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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 189956  
Subject: OT: Linux trial Date: 12/28/2012 7:59 PM
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Last night I downloaded the Mint Linux distro with Cinnamon desktop (http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php ). It's easy to burn it to a DVD and boot it on a Windows based PC and give it a whirl.

While I'm agnostic when it comes to operating systems (and tend to play with a number of them at any given time), I have to think that this flavor would convince most Windows or Mac users that there is a valid alternative to buying a modern OS and pile of software.

As long as you don't "install" it, it should do anything to your system (though be aware that it runs slow off a DVD).

Jeff
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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183170 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 12/31/2012 3:24 PM
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I haven't yet played with Mint, but I've seen similar comments made about Ubuntu (which I have downloaded and tested out).

I find Ubuntu, Windows, and OS X to be usable, and adequate for most tasks. But the average user doesn't think like that.

They want to know who they can call when they need help. They want to know if it will run Microsoft Office. And they want to know that they can pick up a new printer or scanner at their local Walmart/Costco/Staples, and have it work with their computer.

For those folks, no flavor of Linux is good enough.

I am somewhat surprised that none of the major PC makers has forked their own brand of Linux. Dell would seem an obvious choice, since they also sell Dell-branded peripherals like printers and scanners, and they already have a large support establishment in place. They even offer Linux. They should brand their own version (call it Dellnix, perhaps), and offer it as a discounted alternative on all their PCs. As I understand things, Microsoft is now charging close to $70 for so-called Royalty OEMs. Dell could probably make more money offering PCs for a $40 or $50 discount for customers who opt for Dellnix over Windows.

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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183176 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 12/31/2012 7:38 PM
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Steven,

Mint is actually based on Ubantu, but the Cinnamon desktop is so parallel to Mac/Windows that it has a minimal learning curve.

But you are absolutely right. Trying to convince the average "user" that Libre or Open Office is "as good" as Office is not going to happen.

Microsoft has been accused of having a monopoly on PC operating systems. There are governments which have made tens of millions of dollars suing them. In fact, they don't have a product monopoly - it is the user who builds a mental monopoly for Microsoft products. Similarly, Apple bigots refuse to believe that there are valid alternatives - especially in a Unix-like system with a GUI, never realizing that that is exactly what they are using when they boot up their Mac.

Android consists of a kernel based on Linux kernel version 2.6 and, from Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich onwards, version 3.x. So while people turn their nose up at the complexity of Linux, they are likely using it without knowing it.

We have been brainwashed (or have self-hypnotized ourselves) into the fiction that there are no viable alternatives to "the monopoly" :-)

I am not a Linux affectionato and in fact most of my systems are Windows, but I also don't rule it out and one of my "Windows" systems dual boots into Linux (and I have one Mac which is primarily used by my technophobic wife).

Jeff

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Author: JeanDavid Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183177 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 12/31/2012 7:52 PM
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I haven't yet played with Mint, but I've seen similar comments made about Ubuntu (which I have downloaded and tested out).

I find Ubuntu, Windows, and OS X to be usable, and adequate for most tasks. But the average user doesn't think like that.


I think you are right about that.

They want to know who they can call when they need help. They want to know if it will run Microsoft Office. And they want to know that they can pick up a new printer or scanner at their local Walmart/Costco/Staples, and have it work with their computer.

For those folks, no flavor of Linux is good enough.


I am not sure that is true or not. I am sure that if that is the common perception, that is enough to keep many people from trying anything new, even though UNIX (ancestor of Linux) preceded Windows by about 15 years, and benefited from all that experience.

I have never had a problem attaching peripherals to PC boxes whether they ran Windows 95, Windows XP Home, or now Windows 7 Professional. I upgrade Windows only when my income tax program will not run on the one I have. And that goes for internals, like additional RAM, hard drives, and so on too.

But I never had any trouble getting stuff at Circuit City, Best Buy, etc., for Linux either, starting with Red Hat Linux 5.0, 5.2, 6, 7.3, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3, 5, or 6, or CentOS 4 or 5 either.

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Author: JeanDavid Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183178 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 12/31/2012 7:58 PM
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I haven't yet played with Mint, but I've seen similar comments made about Ubuntu (which I have downloaded and tested out).

I find Ubuntu, Windows, and OS X to be usable, and adequate for most tasks. But the average user doesn't think like that.


