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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 757391  
Subject: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 9:03 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/04/national/04SLAV.html

The reparations issue is gaining momentum even though we are finally leaving the decade of the victim behind. The article above points out that you'd have to take reparations money from citizens none of whom took part in slavery. It fails to point out that it would also be paying that money to blacks who are all several generations from slavery themselves.

Blacks compare this to the Japanese imprisonement during the war, and the Jewish Holocaust, both of which paid reparations, but fails to note that reparations were paid to victims not ancestors.

Personally I'd favor reparations for any former slave, and it is a matter of some shame that it wasn't done. However, it wasn't, and the issue is done...unless any former slaves still live.

If this goes through, why don't WE start squeezing money out of England for their two wars against us, not to mention the Germans, and when the Indians get done with us there won't be any money left at all. Good Lord, we actually sent money to Europe after the war, isn't it time the French paid up?

It seems to me that Welfare has left the impression that a check SHOULD be written wherever unfairness exists. How practical is that? Why, as Mark Twain pointed out, there isn't a patch of land on the planet thats in possession of its rightful owner.

mark
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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40763 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 10:01 AM
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"The reparations issue is gaining momentum even though we are finally leaving the decade of the victim behind. The article above points out that you'd have to take reparations money from citizens none of whom took part in slavery. It fails to point out that it would also be paying that money to blacks who are all several generations from slavery themselves."

Well, if we are going to settle 'Civil WAr' debts, since it was a war of rebellion, with the southern states in civil disobedience, I'm sure that we can go after all the former residents of the south to pay damages to the folks (and descendants) of the north. That means, that we want the southern states to compensate all the survivors of the north, the families who lost men during the war, and their progeny.
Matters not that ALL residents of said southern states may not have participated. That they are now residents is more than sufficient.

I figure the damages would be equivalent to about what the 'slave' reparations would be. Of course, descendents of residents, say those who were there in 1966, who moved north, would also have to pay their fair share of the compensation. Thus, 'freed' slaves and all their descendents who lived in the south but now live north would be required to pay their fair share to northern descendents, who had to put down the illegal civil action.

This gets absurd when you start looking for 'damages' generations later.

My great great grandparents were in the war. One was injured. Both lost lots of 'income' from their normal jobs as they were off fighting the war. Obviously, their families suffered from 'mental distress' not knowing if their breadwinners would ever come back. So we also seek punative damages of a couple trillion. plus interest.

And of course, all the land here belonged to the American Indians, and a lot of it was acquired through dubious means, so 'to set things right', we all simply deed over our property to them, and move out.

and on and on





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Author: PMcMullenCT Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40764 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 10:05 AM
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Thus, 'freed' slaves and all their descendents who lived in the south but now live north would be required to pay their fair share to northern descendents, who had to put down the illegal civil action.

We would also then need to quantify the monetary value of generations of affirmative action programs which targeted financial gain towards minorities. That amount should be deducted from any reparations, as payments already made.



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Author: FanoPlane One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40765 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 10:11 AM
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mhtyler wrote:

Good Lord, we actually sent money to Europe after the war, isn't it time the French paid up?
************************

The French paid in advance: Revolutionary War.

Statue of Liberty was a nice gesture, too.

Fan

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40789 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 11:45 AM
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Alright, I'll go evens with the Frenchies. They did save the day back then. I wonder when they started disliking us?

mark

mhtyler wrote:

Good Lord, we actually sent money to Europe after the war, isn't it time the French paid up?
************************

The French paid in advance: Revolutionary War.

Statue of Liberty was a nice gesture, too.

Fan

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40840 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 3:29 PM
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My ancestors on both sides were feudal peasants working on the estates of princes in Northern Germany. I am actually only a couple of generations away from being serf myself. My mother and her family came here from Germany in 1928. My grandfather was a coal miner in Germany until the depression hit Germany (first)in 1928. My Father's family were poor white lumberjacks in Northern Minnesota and my father grew up in a log cabin. I guarantee you none of them owned slaves. His grandfather was an indentured servant that ran away because the farmer whipped him every day. I should demand that the German goverment pay me reparations for all the toil the my ancestors did for their Lords and Masters on those feudal estates. Why, they were bound to the land and traded like cattle! When you see a movie about knights and royalty, or read a book about it, if you look off in the distance and into the fields and see the bent over shapes of ragged worn out peasants slaving away in the fields, those are my ancestors. No royalty here. The litteral translation of my last name means, "smelly guy." We probably smelled because we slept with the pigs. - Art

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40850 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 4:09 PM
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There is an interesting article in the latest Vanity Fair magazine on reparations. It is written by the commie Christopher Hitchens with whom I have nothing in common except our loathing of Bill Clinton. However, he makes some good points in favor of reparations. One point is that the money won't go to individuals but into some kind of foundation that would address itself to improving, among other things, the quality of education of blacks. At least in Hitchens' plan none of the money would end up being spent on gifts for Jesse Jackson's mistresses or to pay off Al Sharpton's law suit.

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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40853 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 4:30 PM
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However, he makes some good points in favor of reparations. One point is that the money won't go to individuals but into some kind of foundation that would address itself to improving, among other things, the quality of education of blacks.

A bad idea is a bad idea no matter how you dress it up. Fostering the idea that anything is still owed to the descendants of slaves is a bad idea. It only treats currently living people unfairly, including the proposed recipients. Why is this not blindingly obvious? I personally would feel insulted if some well meaning sob said I was owed something that was coerced away from my fellow citizens simply because of some ancient injustice visited on an ancestor. That ancient injustice may well have made me stronger and better than I would otherwise have been.

1HF


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Author: HamletsMill Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40860 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 5:22 PM
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"generations of affirmative action programs which targeted financial gain towards minorities."

Would you care to enumerate what affirmative action programs have existed over generations?

The only one that I can think of --- and it would be a far reach to describe as an affirmative action --- is the various farm subsidy programs that have been in place since the 1930's.

Hmmm, I suppose the Homestead Act of 1870 could qualify - as it was targeted towards an economic minority, the landless poor and those were in the main ethnic immigrants; and it discriminated against the already established land-owners who were prohibited from participating in the program…


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Author: wycowboy2 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40873 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 6:33 PM
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Glad you posted that.

I need to notify tribal council that we too are entitled to more than $300 per person from the Great White Father in Washington. That is unless you have objections to First Nation members receiving what is due us. Not so long ago we asked Mr. Babbitt to please reconcile our trust accounts. He had several years to accomplish this task (US court ordered, I might add). It went no where. We are missing $2.4 Billion dollars from our trust accounts. This was money owed to our tribes for lands acquired (stolen is too harsh a word) since English first came upon our land.

We hold no ill will or disrepect for the negro slaves. But there are no more of them alive and so much time has passed that I cannot see them receiving their money before we do. And that is unfortunate for them as well as us.

H. George Runs Bear,
Ojibwa

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40878 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 7:50 PM
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"We hold no ill will or disrepect for the negro slaves. But there are no more of them alive and so much time has passed that I cannot see them receiving their money before we do. And that is unfortunate for them as well as us. "

I think you may have missed my point, which is not: "the money line forms to the right".

