20k to take care of the non-deductible expenses

I'm glad to hear that you do have a plan!

2old


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Author: 2old4bs Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2530 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/7/2004 3:22 PM
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They are apparently still retired and he posts occasionally on Dory36's board - www.early-retirement.org

I went over there--it's an interesting site. Do you happen to know his posting name? I couldn't identify any of his posts.

2old



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Author: Hyperborea Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2531 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/7/2004 4:21 PM
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They are apparently still retired and he posts occasionally on Dory36's board - www.early-retirement.org
----------

I went over there--it's an interesting site. Do you happen to know his posting name? I couldn't identify any of his posts.


Yeah, the board is interesting. Reasonably low traffic but also reasonably high signal to noise ratio. The founder Dory36 used to post here before the fees. His online retirement calculator is also worth playing with.

Billy Kaderli posts on that board as Billy.

Hyperborea

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2532 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/7/2004 4:32 PM
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2old4bs:
You aren't really saying that health, or lack of it, is 100% directly correlated with lifestyle, are you? That is a false assumption.

Maybe not 100% but how about 95%! <g> If you are refering to genetics, then that may have some influence. However, I think it has more to do with the fact that people tend to eat and live like their parents did so they often end up with many of the same diseases. The evidence either way is inconclusive. However, I've taken what most would seem like an extreme lifestyle diet choice and eat mostly raw fruits and veggies. Some cooked food and on weekends some lean meat and wine for a treat. I heavily supplement with carrot and barley grass juice.

What about check-ups, and lab costs for screening exams? It's a fact that those who regularly have screening exams live longer than those who don't.

I currently get a dental check-up. I'm 42 now and will probably start getting regular check-ups in the near future just to be smart.


I'm glad to hear that you do have a plan!


I'm not a fool! However, I do believe my best laid health plan is to avoid white sugar, white flour, white salt, meat, dairy & caffeine. The high-deductible insurance and MSA will be the secondary defense.

Anybody else interested in living a long quality life can go to www.hacres.com and read their articles and many testimonies. There are many other web sites that promote veganism. This is my favorite because of all the free info they give you without the profit motive.

Thanks to my excellant health, I plan on competing in masters' track & field and eventually at the masters decathlon world championships. 10 years ago, that would have been out of the question because of all the decathlon and other sports injuries suffered in my youth. After eating the above diet for 6 months, every ailment and joint problem was in the past, including arthritus and severe knee cartiledge deteriation from an old football injury.

Tomorrow evening, I'll be competing in the 400 meter hurdles for the 1st time in 20 years at a local meet. My son will be running as well but has no stomach for long sprints like the 400. He'll be high jumping and running the 100.


decath


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Author: Hyperborea Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2533 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/7/2004 4:40 PM
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decath:
On the REHP board, I get blasted everytime I post this strategy, usually by people with horrific health. If I planned on $1000 per month "do everything health insurance", I would have to work a lot longer.
---------

FMO:
In the last few years my wife was diagnosed with an inherited liver disorder which at some point may require her to have a transplant. I was diagnosed with an inherited genetic disorder which eventially will rob me of a major portion of my central vision. I have $3000 laser treatments on my retinas several times a year. My wife is currently participating in a clinical trial.


It's a combination of minimizing expected cost and ensuring that the worst case situation won't break you financially. If you know that you will continually run over the limits then it probably makes sense to buy the full coverage insurance.

In pricing out some insurance for myself (priced to the age I think I will be when I retire and with limits on my stay in the US it comes to ~$2,200 / year for my wife and I with a $2,500 deductible and a $5M lifetime cap. If I hit the max that would be $7,200 / year. Most years will likely be much less - say perhaps $3K to cover the insurance, two physicals, two dental visits and an couple of minor maladies (ear infection, etc.). This is all non-US though and that seriously drops the price of the insurance and the treatment.

If one was retiring with the "standard" $1M => $40K/year then even in a "worst" case scenario you would have plenty of flexibility to accomodate the unlikely but possible worst years.

