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My DH has been sporatically employed for the last 3.5 years. This will soon impact his ability to pay his bills. He has started taking money from one credit card to pay other debts. He has used all of his savings and is concerned if he does get a job in the next 3 months, he will need to file bankruptcy.

We have no joint debts other than our rent and I am not having any problems paying my bills.

So my question, what would happen to me if he did file bankruptcy? I don't want any impact to my credit but we would need joint credit to buy a house in the near future (assuming he gets a job).
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Reading this just makes me realize how fortunate I am in that it would be impossible for my DH to declare bankruptcy because he can't pay "his" debts. For good or bad, we're in it together...if bills can't be paid at our house, it's a joint problem, with joint solutions...regardless of which name an account may be in.
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It is possible for one spouse to file bankruptcy. It would be advisable to see a bankruptcy lawyer before making a decision. Liability for debts can vary by state.

His bankruptcy will be a problem when applying for a mortgage. If the near future is within a couple of years, it will have a significant impact on your ability to obtain a mortgage and the interest rate.

Debra
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His bankruptcy will be a problem when applying for a mortgage. If the near future is within a couple of years, it will have a significant impact on your ability to obtain a mortgage and the interest rate.

Correct. Also, through errors and reporting, if you're married his BK could suddenly appear on your credit report - I went through that when my STBX who is now X filed for Chapter 13 during our divorce --
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So my question, what would happen to me if he did file bankruptcy? I don't want any impact to my credit but we would need joint credit to buy a house in the near future (assuming he gets a job).

Since you keep your money separate...is there anyway to loan him the minimums on his debt until he can find a job? Or maybe, as a condition of the loan he has to work at temp jobs until something permanent comes along? It will keep his credit rating intact, and along with it your dreams of home ownership (well, at least home ownership soon).

A BK will probably keep you out of a house in the near future if you insist on him being on the loan (or, alternately, if he needs to be for approval reasons). Is there anyway for you to be solely on the loan for a house? If so, his BK shouldn't be an issue.

impolite
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I've given this a bit of thought.

What's the impact of him filing a BK and then the two of you getting a mortgage.

1) You will not be able to get a mortgage for 12 months after the BK - period. Not even sub-prime with exception to a massive down payment and massive interest rates.

2) Twelve to 24 months - very difficult to get a mortgage, even in a subprime situation. There are some limited options, I know Pacific Coast has a program for discharged BK in a 12 to 24 month situation. But there are a long list of closing conditions that also must be met.

3) 24 months to 84 months after discharge: You can get a subprime mortgage. As the BK gets further out your rates and conditions get better.

4) After 7 years: You can get conventional financing again.

==============================================

I don't know what your specific situation is. In my case, I had seperate finances across the board from my SO since 1995, after a wild incident over money that ended up with me in the hospital and her in handcuffs. I should have followed my instincts and divorced her then - but that's a different story. Part of my conditions of trying to make things work again was 100% separate finances.

My SO, now my X was horrible with money. When she racked up massive credit card debt on personal travel, clothing, and other fluff purchases I refused to bail her out. She went to CCCS and then defaulted on their payments. During our separation she filed for a BK. The house was in both our names, no way around - everything else, even our cars, were separate.

So I don't know what your situation, but separate finances isn't a bad idea IMHO (I know others have chimed in with a different opinion).

Now with all that said and with some brutal honesty revealed I have to answer your question with a question.

Just where are you at with your relationship? If you want this relationship with your DH to continue then my suggestion is to bail them out. Not only will the BK kill you from getting a mortgage for 24 months (basically) but will hurt your renters, auto insurance, and in the future home owners insurance. If he's having a hard time finding a job, having a BK on his credit report will make that job search HARDER. A lot of people don't realize this spiral and all of that then has an impact on you.

It sounds like to me you need to do the following:

1) Internal soul searching on just where you are at with your relationship. Why separate finances to that point? In my case it was because I never wanted to get attacked at 5:00 AM while I was sleeping and beaten again by a drunk women who just came back from a night of partying, and was upset that the ATM machine wouldn't give her anymore cash for the night. If you're having big problems in your relationship, than maybe you're not in the right situation. Not for me to say, not the place to discuss, but there is a Sex & Relationship board on the Fool.