In your case, you appear to have an agreement that has been broken, which could be pursued through legal action.

I certainly agree that we should honor the terms of our agreements.

mark

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40879 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 7:56 PM
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A bad idea is a bad idea no matter how you dress it up. "


Reparations can only be a good idea if YOU are on the receiving end of the check. It is what Mark Twain called a "corn pone" opinion:

"Tell me where a man gets his corn pone, and I'll tell you what his opinions are."

Its as simple as that. Welfare and affirmative action have spawned the idea that all problems and evils can be corrected through compensation. They can't.

Affirmative action has almost destroyed the post office and turned it into something that can barely deliver junk mail.

mark

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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40882 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 8:06 PM
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Reparations can only be a good idea if YOU are on the receiving end of the check.

Even then, they can be a bad idea. Perpetuating the notion that "help" is needed to "level the playing field" only serves to keep the recipients dependent. Unless that dependency is a good idea, then reparations are bad for the recipients.

It is what Mark Twain called a "corn pone" opinion:

"Tell me where a man gets his corn pone, and I'll tell you what his opinions are."


Good one. I'll have to remember that.

1HappyFool


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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40892 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 8:51 PM
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"Reparations can only be a good idea if YOU are on the receiving end of the check."

I suspect all it means is that after 150 years, that family still doesn't get it - this is the land of opportunity, not the land of entitlement.

And probably never will.

Bad attitude to have, but, then again, the Hispanic immigrants, (many of whom came from subjugated native populations along the way in history), seem to have kicked butt, and now are the fastest growing 'minority' generating 10 times the wealth/net worth of the next largest and formerly largest minority.

By playing 'victim', all the so called descendents of black slaves have done is created a lot of problems for themselves.

Companies don't hire 'victims'. They hire people who have taken advantage of 'equal opportunity' and 'free public education' and made something of themselves.

You want a decent job? get a decent education. plain and simple. Nobody 'owes' anybody anything for generations ago events.

Next you know, they will want 'permanent' payments, since their 'injuries' have prevented them from getting high paying jobs.....so, naturally, everyone owes them a good income.









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Author: eurotrash01 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40898 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 9:43 PM
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If this goes through, why don't WE start squeezing money out of England for their two wars
against us, not to mention the Germans, and when the Indians get done with us there won't
be any money left at all. Good Lord, we actually sent money to Europe after the war, isn't it
time the French paid up?


And then there is the case of my grandfather.

He got skewered from both sides. A German citizen who came to the States in the 20s (after the family's savings were ravaged by Weimar inflation - cut to the picture of the little girl playing in stacks of old paper German marks)... he was interned by the Americans during WWII (he was an unemployed artist and architect...must have seemed very threatening.)

And then the family's remaining land in Eastern Germany was absconded by the Russians.

Should I get reparations?


Euro

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Author: uwalum Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40908 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 10:52 PM
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<Well, if we are going to settle 'Civil WAr' debts, since it was a war of rebellion, with the southern states in civil disobedience, I'm sure that we can go after all the former residents of the south to pay damages to the folks (and descendants) of the north.>


Boy, am I in trouble. My father (and thus, myself) descend from both the north and the south. I wonder what half of me will need to pay damages. The half with money or the half without?

The reparations that are paid to Holocaust victims is based on what was lost. Not emotional loss, but the businesses, homes, etc. What will the basis be for the slaves of 150+ years ago?

Finally, the native Americans had a signed agreement that was broken. Different thing entirely. Any ideas on when the goverment plans to find the money that mysteriously disappeared that belongs to the native American's?

L

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40910 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 11:18 PM
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uwalum writes,

The reparations that are paid to Holocaust victims is based on what was lost. Not emotional loss, but the businesses, homes, etc. What will the basis be for the slaves of 150+ years ago?

I believe some of the reparations paid to Holocaust victims covered the value of their work in the German "slave-labor" camps. If there are people out there who think this compensation is unjust, they are keeping remarkably quiet about it.

If reimbursing slave labor for the victims of the Jewish Holocaust is the right thing to do, why is it wrong for the slave labor of Africans?

intercst



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Author: SloanT Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40912 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/4/2001 11:58 PM
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Affirmative action has almost destroyed the post office and turned it into something that can barely deliver junk mail.

mark


I'm intrigued by this, could you elaborate?

A link to another post on TMF that addresses reperations better than I could: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=14574479

I find it difficult to comment on issues regarding African-Americans. I went to a high school (and jr high + elementary) that was about 40% hispanic, 50% white, and 10% asian. I believe there were 6 African-Americans in a school of over 1600. So, with no real comfort level due to historically no interaction, I try to be as PC as possible. Recently, I was discussing affirmative action with my chinese girlfriend's mother, who doesn't speak very good english (I don't know how I got on the topic...). Anyway, she made some comment about how they don't get good grades because they don't work hard, and they shouldn't get in and get scholarships w/o good grades. She asked if I agreed. My reply: "(lengthy pause) I am not . . . at liberty to . . . comment on this issue." After my girlfriend translated this produced some commotion and discussion among her parents.

Despite all the racial confrontations in the US, I believe we are lightyears ahead of most other countries. I have traveled in Europe and China, and they have little racial interaction and thus few race problems. In the future, in a more integrated world, I believe it will be a more difficult adjustment for other countries versus the US.

st

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Author: SloanT Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40913 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 12:03 AM
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If reimbursing slave labor for the victims of the Jewish Holocaust is the right thing to do, why is it wrong for the slave labor of Africans?



Because in the case of the jews it was paid to the person who did the labor, not their descendants.

I would fully support repaying slave labourers back, but only to the person enslaved. Likewise, I believe those convicted of crimes and later found to be innocent should be nicely compensated for their loss of liberty. Do we do that?

st

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Author: clifp Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40916 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 12:25 AM
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I am always interested in how you handle somebody like Tiger Woods. Does the non-black portion of him pay the black portion or do we just call it a wash. Maybe instead of a reperations he will take a handicap for his golf score. On second thought, he doesn't need that, or course he probably doesn't need reperations.

Colin Powell is another interesting example, he is "African-American". He is parents are Jamican, now they were probably slaves at some point in his family. However, odds are good they were slaves in Jamica so maybe the British should pay him. Of course the British were actually good guys. Thousands of Royal Navy men died fighting the slave traders long before it become fashionable in Europe, America or Africa to be against slavery. So perhaps reperations for Colin Powell should come from the slave nations of Africa like Sierra Lone (sp), or the Ivory coast.

This nation paid a horrible price to free slaves. Walk through a civil war battleground and the cemetary next to them and you will get an idea how bad it was. A civil war widow got about $10, a slave got his freedom and his clothes on his back. Neither was appropriately compensated but 140+ years of history is to long a time to correct mistakes.

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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40917 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 12:34 AM
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The article above points out that you'd have to take reparations money from citizens none of whom took part in slavery. It fails to point out that it would also be paying that money to blacks who are all several generations from slavery themselves.

Great post.

I compare this concept a bit to the big blow up a few years ago regarding "Ellen" coming out on her show.