Hyperborea

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Author: 2old4bs Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2534 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/7/2004 5:02 PM
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Thanks to my excellant health, I plan on competing in masters' track & field and eventually at the masters decathlon world championships. 10 years ago, that would have been out of the question because of all the decathlon and other sports injuries suffered in my youth. After eating the above diet for 6 months, every ailment and joint problem was in the past, including arthritus and severe knee cartiledge deteriation from an old football injury.

Sounds like you're doing great! Congratulations. I ate a diet very similar to yours, with the exception of dairy and fish, for about two years when I was in my 20s on the recommendation of a holistic chiropractor. He recommended it to combat stress. I didn't reallly notice any difference, but then, I was in my 20s! <VBG> A very DF of mine is a vegetarian, not vegan. I eat at a vegetarian restaurant at least twice a week, but the rest of the week I do eat lean meats along with veggies.

Along with a good diet, I think the second most important variable is exercise, and I believe that if you've been active throughout your adult years, you are much more likely to be in better health in your later ones.

At your age I was doing speed-walking and body-building. Twelve years later, after several illnesses and surgeries, it is not so easy. (Although it always amazes me that my docs think I am in great health compared to the rest of their patients my age, who are apparently taking blood pressure, cholesterol, and other medications. I am lucky that all of that is OK for me.)

Tomorrow evening, I'll be competing in the 400 meter hurdles for the 1st time in 20 years at a local meet...

Run On!!!! Ya gotta' do it while you can!

Good luck,

2old


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Author: nmckay Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2537 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/8/2004 9:42 AM
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decath,

I was right with ya till white salt. Please elaborate.

Salt is salt. I personally don't like the iodine stuff and prefer kosher salt, but it's pretty much just a chemical that cells need to maintain normal function.

Fleur de Sel is pretty fancy and expensive, but any chemist will tell you that the trace amounts of minerals are not enough to have any health affects.

One can get too much salt, but exercise and sweating and drinking water typically take care of that. So fill us in.

nmckay

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2539 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 9:14 AM
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nmckay:
I was right with ya till white salt. Please elaborate.

Salt is salt. I personally don't like the iodine stuff and prefer kosher salt, but it's pretty much just a chemical that cells need to maintain normal function.

Fleur de Sel is pretty fancy and expensive, but any chemist will tell you that the trace amounts of minerals are not enough to have any health affects.

One can get too much salt, but exercise and sweating and drinking water typically take care of that. So fill us in.


Salt is not really a biggy in my diet. Some people I know seem to be addicted to it like I used to be addicted to heavily sugared products. So at least in my case, I have to work to avoid white sugar products. Salt is not a temptation for me.

I do not salt my food. I eat it naturally or seasoned with other herbs such as cylantro. Plus, I was diagnosed with slightly high blood pressure back in my pre-vegan days so that deadens any other desire to eat salty foods.

You can probably get away with supplementing with a little salt here and there if you eat right in other areas and excercise regularly.

You can also fudge a little on any one of the 6 problem foods that I mentioned occasionally. The problem is that we have made all 6 of them mainstays in are diet and it shows in the high rates of heart disease, cancer and diabetes.

decath

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Author: Rocannon Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2540 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 9:41 AM
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decath,

The problem is that we have made all 6 of them mainstays in are diet and it shows in the high rates of heart disease, cancer and diabetes.

I recognize that diet is supposed to be implicated in these diseases... still, in your view, what will people die of when they follow an ideal diet? What gets you in the end?

You referred to the http://www.hacres.com website... do you use their products as well (BarleyMax, for example)? I've tried the "Ezekial 4:9" cereal (not at hacres) which is made from sprouted grains, it's not delicious but it's edible. I don't know whether I would make that a regular part of my diet, since I already enjoy oatmeal quite a lot.

