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Author: luv2earn Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 12878  
Subject: Re: I saw 911 today Date: 6/27/2004 12:03 PM
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One thing that has always amazed me about message boards and will continue to is that when a poster discusses and/or critizes a public figure or corporation, they are then personally insulted. This has happened with CCSand and BrerBear and is no surprise to me at all, and one I have learned to actually smile about, because I've realized that when it happens, it is usually because the people insulting the poster feel inadequate in their own views and knowledge. So, call me luv2burn instead of the poster name I chose and choose not to read my posts. It matters not a whit to me because I not only consider but now understand the source. But let's correct the errors made by a man who I doubt has seen the movie himself but chooses to quote others he agrees with:

luv2burn wrote:

I've never been in a theater where you could feel the anger, the frustration, and never experienced people shouting out "Liar", and to Condi Rice's statements "Lying b----".

The movie is apparently only playing in 417 theatres nationwide. It appears that most Americans aren't so gullible. Of course, Michael Moore doesn't think so:

Take his [Michael Moore's] description of his fellow countrymen and their blind pursuit of the American Dream: "They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet... in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug pricks.

“We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13583626_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-THE-AWKWARD-CONSCIENCE-OF-A-NATION-name_page.html

He sure thinks highly of his fellow countrymen, doesn't he? But hey, he'll just make a few more bucks off all those gullible people who pay to see his propaganda piece.


I assume you either didn't process that he included himself or just chose to ignore it. I believe he's correct and the educational results in our schools bear him out, don't they? That you feel insulted shows how closely you must identify with what he is saying. I wasn't insulted at all and didn't feel it was a personal affront, or the man was insulting himself as well. He's speaking in generalities, CCSand, not making personal attacks. I wish posters would follow suit.

Fortunately, it doesn't require much intelligence to deconstruct Michael Moore's lies, although there are many intelligent people who have already done so:

Moore spends much time on Bin Laden family members flying out of the US when the rest of America was grounded, right after 9-11. Showing a clip of Khalil Bin Laden at the airport, a chyron on the screen cleverly reads "days after 9-11." But, how many days? In fact, while some Bin Ladens did get to fly out early, most of the Bin Laden family flew out of America, after the rest of America could already fly. Moore says the FBI was not allowed to interview them, but in fact, the FBI was allowed to interview them and chose not to. That is disturbing, but it's not what Moore "reported".

[I'll bet he didn't report that it was Richard Clarke's decision to fly them out.]


Why did you not include this, showing that it was not solely Richard Clarke's decision????? Hmmmmm.....

Excerpts from Clarke's testimony before the 9-11 commission. The ending of the question to Clarke is posed by Commissioner Roemer who is a former House Representative.

ROEMER: And I'd like to ask you more about this -- to allow a plane of Saudis to fly out of the country. And when most other planes were grounded, this plane flew from ! the United States back to Saudi Arabia. I'd like to know why you made that decision, who was on this plane, and if the FBI ever had the opportunity to interview those people.
MR. CLARKE: You're absolutely right that the Saudi Arabian government did not cooperate with us significantly in the fight against terrorism prior to 9/11. Indeed, it didn't really cooperate until after bombs blew up in Riyadh. Now, as to this controversy about the Saudi evacuation aircraft, let me -- let me tell you everything I know, which is that some -- in the days following 9/11, whether it was on 9/12 or 9/15 I can't tell you, we were in a constant crisis management meeting that had started the morning of 9/11 and ran for days on end. We were making lots of decisions, but we were coordinating them with all the agencies through the video teleconference procedure. Someone -- and I wish I could tell you who, but I don't know who -- someone brought to that group a proposal that we authorize a request from the Saudi embassy. The Saudi embassy had apparently said that they feared for the lives of Saudi citizens, because they thought there would be retribution against Saudis in the United States as it became obvious to Americans that this attack was essentially done by Saudis, and that there were even Saudi citizens in the United States who were part of the bin Laden family, which is a v! ery large family -- very large family. The Saudi embassy, therefore, asked for these people to be evacuated; the same sort of thing that we do all the time in similar crises, evacuating Americans. The request came to me and I refused to approve it. I suggested that it be routed to the FBI and that the FBI look at the names of the individuals who were going to be on the passenger manifest and that they approve it or not. I spoke with the at that time the number-two person in the FBI, Dale Watson, and asked him to deal with this issue. The FBI then approved -- after some period of time, and I can't tell you how long -- approved the flight. Now, what degree of review the FBI did of those names, I cannot tell you. How many people there are on the plane, I cannot tell you. But I have asked since, were there any individuals on that flight that in retrospect the FBI wishes they could have interviewed in this country, and the answer I've been given is no, that there was no one who left on that flight who the FBI now wants to interview.