I think you are right about that.

They want to know who they can call when they need help. They want to know if it will run Microsoft Office. And they want to know that they can pick up a new printer or scanner at their local Walmart/Costco/Staples, and have it work with their computer.

For those folks, no flavor of Linux is good enough.


I am not sure that is true or not. I am sure that if that is the common perception, that is enough to keep many people from trying anything new, even though UNIX (ancestor of Linux) preceded Windows by about 15 years, and benefited from all that experience.

I have never had a problem attaching peripherals to PC boxes whether they ran Windows 95, Windows XP Home, or now Windows 7 Professional. I upgrade Windows only when my income tax program will not run on the one I have. And that goes for internals, like additional RAM, hard drives, and so on too.

But I never had any trouble getting stuff at Circuit City, Best Buy, etc., for Linux either, starting with Red Hat Linux 5.0, 5.2, 6, 7.3, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3, 5, or 6, or CentOS 4 or 5 either.

[Oops. Finger slipped before...]

Also, I find that instead of Windows Office, that openoffice.org and now libreoffice work perfectly. I even ran IBM DB2 dbms on one of my machines for a while because I just could not get Microsoft Access to work worth a d@mn. And I do know about relational database management systems and SQL. I even designed one for UNIX back in the 1970s before they were commonly available. On Linux, I run postgreSQL.

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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183180 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 12/31/2012 8:48 PM
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Back in the "olde days" few people used PC's. The screens were intimidating with their text dialogs. Then along came the Lisa/Mac and the world changed as Microsoft copied Apple. Mere mortals began to use PC's.

Those who used Unix generally were envisioned as intelligent anti-social men with beards who stared about 30 degrees above the horizontal plane and were prone to drooling.


Th internet was still a command line based text thing until the Swiss developed the World Wide Web at CERN and even more people started to use PC's in order to use the web.

Slowly X-windows was developed, but Unix/Linus had never been marketed and most who had heard of it were intimidated by an operating system which they thought was better suited to the characters on the TV show "The Big Bang Theory".

This is no longer true, but an entire generation of PC users has kept this perception as part of their mindset. When offered a free operating system which will work with nearly an hardware and comes with a suite of software cloning their favorites, they ignore the offer as if it doesn't exist.

Oh - as far as support? Many of the commercial distros which charge for the privilege of supplying free software justify their existence by offering support. This of course flies in the face of most people perceiving that the Microsoft software which comes with their PC is free and who have never had the "pleasure" of telephoning Microsoft for support.

Jeff

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183182 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/1/2013 10:42 AM
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Similarly, Apple bigots refuse to believe that there are valid alternatives…

Yes, they do. Likewise there are Linux and Unix bigots who turn up their nose at Mac, even though it's a POSIX-compliant certified Unix with a command line in which any Linux or Unix user would feel right at home. Macs even come with a huge collection of open-source apps including Apache, PostgreSQL, SQLite, Python, etc. etc.

especially in a Unix-like system with a GUI, never realizing that that is exactly what they are using when they boot up their Mac.

Since OS X is a certified Unix distro, I find it odd to call it "Unix-like." That's a bit like calling my Toyota Corolla a "Toyota-like" car.

e have been brainwashed (or have self-hypnotized ourselves) into the fiction that there are no viable alternatives to "the monopoly" :-)

Depends on how you define viable. The average user wants to be able to buy stuff that "just works." You can buy a Mac or Windows PC today, knowing that there's a broad selection of easy-to-find and well-supported hardware & software. But without serious vendor support, there really is a qualitative difference in the user experience between Mint/Cinnamon and Windows or OS X. A user experienced with either of those operating systems can far more easily move to a new system with those OSes than to any other OS.

A Windows (or Mac) user who switches to Mint/Cinnamon/LibreOffice will have to learn a new OS and a new Office suite, and a new mail client, probably a new browser (since neither IE nor Safari are available for Linux), and hope/pray that they can find drivers for their peripherals. And if they have a problem with that new HP printer or Epson scanner, tech support from those companies for a user running Mint is probably nonexistent.

Even if a Linux distro comes with all the apps they need, there's still going to be that learning curve that they won't have if they stick with their familiar old OS. People will force themselves to learn a new system only if it provides some significant benefit over the old system.

