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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 746137  
Subject: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 9:26 AM
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And this is just the beginning. Opponents raised many of these concerns but 0bama rammed it through without any republican votes and with a majority of Americans opposed to it. Some interesting tidbits:

http://wallstreetpit.com/98717-obamacare-begins-to-derail/

1. Unions:

Unions, for example, are starting to realize what many employers have seen coming since the law passed: The legislation will drive up the cost of health insurance, rather than drive it down. Though labor groups enthusiastically backed the Affordable Care Act at the time, the reality of rising costs has driven them to press the Obama administration for government subsidies to union workers. Such subsidies, which the law never envisioned for the employees of small, unionized employers who provide insurance, would drive up the cost of the law.

The unions are belatedly recognizing that without the subsidies, employers will either drop their insurance altogether as costs rise or risk losing business to non-unionized competitors with lower overhead.

The Obama administration thus far has declined to provide the subsidies, but it risks alienating a key Democratic ally if it holds firm. And the unions are unlikely to back down. Union leaders point out that for workers, losing union-negotiated health insurance would undermine one of the central points of joining a union in the first place. (Of course, the central purpose of the new law was to make health insurance available to everyone, union or not, so the only thing unions can try to offer their members is better or cheaper coverage than the rest of us enjoy. Now they want the rest of us to subsidize this for them.)



2. Unintnded Consequence of passing it before knowing what was in it:

The result, as the law’s advocates are finally realizing, is that families that do not qualify for programs like Medicaid may remain uncovered. So much for universal health coverage, unless we further expand government-paid programs like Medicaid and Medicare.


3. Ignoring Human Behavior = Higher Costs:

These problems are only the beginning. Since the law requires insurers to accept practically all applicants regardless of their health, sick people will always seek coverage, while healthy ones will often opt to do without the expense. This phenomenon of “adverse selection,” as actuaries call it, will simply drive insurance premiums still higher, leading even more people to choose to go without coverage and more employers to abandon it, even if doing so triggers penalties.


4. Toothless Penalities, Less Compensation for Workers, and Reduced Hiring and Worker's Hours:

As I have written before, the law’s penalties for individuals who choose to go without coverage are effectively toothless. For many people it will just make good economic sense, at least in the short term, to risk the penalty.

Employers, like individuals, will face penalties under the new law for failing to provide coverage – but only employers with more than 50 full-time employees. We are already hearing of instances in which employers are limiting hiring or reducing employees’ hours to avoid the mandate. And even when employers decide to shoulder ever-rising insurance costs, those same employers will have less money for other forms of compensation. It’s a trade-off many employees are beginning to notice. Professor Nicole Huberfeld of the University of Kentucky told The New York Times, “Many Americans believe [health insurance] is something they get free. But employers pay lower wages because they provide insurance.”



5. Summary:

As Americans prepare for the full force of the Affordable Care Act to take effect next year, many are only now beginning to realize how profoundly wrong the “affordable” part of the name will prove. Wishful thinking was enough to get the law passed in 2010, but it won’t change the reality when the law takes effect in 2014.

This is just the tip of the iceberg and why we can't trust liberals and democrats to run the country. Socialism must be defeated.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.
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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670672 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 9:35 AM
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http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/02/07/obamac...

When Obama took to the stump for health care reform, one promise came through loud and clear: “If you like your insurance, you can keep it.” That promise is officially about to be broken, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Millions of employees will soon be dropped from health insurance coverage as new provisions of the law go into effect. NBC reports:

About 8 million people who would have been insured by their employers will probably lose their coverage because of tax changes, the CBO [Congressional Budget Office] projects.

[The fiscal cliff deal] takes away some of the tax breaks that employers get for providing health insurance to workers and their families. The change “will lead to a greater reduction in such coverage and higher enrollment in insurance exchanges than previously estimated by CBO,” the report reads.


The CBO also projected that 5 million fewer people will gain health insurance coverage over the next decade than originally expected.
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It's a complete disaster, and i can't understand why governors like Kasich and Brewer are being enticed by the medicaid expansion being Federally paid for a few years. They should both be tasered. This will not end well.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670686 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 10:43 AM
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And this is just the beginning. Opponents raised many of these concerns but 0bama rammed it through without any republican votes and with a majority of Americans opposed to it. Some interesting tidbits:
____________________________

I just wanted to take a moment at this point and defend most of the Democrats

Had they taken the effort to actually do their jobs and read and understand a bill that would transform the country I am sure that a great many of them would not have voted for it.

So for you Dems out there, realize many of us know you really didn't want all this bad stuff. You are just so lazy and morally corrupt with a large side of brutally intellectually deficient that you sign onto and back garbage that is unimaginably bad.

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Author: straitarrow Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670689 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:16 AM
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"When Obama took to the stump for health care reform, one promise came through loud and clear: “If you like your insurance, you can keep it.” That promise is officially about to be broken, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Millions of employees will soon be dropped from health insurance coverage as new provisions of the law go into effect." 2828

How can a Democracy *work* when the president repeatedly lies and his word cannot be trusted?

So sad !

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670692 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:33 AM
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How can a Democracy *work* when the president repeatedly lies and his word cannot be trusted?

So sad !
_______________________

A Democracy can work just fine under those circumstances

When you have a majority of the information sources for the nation, refusing to air the fact that he is a serial liar and in fact making absurd defenses that he is in fact not lying! Then? Well then you are screwed.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670697 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:48 AM
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Speaking of headlines...

~ HA HA! Ohio Election Official: 'I Voted Twice for Obama'...

~ POLL: Obama's approval rating collapses; 46%...

~ Will 'focus' on job creation...

~ SURVEY: Young Adults Are Most Stressed Generation...

~ IRS budget woes, shrinking staff threaten to derail agency...

~ Travelers pass through TSA security with utility bills, COSTCO cards as ID...

I think we should fire the Chief Executive Officer of our nation.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670698 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:58 AM
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So for you Dems out there, realize many of us know you really didn't want all this bad stuff.

The more hard line the Republican candidates religious agenda, the more seats the Democrats have won. If there were more moderate Republican candidates, there would not have been a Democratic super majority.

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Author: TMBFAverageJoe Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670699 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:07 PM
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Twisted scriptures of he Savior:

"For 0bama so loved the poor, he created millions more."

~aj

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670700 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:16 PM
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"For 0bama so loved the poor, he created millions more."

All that matters is that he says, like all good liberals, that he really cares about the poor.

The road to hell is paved by "caring" liberals.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670702 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:19 PM
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The more hard line the Republican candidates religious agenda, the more seats the Democrats have won.

Republicans should definitely remove all traces of their religion from their public life. They (and all of us) have a hard enough time following religious principles in private life.

Republicans have no more right to impose their religious agenda (whatever that may be) on the citizenry than (say) Scientology does.

Besides, American culture is declining, and will continue to do so, no matter what Republicans say or do. Republicans should stick to their main agenda--limited government and fiscal responsibility--and stop trying to herd cats by imposing their religious principles on those who want nothing to do with them.

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670709 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:37 PM
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I think we should fire the Chief Executive Officer of our nation.


CC


Never going to happen unless the MSM is ordered to turn on him. They called Reagan the Teflon president. Obama has taken that title.

Mike

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670710 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:40 PM
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i can't understand why governors like Kasich and Brewer

2828


Easy to understand. Being an elected politician beats working for living. They want to get re-elected to keep enjoying the perks of public office. Many Republicans are politicians who had to settle for being Republican because the Democrat politician slots were all filled.

Mike

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670711 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:42 PM
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http://old.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/bishopStatement.htm...

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Author: TMBFAverageJoe Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670712 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:43 PM
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"They called Reagan the Teflon president. Obama has taken that title."

Reagan earned the title. Obama stole it.

~aj

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670716 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:51 PM
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"They called Reagan the Teflon president. Obama has taken that title."

Reagan earned the title. Obama stole it.