I had read in the tabloids at the supermarket of her sexuality, and frankly, couldnt possibly care less. And before she *came out* on the show, I watched an interview with her to get her viewpoint. She stated, "All I want is to be seen as normal, to be accepted, for my sexuality NOT to be an issue." I've no quarell with that.

So Ellen *came out* on the show with much fanfare. And it seemed to me that in each episode thereafter the script went a long haul out of the way to make a point about sexual preference. What a great way to muck up an otherwise good show.

So still, I'm confused. It appears that "In order to make my personal choices no longer an issue, let me go out of my way to make it an issue" Clear as mud to me.

I believe it's difficult to strive for total equality and a homogenious society, when you continually dwell on the differences in that society. How is that helpful?

Golfwaymore,
Still holding out for reparations from the Egyptians who enslaved the Hebrews a few thousand years ago.





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Author: allocatorx Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40920 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 12:43 AM
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"Still holding out for reparations from the Egyptians who enslaved the Hebrews a few thousand years ago."

The Hebrews, according to the Old Testament, despoiled Egypt upon leaving. So, it appears they did get reparations of some sort after all.

allocatorx

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Author: allocatorx Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40921 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 12:51 AM
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intercst reflects:
"If reimbursing slave labor for the victims of the Jewish Holocaust is the right thing to do, why is it wrong for the slave labor of Africans?"

I certainly support reimbursing slave labor of Africans. The only problem is, none of the referenced African laborers are still alive. Who will you pay the wages to?

allocatorx

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Author: uwalum Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40924 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 1:01 AM
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<If reimbursing slave labor for the victims of the Jewish Holocaust is the right thing to do, why is it wrong for the slave labor of Africans?>



Because Holocaust victims received the reparations as well as their surviving spouse. Slavery has been abolished for some time, I believe. Unless we have a world record, I can't think of any reports of one living slave who would receive reparations in the same manner as Holocaust victims. Come to think of it, the population of living Holocaust victims and their spouses are dwindling and those reparations will be paid in full upon their death.

L

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Author: Kestral Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40926 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 1:08 AM
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Because Holocaust victims received the reparations as well as their surviving spouse. Slavery has been abolished for some time, I believe. Unless we have a world record, I can't think of any reports of one living slave who would receive reparations in the same manner as Holocaust victims. Come to think of it, the population of living Holocaust victims and their spouses are dwindling and those reparations will be paid in full upon their death.

I dunno about that man, I have a friend who is just a couple of years older than me (I am in my mid-20's) whose dad has the number tattoo. And he's not even close to the first one I've seen - there are a lot of people out there with Nazi numbers on their arms. No money could ever repay the damage done to these people and their families.

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Author: uwalum Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40927 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 1:20 AM
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<No money could ever repay the damage done to these people and their families.>

I agree. However, the issue is reparations for slaves that were "free" some 150 years ago. If there were any surviving slaves I would be completely behind reparations. That is not the case now. The reparations for the Holocaust victims will be paid in full in that subsequent generations will not receive support unless they are the minor child of a survivor who died before the child's 18 birthday or the surviving spouse. I am not making light of the Holocaust or of slavery. I am talking about reparations.

L

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Author: niteguy One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40929 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 1:39 AM
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intercst writes, "If reimbursing slave labor for the victims of the Jewish Holocaust is the right thing to do, why is it wrong for the slave labor of Africans?"
-----------
1) Because those people that were the direct victims of slavery have been dead for several generations.

2) Because the price has already been paid, in blood. During the American Civil War, not every Union soldier was fighting to free the slaves. But for every Confederate that contributed to the enslavement of African-Americans, there was a Union soldier or abolitionist that fought for their freedom - and many of these heroes paid the ultimate price.

Have you ever been to Gettysburg? To Antietam? To the Wilderness? To Fredericksburg? To Manassas? To Petersburg? To Chickamauga? To Arlington?



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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40931 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 2:06 AM
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The reparations issue is gaining momentum even though we are finally leaving the decade of the victim behind. The article above points out that you'd have to take reparations money from citizens none of whom took part in slavery. It fails to point out that it would also be paying that money to blacks who are all several generations from slavery themselves.


For that matter, the "reparations" scam would take money from whites whose ancestors, in the era in question, were serfs - little if any better than slaves - in eastern Europe, in order to pay that money to blacks whose ancestors, in the era in question, were slavers in Africa.

And if we are going to allow for reparations past the lives of both the offendors and the offended, why stop with American blacks? Virtually every cultural group in the world has held slaves, and has been enslaved. Virtually every cultural group in the world has been forced from its ancestral homeland by invaders, and forced others out of their ancestral homeland to make room. My Norse ancestors beat upon my Frankish ancestors and my Germanic ancestors, both of whom shoved my Celtic ancestors off their farms. Those unworthies, meanwhile, managed to cloak their predecessors in myth - including those people's wars against THEIR predecessors...

Innocents? Maybe on some of the Pacific islands. Maybe the First Peoples of South America... no, not the Indians, the ones who were there BEFORE them, having sailed over from Australia, who now survive as a mixed-ancestry tribe of a few dozen people on Tierra Del Fuego. There is a fair amount of evidence that these people inhabited most of South America, but no evidence that they engaged in war prior to the arrival of the Indians.

Non-victims? Almost certainly none.

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Author: Kestral Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40932 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 2:31 AM
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I agree. However, the issue is reparations for slaves that were "free" some 150 years ago. If there were any surviving slaves I would be completely behind reparations. That is not the case now. The reparations for the Holocaust victims will be paid in full in that subsequent generations will not receive support unless they are the minor child of a survivor who died before the child's 18 birthday or the surviving spouse. I am not making light of the Holocaust or of slavery. I am talking about reparations

Thanks for clearing the issue up. I think we are both in agreement here. Since we're on the subject, I do have a question, does this mean that all the Chinese who were brought here as slaves to build the railroads should also get reparations? It was "recent" enough that there are likely survivors. And how about the Japanese who got forced into camps during WW2? For some reason people forget that Asians are also minority (for some reason we take a back seat to other minorities who get more media attention).

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40933 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 2:33 AM
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The French paid in advance: Revolutionary War.


We in the US tend to be US-centric, and when looking back further than that, Europe-centric. Also, to a great degree, modernity-centric.

If we look a bit more broadly, we see a startlingly different picture.

The American Revolution, from the French perspective, was just one front in the *third* world war in a single 100-year period, between the French and the British. (The US's "French and Indian war", where George Washington first proved his stupidity as a military commander, was a front in the previous such war.)

And yes, I seriously mean the term "world war". They had land battles in North America, Africa, and Asia, and in the first two of these wars also in Europe. They had sea battles in the Atlantic Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, the Caribbean Sea, the Mediterranean Sea, and the Indian Ocean.


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Author: clifp Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40936 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 2:56 AM
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I think there are two simple rules in history.

1. Any land worth having has been stolen

2. Every tribe screwed another tribe, and in turned was screwed over by a 3rd tribe.

I think you can substitute jews, moslems, arabs, indians, dutch, catholics, english, protestants, italians, chinese, japanese, russians, africans, egyptians, native americans; for tribe.