You said you "eat mostly raw fruits and veggies"... do you avoid grains, then? I'm not really clear on why people avoid grains. I've heard something about an immune system response (e.g. severe cases like celiac disease). Is this something which is proven for the general population, though? And how do you know that you have the problem? Why avoid grains, which can be very nutritious and add fiber to your diet, if you don't know for sure that it's causing a problem?

Rocannon

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2541 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 10:12 AM
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Rocannon:
You referred to the http://www.hacres.com website... do you use their products as well (BarleyMax, for example)? I've tried the "Ezekial 4:9" cereal (not at hacres) which is made from sprouted grains, it's not delicious but it's edible. I don't know whether I would make that a regular part of my diet, since I already enjoy oatmeal quite a lot.


The only product of theirs that I do use is the BarleyMax. I've been trying it for about 4 months. Before that, I used Barley Green by AIM corporation for many years. I take a teaspoon 2 or 3 times a day and mix it with distilled water.

You said you "eat mostly raw fruits and veggies"... do you avoid grains, then? I'm not really clear on why people avoid grains. I've heard something about an immune system response (e.g. severe cases like celiac disease). Is this something which is proven for the general population, though? And how do you know that you have the problem? Why avoid grains, which can be very nutritious and add fiber to your diet, if you don't know for sure that it's causing a problem?


Sorry! I forgot to mention that I do eat grains a couple times a week. I buy organic outmeal or wheat and especially like to eat it before an athletic competition. Seems to give me a good deal more energy than other foods like wheat or alfafa pasta. Sometimes I eat cold cerial (natural and artificial sugar free) with rice or soy milk.

I've never had a problem with any kind of grain. I've tried others like millet or barley but prefer oats and wheat. I do have a reaction from dairy products which started my natural/raw foods journey about 12 years ago. My son had miserable health from the ages of 3 - 7 until we found out that dairy was causing all of his problems. We went off dairy as a family and my acne went a way (I was 30 at the time) and my severe "air born" allergies became manageable without the aid of antegen shots. Further diet changes gradually eliminated all my allergy problems over the course of about 2 years.

decath

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2542 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 10:25 AM
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Rocannon:
I recognize that diet is supposed to be implicated in these diseases... still, in your view, what will people die of when they follow an ideal diet? What gets you in the end?


Good question that I can only speculate on. After reading and researching natural foods and health for the past 12 years, I envision dying in the age range of 100 - 120 in my sleep. <grin>

I'm intrigued by testimonies of 90 year-old vegans who die of scuba diving accidents. That is probably how I will end up going. Doing something aggressive like parachute jumping or rock climbing and making a critical mistake. <grin>

decath

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2543 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 10:32 AM
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Rocannon:
I recognize that diet is supposed to be implicated in these diseases... still, in your view, what will people die of when they follow an ideal diet? What gets you in the end?

I find it an interesting combination with my desire to FIRE and live a long quality life. Imagine RE at the age of 50 and still having 50 years of quality, healthy life left. Imagine what you could accomplish in 50 years without the burden of having to provide an income from work. Imagine the lives you could touch.

If the human body is really designed to live 120 years as some scientists speculate and I hope to be true, then I believe a mostly raw fruit & veggie diet to be the key ingredient to obtaining that end.

decath


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Author: Rocannon Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2544 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 11:51 AM
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decath,

Sorry! I forgot to mention that I do eat grains a couple times a week.

Ok, thanks for the response. I thought maybe you were one of those extreme vegans (fruitarians or whatever) and I wanted to question you on it... never quite understood how/if that really works.

You mentioned something about arthritis going away... I'd be curious to hear the story on that, if you will.

Rocannon

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Author: Rocannon Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2545 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 12:10 PM
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decath,

I envision dying in the age range of 100 - 120 in my sleep.

So many people seem to think (or hope) they'll die in their sleep, and that may indeed happen. But it's the process of dying, which can take many months or years, which scares me. I have seen it happen to my father, and I'm seeing my mother's condition worsen, and I know I would do quite a lot for it to end up differently for me. But I wonder if it's possible.