~aj
___________________________

Let's be serious here, when the press is cleaning you up 24/7 you do not need to be Teflon

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Author: bighairymike Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670717 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:52 PM
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Republicans should definitely remove all traces of their religion from their public life. They (and all of us) have a hard enough time following religious principles in private life.

Republicans have no more right to impose their religious agenda (whatever that may be) on the citizenry than (say) Scientology does.

Besides, American culture is declining, and will continue to do so, no matter what Republicans say or do. Republicans should stick to their main agenda--limited government and fiscal responsibility--and stop trying to herd cats by imposing their religious principles on those who want nothing to do with them. - CC


----------------

Abso-friggin-lutely.

Why can't the repubs get this? It is just so obvious. And even those who feel government should and can fix our morality should be smart enough to realize that if we collapse fiscally, then there will be no opportunity to do any social engineering. First things first.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670718 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:55 PM
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"They called Reagan the Teflon president. Obama has taken that title."

Reagan earned the title. Obama stole it.


Reagan was well-liked by both democrats and republicans and was a man of substance, unlike Clinton and 0bama. Reagan's character prevented anything untrue about him from sticking, i.e., the Teflon President. Some things should stick and when slicksters like bite my lower lip and nose in the air don't have to account for their bad behavior and bankrupt leadership, it shouldn't be called Teflon. In their case it's because they are covered in cooking oil and they slither and slip away from the truth. If it doesn't stick, then the dude is slick. And slimy.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670720 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:57 PM
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Abso-friggin-lutely.

Why can't the repubs get this? It is just so obvious. And even those who feel government should and can fix our morality should be smart enough to realize that if we collapse fiscally, then there will be no opportunity to do any social engineering. First things first.
________________________________

No first Republicans have to get rid of the source of all evil

They must expel the Tea Party the folks who espouse essentially all the Republicans should be and don't give a fig about things like religion

THey gotta go!

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Author: bighairymike Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670721 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 12:58 PM
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I think we should fire the Chief Executive Officer of our nation.


CC

Never going to happen unless the MSM is ordered to turn on him. They called Reagan the Teflon president. Obama has taken that title.

Mike


--------------------

Hmmmmm. By whom? Who is the puppetmaster? Who do we direct our appeals to? George Soros? The Chicoms? The Ayatollahs? The Klingons? Don't answer, it's a rhethorical question.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670726 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:04 PM
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No, Josh. There ought not be religion--anyone's religion--in politics, because who's to say which religion ought to be emphasized?

If a faithful person conducts his personal life with integrity, that intgegrity will spill over into everything he does. He will lead by example, but to climb into a bully pulpit (elected office) and espouse the tenets of one's religion is just wrong, in my opinion.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670728 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:07 PM
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And even those who feel government should and can fix our morality should be smart enough to realize that if we collapse fiscally, then there will be no opportunity to do any social engineering. First things first.

Mitt Romney understood this. You didn't see him going around talking about mandatory tithing or storing a year's food supply in one's garage--both Mormon principles--because he clearly understood that nuthin' means nuthin' when the economy collapses.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670736 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:18 PM
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Your participation in both private and public life must be informed by your faith. It's a false dichotomy which you suggest. Morality doesn't get left in a church or synagogue. One's conscience and actions must be informed by what God teaches. We are responsible to act in both the public and private sphere based upon those principles and teachings. That doesn't mean we force others to agree with us. We use persuasion and appeal to morality, such as in opposing abortion, because it is the murder of an innocent human being. We should do everything possible to give a voice to the innocent and defend their right to life. This can't be done by merely preaching to the choir, it requries that we step into the pool and get our feet wet and participate.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670738 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:20 PM
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As I understand the Tea Party, they embrace the following tenets--the so called "Contract from America." (approval rates shown in parentheses below)

~ Identify constitutionality of every new law: Require each bill to identify the specific provision of the Constitution that gives Congress the power to do what the bill does (82.03%).

~ Reject emissions trading: Stop the "cap and trade" administrative approach used to control pollution by providing economic incentives for achieving reductions in the emissions of pollutants. (72.20%)

~ Demand a balanced federal budget: Begin the Constitutional amendment process to require a balanced budget with a two-thirds majority needed for any tax modification. (69.69%)

~ Simplify the tax system: Adopt a simple and fair single-rate tax system by scrapping the internal revenue code and replacing it with one that is no longer than 4,543 words – the length of the original Constitution. (64.9%).

~ Audit federal government agencies for constitutionality: Create a Blue Ribbon taskforce that engages in an audit of federal agencies and programs, assessing their Constitutionality, and identifying duplication, waste, ineffectiveness, and agencies and programs better left for the states or local authorities. (63.37%).

~ Limit annual growth in federal spending: Impose a statutory cap limiting the annual growth in total federal spending to the sum of the inflation rate plus the percentage of population growth. (56.57%).

~ Repeal the health care legislation passed on March 23, 2010: De-fund, repeal, and replace the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. (56.39%).

~ Pass an "all-of-the-above" energy policy: Authorize the exploration of additional energy reserves to reduce American dependence on foreign energy sources and reduce regulatory barriers to all other forms of energy creation. (55.5%).

~ Reduce earmarks: Place a moratorium on all earmarks until the budget is balanced, and then require a two-thirds majority to pass any earmark. (55.47%).

~ Reduce taxes: Permanently repeal all recent tax increases, and extend permanently the George W. Bush temporary reductions in income tax, capital gains tax, and estate taxes, currently scheduled to end in 2011. (53.38%)

Based on the above, I'm a "Tea Party Patriot." But when Tea Partiers segue into matters of morality, they lose me.

The Tea Party Patriots asked both Democrats and Republicans to sign on to the Contract. No Democrats signed on, and the contract met resistance from some Republicans who since created "Commitment to America." Brendan Buck, a spokesman for that agenda explained that the Contract is too narrow in focus, and not exactly what the Republican party would include in its own top-10 list of priorities. (Source: Wiki)

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670739 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:23 PM
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ROLE AS A CATHOLIC VOTER

Catholics have a moral obligation to promote the common good through the exercise of their voting privileges (cf. CCC 2240). It is not just civil authorities who have responsibility for a country. "Service of the common good require[s] citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community" (CCC 2239). This means citizens should participate in the political process at the ballot box.

But voting cannot be arbitrary. "A well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law that contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals" (CPL 4). A citizen’s vote most often means voting for a candidate who will be the one directly voting on laws or programs. But being one step removed from law-making doesn’t let citizens off the hook, since morality requires that we avoid doing evil to the greatest extent possible, even indirectly.

Some things are always wrong, and no one may deliberately vote in favor of them. Legislators, who have a direct vote, may not support these evils in legislation or programs. Citizens support these evils indirectly if they vote in favor of candidates who propose to advance them. Thus, to the greatest extent possible, Catholics must avoid voting for any candidate who intends to support programs or laws that are intrinsically evil. When all of the candidates endorse morally harmful policies, citizens must vote in a way that will limit the harm likely to be done.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670740 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:23 PM
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Hmmmmm. By whom? Who is the puppetmaster? Who do we direct our appeals to? George Soros? The Chicoms? The Ayatollahs? The Klingons? Don't answer, it's a rhethorical question.

That's the problem. By whom, indeed. If only Owebama would commit an act of clearly defined treason, he could be impeached. He's too slippery to commit an act of universally defined treason, in my opinion.

Article 2, Section 4 states that the President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States shall be removed from office upon impeachment and conviction of treason, bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors. The term "misdemeanors" has been construed so that it does not refer to misdemeanors in the general criminal law sense, i.e., minor infractions. The term is read in conjunction with the other 3 items, treason, bribery, high crimes i.e. very serious offenses.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670742 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:28 PM
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Based on the above, I'm a "Tea Party Patriot." But when Tea Partiers segue into matters of morality, they lose me.