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40938 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 3:01 AM
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For some reason people forget that Asians are also minority (for some reason we take a back seat to other minorities who get more media attention).

As the Mallard Fillmore comic strip recently pointed out, ain't it interesting how much media attention is lavished upon certain minorities who break through into the mainstream of certain sports (Tiger Woods, the Williams sisters), while other minorities are totally ignored (the Chinese fellow who recently became the first Asian to make it into the NBA, whose name I don't know because the media ignored it)?

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40939 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 3:04 AM
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Every tribe screwed another tribe, and in turned was screwed over by a 3rd tribe.

In recent years there have been protests against Columbus Day celebrations. It seems that the politically correct like to vilify the Italian explorer for doing to some Native American tribes what they were already doing to each other.

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Author: Amphian Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40941 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 3:18 AM
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Since we're on the subject, I do have a question, does this mean that all the Chinese who were brought here as slaves to build the railroads should also get reparations? It was "recent" enough that there are likely survivors. And how about the Japanese who got forced into camps during WW2?

While they were treated very poorly, I thought the Chinese railroad workers were immigrants who agreed to indentured servitude. I can't find anything about them being bought as slaves.

The treatment of many American Japanese during WWII (including the internment camps) is disgraceful as well. I can't imagine the hue and outcry that would have been raised if we had rounded up the American Germans and Italians. The survivors should definitely should be compensated.

I find it strange that I never heard of those two topics until college. As a country, we now seem capable of talking about wrongs that are far enough in the past that we don't accuse any living person of wrongdoing, but we are still very skittish about discussing anything recent enough to have to accuse living people of acting immorally or failing to speak against immoral actions.

Amphian



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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40943 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 3:52 AM
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Intercst wrote, "If reimbursing slave labor for the victims of the Jewish Holocaust is the right thing to do, why is it wrong for the slave labor of Africans?"

Correct, and if you can find a slave still living I say give him some bucks! However, I think they're all dead by now. Its a shame, but there it is. You can't reimburse somebody that is dead.

mark

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Author: Kestral Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40944 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 3:53 AM
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Correct, and if you can find a slave still living I say give him some bucks! However, I think they're all dead by now. Its a shame, but there it is. You can't reimburse somebody that is dead.

How about a memorial to remind people what happened and why it should never happen again?

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Author: LindberghBaby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40945 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 5:47 AM
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How about a memorial to remind people what happened and why it should never happen again?

I've always seen memorials as a bit patronizing and empty. Maybe something along the lines of the Washington DC Holocaust Museum would actually serve as a reminder, but when I hear "memorial" I think statue.

And when I think statue I think pigeon toilet.

If the politicians insist on throwing money at their white guilt, how about doing something useful with the money instead of building a pigeon toilet?

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Author: FlyingCircus Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40949 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 8:39 AM
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And of course, all the land here belonged to the American Indians, and a lot of it was acquired through dubious means, so 'to set things right', we all simply
deed over our property to them, and move out.

and on and on


Your Federal tax dollars, lobbyists and special interest lawyers at work. Shortly, if the correct political forces get aligned behind this, people who are opposed to reparations (the vast majority) will get named "racist". The NY Times, LA Times and Washington Post will pick up the banner and lead the fray. Politicians will be afraid of the negative publicity and losing the next election, and will begin debate. Billions of dollars are at stake. But in today's environment, "the public" can be convinced that everyone should feel privileged to pay only a few hundred dollars each to resolve their guilt over slavery. Never mind that over half of whatever outrageous sum of money will go to the class action lawyers pounding the table. The politicians can be made to feel guilty about something that is a non-issue.

The only way this snowball is going to get stopped is if the silent majority firmly lets it be known that it cannot happen.

FC

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40951 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 8:51 AM
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"The Hebrews, according to the Old Testament, despoiled Egypt upon leaving. So, it appears they did get reparations of some sort after all.
"

Who got the oil, and who got the sand?

mark

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40952 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 8:55 AM
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Kestral asked, "And how about the Japanese who got forced into camps during WW2? For some reason people forget that Asians are also minority (for some reason we take a back seat to other minorities who get more media attention). "

They DID. As for the chinese working the railroads...same thing. If you can find a living chinese who built the transcontinental, I vote we give'em one hundred million a piece just for breathing more than 120 years.

mark


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Author: dgthepiper Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40954 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 9:00 AM
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But in today's environment, "the public" can be convinced that everyone should feel privileged to pay only a few hundred dollars each to resolve their guilt over slavery.

I don't feel guilty. I had nothing to do with it. Why should it cost me anything?


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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40955 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 9:06 AM
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"But in today's environment, "the public" can be convinced that everyone should feel privileged to pay only a few hundred dollars each to resolve their guilt over slavery.

I don't feel guilty. I had nothing to do with it. Why should it cost me anything?"

The only thing you can be sure of is that reparations would be money taken from people not responsible for slavery, and given to people who where never slaves. Game over.

That is why I think it will ultimately fail...it should fail. It should have been done over 100 years ago...to our shame it wasn't, but there it is.

mark

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40956 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 9:21 AM
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I haven't seen anyone oppose the idea of reparations to slaves on this thread, but look at the can of worms once you consider a reparations inheritance? Suddenly we're ALL victims!

The thread with respect to the Indians has one important contribution to this. If we truly agree that appropriate reparations should be made to the dead, then we should pack our bags and give this country back.

Its their's isn't it? They were here first, even if you could argue endlessly about what territory the tribes claimed.

The fact is though, we had the guns, and they had the arrows and we're staying. There is nothing noble, nothing right, and nothing fair about it. Its done, thats all. You can speculate if you wish on how well we'd have come out of it if the Indians had won.

Its time for people of every color to get on with their lives and stop whining for dollars.

mark

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40957 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 9:27 AM
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If reparations should be passed, I think we should demand that reparations be made to us for rap music. That ought to even it out by God.

mark

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Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40958 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 9:34 AM
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FlyingCircus posted:

Never mind that over half of whatever outrageous sum of money will go to the class action lawyers pounding the table.

Vickifool

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Author: LindberghBaby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40959 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 9:37 AM
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I think we should demand that reparations be made to us for rap music

Only if I get to personally kick Eminem in the face.

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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40963 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 10:03 AM
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I dunno about that man, I have a friend who is just a couple of years older than me (I am in my mid-20's) whose dad has the number tattoo. And he's not even close to the first one I've seen - there are a lot of people out there with Nazi numbers on their arms. No money could ever repay the damage done to these people and their families.

As the reparations (I believe) are/were coming from German accounts, it's not a direct American issue.

However, I'm wondering how far the trillions of U.S. dollars spent in repatrioting and continuing to support Israel, as well as the American portion of the 50 million lives lost in WWII goes towards restitution of some type?

One of my business partners is Jewish and we've had this same discussion many times. I dont know all the answers (surprisingly).

Golfwaymore

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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40967 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 10:17 AM
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ain't it interesting how much media attention is lavished upon certain minorities who break through into the mainstream of certain sports (Tiger Woods, the Williams sisters), while other minorities are totally ignored (the Chinese fellow who recently became the first Asian to make it into the NBA, whose name I don't know because the media ignored it)?