Finally, lets not forget the network effect. There mere fact that there are lots of Windows users means that if someone gets stuck, they probably have a huge number of friends to whom they can turn to for help, and an almost endless supply of fee-based help.

(I was once a guest speaker at a Genealogical society meeting, where I discussed and demoed various family tree apps for Windows and Mac. An elderly woman in the back of the room said she used a Linux computer her adult son (an engineer) had built for her. She wanted to know about genealogy apps for Linux. And in a room with 100 genealogy geeks, not a single one of us knew of such an app.)

(When Bing first came out, I wrote a post saying that I'd already learned all the tricks to make Google do what I want, like restricting a search to a specific host or domain, or doing unit conversions and math from the Google search box. And that I wouldn't be willing to switch to Bing if the search results were only slightly better, because it wouldn't be worth my time to learn a whole new syntax to get results that were just 5% or 10% better. Bing search results will have to be perhaps 50% better than Google before I'll switch. And I seriously doubt Bing search results will ever be better than Google's.)

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183183 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/1/2013 10:48 AM
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But I never had any trouble getting stuff at Circuit City, Best Buy, etc., for Linux either…

Are you suggesting that a shopper at those stores will see some kind of "works with Linux" badge on all the hard drives, printers, scanners, etc. at those stores?

Sure, there are 4rd-party suppliers of drivers. If you're a UNIX user, you're probably familiar with the CUPS family of printer drivers: http://cups.org

But I doubt HP will help you if you can't get CUPS working probably with your new HP printer.

(I think the main reason Apple hired Michael Sweet and bought the CUPS source code was to ensure that a wide swath of printers would enjoy support from Apple-authorized drivers, even when printer manufactures themselves don't bother to update those drivers, or even write them at all.)

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Author: Kurtv Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183185 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/1/2013 11:24 AM
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Even if a Linux distro comes with all the apps they need, there's still going to be that learning curve that they won't have if they stick with their familiar old OS. People will force themselves to learn a new system only if it provides some significant benefit over the old system.

I started using Ubuntu (Gutsy Gibbon) before moving rather quickly to Hardy Heron because it was the LTS (long term support) version. I like the stabilty afforded by that version. I was dual booting my desktop till I moved from Windows XP Pro to 7 Pro and wanted to dual boot both Windows OS's.

But I purchased a netbook with Windows 7 Starter and found it terribly slow. I set it up to dual boot (through Wubi) the latest LTS release, Lucid. Boot times were cut in half, my wifi network was immediately recognized and there was even support for my circa 2005 Samsung laser printer. It's now running 12.04LTS. These days I only boot to Windows to allow updates to run.

And I only recently purchased my first Andriod smart phone. It amazes me how people take to their phones but still avoid trying "other" OS's on their computers. It's almost like they don't even realize that they ARE learning a new OS on there phone and tablet. ;-)

Kurt

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183188 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/1/2013 11:37 AM
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I was dual booting my desktop till I moved from Windows XP Pro to 7 Pro and wanted to dual boot both Windows OS's.

Why not move to a triple-boot configuration?

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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183189 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/1/2013 11:55 AM
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I wasn't trying to set up a debate with the OP on the nuances of Linux, but simply to point out for those who had not yet tried the operating system that this was a safe and easy way to find out if they liked (or could deal with) Linux.

The reason I mentioned the Mint/Cinnamon combination in the OP was that it was Ubantu based (with all the application support that implies), but the GUI was similar enough to the Mac/Windows "standard" that transitioning to a full Linux system for a novice would be a minimal learning curve. Using either Open Office or Libra for someone familiar with Office is not a major stretch, nor is using Firefox that difficult for someone used to IE or Safari. Are they identical? Of course not. Are they similar beyond functional equivalent? I would say so.

I guess I take things for granted because, in much the same fashion that on some foreign cars I've rented, there are somewhat different controls, I've moved between operating systems, applications and browsers so many times that if I can't find the "control" I'm looking for, I know that a bit of searching is likely to have it show up in a reasonable place. Steve is right that the Mac is a Unix box, it's just that I never bothered using the command line on a Mac.