I have a good friend who has eaten organic foods and had a pretty healthy diet for many many years. But she still got breast cancer (around the age of 70). She's doing ok now.... She also has suffered from arthritis starting at the age of 40 or so. She's not a vegan, so who knows what might have happened if she'd gone that route...

Do you think becoming a vegan later in life will undo any possible damage from all the earlier years of eating loads of unhealthy crap? I know as a child I had a reasonably healthy diet - for those times. But I sure did consume my fair share of soda and candy, and meat was a staple of our diet. I cut back on meat consumption quite a lot over 10 years ago, though I do eat some on the infrequent occasions that I go out to dinner, if something on the menu is very tempting! Aside from that, my diet is not at all sterling. I do still eat cookies and so on. I try to keep it reasonable, but my diet is not at all "pure."

You seem to be convinced, but I don't think there are any conclusive studies that show pure vegetarianism is the way to go. For every claim made, you see an opposite claim from the other camp... hard to uncover the truth.

Doing something aggressive like parachute jumping or rock climbing and making a critical mistake.

Well, I like to think that I will go this way myself. I hope I have the courage to do it. As people become more physically disabled, they do tend to cut back on risky activities. At the age of 40, I already have some little bit of knee trouble, and I don't think that bodes well for a vigorous old age. OTOH if I die in a BASE-jumping accident at the age of 60, that wouldn't be so bad compared to many years of gradual decline in a nursing home in my 70s. That's just me.

Rocannon

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2546 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 12:10 PM
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Rocannon:
You mentioned something about arthritis going away... I'd be curious to hear the story on that, if you will.


I've been an avid athlete since the age of 5 when my dad 1st signed me up to play little league. I basically lived for sports and spent all my free time developing my skills in a variety of athletic disciplines - baseball, basketball, football, track & field & tennis in my youth. As a young adult, I pursued and tried many other sports such as racketball, taekwondo, biking, distance running, weight lifting etc..

All the ball sports required a lot of throwing. The addition of training for the decathlon in college added the stress of throwing the shot, discus and javelin on a daily basis. After those years had passed and by the time I hit 30, I started feeling pains in my right arm joints. The docs said it was early signs of arthritus and very common for athletes to start getting those problems early on. Mine were probably a result of the heavy object throwing (16 lb shot and 5 lb discus).

After going on a complete vegan diet (with carrot and barley grass juice), I noticed that all the pain left somewhere around the 3rd month. After the 6th month, my chronic knee pain and swelling disappeared. It is hard to say which specific diet change, food elimination or food addition caused the arthritus to go a way. For a one year period, I was 100% pure and drank lots of carrot and barley grass juice every day to speed up the heeling process. I was also drinking only distilled water or water purified by reverse osmosis.

As I mentioned earlier, I no longer follow a 100% vegan diet but would say that I'm in the 90-95% range. Its hard to do it when the rest of your family, with kids, won't do it with you. I'm hoping to go 100% again when I FIRE.

decath

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Author: Rocannon Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2547 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 12:27 PM
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decath,

After going on a complete vegan diet (with carrot and barley grass juice), I noticed that all the pain left somewhere around the 3rd month.

Thanks for posting your story.

That is certainly interesting to me, because I have a similar situation. Not that I'm an athlete... but I do enjoy backpacking and hiking. A couple years ago one of my knees started giving me trouble. The doctor said it was the beginning of arthritis, and said the problem was most likely that cartilage in my knee was getting progressively messed up, probably from some initial injury, and that it would most likely get worse. Very discouraging.

The suggestions were to do physical therapy, get orthotics, and take glucosamine/chondroitin. Now the problem seems to have improved, but I don't think it's gone. I tend to stay away from activities that might bother it... long hikes, very heavy workouts.

It's rather tempting to try your diet and see if my problem really goes away after a few months!

Have you posted your diet anywhere? What do you do to ensure sufficient protein intake? Aren't there some issues with veganism as to B-vitamin deficiencies? Do you take any supplements or make an effort to get specific items in your diet on a regular basis, aside from the carrot and barley grass juice?