So all of the tenants you list above are ammoral? On what basis should anyone follow those tenents? If they are the "right" thing to do, then morality MUST be in the picture.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670743 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:31 PM
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Your participation in both private and public life must be informed by your faith.

Yes, of course. Act according to your faith, but don't impose it on others. That is simply wrong.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670744 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:33 PM
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Catholics have a moral obligation to promote the common good through the exercise of their voting privileges (cf. CCC 2240).

So vote. Vote for whoever you think is of the highest moral values you require. That's not the same as public servants imposing their religious principles on the entire country and trying to draft laws that reflect those principles.

Sounds like you'd prefer a theocracy, which is wrong and un-Constitutional.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670745 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:36 PM
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So all of the tenants you list above are ammoral?

All the tenets listed are religiously neutral. They concern the running of the country, not the conduct of citizens.

Amoral means lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something.

Clearly, keeping the nation on a sound fiscal footing so that its citizens can accomplish their individual goals--including the practice of their religion without interference--is Job #1 for the government.

For everything else, I say to the government: Butt out!

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670746 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:41 PM
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Your participation in both private and public life must be informed by your faith.

Yes, of course. Act according to your faith, but don't impose it on others. That is simply wrong.


I already said you don't impose your religion on others. How can your faith, by which you agree that participation in the public square must be informed, be completely divorced from the public square or else it's considered imposing your faith?

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670747 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:42 PM
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Sounds like you'd prefer a theocracy, which is wrong and un-Constitutional.

Feel free to continue to beat that straw man.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670748 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:43 PM
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So all of the tenants you list above are ammoral?

All the tenets listed are religiously neutral. They concern the running of the country, not the conduct of citizens.


So running the country is not considered conduct?

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670749 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:44 PM
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Citizens support these evils indirectly if they vote in favor of candidates who propose to advance them

Forcing republican candidates to be a one issue candidate (on an issue that doesn't have majority support) is supporting Democratic take over off government.

Rather than forcing religious views on others, the more difficult but a morally correct position, would be to work on the causes and offer assistance.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670753 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:53 PM
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How can your faith, by which you agree that participation in the public square must be informed, be completely divorced from the public square or else it's considered imposing your faith?

Example: The Mormon faith exhorts its members to save 10% of their earnings. Would Mitt Romney have endorsed a law requiring non-Mormon Americans to save 10%? He had better not! It would be utterly wrong of him to say that ALL Americans should save 10% because Mormons believe in this practice.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670755 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 1:59 PM
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Example: The Mormon faith exhorts its members to save 10% of their earnings. Would Mitt Romney have endorsed a law requiring non-Mormon Americans to save 10%? He had better not! It would be utterly wrong of him to say that ALL Americans should save 10% because Mormons believe in this practice.

You made my point by beating the straw man yet another time. Romney did not impose those beliefs on others, (again, I never suggested that he should have) yet he is a good man of character and morals and his faith informs how he would govern. He would seek God's counsel before making big decisions. According to you, that is imposing his beliefs on everyone else. Or if he supported legislation and championed the pro life position, (not decreeing like king 0bama would do) to you that's imposing his religion on others. This is simply false. Again, one's faith should inform one's conscience and how one acts in all areas of one's life, whether it be in the public square or the private square.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670758 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 2:04 PM
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Rather than forcing religious views on others, the more difficult but a morally correct position, would be to work on the causes and offer assistance.

It's not up to the government to "work on the causes and offer assistance." That role belongs to churches and other humane entities. Churches, for example, should be doing everything they can to offer assistance to unwed mothers who THINK, due to their desperate circumstances, they have no way out of their predicament. My church works closely with a group that counsel unwed mothers. Many children who would have been aborted have been adopted by members of my church. That's how faith informs one's actions, not by governmental edict.

Example: This country used to be much more racist than it is today. So, following the Constitution--which is the only thing that should drive the government's actions--laws were imposed that made it unlawful to discriminate. Under the widely acknowledged phenomenon that "feelings follow action," by not allowing separate drinking fountains (etc.), we have less racism today. (When you think about it, it's rather shocking that for 100 years of our nation's history, it was perfectly acceptable for one person to OWN another person!)

Now, the things that challenge our nation's conscience are Constitutional in nature; that is, is a fetus a "person" protected by the Constitution? Is there anything in the Constitution about entitlement programs? (No.)

The government needs to stick to its knitting and stop inserting itself in matters of morality. This is why, as a Christian, I cannot say the government should NOT allow same sex marriage. Whether men should marry men or women marry women isn't covered by the Constitution, so I say, "Butt out!"

Do I think same sex marriage undermines public morality? Maybe, but that's got nothing to do with running a country.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670762 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 2:21 PM
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Romney did not impose those beliefs on others, (again, I never suggested that he should have) yet he is a good man of character and morals and his faith informs how he would govern. He would seek God's counsel before making big decisions. According to you, that is imposing his beliefs on everyone else.

No, it's not. He would not have imposed Mormon principles on anyone, even when those principles comport with the Constitution. He, as Chief Executive Officer of the United States, would first follow the Constitution in his job, and his Mormon principles in his every day life.

I listened very carefully for this, and I believe Romney would have made an exemplary president because his character and morals were formed by his upbringing, but he wouldn't impose any of those tenets on others. We've got the Constitution and laws for guiding right behavior on our citizenry.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670777 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 3:15 PM
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It would be utterly wrong of him to say that ALL Americans should save 10% because Mormons believe in this practice.

It would be utterly wrong of him to say that ALL Americans should *be required by law to* save 10%.

Telling all Americans that it would be a really good idea and they really ought to do it is a different matter. And there are excellent arguments in favor of it that have nothing to do with religion.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 3:23 PM
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It would be utterly wrong of him to say that ALL Americans should *be required by law to* save 10%.

Yes, of course. Thanks for the correction. Government can implore, cajole and encourage certain behavior all it wants, but ought not legislate religious principles.

I think certain types of propaganda are permissible. "Only you can prevent forest fires" and "Don't be a litterbug" were very effective in their day. I still don't throw trash out the car window.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670796 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 3:49 PM
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Many children who would have been aborted have been adopted by members of my church. That's how faith informs one's actions, not by governmental edict.

I agree, and I should have been clearer in post.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670797 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 3:51 PM
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Many children who would have been aborted have been adopted by members of my church. That's how faith informs one's actions, not by governmental edict.

I agree, and I should have been clearer in post.


Who was arguing that one's faith should be imposed by governmental edict?

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670800 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 3:56 PM
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Rephrase:

Who was arguing that one's faith should be imposed on others by governmental edict?

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670807 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 4:26 PM
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Who was arguing that one's faith should be imposed by governmental edict?

Have you tried looking in a mirror?

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670809 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 4:39 PM
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Me: Who was arguing that one's faith should be imposed [on others] by governmental edict?
=========================================

Have you tried looking in a mirror?


Please show me in this thread where I argued that.
You can't.
In fact, here is what I posted upthread in post #670736

Your participation in both private and public life must be informed by your faith. It's a false dichotomy which you suggest. Morality doesn't get left in a church or synagogue. One's conscience and actions must be informed by what God teaches. We are responsible to act in both the public and private sphere based upon those principles and teachings. That doesn't mean we force others to agree with us. We use persuasion and appeal to morality, such as in opposing abortion, because it is the murder of an innocent human being. We should do everything possible to give a voice to the innocent and defend their right to life. This can't be done by merely preaching to the choir, it requries that we step into the pool and get our feet wet and participate.




Here's what you and CC have done:



http://standupforamerica.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/strawma...

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670811 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 4:44 PM
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Based on the above, I'm a "Tea Party Patriot." But when Tea Partiers segue into matters of morality, they lose me.
_____________________________

Just curious, I see this often.

Just where does the Tea Party lose folks when it goes into religion?