Part of Microsoft's whacko Windows 8 front end is to allow phone users to easily transition to their surface tablet and then on to their PC OS's (or I guess they are hoping the reverse as well) through use of a common interface (which coincidently points towards the Microsoft Store (more important for the tablets than the others). In my case, the first thing I did was load a utility to put the "Start" button back and to make it look/feel like Windows 7. In using an operating system (or any part of the "computer system") the interface between me and the system is of vital importance (be that interface the OS GUI, my monitors, mouse or keyboard). In that context, the particular flavor of Linux I suggested seemed to me to be the easiest interface to use for Mac/Windows users.

Jeff

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Author: Kurtv Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183193 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/1/2013 1:26 PM
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Why not move to a triple-boot configuration?


I tried to figure it out but was unsuccessful. I had to use my Acronis disk image to repair my trashed installation more that once before giving up.

Kurt

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Author: JeanDavid Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183194 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/1/2013 1:35 PM
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Are you suggesting that a shopper at those stores will see some kind of "works with Linux" badge on all the hard drives, printers, scanners, etc. at those stores?

Once in a while I see items on the web that are stated to work with a large Linux distro, typically Red Hat, Slackware, or one of those. But it is not usual. Most things do work, though, or I have been terribly lucky.

Most recently I went to Best Buy and got a Seagate 1 TByte SATA internal hard drive and two WD Passport 750 GByte USB3 external drives. I plugged them in and they worked.

Sure, there are 4rd-party suppliers of drivers. If you're a UNIX user, you're probably familiar with the CUPS family of printer drivers: http://cups.org

But I doubt HP will help you if you can't get CUPS working probably with your new HP printer.


I have no idea about HP help. I had an HP tape drive that would not work with Linux, but it turned out not to be a problem with the drive). It turned out that the default mode of running the drive was not specified and wrong for the machine. The documentation never mentioned that configuration at all, so it took some time figuring out that it needed to be set and how to set it. It was a lousy drive anyway and I replaced it with a VXA-1. I currently have a VXA-2 in that 13 year old machine.

But when I was running Windows 95, a also got impossibly bad help from Microsoft for their problems. So to say there is less help for Linux does not agree with my experience. The help with Windows 95 was so bad I switched to Linux in about 1998.


As a practical matter, the only time I had trouble with CUPS, it was because I was running Red Hat Linux 9 on one machine and Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3on the other, and the versions of CUPS were incompatible. I fixed that by upgrading from RHL9 to CentOS 4 and it just booted up and worked.

For me, Linux as been pretty much plug and play for about 10 years now.

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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183197 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/1/2013 2:38 PM
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I loaded the Mint distro on the DVD in my Dell XPS 8500 and it picked up both graphics boards (MB graphics is disabled) and the two different model LCD's on the first (but not the NEC 50" plasma on the second graphics board, but this was just fooling around and I didn't try very hard). It picked up the HP Officejet Pro 8600 MFP/fax/scan, an older external USB Seagate "FreeAgent" HDD and a new Seagate USB3 "Backup Plus" 3TB drive. It found my NAS and a couple of PC's on the network.

I tried to install it as a dual boot on my Windows 8 box and when it hiccuped, decided to revisit it at another time and install it on a PC that is not my main workstation :-). Lack of time intervenes (I am leaving on a three month trip starting on Thursday, so the last thing I want to do is start screwing around with my equipment before I leave - Murphy being an optimist and all). That said, it seemed to find just about everything other than my weirdest monitor.

If you've never played with Linux and have a spare PC laying around, all I was saying was that this particular flavor seems the most benign for those who might otherwise balk.

Jeff
(For those who have the slightest interest in what I'll be doing for the next few months, I generally post my progress periodically on METAR like this:
http://boards.fool.com/ot-jeff-goes-east-prequel-30456592.as...

It's also the reason why I will probably be AWOL for a while from this board)

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Author: Matt1344 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183221 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/2/2013 1:07 AM
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"I tried to figure it out but was unsuccessful."

Hi Kurt,

I'm just starting to look at a dual boot option so I'm just listing the first two links I'm looking into. I have systems on 3 different drives, an SSD(W7 Pro) and two HDDs(Win7 Home Premium & XP SP3) and was wondering if I can just hook them all up and select from them. Would be nice if the following software, EasyBCD , could recognize them all and set up a menu :-) Who could be so fortunate! Probably have to re-install two of them :-/ I don't know if the links are worth anything to you. Still confusing for me but you are likely more familiar with this stuff :-)

http://www.multibooters.co.uk/multiboot.html

I got that link from:

http://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/#

A first very quick look appears that this program can give at least 3 boot options on a single menu, http://neosmart.net/wiki/display/EBCD/Windows+XP , i.e. XP, Vista and W7. It also works with Linux so maybe that could be a third choice or 4th???