Rocannon

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2548 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 12:29 PM
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Rocannon:
Do you think becoming a vegan later in life will undo any possible damage from all the earlier years of eating loads of unhealthy crap? I know as a child I had a reasonably healthy diet - for those times. But I sure did consume my fair share of soda and candy, and meat was a staple of our diet. I cut back on meat consumption quite a lot over 10 years ago, though I do eat some on the infrequent occasions that I go out to dinner, if something on the menu is very tempting! Aside from that, my diet is not at all sterling. I do still eat cookies and so on. I try to keep it reasonable, but my diet is not at all "pure."

I think it does. There are many testimonies to that effect. I've heard that it takes about 7 years for every cell in your body to be replaced. SO if your eating perfect food, then hopefully each new cell is perfect as well.

You seem to be convinced, but I don't think there are any conclusive studies that show pure vegetarianism is the way to go. For every claim made, you see an opposite claim from the other camp... hard to uncover the truth.

I'm convinced enough to keep on keeping on as I'm now doing. I can't guarantee anything and I may still get cancer and die early. However, I believe I've decreased the odds considerbly at worse. Also, I would not trade the last 12 years I've had of unbelievable health and the ability to compete once again.

The absense of "air born" allergies was worth it in and of itself. Here in Texas, you have two seasons where the weather is decent to go outside and recreate, fall and spring when I suffered the most. The summers are blisteringly hot and the winters are not that cold but they are always wet. The allergies I had started in march and ended in June. Then they would pick up in September and end after the 1st freeze. I had to get shots just to live a normal life indoors. Any outdoor activity made me miserable after 1 hour of exposure, even with shots. If it was windy, I carried around drugs and ice packs (for my eyes). I would literally want to rub my eyes out of my sockets because they itched so bad.

So from that perspective, I've already won! I was tough the 1st couple of weeks to get over my cravings but then they were gone. I personally suspect I will live a long healthy life by the testimonies given by others. I also believe that a key ingredient is not just the organic fruits and veggies but also the dense nutriets I get from barley grass and carrot juice.


Doing something aggressive like parachute jumping or rock climbing and making a critical mistake.

Well, I like to think that I will go this way myself. I hope I have the courage to do it. As people become more physically disabled, they do tend to cut back on risky activities. At the age of 40, I already have some little bit of knee trouble, and I don't think that bodes well for a vigorous old age. OTOH if I die in a BASE-jumping accident at the age of 60, that wouldn't be so bad compared to many years of gradual decline in a nursing home in my 70s. That's just me.



You have the right idea. Play hard, have fun, expect the best but plan for the worst. When you compete in sports, you like to take every advantage you can get within the rules like good equipment, fitness etc.. In the game of life, I want to give myself every advantage I can and I believe the vegan diet/lifestyle gives that to you. I have an open mind so if a better approach presents itself, I'll look into it. As you said earlier, much of the evidence is inconclusive. Nutritional science is in the baby stage compared to other scientific disciplines. We probably still have much to learn.

I think the bottom line is eating food as natural as possible the way God intended it. The processing we've done since the 50's has proven to be unhealthy and fattening.

decath


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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2549 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 12:45 PM
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Rocannon:
It's rather tempting to try your diet and see if my problem really goes away after a few months!

Have you posted your diet anywhere? What do you do to ensure sufficient protein intake? Aren't there some issues with veganism as to B-vitamin deficiencies? Do you take any supplements or make an effort to get specific items in your diet on a regular basis, aside from the carrot and barley grass juice?


For the B-vitamins, I usually take 4-6 tablets a day of a multivitamin from Shaklee Co. every day. I don't know if that is the best product but it is the one I've stuck with for almost 10 years now. It is organic and made from live foods, not the chemical tar-based junk in the typical grocery store.

Here is a typical day of my diet.