Is it possible that:

1. He plays a team sport, not an individual sport like the references you mentioned?

2. He's a rookie, has yet to establish himself in the NBA?

3. He hasnt won a "major" like the references you listed?

If he breaks an NBA record of any type, wanna bet if he gets some media attention then? Me thinks it takes more than being a Chinaman starting in the NBA to achieve superstar coverage.

Nah. Couldnt be. He must be a victim too. <grin>

Golfwaymore



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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40968 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 10:23 AM
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The treatment of many American Japanese during WWII (including the internment camps) is disgraceful as well. I can't imagine the hue and outcry that would have been raised if we had rounded up the American Germans and Italians. The survivors should definitely should be compensated.

I agree, it is an ugly chapter.

However, I'm wondering if the difference in color of skin between the Japanese and the Germans falls short of the explanation why some were rounded up and some werent?

Though we were engaged in war with both in the different theatres, I'm wondering if the fact that the Japanese spilled American blood on American soil had anything to do with it? The manner of the attack, etc...?

To my knowledge, a German bomb or bullet never hit within the 50 states.

Thoughts?

Golfwaymore



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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40969 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 10:25 AM
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How about a memorial to remind people what happened and why it should never happen again?

I thought we already had those in the form of tombstones all across the eastern seaboard and south?

Some 600,000 I believe?

Golfwaymore

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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40970 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 10:32 AM
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But in today's environment, "the public" can be convinced that everyone should feel privileged to pay only a few hundred dollars each to resolve their guilt over slavery.

I don't feel guilty. I had nothing to do with it. Why should it cost me anything?


I dont feel guilty either.

But, if it'll stop the riots, and if it'll button the pieholes of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and the usual suspects forever, I'LL PAY DOUBLE MY SHARE!

Course I'm betting Sharpton and Jackson wouldnt like that; it would put them out of business wouldnt it?

Golfwaymore,
Still waiting for Rev's Jackson and Sharpton to preach their first sermon


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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40971 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 10:36 AM
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Its time for people of every color to get on with their lives and stop whining for dollars.

Oh I dont know, I just read in the paper that the city where my biz is located just went >50% hispanic according to the latest census stats.

I was looking forward to being the first to say "I'm tired of takin' it from the MAN"! <grin>

Golfwaymore



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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40974 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 11:06 AM
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<<Affirmative action has almost destroyed the post office and turned it into something that can barely deliver junk mail.

mark >>


You mean we can solve our junk mail problem with a bit more AA? This might be worth considering....



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40975 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 11:16 AM
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<<
The reparations that are paid to Holocaust victims is based on what was lost. Not emotional loss, but the businesses, homes, etc. What will the basis be for the slaves of 150+ years ago?

I believe some of the reparations paid to Holocaust victims covered the value of their work in the German "slave-labor" camps. If there are people out there who think this compensation is unjust, they are keeping remarkably quiet about it.

If reimbursing slave labor for the victims of the Jewish Holocaust is the right thing to do, why is it wrong for the slave labor of Africans?

intercst
>>


I do think that using American courts to try to collect on life insurance policies issued more than half a century ago to people living on another continent is an abuse of our courts. Ditto for slave labor compensation. I notice no one is lined up with a tin cup in front of the Russian embassy to collect for the far more extensive system of slave labor that existed for many more years, and the killings of civilians that were probably more numerous than that of the Nazis.

The war is over and has been for a long time. Refighting the war in American courts is just another expression of special interest politics by those who want to display their sores to the public.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40976 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 11:18 AM
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However, I'm wondering if the difference in color of skin between the Japanese and the Germans falls short of the explanation why some were rounded up and some werent?

I think it has everything to do with outward appearances. It is pretty tough to say you are not Japanese, but a person of German ancestory could claim he were Swiss or Finnish, etc.

BTW, I was told (by someone of Japanese ancestory that was there at the time,) that there were no mass incarcerations of Japanese people in Hawaii because it would have killed the economy. No more workforce.

Money talks.

InParadise

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40977 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 11:27 AM
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I believe some of the reparations paid to Holocaust victims covered the value of their work in the German "slave-labor" camps. If there are people out there who think this compensation is unjust, they are keeping remarkably quiet about it.

If reimbursing slave labor for the victims of the Jewish Holocaust is the right thing to do, why is it wrong for the slave labor of Africans?


It is absolutely right. My Grandparents and siblings were victims of the Holocaust (most were gassed and incinerated by the Nazis, but a few lucky family members survived) and received reparations from Germany and Austria (pensions).

My parents and their cousins, the children of the non-survivors are not eligible for any reparations, nor am I eligible being a grandchild.

I agree that all surviving slaves should receive reparations from the USA, their children and grandchildren on the other hand should certainly not be eligible for such payments.

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40978 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 11:33 AM
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I dunno about that man, I have a friend who is just a couple of years older than me (I am in my mid-20's) whose dad has the number tattoo. And he's not even close to the first one I've seen - there are a lot of people out there with Nazi numbers on their arms. No money could ever repay the damage done to these people and their families.

The last cases of Nazi number branding were probably in 1945. Since most children under 10 or so were immediately gassed and cremated, and were not branded with a number since the Nazis considered a waste of resources, most of the youngest people with number brands were most likely born around 1935-6. This would make most of them over age 65 today.

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Author: LLNunn Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40979 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 11:53 AM
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However, I'm wondering if the difference in color of skin between the
Japanese and the Germans falls short of the explanation why some were
rounded up and some werent?

I think it has everything to do with outward appearances. It is pretty tough to say
you are not Japanese, but a person of German ancestory could claim he were
Swiss or Finnish, etc.


Perhaps the only European group (by national origin) that has given us more ancestors than the Germans are the English. I have read somewhere that about 1 out of every 6 US citizens can claim German ancestry. Try rounding up that many folks! Counting them would be a little tricky though since a lot of our "German" progenitors came over before the modern German nation state came into existence. What are these labels anyway? Language, national origin, ethnicity... things get pretty mixed up here in our melting pot...

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40980 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 12:13 PM
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Golfwaymore asked, "However, I'm wondering if the difference in color of skin between the Japanese and the Germans falls short of the explanation why some were rounded up and some werent?

Though we were engaged in war with both in the different theatres, I'm wondering if the fact that the Japanese spilled American blood on American soil had anything to do with it? The manner of the attack, etc...?

To my knowledge, a German bomb or bullet never hit within the 50 states.
"

I don't believe it for a minute, and by the way, ask the people off the coast of Jacksonville Florida if the Germans never killed anyone here. Many of them watched as a German U Boat repeatedly shelled a US tanker right at the shore.

The fact is, that many Americans ARE of German decent...I am...and the Japanese are far fewer and look different. During the war they were represented as a subhuman race trying to overrun us.