While there are some very religious Tea Party folks, where does the Tea Party do anything that someone actually object to regarding religion? These are simply not their issues. Have I missed something, or is this more BS from those whoo despise fiscal constraint(aka progressive both Republican and Democrat)

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670812 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 4:46 PM
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We use persuasion and appeal to morality, such as in opposing abortion, because it is the murder of an innocent human being.

Then you agree than women should have access to legal abortion?

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670814 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 4:48 PM
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Nice try to change the subject. Admit I never said what you claimed I was saying.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670815 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 4:51 PM
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Nice try to change the subject. Admit I never said what you claimed I was saying.

It isn't a change in subject.

If you are not attempting to impose your religious beliefs on others by force of law, then you accept that women should have access to legal abortions.

If abortion is illegal, then you are imposting your religious beliefs by law on all women.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670816 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 4:52 PM
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Who was arguing that one's faith should be imposed by governmental edict?

That's what it sounded like to me but if you say your position is not that religious tenets be imposed by government edict, I take you at your word.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670818 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 4:55 PM
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It isn't a change in subject.

If you are not attempting to impose your religious beliefs on others by force of law, then you accept that women should have access to legal abortions.

If abortion is illegal, then you are imposting your religious beliefs by law on all women.


False choice, false premise, false conclusion. And you are fast at creating yet another strawman.

You are changing the subject.

Be a man and admit that I never said that I believe that my faith should be imposed on others by the force of law.

If you can't at least be honest, you aren't worth my time.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670822 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 5:03 PM
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Who was arguing that one's faith should be imposed by governmental edict?

I think Republicans should cave on same sex marriage. They will NEVER prevail in this area and it's none of their business, anyway.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 5:04 PM
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We use persuasion and appeal to morality, such as in opposing abortion, because it is the murder of an innocent human being.

Then you agree that women should have access to legal abortion?

This is a Constitutional issue. In any event, surely you have a better rebuttal than this.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670826 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 5:07 PM
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If you are not attempting to impose your religious beliefs on others by force of law, then you accept that women should have access to legal abortions.

Now you're throwing free speech out the window! He can express his opinion and his beliefs all he wants. He's not saying, absent a Constitutional determination--which is what the issue is--that government should impose religious edicts.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670828 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 5:20 PM
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Be a man and admit that I never said that I believe that my faith should be imposed on others by the force of law.

If you can't at least be honest, you aren't worth my time.


I am asking you to be honest with your position.

Why are you unable to answer yes or no to a direct question?

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670829 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 5:27 PM
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OK, you have proved that you are incapable of honesty and are not worthy of my time, sooooooo

*PLOINK*

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 5:28 PM
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If you are not attempting to impose your religious beliefs on others by force of law, then you accept that women should have access to legal abortions.

Now you're throwing free speech out the window! He can express his opinion and his beliefs all he wants. He's not saying, absent a Constitutional determination--which is what the issue is--that government should impose religious edicts.


He is free to express his opinion.

Amending to the Constituation to give fetus and pre-fetus rights have failed. This is an argument that is based in faith. How is this not forcing religious beliefs on others?

Women still are not guaranteed equal protection under the constitution.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670831 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 5:29 PM
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Obviously, Josh's personal belief is that abortion is murder, but he did not say that his personal belief, religious in nature, should be imposed on others. Once he clarified his position--which he clearly did--there's no reason why he should have to answer your obnoxious question with "yes" or "no."

However, abortion is a Constitutional issue because, obviously, a "person" has the Constitutional right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670832 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 5:34 PM
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Amending to the Constituation to give fetus and pre-fetus rights have failed. This is an argument that is based in faith.

No, it's not. It's based on whether a fetus is a person. Just because up to now the argument has failed doesn't mean it should not still be argued.

Here's another example...

University health plan covers sex change operations
http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/07/brown-universitys-student-...

Should people be allowed to get sex changes? Well, sure, because that has nothing to do with government and how it runs a country. Let people have sex with beasts or whatever the hell else they want to do, too. The culture is going to hell in a hand basket, anyway, and nothing the government can (or should) do is going to change this.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 6:26 PM
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I think Republicans should cave on same sex marriage. They will NEVER prevail in this area and it's none of their business, anyway.

____________________

I actually lean more towards Warrl's thoughts that all marriage stuff should go away.

That said, there are financial reasons to want marriage to be given to gays. I do not back more money going to marriage -- if we get rid of it all? Then I am fine with gay marriage, there should be a simplified way to put inheritance rights and proxy decision stuff to another party without a lot of complicated mumbojumbo and fees.

The genesis of this made sense to me. Support stay at homes wives having kids etc. That never existed for a gay marriage, do we want to remove that subsidy? Let's make that decision, do we want to give it to gays? Why?

I could not care about gays at all, my only thought on the subject since I can remember it guys liking guys ? Well, I always thought some cute in shape guys chasing each other was to my benefit basically and on the other side of the coin, it made great spreadfolds in Penthouse.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 6:29 PM
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think Republicans should cave on same sex marriage. They will NEVER prevail in this area and it's none of their business, anyway. ______________________

BTW I thought this was about the Tea Party imposing religion on the Republican PArty, I am pretty sure same sex marriage is not an actual issue the Tea PArty gives much talk to.

This happens all the time, even from folks that should be supporters. They bring all kinds of non-existent problems the Tea Party has.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670838 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 6:32 PM
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BTW I thought this was about the Tea Party imposing religion on the Republican PArty, I am pretty sure same sex marriage is not an actual issue the Tea PArty gives much talk to.

Whether they do or don't pontificate about gay marriage, Tea Party Patriots are associated with this issue via the Librul Left.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670843 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 7:40 PM
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Who was arguing that one's faith should be imposed by governmental edict?



You, when you insist that abortion should be outlawed because it allegedly violates your faith.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 7:43 PM
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OK, you have proved that you are incapable of honesty and are not worthy of my time, sooooooo

*PLOINK*





This happens every time Josh gets caught in a lie or when he loses an argument.



It happens a lot.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 7:45 PM
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Obviously, Josh's personal belief is that abortion is murder, but he did not say that his personal belief, religious in nature, should be imposed on others.



He wants it outlawed because his Church opposes it, and has stated this many times here at TMF.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 7:51 PM
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He wants it outlawed because his Church opposes it, and has stated this many times here at TMF.

It's a Constitutional issue. C-O-N-S-T-I-T-U-T-I-O-N. Remember? The document on which our country was founded?

Josh can rant all he wants about outlawing abortion based on his Church's teaching, but it's never going to be outlawed for that reason--nor should it. Banning abortion on Constitutional grounds is another matter altogether.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 7:55 PM
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Obviously, Josh's personal belief is that abortion is murder, but he did not say that his personal belief, religious in nature, should be imposed on others.

He wants it outlawed because his Church opposes it, and has stated this many times here at TMF.
--------------------------------------------------------
Why i'm wading into this i'll never know, wait, Canadian Club, nevermind. I'm not religious, if i'm forced to go to a church ceremony of some sort i curl up into the, er, fetal position and cry, but, big Butt, like CC said, Catherine Coy, not Canadian Club, it comes down to where you think "life" begins. It's not religious for me, and i haven't thought about it too deeply because i don't plan on having kids and i'm pro-choice-ie. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Does life start after the babies head pops out? For me i'd have nightmares if i aborted a fetus after a certain point, for me it's the nightmare test. you can go on and make it a religious argument to make yourself seem like you're dealing in rationality, but really i think it's subjective.

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670849 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 8:03 PM
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Why i'm wading into this i'll never know, wait, Canadian Club, nevermind

I never do wade in. My position on the matter is quite well-known to the regulars here. Life begins at conception, so any stance other than to equate abortion with murder would be inconsistent.

If people cannot see my point, then arguing with them is not going to enlighten them. I cannot stop them from misrepresenting my point of view, so why even try?

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670851 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 8:14 PM
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For me i'd have nightmares if i aborted a fetus after a certain point, for me it's the nightmare test. you can go on and make it a religious argument to make yourself seem like you're dealing in rationality, but really i think it's subjective.