2) If one is you're in for the game, then I say in for a penny in for a pound. I would bail your DH out. Cover minimum payments. Be supportive on the job search, ESPECIALLY if they are really trying. There are some regions and some job sectors still hurting from the 2000 - 2002 meltdown. I have a couple of friends who were laid off in 2001 and still have not found parity employment (and they were not in fly by night dot com making $250K to drink latte situations).

3) If your DH has overspent to this point -- you need to have a Come to Jesus with them. It's time for tough love -- which can be hard. The biggest thing people forget is that BK is not a cure - it's a treatment and the victim is likely to fall right back into the same trap. I'll be the first to admit that money is not my strongest suit. It's not my weakest either, but there are folks here smarter than me. If I ever got married again I honestly would love to be in a situation with someone where I just gave them a check and I had an allowance. I may know a lot about debt and management, a lot through personal experience and some work I've done - but I LOATHE dealing with it.

----------------------------

I really wish you the best of luck with everything. If you decide your in for the game than I would suggest providing your budget here for others to review - both yours and the DH - we can help on how to juggle to keep the wolves away from your door. But if you're going to stay with your DH, their BK is going to hurt you financially by proxy.
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<<1) Internal soul searching on just where you are at with your relationship. Why separate finances to that point? In my case it was because I never wanted to get attacked at 5:00 AM while I was sleeping and beaten again by a drunk women who just came back from a night of partying, and was upset that the ATM machine wouldn't give her anymore cash for the night. If you're having big problems in your relationship, than maybe you're not in the right situation. Not for me to say, not the place to discuss, but there is a Sex & Relationship board on the Fool.

2) If one is you're in for the game, then I say in for a penny in for a pound. I would bail your DH out. Cover minimum payments. Be supportive on the job search, ESPECIALLY if they are really trying. There are some regions and some job sectors still hurting from the 2000 - 2002 meltdown. I have a couple of friends who were laid off in 2001 and still have not found parity employment (and they were not in fly by night dot com making $250K to drink latte situations).

3) If your DH has overspent to this point -- you need to have a Come to Jesus with them. It's time for tough love -- which can be hard. The biggest thing people forget is that BK is not a cure - it's a treatment and the victim is likely to fall right back into the same trap. I'll be the first to admit that money is not my strongest suit. It's not my weakest either, but there are folks here smarter than me. If I ever got married again I honestly would love to be in a situation with someone where I just gave them a check and I had an allowance. I may know a lot about debt and management, a lot through personal experience and some work I've done - but I LOATHE dealing with it.

>>


Very sage advice I think, Milligram.

There was no inclination by the original poster to go for a divorce.

Your #2 point is well taken. What are the prospects for this person to be employed? What kind of jobs are they looking for and what kinds of employment are realistically available? Why has employment been sporadic?

Some people have a bad streak, others are unemployable. I was out of work for nearly three years once, myself, while I mourned the loss of a career I had worked hard for but was ill equipped for in terms of personality. Eventually I ran out of savings and went and found an office clerical job.


I think more information is needed to determine this person's employment prospects and some real goal setting on spending and employment search. And someone with a string of bad fortune may be depressed and need help to start setting realistic goals.

Bankruptcy doesn't sound like much of a solution to any of these problems, unless they are incapable of dealing with reality. Not even then, really.



Seattle Pioneer
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Milligram,

Is that situation you wrote about also the same where you were dead until revived?. If so and you do not mind answering, what did she do that caused you to get to that point?.

I am curious about one thing (which I think the op wanted an answer to). Let's say spouse A and spouse B share no credit cards together. Spouse A files bankruptcy on their debt and is not employed. Spouse B goes to get a mortgage and checks the box that they wish not to have Spouse A's credit or assets (what is left) used in consideration for the mortgage. What happens?.

-J
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This is hard for me to discuss, it's on my mind a lot because the anniversary of my death was actually 3/18 so YIKES.