At the beginning of the war when it actually appeared that we could lose, I have wondered often how liberal I might have been at that time. I hope I would have opposed the roundup.

mark

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40981 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 12:15 PM
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SeattleP wrote, "You mean we can solve our junk mail problem with a bit more AA? This might be worth considering....
"

I'm convinced they'll get that right to the bitter end :-(

mark

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40982 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 12:17 PM
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inparadise wrote, "I think it has everything to do with outward appearances. It is pretty tough to say you are not Japanese, but a person of German ancestory could claim he were Swiss or Finnish, etc. "

Its true...my family has all been Dutch since the war<g>.

mark

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40983 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 12:19 PM
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markr33 wrote, "I agree that all surviving slaves should receive reparations from the USA, their children and grandchildren on the other hand should certainly not be eligible for such payments. "

Who would argue with that? However, in order to have been born into slavery you would need to be at least 136 years old.

Game over.

mark

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Author: cmorford Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40986 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 1:04 PM
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inparadise and mhtyler wrote: It is pretty tough to say you are not Japanese, but a person of German ancestory could claim he were Swiss or Finnish, etc. "

Its true...my family has all been Dutch since the war<g>.


My family did this also, but during WWI...

My Mother and Aunts and Uncles thought we were Greek. That's what I was told growing up...

A few years back I did some computer work in trade for some family history research...

I saw photocopies of the 1905 census, where my Great-Grandfather listed his birthplace as well as my Great-Grandmother's as Germany...

Well, needless to say we were all stunned...One of my uncles was born in 1930 and told me "we have always been Greek"...

Unfortunately, there's no one left to clear up this enigma...My grandmother was born in 1906 and died in 1972, when I was 13...

Strange...It turns out I may be related to Field Marshal Friedrich von Paulus, German commander at the Siege of Stalingrad...
Same family name, same area of Germany...My branch of the family left in the 1890's...http://www.expage.com/page/wwiigen60

Chuck

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Author: wycowboy2 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40987 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 1:10 PM
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"It's their's isn't it? They were here first, even if you could argue endlessly about what territory the tribes claimed." Yes, we were among the first.
We owned no land, as the English thought we did. Therefore, in part you paid for something we never owned (reparation for moving us across the land almost to the Pacific). We used tools (weapons, knives, spears, pots, bow and arrow) to control and dominte the land upon which the Great Creator put us. We grew our own food, traded amongst other tribes and generally lived in harmony. Oh, yes we warred against our neighbors and made peace thereafter. We had treaties amongst ourselves, to not encroach upon other tribes' lands. Our land is sacred to us, much like your burial grounds are sacred to your people. We do not defile them and nor should you. We had our own religion, long before Christianity and Indian schools were forced upon us. But then I digress too much.

"If we truly agree that appropriate reparations should be made to the dead, then we should pack our bags and give this country back"We will consider this at council, however, should they decide to let you stay, the rent will go up.

"The fact is though, we had the guns, and they had the arrows and we're staying." Very true, but had it been different, where we had the guns and you had the arrows, you'd still be in England. OTH, had we been equal in strength and weaponry, we might have been able to live in controlled peace.

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Author: LLNunn Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 40997 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 2:49 PM
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Its true...my family has all been Dutch since the war<g>.


My family did this also, but during WWI...

My Mother and Aunts and Uncles thought we were Greek. That's what I was told growing up...


You are in good company... the British royal family changed their last name around the time of WWI also...

from http://www.royal.gov.uk/history/windsor.htm :

In 1917 anti-German feeling led him to adopt the family name of Windsor (after the Castle of the same name).

It had been Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Before the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha line (now Windsors) was the Hanoverian line, also of German extraction.

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Author: Patnbj Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41003 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 3:36 PM
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Intercst asked

If reimbursing slave labor for the victims of the Jewish Holocaust is the right thing to do, why is it wrong for the slave labor of Africans?

To which SloanT replied

I would fully support repaying slave labourers back, but only to the person enslaved

So let's say that a former Holocaust slave labourer dies prior to receiving his reparation payment. So nothing would paid to his estate? And if so, what would be the dis-incentive for the unscrupulous to just tie up payments in litigation until after the effected ones die?

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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41008 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 4:08 PM
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I don't believe it for a minute, and by the way, ask the people off the coast of Jacksonville Florida if the Germans never killed anyone here. Many of them watched as a German U Boat repeatedly shelled a US tanker right at the shore.

So how many died on American soil?

Golfwaymore,
Who has no opinion, but inquiring minds like to know



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Author: Amphian Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41012 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 4:18 PM
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So let's say that a former Holocaust slave labourer dies prior to receiving his reparation payment. So nothing would paid to his estate? And if so, what would be the dis-incentive for the unscrupulous to just tie up payments in litigation until after the effected ones die?

IMHO, if the slave laborer filed a claim before his or her death, the case should be allowed to continue until it is decided in court. In that case, the damages would be payable to the estate.

Amphian


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Author: MSHH Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41031 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 6:36 PM
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Hi clifp,

Really enjoyed your post and agree with most of it, especially your comments on the atrocities taking place right now in places like the Sudan and Sierra Leone. I wish African American leaders (and all other leaders) who are so concerned with reparations would express as much concern for the slave trade that is taking place right now in Africa and parts of the the Arab world. I think the reason they don't is obvious.

I was also interested in your reference to the men who died fighting the slave trade after it had been abolished in the United States. I was just reading an article from the Atlantic Monthly from 1900 written by one of the men who was involved in that fight. It's called "The Capture of a Slaver" and is a first hand account of what that was like.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgibin/browse-mixed?id=WooCapt&tag=public&images=images/modeng&data=/lv1/Archive/eng-parsed

The article tells the familiar account of how horrible conditions on a slaver were:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>From the time we first got on board we had heard moans, cries, and rumblings coming from below, and as soon as the captain and crew were removed, the hatches had been taken off, when there arose a hot blast as from a charnel house, sickening and overpowering. In the hold were three or four hundred human beings, gasping, struggling for breath, dying; their bodies, limbs, faces, all expressing terrible suffering. In their agonizing fight for life, some had torn or wounded themselves or their neighbors dreadfully; some were stiffened in the most unnatural positions. As soon as I knew the condition of things I sent the boat back for the doctor and some whiskey. It returned bringing Captain Thompson, and for an hour or more we were all hard at work lifting and helping the poor creatures on deck, where they were laid out in rows. A little water and stimulant revived most of them; some, however, were dead or too far gone to be resuscitated. The doctor worked earnestly over each one, but seventeen were beyond human skill. As fast as he pronounced them dead they were quickly dropped overboard.<<
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
But perhaps more interesting is the light the article sheds on how even these slave trade fighters viewed the victims:


------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Gradually I allowed a larger number of the blacks to remain on deck, a privilege which they greatly enjoyed. To lie basking in the sun like saurians, half sleeping, half waking, appeared to satisfy all their wishes. They were perfectly docile and obedient, and not by word, gesture, or look did they express any dissatisfaction with orders given them. But again for any little acts of kindness they expressed no kind of appreciation or gratitude. Physically they were men and women, but otherwise as far removed from the Anglo-Saxon as the oyster from the baboon, or the mole from the horse.<<
------------------------------------------------------------------------


That this kind of comment could be printed in a respected magazine like Atlantic Monthly in the year 1900 is ample proof of what attitudes Blacks in America faced many years (40) after the abolition of slavery. And for many years after that, of course. Remember, this was the attitude of someone who had been involved in the fight against the now illegal slave trade!

