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Author: PolymerMom Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 886198  
Subject: New Dishwasher Arrives in the Morning! Date: 12/13/2012 6:22 PM
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Well, we went to Lowe's. The model we wanted wouldn't arrive for 14 days...

In the middle of Lowe's, MDH called Slyman Brothers, another local company. Yes, they had the KitchenAid we wanted. Yes, it was on special. Yes, they could deliver it tomorrow morning. MDH gave them our address, phone and a credit card numbers. Done!

PM

----

Model search history:

We started out looking for a mid-priced Bosch, since Consumer's Reports rated them very highly. Then we found out that European models aren't as deep as US models (22.5 inches vs. 24.5 inches). To cope with this, Bosch turned one of the US-normal rows 90 degrees and made two rows out of it. One of the resulting rows had tines spaced about .5 to .75 inches apart. If your salad plates have any convexity at all it's not going to work very well.

So we moved down the CR list to KitchenAid. It's a little noisier (48 dB vs 46 dB), not quite as energy efficient but got almost as good a rating (79 vs. 81) as the Bosches. It has the familiar cross-wise parallel rows of tines.
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Author: geodebt Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869581 of 886198
Subject: Re: New Dishwasher Arrives in the Morning! Date: 12/14/2012 8:54 AM
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FYI, tip about Bosches that we learned while conducting our search, they don't have a heating element in them so the temperature of the wash is dependent on how high you keep your hot water heater.

That is how they get by with being more efficient, but if you have to keep your hot water heater up all the time just to get the dishes clean.. not really saving anything.

=== At least this was the case with the models we viewed at our local appliance mart/Lowes, etc about 2 years ago.

Nicole

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Author: PolymerMom Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869583 of 886198
Subject: Re: New Dishwasher Arrives in the Morning! Date: 12/14/2012 11:27 AM
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they don't have a heating element in them so the temperature of the wash is dependent on how high you keep your hot water heater.

That's still true. The Sears salesman pointed out that they don't have a heating element. He warned us not to open the door in the last hour of the cycle because that would let all the heat out and the dishes would take days to dry.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869584 of 886198
Subject: Re: New Dishwasher Arrives in the Morning! Date: 12/14/2012 1:18 PM
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they don't have a heating element in them so the temperature of the wash is dependent on how high you keep your hot water heater.

That's still true. The Sears salesman pointed out that they don't have a heating element. He warned us not to open the door in the last hour of the cycle because that would let all the heat out and the dishes would take days to dry.


I am happy with our Bosch diswasher. We have had it for 3 years.

Regardless of the dishwasher, I have always opened, it and allowed the dishes to finish with an air dry. It doesn't take days for dishes to dry in a rack. It isn't going to take days in a dishwasher.

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Author: swiing One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869585 of 886198
Subject: Re: New Dishwasher Arrives in the Morning! Date: 12/14/2012 2:06 PM
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Bosch dishwashers do heat the water, they have a flow through water heater, they just do not have a heating element for drying the dishes.

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Author: LQu Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869586 of 886198
Subject: Re: New Dishwasher Arrives in the Morning! Date: 12/14/2012 2:13 PM
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The Sears salesman pointed out that they don't have a heating element. He warned us not to open the door in the last hour of the cycle because that would let all the heat out and the dishes would take days to dry.

<head-desk> The Bosch DOES have a water heating element. It has what's called a a flow-thru water heater. It pumps the hot water thru a heating chamber that's under the interior floor of the dishwasher, rather than having an exposed heating coil sitting passively in the bottom of the machine.

There are also some models (not all) that come with an Sani-Rinse option that uses a NSF certified, high-temperature rinse. They use the built-in heating element. It is rated to eliminate 99.999% of certain bacteria. The water has to reach at least 160 degrees for a specified minimum amount of time, IIRC. Bosch, Kenmore, Kitchenaid & Whirlpool have them now, to name a few. Models can be found here: http://www.nsf.org/Certified/ResAppliances/

If the Bosch didn't have a heater, it couldn't offer NSF rated machines, among other things <insert rant about uninformed salespeople>.

http://reviews.cnet.com/dishwashers/?filter=1000036_121027_
(you'll note listings of "flow thru water heater" or "concealed heating element")

Bosch Manual
http://download.sears.com/own/SHE44C_e.pdf
Flow-Through Heaterâ„¢:Heats water to a temperature of up to 161°F.

Condensation Drying: A high temperature final rinse, a low temperature stainless steel tub, and the sheeting action of a rinse agent esult in drying that is hygienic,energy efficient, and economical.


What it DOESN'T have is a heating element within the tub itself. That prevents plastics and other items from being heat-damaged if they fall out of the rack. But is also prevents using a heating element for a drying cycle.

Unlike what another poster mentioned, you don't have to increase the temperature of your home water to use a Bosch. This does, in part, contribute to their more efficient energy rating. If one never uses the drying heater on any machine, maybe that would make s Bosch be not-quite-as-efficient-in-comparison as one expected.

http://dl.owneriq.net/1/198af573-c913-40d8-a2f6-63de48c86f0e...
Hot Water Supply: Bosh recommends that the hot water heater be set to deliver approximately 120° F (49° C) water to the dish-washer. Water that is too hot can cause some detergents to loose effectiveness. Lower water temperatures will increase run times. The hot water supply pressure must be between 5 - 120 psi (0.3 - 8.27bars).

The salesperson was also incorrect about "days" to dry the dishes. I also just open the door. Works just fine. Plates, glasses & cups will be dry within minutes from the steam evaporation if you open it right at the end of the cycle. The plastics don't dry as fast - they need some air time. But hours, not days. Just like in a dishrack. Frankly, I think opening the door is faster than the "Condensation Drying" (see above) Bosch employs. At least for plates & glasses. But maybe that perception is off, as I don't use a Bosch year-round - they're at our vacation/rental properties.

HTH,

Laura
rumor-killer

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869592 of 886198
Subject: Re: New Dishwasher Arrives in the Morning! Date: 12/15/2012 9:31 AM
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That's still true. The Sears salesman pointed out that they don't have a heating element.

The heating element serves two functions.

1) It heats the water to 160 degrees, hot enough for sanitizing, and typically 20-30 degrees hotter than hot water heaters are set (by recommendation, to prevent scalding in showers). Those units "without" a heating element (the circular piece of metal at the bottom of the basin) do it in a sealed chamber underneath. They have a heating element, you just can't see it.

2) It heats the air to dry the dishes after the final rinse cycle, if you choose that setting. It speeds the drying, at some significant energy cost (and danger to plastic items which fall or which are put on the lower rack, which is why you see "top rack only" on some things.) This is pretty unnecessary, dishes will dry just fine by themselves, faster if you open the door a crack after the cycle is complete. This also adds moisture/humidity to the air, which is good in winter, not so good in summer. I don't know if Bosch or other manufacturers which eschew the bottom ring have a substitute for this, but in any event it's an energy waster and unnecessary, in my view.

The heating element is the most common part failure in a dishwasher. It's also (usually) a pretty easy repair, except that it is one of the few things which actually penetrates through the basin (for the electrical connection underneath) so it's a potential leak point for the basin, from which there is usually no recovery. Not having it in the bottom is feature, not a bug.
 


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Author: geodebt Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869599 of 886198
Subject: Re: New Dishwasher Arrives in the Morning! Date: 12/15/2012 4:40 PM
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i stand corrected

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