When I met my X she was ambitious, centered, loving. There were some issues that had me concerned, but nothing really terrible until she became pregnant with our first child. She became a completely different person. COMPLETELY.

Her thyroid has gone haywire, she suffers from very severe hypothroyidism that she never treated properly. She had several doctors recommend removal of her thyroid, and had the surgery scheduled five times. She never did it. Her mood swings went back and forth based on her thyroid level. When the performance of her thyroid hit rock bottom at times she would go into period of near psychosis. This would result in violent acts.

For me physical abuse started in 1995 culminating with the July 1995 5:00 AM attack. She was the one who then called the police who came in guns drawn ready for a felony take down of me until they saw me, bruised and bleeding. The guns went back into the holsters and the first officer said, "what the Hell is going on here."

Filed for divorce, backed out.

In 1996 had another incident where I got slapped, pushed and had a computer monitor thrown at me. We seperated for three weeks, and then back.

Then she started self medicating with alcohol. A drinking binge absolutely ruined Christmas of 1998 and I then brought on a very serious threat of divorce. Her solution? Stop taking birth control and another child born into the mess. But the physical violence stopped - it just became emotional and psychological.

I put up with it until the summer of 2002. I was done after I got ill and had emergency surgery. What should have been a normal operation but went really bad. When I awoke in ICU on a respirator my X was at work. Yup, I'm laying in ICU and she went to work. Game - set - match.

Done

Then I got sick again in November of 2002 and then fell apart in March of 2003. But I'm here, and the kids are safe.

The worst part of all of this was the horrible realization that the "system" has almost nothing in place for male victims of Domestic Violence. Men in my former position don't talk about it, and women typically aren't physically violent - they are usually more emotionally/psychological abusive. Worst of all, there is a lot of supporting evidence on how men handle this. It builds up inside and they snap - becoming a victim defendant. I'm not excusing wife beaters - there are a lot more women who suffer at the hands of men than vice versa -- but there are men who suffer.

As an example I couldn't take my son to a children's DV survivors group because the "women" in the group would be nervous having a man present. I was not eligible for anything, the court systems DV aids didn't know how to handle me and could refer me next to nothing for a safety net, and there was almost zero aid out there for me.

Now that time has gone by I am planning to start a website with my story (I've written a 55 page book of sorts) and try to make people more aware of male victims of domestic violence. Why did I stay in? The same reason why a woman stays in. For the children to protect them and because your sense of identity is slowly chipped away until you're isolated from friends, family, and co-workers, and your identity is based on your abuser. You get sucked into the abusers cycle, which as the victim has you happy when times are bad, because things will get good, and when things are good your terrified because they are about to get bad. Throw in the unpredictability of a little hypothroidism psychosis every now and then and you've got the "fun" in dysfunctional.

The worst part of all is my oldest, who just can't understand why mom does what she does and how her mind works. She remembers things not as they happen, but how she remembers they happened, and those memories are REAL for her. It's very scary and for an 11 year old difficult to process. I could really rant on and on about this.

BUT BUT BUT BUT:

1) Picked this person.

2) I elected to copulate with this person and have two kids.

3) Elected to stick around.

Those were MY decisions, my fault, and I must live with that. But here's the crazy part, if I could go back and do it over - I wouldn't do a whole lot different, because I wouldn't have my beautiful children.
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worst part of all is my oldest, who just can't understand why mom does what she does and how her mind works. She remembers things not as they happen, but how she remembers they happened, and those memories are REAL for her

Let me make a suggestion if you haven't already. Get counseling for your children. I grew up in a domestically violent home (male not female) where the violence continues. It made me much more dependent but destroyed my self esteem. I still can remember the day my father threw me against the wall or all the times he slapped my mother silly.

The only thing that has changed is my mother is in a wheelchair.

-J
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It made me much more dependent

I meant to say independent.

-J
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... This will soon impact his ability to pay his bills. ...

We have no joint debts other than our rent and I am not having any problems paying my bills.

So my question, what would happen to me if he did file bankruptcy? I don't want any impact to my credit but we would need joint credit to buy a house in the near future (assuming he gets a job).