So to tie the issue of reparations solely to the institution of slavery in some way misses the point. The attitudes and beliefs that allowed slavery to flourish for so long in America remained long after actual slavery had been abolished in America and limited the opportunities for Blacks in America for many decades after the Emancipation Proclamation and Reconstruction just as surely as if neither had taken place, especially in the South.

I won't get into what I think the attitude of the mostly white (I assume) posters here would be if it had been THEIR great great grandfather forced off their land like many "negroes" were forced off their 40 acres during and after Reconstruction.....

Suffice to say I don't think their attitude toward reparations would be so confidently certain that reparations are some kind of scam....

Thanks for the good post, Clif.

Mike







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Author: allocatorx Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41037 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 7:10 PM
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I notice no one is lined up with a tin cup in front of the Russian embassy to collect for the far more extensive system of slave labor that existed for many more years, and the killings of civilians that were probably more numerous than that of the Nazis.

I think the surviving spouses of the 10,000 Polish officers murdered in the Katyn Forest near Smolensk should receive reparations from the Russians.

Of course, if you fought on the winning side and made a major contribution to ultimate victory, who would bother coming after you for any small measure of justice?

Certainly not your former allies.

allocatorx

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Author: limoc Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41053 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 8:15 PM
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Since the Government did not specifically support slavery and left it to each State to make a choice - until the Civil War- should only those States who authorized Slavery be held accountable... And further, since a large portion of the population of those States is people who have immigrated to the United States within the 100 plus plus years since slavery was officially abolished, should we only make those peoples who were officially citizens of the aforementioned states responsible for payments to people who no longer exist??? Why not make all Mothers pay reparations to Society, as a whole, for the sins of a few of their children!!- DUH... WTF

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Author: limoc Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41056 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 8:22 PM
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they are!!!

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Author: Amphian Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41058 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 8:34 PM
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So to tie the issue of reparations solely to the institution of slavery in some way misses the point. The attitudes and beliefs that allowed slavery to flourish for so long in America remained long after actual slavery had been abolished in America and limited the opportunities for Blacks in America for many decades after the Emancipation Proclamation and Reconstruction just as surely as if neither had taken place, especially in the South.

I won't get into what I think the attitude of the mostly white (I assume) posters here would be if it had been THEIR great great grandfather forced off their land like many "negroes" were forced off their 40 acres during and after Reconstruction.....

Suffice to say I don't think their attitude toward reparations would be so confidently certain that reparations are some kind of scam....


I wouldn't assume all of the people against reparations are white, and I don't think the point is that "Reparations are a scam." as much as that they have to stop somewhere.

There is no question that some Blacks were the victims of discrimination in both the North and the South. I'm not sure that wrong can be fixed at this late date. Does my black neighbor get reparations? Does it matter that he makes a great deal of money as a network administrator? Does it matter that he grew up in a ghetto? Do his kids get money, even though their mother is Jewish and not black? Do people who are a quarter black get money? What about an eighth black or less? Do they have to prove that their ancestors were slaves at the time of the Civil War or the in the US during the following decades? Where is the line drawn?

When you are compensating a victim directly, reparations make sense. When you are giving money to a group of people who share a common trait (race, religion, etc.), because of the suffering of other individuals who possessed that trait, I'm not convinced that reparations accomplish anything.

In my case, some of my ancestors came from ethnic groups that had members forced off of their lands. I'm not sure if I am direct descendant of anyone who lost his or her home. Even if I am, how does giving me money make up for what happened to them?

Amphian



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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41068 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 9:16 PM
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Amphian asks,

There is no question that some Blacks were the victims of discrimination in both the North and the South. I'm not sure that wrong can be fixed at this late date. Does my black neighbor get reparations? Does it matter that he makes a great deal of money as a network administrator? Does it matter that he grew up in a ghetto? Do his kids get money, even though their mother is Jewish and not black? Do people who are a quarter black get money? What about an eighth black or less? Do they have to prove that their ancestors were slaves at the time of the Civil War or the in the US during the following decades? Where is the line drawn?

Good question.

There's an Indian tribe in Connecticut (the Mashantucket Pequots) that have done a good job answering just this type of question.

The Pequots own and operate the multi-billion dollar Foxwoods casino in Southeastern Connecticut and all members of the tribe share in its bounty. When the casino opened in the mid-80's, the tribe had less than 100 active members. They have less than 1000 today. I believe you need to show 1/8th or 1/16th Pequot blood to get into the tribe. The fact that membership has only grown to about 1,000 seems to indicate that they're successful in denying admission to any posers.

intercst


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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41080 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 10:09 PM
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"I was also interested in your reference to the men who died fighting the slave trade after it had been abolished in the United States"

Speaking of which...and this is OFF OFF topic, the Wilberforce committee in England required that slaves be given 18" of space on the Atlantic crossing. 200 years later United Airlines gives you 20". Now THATS progress!

mark

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41081 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/5/2001 10:13 PM
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"Since the Government did not specifically support slavery and left it to each State to make a choice - "

Technically the government DID support slavery in a number of ways both direct and indirect. First of all a constitutional amendment that makes a slave only 3/5's of a free man is a passive endorsement, and secondly legislation that permits slavery in specific states is also an endorsement wouldn't you say?

mark

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41099 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/6/2001 2:24 AM
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<<Golfwaymore asked, "However, I'm wondering if the difference in color of skin between the Japanese and the Germans falls short of the explanation why some were rounded up and some werent?

Though we were engaged in war with both in the different theatres, I'm wondering if the fact that the Japanese spilled American blood on American soil had anything to do with it? The manner of the attack, etc...?

>>


If you read General Stillwell's autobiography of the imediate aftermath of the Pearl Harbor attack on the west coast, you will see that there was a lot of fear and anxiety by civilians and the military. However missplaced that may seem in the light of subsequent history, there was a lot of fear generated by that attack.


Also, quite a few people of German ancestry were interned on rather thin evidence that they were a threat. This was far from the mass internment of Japanese on the west coast, of course.


But let's not forget that war is a brutal business and rights are routinely ignored. Millions of American men were drafted, for example, and not just interned into a safe camp, but put on the front lines to fight and die. These were the men who really had their liberties violated.


While the internment of Japanese was a mistake in retrospect, it was a decision of a government at war, and mistakes are made that cost people. In my view it was unjustified to pay reparations to interned Americans just as it would be unjustified to pay reparations to Americans who were drafted into the military to fight and die. It is all a consequence of war and there is no way to try to make the waging of war just and equal.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41100 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/6/2001 2:38 AM
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<<So let's say that a former Holocaust slave labourer dies prior to receiving his reparation payment. So nothing would paid to his estate? And if so, what would be the dis-incentive for the unscrupulous to just tie up payments in litigation until after the effected ones die?

IMHO, if the slave laborer filed a claim before his or her death, the case should be allowed to continue until it is decided in court. In that case, the damages would be payable to the estate.