Abortion is a highly emotional and complex issue precisely for the reasons you stated. You make more sense flat out drunk than FeedMeCrap makes presumably sober.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 8:14 PM
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I never do wade in. My position on the matter is quite well-known to the regulars here. Life begins at conception, so any stance other than to equate abortion with murder would be inconsistent.
----------------------------------------------------
Well i don't think i share your life point, but i respect your opinion. I just don't like all the "you must agree to partial birth abortion or you're an anti-science religious nutjob" point of view. I dunno. I said too much already.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 8:27 PM
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I just don't like all the "you must agree to partial birth abortion or you're an anti-science religious nutjob"

That's just the way liberals roll. If you disagree with them you hate: women, children, the poor, the elderly, minorities, puppies, etc.... No debate, just 3rd Grade emotionalism.

It's all just manipulation to get you to shut up.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670859 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 8:53 PM
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I see we've had a visit from the Father of Lies, or one of his most staunch minions. ;-)

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670861 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 9:12 PM
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That's just the way liberals roll. If you disagree with them you hate: women, children, the poor, the elderly, minorities, puppies, etc....

How is this different from "Life begins at conception. Any other opinion is evil."?

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670862 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 9:24 PM
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How is this different from "Life begins at conception. Any other opinion is evil."?

Enough of you. Once you get onto this topic, you turn tele on us.

I'm sorry that you were impregnated and left holding the bag. I'm sorry that the man in your life wasn't able/willing to hold up his end of the bargain, but two wrongs don't make a right.

You need counseling. It is obvious that there is a huge amount of unresolved anger. You are so angry at whatever happened to you that you'll kill innocent parties trying to get even.

You have successfully achieved Escape Velocity. As far as I'm concerned, whatever positives you bring to the discussion table is far outweight by your one-trick pony hatred of the unborn.

Wallow away in your bitterness in my p-box.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670865 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 9:57 PM
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You need counseling. It is obvious that there is a huge amount of unresolved anger. You are so angry at whatever happened to you that you'll kill innocent parties trying to get even.

Your assumptions are wrong.

As with Josh, you don't want to hear from anyone who doesn't agree.

By the way, you didn't answer the question.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670867 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 10:03 PM
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How is this different from "Life begins at conception. Any other opinion is evil?"

Because one [viewpoint] kills and the other doesn't?

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670869 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 10:06 PM
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vkg,

Where does life begin for you? Just curious, i won't judge you. Same with you FeedMeNow, i will judge you though <g>.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670871 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 10:08 PM
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How is this different from "Life begins at conception. Any other opinion is evil?"

Because one [viewpoint] kills and the other doesn't?


My point was that both are insulting anyone who disagrees.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670872 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 10:18 PM
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"vkg, Where does life begin for you? Just curious, i won't judge you. Same with you FeedMeNow, i will judge you though <g>." - 2828


By the strictest definition of what "life" is we were alive when we were still two separate cells in our parents bodies. When I was a sperm in my father's body and an egg in my mother's body I was alive. A sperm is "life" and an egg is "life." They respire, use the krebs cycle to produce energy, have cell membranes, DNA, etc. By all definitions they are alive.

Therefore right after the egg is fertilized - they are alive. They don't "die" before they join together to form a new organism. So by the strictest definition at the moment of conception they are "alive" and they are a new organism at that very moment.

Now as to whether it can successfully implant in the uterus and continue to grow into a functioning human being - that is a long and difficult process and a lot of zygotes never make it and are spontaneously aborted.

And that is all I know.

Art

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670875 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 10:27 PM
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vkg,

Where does life begin for you? Just curious, i won't judge you. Same with you FeedMeNow, i will judge you though <g>.


I should not be making the decision for other women.

Independent life begins at birth. Until that time how much control a woman has over her body is the question. Roe vs Wade made a decision that I consider to be a reasonable compromise.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 10:27 PM
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Therefore right after the egg is fertilized - they are alive. They don't "die" before they join together to form a new organism. So by the strictest definition at the moment of conception they are "alive" and they are a new organism at that very moment.

Now as to whether it can successfully implant in the uterus and continue to grow into a functioning human being - that is a long and difficult process and a lot of zygotes never make it and are spontaneously aborted.

And that is all I know.

Art
--------------------------------------------
Artimus, i hate to get scientific on you, i realize you're pro-choice like myself, but i'd like to know when you'd feel, for lack of a laymans term, "ooogy", when you'd abort a clump of cells? What time frame? I'd love to hear doctors on this.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670877 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 10:33 PM
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Where does life begin for you? Just curious, i won't judge you.

I should not be making the decision for other women.
------------------------------------------------
See, that's kind of a cop out. If you believed hypothetically that life began at 6 months then the woman would have no right to abort unless it was a possible harm to her existence.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670880 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 10:54 PM
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See, that's kind of a cop out. If you believed hypothetically that life began at 6 months then the woman would have no right to abort unless it was a possible harm to her existence.

All pregnancies involve possible harm.

Until birth, any rights given to the fetus are taken from the woman.

If I understand your argument, as soon as "life" begins all rights transfer to the fetus.

I do not agree with the position that a woman's life has no value as long as there is a fetal heartbeat.

There needs to be some balance. I accept that Roe vs Wade made a reasonable choice.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670882 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:06 PM
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See, that's kind of a cop out. If you believed hypothetically that life began at 6 months then the woman would have no right to abort unless it was a possible harm to her existence.

All pregnancies involve possible harm.

Until birth, any rights given to the fetus are taken from the woman.

If I understand your argument, as soon as "life" begins all rights transfer to the fetus.

I do not agree with the position that a woman's life has no value as long as there is a fetal heartbeat.
----------------------------------------------------
Yes, that's interesting, even though you twisted my relatively benign comment and made it into "womans life has no value" and "all rights are given to the fetus". I can understand your position, i really can, it's inside your body, then it's essentially "you". How do you feel about a doctor pulling the fetus out and then killing it? Does the half fetus/baby have a right to life, liberty, and and the pursuit?

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670883 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:11 PM
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"Artimus, i hate to get scientific on you, i realize you're pro-choice like myself, but i'd like to know when you'd feel, for lack of a laymans term, "ooogy", when you'd abort a clump of cells? What time frame? I'd love to hear doctors on this." - 2828
------------------


Well to be truthful I'm not completely "pro choice". I'm reluctantly pro-choice. I'm pro choice with reservations. It is only my own selfishness that makes me pro choice. I just don't want to pay for the care of all those extra unwanted rug rats.

I'm such a terrible tightwad I see kids as parasites and burdens. They are a huge bother. I see easy access to abortion as a necessary evil - and I sure as heck don't think the Federal Government should be funding it or birth control. I don't want those kids dumped on my doorstep.

But to be perfectly honest? That little clump of cells is a new separate unique human being. It's alive, it is doing what alive things do, it is clinging to life and trying desperately to be born.

So when does it start looking like a little human being? Zoologist Ernst Haeckel (1834-1919, said ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny which means that we go through the stages of our species evolution. So at what point does that clump of cells look like a little human being? When it's no longer a fish or an amphibian and it looks "human" that is when I start to get a little uncomfortable and begin having reservations about just scraping it out and throwing it in a trash can.

Art

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670884 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:13 PM
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"vkg, Where does life begin for you? Just curious, i won't judge you. Same with you FeedMeNow, i will judge you though <g>." - 2828


By the strictest definition of what "life" is we were alive when we were still two separate cells in our parents bodies. When I was a sperm in my father's body and an egg in my mother's body I was alive. A sperm is "life" and an egg is "life." They respire, use the krebs cycle to produce energy, have cell membranes, DNA, etc. By all definitions they are alive.

Therefore right after the egg is fertilized - they are alive. They don't "die" before they join together to form a new organism. So by the strictest definition at the moment of conception they are "alive" and they are a new organism at that very moment.