Can you cover both your bills and his bills at this time? If so, that would keep you from paying exorbitant interest rates on a mortgage in a couple of years.

While I know couples who have separate checking accounts, I don't know any that would hesitate to help each other in extenuating circumstances.
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I don't know any that would hesitate to help each other in extenuating circumstances.

Keep reading the thread...
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There is help out there for male victims of domestic violence.

http://www.batteredmenshelpline.org/

Peace,

donna
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nolagirl,

You wrote, We have no joint debts other than our rent and I am not having any problems paying my bills.

Technically rent is an expense, not a debt. It doesn't normally show on your credit report unless you default on your rental agreement - in which case it may get reported as a collection or ultimately a judgment. Of course the same could be said about utility bills, yet some utilities do report your payment history regularly to the CRAs. But as a former landlord, I suspect it would be unusual for your landlord to do so as long as you pay on-time.

BTW: He can't claim your rent in bankruptcy... :-) (Though I suppose he could claim it in so far as the bankruptcy court could disolve the contract before it is completed. This might be appropriate if he's in a long-term lease and finds he can't make the payments...)

Also, So my question, what would happen to me if he did file bankruptcy? I don't want any impact to my credit but we would need joint credit to buy a house in the near future (assuming he gets a job).

His credit report will be trashed and yours should remain relatively unscathed. Some of his creditors may try to claim you are jointly responsible for his debts, even when you clearly are not, so additional diligence on your part will probably be necessary to fight such claims.

Also if you live in a community property states, any communal assets will be subject to seizure to satisfy his debts in bankruptcy (or otherwise). Fortunately most community property states also have larger exemptions that help offset this problem slightly.

Buying a house with his name on the loan will probably not be possible in the immediate future. If you do include him, it will at least cost you a few points in interest. If you don't need his income to qualify for the home loan, this may not matter - you can purchase the house in your name alone.

- Joel
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eyecolts,

You wrote, Reading this just makes me realize how fortunate I am in that it would be impossible for my DH to declare bankruptcy because he can't pay "his" debts. For good or bad, we're in it together...if bills can't be paid at our house, it's a joint problem, with joint solutions...regardless of which name an account may be in.

It's sweet that you trust your spouse so...

But trust me, it's quite possible for a spouse to declare bankruptcy without the consent or even knowledge of their partner. It's even possible with joint accounts for a spouse to work against your objectives, hide expenses and otherwise make it impossible to make any meaningful financial progress.

It's not that your DH can't declare bankruptcy - it's that you trust him not to put you or himself in that position... There's a big difference.

- Joel
Who was young in mind as well as body ... once.
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>We have no joint debts other than our rent and I am not having any problems paying my bills.
>
A little lite in your information. What type of 'bills' are we talking about? His part of the food expenses? His half of the utilities? Or is it his car payments/insurance. Or is it his desire to spend his money on the latest electronic gadgets and do it on credit?

You sound like a pretty uncaring wife if you're not willing shoulder his share of the household burden, but certainly if he has been an indescriminant spender, than maybe bankruptcy for him may teach him a valuable lesson on money management. It certainly won't help him in finding good employment which will ultimately impact you.

Sounds like a good marriage councellor would be in order. Sounds like there is more to this than your stuff/his stuff with cohabitation thrown in.

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Some interesting responses!

My husband and I married in our late 30's so we already had established separate finances. We both made enough money to handle our individual expenses with each of us making contributions to the household expenses. It may not work for some folks but it did for us.

My husband's experience is in technology but has had a hard time getting full time employment since the bust in 2001. I think he is also experiencing some depression and burnout. This is impacting his job hunting abilities and his interview presence, in my opinion. I have tried discussing this with him but he doesn't see it. So to be honest I do have some frustration and latent anger.

I have given him $3,000 from my savings but honestly do not want to see my savings depleted because he isn't willing to do what it takes to get income.