7am: 8 oz fresh carrot juice (I get up at 5:30 and juice 24 oz, 16 for me and 8 for my wife)
8am: 1 loaded teaspoon of barley grass juice (BarleyMax) with distilled water
9am: fruit (usually whatever is in season as much as I want. This is my official breakfast)
10am: 8 oz carrot juice
11am: barley grass juice
1pm: I come back from my lunch work-out and drink a glass of soy protein
2pm: My lunch which is always a raw veggie salad. It may have almonds or sunflower seeds generously sprinkled on it. I like a whole avacoda as the desert.
4pm: If hungry, I'll eat a piece of fruit.
5pm: more barley green.
7pm: dinner (salad, cooked veggies, home made wheat bread, alfalfa or wheat pasta, vegan mexican food dishes that my wife cooks in a southwestern flare) I always have a salad or at least some raw veggies with our cooked food veggies.
I usually don't eat again but if I get hungry, I'll drink a glass of soy protein with water.


As you can see, I eat all day long and I take a lot of stuff to work with me. It may seem combersome but I'm used to it now.

The weekends, I eat less often because I'm busy doing kid things. On Saturday and Sunday's, we usually grill some lean chicken, beef or fish outside. Never pork. I try to avoid unkosher animals(I'm not Jewish but consider unkosher animals gross). I like some red wine on the weekends.


decath

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Author: Rocannon Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2550 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 1:02 PM
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decath,

Thanks for all your responses!

Interesting sample diet... it's very tempting to try something similar. This leads me to another question... doesn't eating all day long like that impact your dental health? I've read that a diet high in fiber can lead to loss of tooth enamel, which could lead to more cavities. Do you brush after every meal?

Rocannon

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2551 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 3:09 PM
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Rocannon:
Interesting sample diet... it's very tempting to try something similar. This leads me to another question... doesn't eating all day long like that impact your dental health? I've read that a diet high in fiber can lead to loss of tooth enamel, which could lead to more cavities. Do you brush after every meal?


I had not heard that! I do brush in the morning and evening before bed.

Do you know how fiber can cause enamel loss?

decath

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Author: Hyperborea Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2552 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 4:21 PM
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Do you know how fiber can cause enamel loss?

Not the OP but I would guess it would be abrasion.

Hyperborea

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Author: VesperLynd Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2553 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 4:22 PM
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decath -

What are the nutritional benefits of the barley grass juice?

Is the carrot juice for antioxidants?


Thanks, VL



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Author: Rocannon Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2554 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 5:08 PM
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decath,

I had not heard that! I do brush in the morning and evening before bed.

Do you know how fiber can cause enamel loss?


No. When I think about it, I'm pretty sure my dentist told me this last time I was there. But it's very vague in my mind... maybe I am mistaken. I will try to remember to ask him about it next time I am there. I did a google but can't find any references. There are references which say things like brushing your teeth within an hour of eating acidic foods can lead to the enamel eroding. I'd heard that one before... It could be that eating lots of fiber has a similar cause.

Rocannon

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2555 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/9/2004 5:10 PM
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VesperLyn:
What are the nutritional benefits of the barley grass juice?

Is the carrot juice for antioxidants?


Antioxidants in both cases! Plus anything else that modern science has not identified yet in plant sources.

The reasoning behind getting the juice out of the plant is the same principle that food supplement manufacturers use to get vitamins and minerals in pill form. To get dense nutrients to the recipient in case he/she misses them in the normal daily food intake.

But getting the dense nutrition directly from the plant source, is a step ahead of buying it after sitting on a shelf for some time. If you drink it on an empty stomach, the liquid digests quickly, going directly to the cell level of the body for maximum benefit. Carrot juice is highly nutritious and tastes good to. If you have never tried it, you may be surprised how sweet it is. Well, that is if you buy organic carrots. I buy the ones from Whole Foods that are shipped from California. The few times I bought grocery store carrots, I have been dissapointed in their taste and in fact, repulsed in some instances. You can buy a 50 lb bag of carrots once per month and juice about 16 oz a day, 8 oz for you and 8 for your spouse. Depending on the season, it costs from $30 - 45 for the 50 lb bag.