Now as to whether it can successfully implant in the uterus and continue to grow into a functioning human being - that is a long and difficult process and a lot of zygotes never make it and are spontaneously aborted.

And that is all I know.

Art
-------------------------------------------------------
I knew i shoulda made this more personal for Artimus. Where in the 9 months would you've become uneasy aborting a fetus assuming it was your sperm and your wifes egg? I know you don't want kids.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670885 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:17 PM
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So at what point does that clump of cells look like a little human being? When it's no longer a fish or an amphibian and it looks "human" that is when I start to get a little uncomfortable and begin having reservations about just scraping it out and throwing it in a trash can.
---------------------------------------------------------
When's that?

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670888 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:42 PM
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Does the half fetus/baby have a right to life, liberty, and and the pursuit?

No, it isn't yet a person.


How do you feel about a doctor pulling the fetus out and then killing it?

Plan B that prevents pregnancy doesn't have a doctor removing a fetus. I don't accept that its use is equivalent to a late term abortion.

In answer to your question, it is a decision I would not want to have to make, and that is the best answer I can give. There is no perfect answer.


Religious hospitals should be held accountable for malpractice when they allow women to die because of the policy that is better for both to die than perform an abortion.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670890 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:47 PM
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"I knew i shoulda made this more personal for Artimus. Where in the 9 months would you've become uneasy aborting a fetus assuming it was your sperm and your wife's egg? I know you don't want kids." - 2828


If Bonnie had become pregnant we'd be parents. We are Church of Christ people. Church of Christ people don't get abortions. Period. If Bonnie had become pregnant I would have worked harder to be more successful. If we had become parents I would be like everyone else and said that having kids and being parents was the best thing ever and I'd be bragging about how much I love my son or daughter. And that it was all worth it.

But we chose not to become parents so I'm just playing a different role. So because I got a vasectomy when I was 27 years old and we didn't have kids I go on about how great it is to be childless and not have kids. Life is like a play and we are actors playing our part. We just play the parts we were assigned. I suppose it's all part of that old adage about "if life gives you lemons make lemonade?" You just do the best you can with whatever circumstances you find yourself in. At least that is how I live my life, or like my mom used to say "you just got to live in this life kiddo!"

I don't know when that clump of cells looks like a little human being? I think it is quite early in gestation though? Like maybe even 8-10 weeks? When it has a brain and brain stem and they can measure brainwaves and heartbeat it is a human being. At that point I feel very uncomfortable with just aborting it - but it's not my decision to make. I'm not the one who has to care for it and pay for it and spend the rest of my life taking care of it. I can't live everybody else's life for them. I can barely take care of myself let alone tell someone else how they should live their lives.

Like I said, I am uncomfortable judging others. I take that "do not judge" thing seriously, and believe it is to be taken literally. I don't use a lot of fancy wordplay to pretend it doesn't mean what it says. I think it means exactly what it says.

Art

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Author: catmeyoo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670891 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:49 PM
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When's that?

Why aren't you in bed yet 2828? Are you staying up for the abortion discussion? Or is your lady having colleagues over for poker? Are you listening to music?

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:51 PM
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"When's that?" - 2828


I don't know. It's never been enough of an issue with me to try and find out. I don't care that much. The only reason I'm jumping in now is because ya'll are talking about it. Otherwise it rarely enters my brain. I think about other things.

I don't think about abortion or politics or even religion to be honest. I don't consider my "life after death" stuff to be religion because I don't think it matters what anyone believes. It's all irrelevant. We all go to the same place as far as I can tell. It doesn't even matter if you are a raving atheist. It honestly doesn't.

Art

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/8/2013 11:54 PM
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Why aren't you in bed yet 2828? Are you staying up for the abortion discussion? Or is your lady having colleagues over for poker? Are you listening to music?
--------------------------------------------------------
He, he, he, i'm listening to music, but my wife came home just now after watching a marathon of Blue Bloods <g>. I am a little interested in where people fall on the abortion scale, i dunno.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670894 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:11 AM
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For me i'd have nightmares if i aborted a fetus after a certain point, for me it's the nightmare test.




The vast majority of abortions are not performed on a fetus, and so your concerns are groundless.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:13 AM
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How is this different from "Life begins at conception. Any other opinion is evil?"

Because one [viewpoint] kills and the other doesn't?




But since abortion does not kill a human being, there is nothing to worry about.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:13 AM
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I don't know. It's never been enough of an issue with me to try and find out. I don't care that much. The only reason I'm jumping in now is because ya'll are talking about it. Otherwise it rarely enters my brain. I think about other things. -- Art

I would only jump in if I had stories to tell--some piece of fiction like "I had 3 abortions by the time I was 20--my mother made me. I guess I was a fertile little thing. She took me to an abortion doctor 40 miles east of here in a little town where one of her cousins worked as a nurse. It was clean and hygenic so that wasn't so bad, but it hurt. I felt bad the first time and defied her, but she pushed hard, called forth the spectre of my grandmother being grief stricken by the shame of it all, and she eventually won, after that I just went along. She kept track of my periods on a calendar--that was mortifying. Imagine my mother keeping track of my periods all those years. I guess she thought I was a little whore from the beginning." <g>

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:14 AM
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Where does life begin for you? Just curious, i won't judge you. Same with you FeedMeNow, i will judge you though <g>.



When there are brainwaves that are uniquely human, well into the second trimester.


Only an idiot thinks a single cell can be a human being.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:16 AM
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If you believed hypothetically that life began at 6 months then the woman would have no right to abort unless it was a possible harm to her existence.



If it was an unwelcome pregnancy, then terminating it is no different from shooting an intruder in your house.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:17 AM
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He, he, he, i'm listening to music, but my wife came home just now after watching a marathon of Blue Bloods <g>.

He, he, me too (re the music). But it's time to give it up, watch a little tv and go to bed. I do two things now listening to music at night--read (puruse quickly as of late) the day's RECF posts or play mahjong. Tonight I've done a little of both.

I love Blue Bloods. I taped tonight's episode earlier. I didn't realize that Danny, the oldest son is Mark Wahlberg's brother until recently. I like those Wahlberg guys. Watching Tom Selleck is the main draw for me I suppose, but I like the whole cast. I like their Sunday family dinners.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670900 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:19 AM
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Does the half fetus/baby have a right to life, liberty, and and the pursuit?



Are the unborn considered American citizens? Of course not. The Constitution is clear on this. One must be born to be a citizen.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:21 AM
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Plan B that prevents pregnancy doesn't have a doctor removing a fetus. I don't accept that its use is equivalent to a late term abortion.



Plan B does not cause abortions, nor does it prevent implantation.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:35 AM
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When it has a brain and brain stem and they can measure brainwaves and heartbeat it is a human being.



There are no brainwaves to measure before 20 to 24 weeks.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:47 AM
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"There are no brainwaves to measure before 20 to 24 weeks." - feedmenowhuman


This is pretty cool. Picture of a fetus at 8 weeks. It's starting to look human.......It's a video of a fetus squirming around. Also some neat information about babies.

http://www.welcomebabyhome.com/pregnancy_calender/adwords_p_...

It's all a moot point for me though. There are no children in my future. I've committed evolutionary suicide by being sterilized so for me it's not like I'll ever be in a position to have to make that choice.

Art

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 3:04 AM
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See, that's kind of a cop out. If you believed hypothetically that life began at 6 months then the woman would have no right to abort unless it was a possible harm to her existence.

That doesn't follow. I have no trouble believing that the woman's right to self-ownership exceeds another person's right to live inside that woman's body.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 3:06 AM
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I love Blue Bloods.

I do, too. I hope this series stays in production for a long time. It's very good TV.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 7:23 AM
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If you are not attempting to impose your religious beliefs on others by force of law, then you accept that women should have access to legal abortions.
_______________________

I have no idea who this came from. However, I really think that it is moronic.