Have fun if you decide to check it out if this is new to you also.

All the best,

Ken

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Author: halco Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183225 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/2/2013 6:57 AM
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I've tried Linux several times over the last 7 or 8 yrs or so, the last being Ubuntu about 3 yrs ago. I loved the look of the GUI and the speed and didn't have too much trouble, if any, connecting peripherals such as dual-monitors, printer, and modem and I had no problem using Open Office or other Linux versions of common Windows programs.

My problem was always with other programs that I use a lot but which had no good Linux version, if any at all, such as Macro Express (I love using macros for various tasks), Movie Collector (for cataloging my ever-growing movie collection), MetaStock (stock charting program), and Total Commander (amazingly versatile file manager). I did a lot of googling but couldn't find replacements anywhere near as sophisticated for these particular programs that I use pretty much everyday.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183233 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/2/2013 7:02 PM
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It amazes me how people take to their phones but still avoid trying "other" OS's on their computers. It's almost like they don't even realize that they ARE learning a new OS on there phone and tablet. ;-)

In fact, as I understand it there are only two major OSes now, Windows and Unix, and Unix is the big seller of the two. (Android and OSX are both Unix, and I think iOS is too.)

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Author: exeter17 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183241 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/5/2013 12:56 PM
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I'm not a Apple lover or a Windows lover (as you both know) but I will say something about Android based phones.

The "normal" inDUHvidual wants a button to push to update the phone (ala Iphone). I play with the Android phones and the Acticesynch is a bit funny to get working 100% of the time. I believe this is mostly due to phones having gingerbread, honeycomb, ICS and JB on different hardware.

With an iOS device I jsut have it use Autodiscover and it "just works" I have 3 month old Galaxy S3 phones that are on 4.0.4 since VZ locked the bootloader but I have 4 year old 3GSs that run iOS 6 (it runs like a slug...but it does run).

I agree it really is up to the user experience.

One more thing - yes I know you can root the phone and get JB on the Galaxy S3 and other phones. My point is with so many users and BYOD in my office its MUCH easier to support only the iOS devices.

And this is coming from a ex-hardcore BB user!

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183248 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/5/2013 10:45 PM
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I'm not a Apple lover or a Windows lover (as you both know) but I will say something about Android based phones.

The "normal" inDUHvidual wants a button to push to update the phone (ala Iphone).


What do you mean by "update the phone"?

If you're talking about a new version of the OS, apparently pushing a button is too much work - it updates automatically, and turning that feature off (desirable if, say, you've rooted the phone, because some vendors unroot and block the most popular rooting exploit with each update) is actually mildly difficult.

If you're talking about something else, I have a bunch of stuff syncing between two Android devices and my Windows PC on a regular basis. Unfortunately there's this big push for "cloud computing" spread across the planet - if I wanted to do exactly the same thing using *someone else's server* I have a choice of I think five dozen apps that will each do the job all on its own (the main difference being whose server I use), but to do it all by myself (not using someone else's server) takes an app on the Android devices to make the connection possible, another app on the Android devices so I can manually initiate sync, and an app on the Windows devices for manual initiation and scheduled sync.

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Author: exeter17 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183268 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/7/2013 8:21 PM
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Every Android I played with I had to got to settings and force a update. The iphone pops an ! on the gear icon to update.

I have several new Android phones that have ancient 2.2 and for Androids the carrier (ATT/Vz/Sprint) has to approve them for installation (again, I am glossing over the jailbreak)

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183270 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/8/2013 3:47 AM
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Every Android I played with I had to got to settings and force a update.

Hm, that's odd. Every Android I've done much with, it took considerable effort to prevent an update. (Delaying one for a couple hours was easy. Most people won't do this for more than about 20 hours max - and then the update happens.)

That's four phones from three manufacturers plus the Nook Color.

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Author: exeter17 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183319 of 189956
Subject: Re: OT: Linux trial Date: 1/11/2013 10:48 AM
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Ever used VZ? They like to lock a lot of stuff :(

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