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Author: sandyleelee Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1976319  
Subject: No, thank you Date: 3/2/2006 10:20 PM
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http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/030206A.shtml

Thursday 02 March 2006
Hon. Pete Hoekstra, Chair
House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
Washington, DC

Dear Congressman Hoekstra:

As a matter of conscience, I am returning the Intelligence Commendation Award medallion given me for "especially commendable service" during my 27-year career in CIA. The issue is torture, which inhabits the same category as rape and slavery - intrinsically evil. I do not wish to be associated, however remotely, with an agency engaged in torture.

. . . If German officials who were ordered to do such things in the 1930s had spoken out early and loudly enough, the German people might have been alerted to the atrocities being perpetrated in their name and tried harder to stop them. When my grandchildren ask, "What did you do, Grandpa, to stop the torture," I want to be able to tell them that I tried to honor my oath, taken both as an Army officer and an intelligence officer, to defend the Constitution of the United States - and that I not only spoke out strongly against the torture, but also sought a symbolic way to dissociate myself from it.

We Americans have become accustomed to letting our institutions do our sinning for us. I abhor the corruption of the CIA in the past several years, believe it to be beyond repair, and do not want my name on any medallion associated with it. Please destroy this one.

Yours truly,
Ray McGovern


You are, sir, nevertheless, a true American hero.

SLL
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Author: deejay7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905303 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 4:21 AM
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Wow, someone with principles!

A very rare commodity in the corridors of power!!!

deejay7

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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905306 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 6:37 AM
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"...You are, sir, nevertheless, a true American hero." SLL
------------

Not really, he's clearly just a partisan and opportunistic hack, making a generalised non-specific and unsubstantiated smear attack.

The military calls it 'fire for effect'.

Leftists call it business as usual. It always get's their knee jerking minions jerking off right on cue.

Let him name names and refer for charges to the U.S. attorneys if he's got anything.

He's got nothing.

I've got five words for this opportunistic scum sucker.


"Don't get stuck on Stupid".


Any New York Times stories on Ray-boy's personal 'revelations' of 'torture' exposed? Not even a peep on any delayed prosecutions for anyone alleged to have been mistreated.

Nada... zip... nothing.

I'm keeping all my decs and awards.

I couldn't be more proud of the orgs, Warriors and heroes I worked with in the community.

Loyal and Patriotic Americans and foreign Nationals that worked tirelessly, overtime and all odd hours of every day of the year, every year selflessly protecting America.



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Author: MasonMcDan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905307 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 6:49 AM
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The military calls it 'fire for effect'.

Shock and Awe, nowadays.

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905355 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 9:32 AM
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Not really, he's clearly just a partisan and opportunistic hack, making a generalised non-specific and unsubstantiated smear attack.

==============

We could argue all day on whether this guy is partisan or not. But opportunistic? I don't see the opportunism.



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Author: DonQijote Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905400 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 10:43 AM
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tgrmn writes:
Not really, he's clearly just a partisan and opportunistic hack, making a generalised non-specific and unsubstantiated smear attack.
========================================

WOW, tgrm. Is there any wrong doing of ours that you WON't defend?

Instead of dismissing it automatically, why not look into it's possible credibility? What if he is correct? Will you still defend the torture actions?


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Author: fox1219 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905409 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 10:50 AM
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<Not really, he's clearly just a partisan and opportunistic hack, making a generalised non-specific and unsubstantiated smear attack.>


http://faculty.schreiner.edu/tomwells/ray_mcgovern_bio.htm

Yoy need to read Ray McGovern's bio before you label him a hack.Funny,for 27 years in the CIA, he is just now speaking out.

The U.S. tortures and that's a fact.Maybe anything short of death is not torture to you.

"In January 2003, when it became clear that that ethic was in serious jeopardy, a handful of intelligence community alumni/ae, including Ray, created Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity. VIPS now includes over 35 former professionals from CIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Department of State's Bureau of Intelligence and Research, Army Intelligence, the FBI, and the National Security Agency. VIPS' first effort (of ten thus far) was a same-day critique of Secretary of State Colin Powell's address to the UN on February 5."