To say this is in very real terms to say if you do not believe in murder being legal you are imposing your religious beliefs.

It is intellectually beyond bankrupt to believe that someone who does not base their opinions on religion could believe that life begins at conception -- simply for the point of a consistent and logical stance one could assume that position, because of all the potential implications of a slippery slope fall one could assume that -- there are a great number of reasons one could find that position to be theirs.

It is absurd to believe that so many people follow religion that they barely bother with and yet a position resonates with them. It is also just moronic to believe that any one position is the right position without indisputable facts. This is an issue of interpretation of when a life begins. Of course conversely it assumes the poster takes the position that without religion life just is not important and we can just indiscriminately kill when it is inconvenient not to.

That is a religious thing, though shall not murder etc. So obviously the poster believes murder is fine, because it is only religion that brings us to it

Of course that is not true. Only a moron would believe it is. Yet there is no basis other than religion -- natural rights? There is not such thing?

Again, anyone in this argument saying the other side's position is simplistic and easy to define on every level is a complete idiot.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670917 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 7:29 AM
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Whether they do or don't pontificate about gay marriage, Tea Party Patriots are associated with this issue via the Librul Left. ______________________


OK, so YOU talk about the Tea Party in the way the LEFT decides to define them and chose to repeat their lies?

That is the problem. Not with you, but with a national media that perpetuates flat out unconditional propaganda.

How did that idea become dominant? How did the Tea Party get assigned positions that have nothing to do with their positions??

Why are those positions common knowledge?

This is how folks keep GOOD from actually entering into politics. This is the only strength of the Obama adminsitration they lie about what their opponents want and believe and repeat the lie until it becomes the public truth.

This is not a good place for a nation to be. This is not just bad, it is the beginning of genuine evil being encoded into our society.

Obama is worse than most imagine, he is doing more harm than anyone wants to actually acknowledge, he is darkening people's minds in very bad ways

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670918 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 7:46 AM
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That's just the way liberals roll. If you disagree with them you hate: women, children, the poor, the elderly, minorities, puppies, etc.... No debate, just 3rd Grade emotionalism.
_______________________________

It is not merely emotionalism.

The entire mindset is a house of cards. The positions all lean on one another. Remove one and the entire mindset collapses

The thing is so many of the positions are so unimportant.

Are there really 3 issues on the scope of the entire US that combined that are less important than abortion and gun control and gay marriage?

Seriously? Who gives a fig about any of the three. But you have to concede them rather than just ignore them to make them go away.

Screw that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The liberals are wrong on every big issue, and as you get into any form of nuance on the small issues like the above they are slimy. Barrack Insane Obama believes it is OK to have a baby with only a foot left in the mom to have it's head crushed. Yet I have to accept that the extreme positions of some nut on the right is the actual issue? WHo is a bigger nut than someone with Obama's position? I would have to fith hard to find a tie.

Yet what do we hear from the press? Extremist exist only on the right

We should put all these issues to rest until we solve some important stuff. They are distractions, but accepting momentum by giving it to folks that are a combination of evil and wrong is not a good recipe.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670923 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 9:45 AM
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My wife and I love Blue Bloods. Watched it last night. I think the Walhberg actor in BB's is a better actor than his brother, who seems to be more famous.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670927 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 10:35 AM
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That is the problem. Not with you, but with a national media that perpetuates flat out unconditional propaganda. [...] This is how folks keep GOOD from actually entering into politics. This is the only strength of the Obama adminsitration: they lie about what their opponents want and believe and repeat the lie until it becomes the public truth.

Yup. Joseph Goebbels, Reich Minister of Propaganda in Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945 and one of Adolf Hitler's closest associates and most devout followers, has got nothing on Barrack Hussein Owebama and his devoted media followers.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670930 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 10:51 AM
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For me i'd have nightmares if i aborted a fetus after a certain point, for me it's the nightmare test.


The vast majority of abortions are not performed on a fetus, and so your concerns are groundless.
----------------------------------------------------------
The vast majority of gun crimes are not committed using an "assault weapon" so your concerns are groundless.

Burn!

Exactly.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670932 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 10:59 AM
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The liberals are wrong on every big issue, and as you get into any form of nuance on the small issues like the above they are slimy. Barrack Insane Obama believes it is OK to have a baby with only a foot left in the mom to have it's head crushed.

Both conservatives and liberals are wrong on every big issue.

It has been made clear here that there can be no compromise with conservatives because not agreeing is evil.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670937 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 11:17 AM
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The vast majority of abortions are not performed on a fetus, and so your concerns are groundless.

Of course, FeedMeCrap never bothers to authoritatively cite his numerous, repetitive and asinine statements. He just FA's your post if you point this out.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 11:22 AM
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It has been made clear here that there can be no compromise with conservatives because not agreeing is evil.

To be intellectually honest, you must accompany the above statement with this statement:

It has been made clear here that there can be no compromise with liberals because not agreeing is evil.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670944 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 11:23 AM
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The vast majority of abortions are not performed on a fetus, and so your concerns are groundless.

Of course, FeedMeCrap never bothers to authoritatively cite his numerous, repetitive and asinine statements. He just FA's your post if you point this out.


You are using the term fetus incorrectly. An embryo does not become a fetus for 2 to 3 months.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 11:33 AM
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You are using the term fetus incorrectly. An embryo does not become a fetus for 2 to 3 months.

I may be using the term incorrectly, but FeedMeCrap is simply full of crap.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670954 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 11:42 AM
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It has been made clear here that there can be no compromise with conservatives because not agreeing is evil.

To be intellectually honest, you must accompany the above statement with this statement:

It has been made clear here that there can be no compromise with liberals because not agreeing is evil.


I won't use the term evil for liberals. It has religious connotations that associate it with conservatives.

Not certain what the appropriate term would be for radical liberals. It would need to be policitally correct.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 11:50 AM
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I won't use the term evil for liberals.

Of course you won't. You're a librul. Denying the existence of evil is a particularly ignorant librul trait.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670958 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 11:59 AM
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The vast majority of abortions are not performed on a fetus, and so your concerns are groundless.
----------------------------------------------------------
The vast majority of gun crimes are not committed using an "assault weapon" so your concerns are groundless.




To what concerns are you referring?

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670959 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:01 PM
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I won't use the term evil for liberals.

Of course you won't. You're a librul. Denying the existence of evil is a particularly ignorant librul trait.


Liberal only for keeping government from imposing religious beliefs, but very much a financial conservative.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670961 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:07 PM
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For me i'd have nightmares if i aborted a fetus after a certain point, for me it's the nightmare test.


The vast majority of abortions are not performed on a fetus, and so your concerns are groundless.
----------------------------------------------------------
The vast majority of gun crimes are not committed using an "assault weapon" so your concerns are groundless.

Burn!

Exactly.
___________________________
You see 28's it is posts like yours that keep liberals from posting honestly here.
One comes, makes an honest post as opposed to their typical lies and distortion, and what do you do?
You point out that their views are so hypocritical that none of them stand on their own.
How do you expect idiots, not to feel like idiots, if you point out that they are idiots? This is why they watch MSNBC

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670963 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:24 PM
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Liberal only for keeping government from imposing religious beliefs,

I appreciate that you're trying to maintain a semblance of unbiased assessment of facts (as you're able to ascertain them) but denying the existence of evil is just not clear thinking.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670965 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 12:37 PM
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I appreciate that you're trying to maintain a semblance of unbiased assessment of facts (as you're able to ascertain them) but denying the existence of evil is just not clear thinking.

I am not denying the existence of evil.

The way the term has been used in this thread, it is very clear that it has religious overtones. Reversing the context, that liberals can't compromise because it is evil doesn't fit.

I have always stated that there needs to be a compromise. The compromise is not to bow to Josh as all knowing, and surrender the lives of all women to his views. Given his reaction to any examples of a pattern of abuse against women by the Catholic church, I believe he is very Catholic.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670967 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 1:39 PM
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The way the term has been used in this thread, it is very clear that it has religious overtones.