Amphian
>>


So, slave laborers who worked for Oscar Schindler might be looking for some assets to file a claim against?

War is a brutal business, and it's probably a mistake to discourage the use of forced labor by a conquering power, since the alternative may simply be mass muder. Slavery has been a common fate of the conquered throughout human history, and is one of the ways a conquered population was able to bargain for their lives.

The brutal fact is that for many groups captured by Russians, Germans, Japanese and others, those who were fortunate enough to become forced laborers were the lucky ones.


The war is over. Whatever reparations were to be extracted from the conquered were a part of the peace settlement. Trying to compensate people decades after the fact for injustices done during a war is just a low level form of warfare against an old enemy , and should not be indulged in by reasonable people.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41112 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/6/2001 10:09 AM
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But let's not forget that war is a brutal business and rights are routinely ignored. Millions of American men were drafted, for example, and not just interned into a safe camp, but put on the front lines to fight and die. These were the men who really had their liberties violated.

You summed up my thoughts exactly Seattle, I just had some trouble putting it into words.

It's easy to armchair quarterback 60 years later, then, I'm not so sure. When catastrophe occurs, perspective changes. When catastrophe is solved, perspective returns to normal.

Golfwaymore



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Author: reader99 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41122 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/6/2001 12:45 PM
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That means, that we want the southern states to compensate all the survivors of the north, the families who lost men during the war, and their progeny.

Hey, cool! I had ancestors in the North during the Civil War, and currently live in the South. So this means Florida will tax me to pay me so I can just cut the loop by opting out....




Reader99
Citizen of the World, hey everybody owes me! Irish ancestry - I can collect for the land enclosures and the famine too! No doubt there's a beautiful plot of land in the Emerald Isle that once was an ancestor of mine's so I get to have it now right (never mind all his other descendants...). Female -- look at all the centuries women couldn't own property and their husbands or fathers got all their stuff, man, you Male types owe me big! This could really work out for me if we are really careful to only look at my point of view.

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41123 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/6/2001 1:06 PM
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Reader99 says, "Citizen of the World, hey everybody owes me! Irish ancestry - I can collect for the land enclosures and the famine too! "

That assumes that we are through oppressing you. We might not be done yet. Just keep records and we'll let you know<g>.

mark

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41124 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/6/2001 1:24 PM
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Hey, I can get into this, too!

First and foremost, I'm one-quarter Shawnee Indian, so you all owe me for the land you took and the ancestors you killed through conquest and disease.

Also, many of my ancestors -- on my mother's side *and* my father's side -- lived in Kentucky during the time of the Civil War, and neither family owned slaves. As a slave state that remained loyal to the Union, and with many intrastate battles over the secession issue, including a great-great-great uncle who was killed by "inhuman traitors" (that's on his headstone) in 1864 at the age of 24 -- I figure the entire nation owes descendants of Kentucky residents for our sacrifice and loyalty despite all odds. At least the ones who weren't slaveowners!

Pay up, dammit. No justice, no peace. :-)

#29


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Author: uwalum Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41158 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/6/2001 10:25 PM
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<So let's say that a former Holocaust slave labourer dies prior to receiving his reparation payment. So nothing would paid to his estate? >




I believe that the surviving spouse and minor children would be able to receive the payment.


L

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Author: uwalum Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41159 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/6/2001 10:41 PM
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<I won't get into what I think the attitude of the mostly white (I assume) posters here would be if it had been THEIR great great grandfather forced off their land like many "negroes" were forced off their 40 acres during and after Reconstruction.....

Suffice to say I don't think their attitude toward reparations would be so confidently certain that reparations are some kind of scam....>



My step father was born in 1910 in Russia which became Poland after WWI. He grew to age and moved to Germany. He was Jewish. When the holocaust began, Jews were encouraged to leave the country. Only 2 countries would take Jews, one being China. His brother with his wife and young son were hidden like Anne Frank. My stepfather went to china where my stepbrother was born (under Japanese occupation). When the communists came to power, the Jews were thrown out of the country and went primarily to Israel (where another stepsister was born). My stepfather kept in touch with his family and friends from Germany, China and Israel when he finally came to the US. I grew up with adults that had tattoos on the forearms. I grew up with the stories and the understanding of the Holocaust. Everything about my childhood was affected by the experiences of the adults around me. I am 38.

My Mom was a civilian German whose home was bombed and were relocated and starved through most of the war. Her grandmother was killed by lethal injection because she was old.

My stepfather collected his monthly check from the German government and now my Mom collects as his surviving spouse. When she dies, the reparations are over, which is perfectly fine with me.

Why is it that when the discussion of Black Americans collecting reparations always comes back to "if it were your g-g-g-g-grandfather, you'd feel differently." No I wouldn't. It isn't about black and white, the issue is about unfair treatment 150 years ago. It is not about what happened after the civil war. Only 30 years ago there was a sign on the entrance of an upscale area of Seattle which read "No dogs or Jews allowed." It wasn't nice, wasn't fair, and it wasn't where we moved.

I'm not Jewish, but I was raised by a Jew who had been there and done that and it was in his lifetime not 150 years ago. My mother has seen so much death, destruction and starvation and she only qualified for a monthly check because she married a holocaust survivor. No reparations for what she went through. It seems that the discussion is always about race.

L



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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41165 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/6/2001 11:23 PM
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"Suffice to say I don't think their attitude toward reparations would be so confidently certain that reparations are some kind of scam....>"

Absolutely correct. If my Great Grandfather got kicked off of his 40 acres and I came to you for restitution you'd tell me to pound sand. I'd be very upset and dissapointed since the world owes me a living in lieu of my Great Grandfather's. I hope at that point, I would have the courage to make the most of my life rather than try to make it something it isn't: fair.

mark

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Author: imthekidd Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41198 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/7/2001 1:26 PM
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I am not Black, but I had much rather our country's money stay here and help deserving needy Blacks and Americans of all races instead of all the foreign aide we give. Let's take care of our own first.

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Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/7/2001 2:50 PM
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I am not Black, but I had much rather our country's money stay here and help deserving needy Blacks and Americans of all races instead of all the foreign aide we give. Let's take care of our own first.

Foreign aide, like domestic aide, is a policy tool that may be more cost effective and palatable than the alternative. We should strive to wean all dependants from aide and let our foreign and domestic policy become bribe-free. Unfortunately, bribes are more institutionalized outside the US and without them, our foreign policy would be severely handicapped (oops, I mean diplomatically challenged).

1HF


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Author: eWhartHog One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41218 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/7/2001 4:10 PM
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Unfortunately, bribes are more institutionalized outside the US...

In the advanced political system of the USA, bribes for influence peddling have been replaced by campaign contributions for constituent service.

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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41231 of 757391
Subject: Re: OT: Reparations Date: 6/7/2001 5:28 PM
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In the advanced political system of the USA, bribes for influence peddling have been replaced by campaign contributions for constituent service.

Too-shay! (I don't know how to put the accent in touche) But campaign bribes via contributions are hardly unique to the US (and there is that pesky freedom of speech issue).

1HappyFool


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