I bring home about $4,000 a much.. I contribute $1500 a month towards household (rent is $1000); I have $375 car payment (almost paid off); $385 LOC payment; $350 credit card payment; $300 personal trainer; $100 parking; $90 gas card; $60 cell phone; $200 in automatic transfer to savings; $175 lunches; $60 personal care; $25 prescriptions. I also usually end up paying $350 or so for groceries.

I think I'm doing enough. He keeps mentioning bankruptcy when I really think he needs to think of a way to pay his bills -- he needs about $1200 a month to cover his obligations -- so he can't work McDonalds.

I just wanted to know my options.
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I have given him $3,000 from my savings but honestly do not want to see my savings depleted because he isn't willing to do what it takes to get income.

THIS is very pertinent information.

If you have already funded him once, it is unlikely another cash infusion will help anything.

As far as his needed income: $10 an hour should net him around $1200 a month. If he already has work atire, $10/hour should be enough, and most temp agencies should be able to get him something at that rate. Anything over that would make things a little less tight.

impolite
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I think I'm doing enough. He keeps mentioning bankruptcy when I really think he needs to think of a way to pay his bills -- he needs about $1200 a month to cover his obligations -- so he can't work McDonalds.

----------------------------------

Working McDonald's is a heck of a lot better than bringing in nothing at all. If he at least could attempt to bring in something towards household bills, he should. Anything is better than nothing.


CaveGirl
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I agree with CaveGirl - a time I wouldn't have but I do in this case from personal experience. ANYTHING is better than zero. I wouldn't recommend McDonalds, probably not good for the ego if he is feeling low. But getting back to work would do wonders for the spirit. He may be elgible for education and worker retraining. If he was in high-tech sectors the Federal Government has opened up (quietly) funding that would have gone for NAFTA factory worker retraining to certain technical and marketing segments. I was eligible and was considering nursing as a route - Uncle Sam was going to pay all four years, student loans and bill roulette for four years.

Getting back into the job force should help with his spirits. I also agree that if you've given one bail out package already - your options are kind of limited - but filing for a BK - I wouldn't do it.

I have what is probably a painful LBYM recommendation, ditch the personal trainer - that's $300 a month you shouldn't be spending if you're thinking about a BK...
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Milligram,
Thanks. However, I'm NOT the one thinking about bankruptcy. My financial situation is just fine. I know I could learn a lot about LBYM; a very tough thing for me. Cheap clothes don't fit me well... Ask my sister!

My husband is the one who says if he can't get a job he will need to file bankruptcy. So I'm just asking if he does something crazy like that, how will it impact me.

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>I think I'm doing enough. He keeps mentioning bankruptcy when I really think he needs to think of a way to pay his bills -- he needs about $1200 a month to cover his obligations -- so he can't work McDonalds.
>
>I just wanted to know my options.
>
Indeed, you seem to be doing a lot. If he still has $1200 a month of personal bills, have the two of you sat down together to talk about what it would take to reduce those to zero since he is jobless at the moment. Does he need the car he's driving or can he sell it to pay off other (I assume back-)obligations? No job, no need for a car full time. He can drive you to work and use your car if he has an interview, for example. Does he have a personal trainer too? Seems like an extra expense when a couple is down to one income. Hey, working at an upscale restaurant with minimum wage plus tips should net him at least $1200 per month! Doing a second part time job (night or weekend security) should help him get out of his negative cash flow.

Are you feeling positive about his potential ability to get a job? If not, are you willing to support a husband for the rest of your life? If not, you need to do some serious soul-searching.

FYI, DH and I maintain separate accounts and 'lifestyles' and pool only what is joint. But it does become fluid from time to time, and we accept the fact that I may need to cover for him and him for me if the situation warrants. We alter our personal spending lifestyles accordingly. Just something that works for us.
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On a different note, my dear sisters' husband was unemployed for 8 years and still is looking for that 'ideal' job, not willing to take anything less. She finally got fed up and divorced him. She too enjoys 'upscale stuff' and found having a dead-beat husband cramping her style. She's now married to a fantastic (and employed) guy and the two of them are living happily together as they have similar goals and work ethics and work together at having their 'upscale stuff' together.