Many non-religious people freely use the word "evil." I guess that they disavow a Supreme Being makes their use of the word acceptable.

Hokay!

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670969 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 2:29 PM
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Many non-religious people freely use the word "evil." I guess that they disavow a Supreme Being makes their use of the word acceptable.

I feel, whether correct or not, that within this thread the context was religious.

The refusal of extreme liberals to not compromise isn't in the context of evil. It is more that they are absolutely right, and therefore you are wrong.

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Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 2:50 PM
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The refusal of extreme liberals to not compromise isn't in the context of evil. It is more that they are absolutely right, and therefore you are wrong.

Spoken like a true librul in the clothing of an alleged moderate.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670972 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 3:02 PM
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The refusal of extreme liberals to not compromise isn't in the context of evil. It is more that they are absolutely right, and therefore you are wrong.

Spoken like a true librul in the clothing of an alleged moderate.
__________________________

What makes the extreme liberal a dirtbag and evil is not that he/she will not compromise.

It is the dishonesty and the lying of their debates. They do not admit their desires and they blatantly lie when confronted with their behavior. That type of dishonesty and the inability to act any other way is the sign of the evil within. The entire debate if any liberal is actually involved, is that they are more than willing to compromise, and they wil lie that they are and claim that they will compromise, just do not do anything you want to do and they will do a little less of what they want to do today, and will finish the job tomorrow under the same conditions, if that hurts you well suck it up buttercup

The lying that drives them from one end of their agenda to the other, the unrelenting dishonesty is the key to what is their evil. I do not care their intent, if you wish to do TO OTHERS and do so withouth their knowledge, let alone consent, whether you believe you are doing good or ill is immaterial you are being driven by evil.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670974 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 3:21 PM
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The refusal of extreme liberals to not compromise isn't in the context of evil. It is more that they are absolutely right, and therefore you are wrong.

Spoken like a true librul in the clothing of an alleged moderate.


So you are claiming that liberals believe that everyone else is evil, and not that they just believe that they are absolutely right?

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670975 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 3:23 PM
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It is the dishonesty and the lying of their debates.

How do you know a politician is lying?

Their lips are moving.

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Author: icono5 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670977 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 3:58 PM
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<<I just don't like all the "you must agree to partial birth abortion or you're an anti-science religious nutjob">>

"That's just the way liberals roll. If you disagree with them you hate: women, children, the poor, the elderly, minorities, puppies, etc.... No debate, just 3rd Grade emotionalism.

It's all just manipulation to get you to shut up."


--------------------------------

Do you see the irony here? Complaining of hateful overgeneralizations, you respond by . . . generalizing wildly about liberals. At some point, someone has to demonstrate leadership. Break the cycle and quit trying to smear. The fact that 9 people recommended your crass stereotype suggests that we still have a long way to go. Sadly.

Steve

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670979 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 4:09 PM
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So you are claiming that liberals believe that everyone else is evil, and not that they just believe that they are absolutely right?

In the words of Comrade Clinton: "What difference does it make?!"

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670980 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 4:12 PM
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Do you see the irony here? Complaining of hateful overgeneralizations, you respond by . . . generalizing wildly about liberals. At some point, someone has to demonstrate leadership. Break the cycle and quit trying to smear. The fact that 9 people recommended your crass stereotype suggests that we still have a long way to go. Sadly.

Go back to PA where complaining about conservatives and smearing them is a way of life. Sadly.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670981 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 4:36 PM
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Do you see the irony here? Complaining of hateful overgeneralizations, you respond by . . . generalizing wildly about liberals. At some point, someone has to demonstrate leadership.
---------

Go back to PA where complaining about conservatives and smearing them is a way of life. Sadly.




Another conservatard argument defeated! So much for leadership.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670985 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 5:10 PM
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Do you see the irony here? Complaining of hateful overgeneralizations, you respond by . . . generalizing wildly about liberals. At some point, someone has to demonstrate leadership. Break the cycle and quit trying to smear. The fact that 9 people recommended your crass stereotype suggests that we still have a long way to go. Sadly.

Steve
____________________

You are right clownboy.

It is time for someone to lead, liberals have long done nothing but smear and whine and complain the other side is not doing this or that.

You are no better, just another dead ender doing nothing but ompaining about the other guy.

If you were not a two bit phony, you would be trying to lead. As a liberal you would be using your deserved status as a liberal to lead, instead of complaining to the other side that they are wrong!

DO you see the irony in that clown? Me I do try to lead, I am leading in an effort to throw enough garbage at people like you that you see the irony is the joke of your post.

You come to teach OTHERS how to behave, and you do so by showing how righteous you are and telling others what to do, while there is not even a hint of you leading an effort to reasonable. Do you even know what irony is?

I would love to be reasonable. I was honest and tasteful and ended up being called a nazi and am called a racist regularly by clowns like you, and I use like you not as a generalization, I am talking about those who are totally unaware of themselves and who think they an lecture others on how to behave well, while not doing squat themselves

You travel with slime, and then you choose to reprimand others and beleive anyone will take you seriously? If you are a parent, I hope you understand they will watch what you do, and recognize your rank hypocrisy even if they do not tell you. Just a head's up, you seem to need it, and I hate the thought of folks messing up kids.

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Author: bighairymike Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670998 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 7:48 PM
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Another conservatard argument defeated! So much for leadership. - FMNH

------------------

Conservatard just doesn't roll off the tongue like libtard does it FMNH? Too bad for you. You need to do some original thinking.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 670999 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 7:57 PM
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hello

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671000 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 7:58 PM
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hello?

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Author: bighairymike Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671001 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 7:59 PM
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hello? - 2828

--------

Well done Ice House Boy.

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671008 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 9:54 PM
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It's nice to see 2828 win one once and a while.

arrete

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671009 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 10:08 PM
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It's nice to see 2828 win one once and a while.

arrete
-----------------------------------
It's nice to see the Caps win once in awhile too. 5-0 <g>.

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671010 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/9/2013 10:49 PM
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It's nice to see the Caps win once in awhile too. 5-0 <g>.
------------

That was mean. I'm ignoring them.

arrete

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671031 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/10/2013 11:05 AM
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As usual, now that CathCoy is losing every argument show posts, she's FAing me right and left, and then dishonestly lying about it. Typical conservative!

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671042 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/10/2013 12:37 PM
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As usual, now that CathCoy is losing every argument show posts, she's FAing me right and left, and then dishonestly lying about it. Typical conservative!

This is a lie.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671043 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/10/2013 1:46 PM
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Yet another visit from The Father of Lies.

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Author: BGinNJ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671080 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/11/2013 12:36 AM
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<Life is like a play and we are actors playing our part. We just play the parts we were assigned.>


"We've all been working, rehearsing our parts, we know every part by heart....Overture, Camera, lights, this is it the night of heights, and oh what heights we'll hit, on with the show this is it!"


BG (with a tip of the hat to Jerry Seinfeld and his famous night at the opera)

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671086 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/11/2013 6:14 AM
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<Life is like a play and we are actors playing our part. We just play the parts we were assigned.>
_________________________________

Didn't Mongo say that?<grin>

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671095 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/11/2013 10:26 AM
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"Didn't Mongo say that?<grin> " - lowstudent


Who is "Mongo?"

The Education of the soul is too important for chance.

Art

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671097 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/11/2013 10:41 AM
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"Didn't Mongo say that?<grin> " - lowstudent


Who is "Mongo?"



http://www.myspace.com/video/john/mongo-only-pawn-in-game-of...

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671103 of 746137
Subject: Re: Obamacare Begins To Derail Date: 2/11/2013 11:04 AM
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Who is "Mongo?"

The Education of the soul is too important for chance.

Art
______________________

A character played in the movie 'Blazing Saddles' by Alex Karras.

(perhaps the Detroit Lions highest football moment of the 20th century<grin>)

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