"Ray's duties at CIA included chairing National Intelligence Estimates and preparing the President' Daily Brief (PDB). These, the most authoritative genres of intelligence reporting, have been the focus of press reporting on “weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq and on what the president was told before 9/11. During the mid-eighties, Ray was one of the senior analysts conducting early morning briefings of the PDB one-on-one with the Vice President, the Secretaries of State and Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs."



"At his retirement ceremony, Ray received the Intelligence Commendation Medal and a letter from then-president George H. W. Bush wishing him well in his transition to non-profit work in inner-city Washington. Ray served on the board of Bread for the City from 1989-94, the latter two years as president, before becoming co-director of the Servant Leadership School."

All 35 former professionals cannot be wrong.

If we lose in Iraq,I can't wait to hear you blame everyone except Bush.

Fox





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Author: ekavana186 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905426 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 11:09 AM
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All 35 former professionals cannot be wrong.

But the thousands of present professionals ARE wrong?

Little logic gap here, don't you think?

Ed

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Author: ekavana186 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905431 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 11:14 AM
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A very rare commodity in the corridors of power!!!

You must have missed the fact that in addition to his facts wrong he is not and has not been in the corriders of power since ~1991.

Langley has been known as 'puzzle palace' for quite some time and the inhabiants of the facility are known for their ability to bend the truth for their own purposes. It's nice to know Mr. McGovern is keeping up his skills, I hope Sen. Kerry holds onto McGovern's decoration til he needs it back.

Ed

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Author: deejay7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905593 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 3:16 PM
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Loyal and Patriotic Americans and foreign Nationals that worked tirelessly, overtime and all odd hours of every day of the year, every year selflessly protecting America

I suspect there are thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) of "loyal and patriotic Americans" who are deeply ashamed of the country they were once happy to "selflessly protect"!!!

deejay7

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905651 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 4:58 PM
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I've got five words for this opportunistic scum sucker.

"Don't get stuck on Stupid".

-----

This, from the guy whose TMF personal quote reads...

Personal Quote: Register and vote. Commit unrecognized acts of kindness. Call people you love, friends you've not seen recently. Slow down and let someone in traffic in front of you. How is your personal 'process control' doing? Smell the coffee, breath the fresh air, look around.
http://boards.fool.com/Profile.asp?uid=21962514


Typical Bushie. Say one thing, do the opposite.


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Author: TraderJim3 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905689 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 6:45 PM
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Not really, he's clearly just a partisan and opportunistic hack, making a generalised non-specific and unsubstantiated smear attack.


well, that pretty much does it for me tgrmn

I swear it's comments like this that make me think either

A. It's doppel of a left-leaning poster who re ponds and gets recs.

B. Paid Hack

I've got others but it would get this post pulled and/or me suspended.

Loyal and Patriotic Americans and foreign Nationals that worked tirelessly, overtime and all odd hours of every day of the year, every year selflessly protecting America.

I sure we all know/work with these people but most of us don't need to label it.

BTW your definition of Loyalty may be another's definition of treason.

And vice-versa, of course.

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Author: JoelCairo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 905696 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/3/2006 7:53 PM
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As Robert Welch said to that terrorist and unAmerican Joe McCarthy, "Have you no shame, sir? At long last, have you know shame?"

You and people who think like you are a disgrace to this country. I'm sorry people with your hairtrigger knee-jerk anger could possibly be formal representatives of this nation, in any position of responsibility or authority, so quick to place personal political bias against the greater good and national interest.

Makes my skin crawl to think of it. Ugh!

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Author: frog6 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 907468 of 1976319
Subject: Re: No, thank you Date: 3/8/2006 7:32 AM
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Interesting to note just how the letter was delivered...

Editor's Note: Ray McGovern and 15 others took action today in the halls of Congress. The 16 donned orange jumpsuits similar to those worn by detainees at Guantánamo Bay. They wore gags over their mouths decorated with one word - torture. Not another word needed to be said as they walked the halls of Congress.

No doubt the guy served his time, but as noted elsewhere he's been out of the game since before Desert Storm...and it doesn't appear that he's got access to any real current intel, which likely means he's got what he reads in the open press...

So -- certainly free to express his opinion, but not sure that any greater cache is gained by citing a long-ago association with government.

And yes, for the record, if this were someone touting their record and expressing unabashed support for current efforts, I'd be just as skeptical...

Cheers,

frog6

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