MR. ROEMER: Despite the fact that we don't know if Dale Watson interviewed them in the first place.

MR. CLARKE: I don't think they were ever interviewed in this country.

MR. ROEMER: So they were not interviewed here. We have all their names. We don't know if there has been any follow-up to interview those people that were here and flown out of the country.

MR. CLARKE: The last time I asked that question, I was informed the FBI still had no desire to interview any of these people.

MR. ROEMER: Would you have a desire to interview some of these people that --

MR. CLARKE: I don't know who they are.

MR. ROEMER: We don't know who they are.

Page 28

MR. CLARKE: I don't know who they are. The FBI knew who they were, because they --

MR. ROEMER: Given your confidence and your statements on the FBI, what's your level of comfort with this?

MR. CLARKE: Well, I will tell you in particular about the ones that get the most attention here in the press, and they are members of the bin Laden family. I was aware for some time that there were members of the bin Laden family living in the United States. And, let's see, in open session I can say that I was very well aware of the members of the bin Laden family and what they were doing in the United States, and the FBI was extraordinarily well aware of what they were doing in the United States. And I was informed by the FBI that none of the members of the bin Laden family, this large clan, were doing anything in this country that was illegal or that raised their suspicions. And I believe the FBI had very good information and good sources of information about what the members of the bin Laden family were doing.


...

And while there's plenty of factual material to use against the Saudis, Moore fabricates on that, too. He claims that the US Secret Service's Uniformed Division protects only the Saudi Embassy, no others. That's just plain false.

No..that's just plain false, sir. He claimed nothing. He asked the Secret Service, who showed up to question him while he was standing across the street from the Saudi embassy, if they normally were assigned to foreign embassies and they answered 'no'. Please make sure people you quote know what they're talking about. I sat and watched yesterday and that's what happened. But apparently you chose to just believe it because the writer said what you wanted to hear.

Since Moore lies about little things like that, what else has he lied about in this master docu-fakery?

Since your source was incorrect, I would ask you the same question about your source. And I would challenge you to go see it for yourself so you can know what the movie really says and shows instead of parroting someone else's opinions about it.

...

And that's just from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism in May 1945. A short word of advice: In general, it's highly unwise to quote Orwell if you are already way out of your depth on the question of moral equivalence. It's also incautious to remind people of Orwell if you are engaged in a sophomoric celluloid rewriting of recent history.

Whatever 'rewriting of history' Moore did in your opinion, it would pale to white in comparison to the rewriting of history the illegal invasion of Iraq has done and will continue to do. Ask the military in the movie (which you apparently haven't seen yourself but are relying on favorite quotes of your authors) who were shown on Morphine for the rest of their nerve-damaged lives or the grieving mother who once flew the flag every day and now is screaming in agony at Bush or the Iraqi mother screaming out to Allah on why the Americans are doing this to her family.

**************

Unfortunately, I believe that Moore will be preaching to the choir.

Well, duh. The audience is self-selected.


It's a shame that people like yourself choose not to go. That is also selection...and denial, which is not only a river in Egypt.


We already knew Michael Moore Hates America. And you can see the trailer here:

http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/trailer_sm.html


'We' knew no such thing. Some of us know that, like us, Michael Moore is very upset about the kidnapping of America by the Neocons and we each, on our own ways, some on message boards and some by making documentaries, are trying to take it back before it's too late and too much innocent blood has been shed. And 'folks' like you do your part to make sure it continues on. That doesn't make you great Americans and it doesn't make us unpatriotic. Quite the reverse, in my opinion.

*******************



luv2earn
Michael Moore was way too kind.
==================================
That's it. You're lightyears over the top.

In the past I have tried to rationalize and convince myself that you simply held controversial views, usually at odds with my own. But perhaps still worth keeping up with.

However, with all the other writers here with whom I can't keep up with already for a lack of time to read, I have precious little time for such banal, vapid, shallow ruminations.

Sayonara and good luck.



Am I supposed to feel bad about this? Sorry, my sorrow is reserved for the victims of the Iraqi war that, even today, is causing death and torment for innocent Iraqis and young American military. By the way, the Sunday a.m. news shows have been talking about the impending necessity for a draft. But I do find it interesting that you seem to have followed my postings when I can't really remember reading any of yours. They must have been quite banal, vapid and shallow?

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