In the case of the barley green powder, it is manufactured by a cold process (I don't remember exactly how it is done) with low heat to keep the nutrients intact. They also get the juice from young barley leaves as they have determined that they contain the highest concentration of nutrients. It is an aquired taste that I still don't particularly enjoy but I don't dislike it. I drink it for my health. I also drink it before I excercise doing either cardio or weights. It gives me a natural rush of energy.

decath

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Author: Rocannon Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2556 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/10/2004 8:01 AM
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decath,

The few times I bought grocery store carrots, I have been dissapointed in their taste and in fact, repulsed in some instances.

I agree with you there! I love organic carrot juice, delicious. But I have sometimes bought regular bunches of large carrots from the store and been very disappointed with the taste - sometimes there's almost a kerosene-like taste, hard to describe except that it's awful. I've always wondered what causes that, and if it's something good or bad.

Rocannon

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Author: ItGoesToEleven Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2557 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/10/2004 8:53 AM
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decath wrote, "which started my natural/raw foods journey about 12 years ago"

First, thanks for sharing.

I'm about 2 years into a similar journey. We're eating all natural/mostly raw with occaisional compromise usually driven by the kids(whom we suspect love their grandpa because he serves them meat)-).

I enjoyed and thoroughly reviewed the Hacres link. Care to share any additional resources that you found to be most beneficial?

Regards, 11

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Author: mazske Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2558 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/10/2004 9:37 AM
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drank lots of carrot and barley grass juice

decath,

Are you buying these or do you make them?

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2559 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/10/2004 10:27 AM
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ItGoesToEleven:
I enjoyed and thoroughly reviewed the Hacres link. Care to share any additional resources that you found to be most beneficial?


I could not find an internet link to "Fit for Life" by Harvey Diamond except for his sites that promote his books and products.

I found his original book in the library "Fit for Life" about 10 years ago and really enjoyed it. He promoted a vegan like diet and introduced the topic of "food combining" to me for the 1st time. Basically saying that many of the over-weight problems people have are because they eat to many food groups at one time, combining starchs with acids (carbos and meats).

Also, combining fruit with anything causes problems because the sugars (even from fresh fruit) will break-down and ferment in the stomach while the other foods are trying to digest causing gas and prolonged digestion.

We've been taught since childhood to eat all the foods from the 4 basic food groups, not realizing that mixing them all together creates digestive problems. Although I don't agree that the Adkins diet is healthy, it uses the same principle by eliminated carbs (starchs) from the diet. Just eating meat, fat and an occasional veggie will help you to lose weight because you are not mixing a typical white flour bread product with it.

Most of my reading was done before I had internet access 12 years ago. I read material from Dr. Joel Robbins, a vegan advocate.

I also read through a book called "A diet for a new planet" that was pretty good. I've heard it referenced several times by other vegan authors. You can see it at the link: http://maxpages.com/truemania/Diet_For_a_New_Planet but you get tons of pop up adds. Very irritating. Turn on pop-up-stopper if you have it.

decath

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2560 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/10/2004 10:30 AM
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maske:

Are you buying these or do you make them?


Carrots are bought, usually from Whole Foods Market, and juiced by yours truly every morning before heading off to work.

The Barley grass juice is bought in powder form and mixed with purified or distilled water. You can buy carrot powder and other root veggie powders (beets) the same way if you don't want to take the time to juice. It is time consuming and takes about 15 minutes each morning to juice and clean-up.

decath

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Author: whyohwhyoh Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2561 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/12/2004 2:15 AM
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I smoke asbestos...

--
whyohwhyoh

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2564 of 5069
Subject: Re: Nest Egg Principle Date: 6/16/2004 3:59 PM
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Sorry, but all I can think of when you talk about "barley juice" is something definately best not cosumed in the early morning...

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