Again, depends what you are looking for in life.
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My husband is the one who says if he can't get a job he will need to file bankruptcy. So I'm just asking if he does something crazy like that, how will it impact me.

1. Impact on mortgage rates if he is on the mortgage, assuming that a mortgage is even possible.

2. Also, interest rates on other lines of credit where he is a party to that credit would probably be higher. This includes existing credit cards with a "universal default clause".

3. Any utility hookups where his name appears on the account would probably want a deposit.

4. Auto insurance policies where he is listed may have higher premiums.

5. It is possible that he would find it harder to qualify for some positions, particularly if those positions involve handling money or require handling of confidential information.

If I recall correctly, there is a "living under bankruptcy" board, and they may be able to provide more pertinent answers.
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he needs about $1200 a month to cover his obligations -- so he can't work McDonalds.

McDonalds no. But that's easily doable waiting tables. I consistantly pulled around that amount in tips at the last place I worked. And the new restaurant, well, I'm making quite a bit more than that.


TW
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<<I think I'm doing enough. He keeps mentioning bankruptcy when I really think he needs to think of a way to pay his bills -- he needs about $1200 a month to cover his obligations -- so he can't work McDonalds.

I just wanted to know my options.

>>


I'll join in the general agreement that your husband needs to find a job, pretty much any kind of job.

I might add that I was pretty much in your husband's situation at one time. After completing graduate school and getting just the kind of job I'd wanted and planned for, I discovered I the job made demands on me with which I was unable to cope. After a year and a half, I was fired, more or less to my relief.

I had a fair amount of savings, and I spent about three years mostly mourning my lost plans ---unwilling to do much about work at all. And doing a lot of hiking, climbing backpacking and such that was cheap and kept me sane.

When I ran out of money, I got a job, a rather poor one, and a year later a better job, eventually rebuilding my life in a different way.

It was difficult to abandon the work I was interested in and had prepared for with a lot of care. But eventually, necessity came knocking and I had to and was able to adapt.

I kind of like one person's post who suggested pragmatically working with your husband to prune him off his $1200/month lifestyle in order to confront him with the need to change and adapt. An analysis of what life would be like post bankruptcy might be worthwhile as well --- bankruptcy isn't going to produce any income for him to spend.


I have a cousin whose husband is a retired Air Force officer who's not adapted to finding a job in the civilian sector. She works full time and he has only worked sporadically, although he has pension income.


I hope you find some ideas on how to find a way to help your husband find a way back into the working world and avoid bankruptcy.



Seattle Pioneer

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Hey Nola;

I've read your thread with great interest, as I may end up in your boat sooner or later. My DW and I have seperate finances for various reasons. When they were together we never had any savings, and she said it was because I spent all the money. Now that we have seperate accounts I have plenty in savings and she hasn't a nickle. Your Honor, I rest my case.

Anyhow, her debt load has almost reached critical mass (the point where she can just barely make the payments). AND there is no real end to the spending in sight.

We have taken out consolidation loans in the past to help her with her debt, she has re-financed a car that we paid off to help her with her debt, I make more than she does so I cover a larger percentage of our "joint" bills. I feel as you do that I've done enough. I love her and hate to see her struggle, but it all has to stop someplace.

I can't offer any advice since I haven't solved my own problem yet, but just wanted you to know that you aren't suffering alone.

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Depending on where you located are and your income, you can qualify for a mortage without consideration of yoru DH's assets (and credit). The house would have to be held as your sole and separate property and DH would have to sign a quit claim.
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nolagirl,

You wrote, I think I'm doing enough. He keeps mentioning bankruptcy when I really think he needs to think of a way to pay his bills -- he needs about $1200 a month to cover his obligations -- so he can't work McDonalds.

First, congrats on the Hot Topic.

I'd say $1,200/month shouldn't be that difficult. My son makes $11/hour changing tires at Discount Tire, so I know there are jobs out there that would come close to meeting his needs that don't require a great deal of skill. Maybe if he'd just trim his budget a bit more and found a half-way decent job, even if it wasn't technical, maybe he'd be able to make ends meet.

- Joel
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