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Author: scaryblondechick Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 463374  
Subject: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 12:36 AM
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qazulight seems to think my perspective will be valuable. I think maybe not, as I'm kind of close to the trees and cannot properly see the forest. But I'll go on his suggestion, anyway.

Saturday everybody with any sense was already gearing up. My son was at my parents' apartment, which is right on the water just north of the Verrazano Bridge on Staten Island, staying overnight. I wasn't entirely happy about this but he and they insisted, and I gave in, feeling that it wouldn't be an issue this early anyway. On the way back I filled up the gas tank at kind of a long line. That day they announced that the NYC Specialized High School Admissions Test was cancelled, which relieved my son no end. The schools haven't opened back up yet; they're saying maybe next Monday.

Sunday it started to blow, but nothing serious yet. My parents' power went out at 3 pm and they decided to bring my kid home; they also lost water at that time, since it's pumped up the building. Still no problems on my end, and I suggested they should stay with me. They, stubborn and maybe a little tetched, went back to their apartment building, insisting that it was 23 feet above sea level and they'd be fine. Incidentally, they live in NYC evac zone 3 (unlikely), but they're just across the street from zone 1 (guarandamnteed).

Monday, the hard stuff hit. I am on a hill pretty far inland on Staten Island. We never lost water or gas; we're very lucky. We didn't lose power until Monday afternoon sometime. Phone went out at the same time - and we do have a Verizon landline, just in case. Cell and internet went out a little bit later, but not before they called my husband a couplethree times to come to work (he's a nurse) - too late; the bridges were closed. Monday night the house shook with the wind, but we didn't even lose a shingle. I want to be really clear about this: we are pretty much the luckiest people I know. This town is essentially broken, but we came through without a damn scratch, except for the inconvenience. I still can't even believe it.

Before the power went out, I could see on the internet and TV what everybody could see: low lying areas in Brooklyn and Queens already flooded, including LaGuardia and the safety zone outside the runways at JFK; East and Hudson Rivers up over their banks; and (worst) Breezy Point burning. I don't know what to say about all that. I never saw such a dreadful fire.

That day our new dog took sick. We adopted him Wednesday, he was neutered on Thursday and came home on Friday. By Monday he was showing post-op infection, and by nightfall his scrotum was really bad, swollen and hot, and he was febrile. We gave him some Levaquin (DH is a nurse and just kind of had some around) and went to bed.

Tuesday the dog was worse, and the storm had hit overnight, mostly in the small hours. We had no phone or power. We set out driving to find a vet. Four hours later we concluded that the island was pretty much closed for the duration. Our vet is about two blocks from the water; the road was open, but soggy broken wood debris - not treefall, more like broken piers or pilings - was all over the place, and there was watermarking on the side of the building about two feet up. A quarter mile away from his storefront, there was a ship - a really big ship, I mean, not a cargo carrier, but something not much smaller - run aground down near the old Navy Homeport. Most roads were open, but the bridges were still closed, and some roads were blocked by trees. We encountered no flooding that we couldn't pass, but didn't venture down to the south shore, say New Dorp and southward, where I understand things are very much worse.

By Tuesday evening they opened the bridges, and we found an emergency vet in Brooklyn. They took the pup overnight. We still had no power. We never lost gas or water, and we cooked up what was left in the fridge that night, bagged it, and put it back in with the water bottles we'd stuck in there on Sunday. Turns out pretty much nothing spoiled.

We picked up our dog yesterday and he looks to be pulling through. I was really worried he might go septic. Meanwhile there are literally half mile lines at the gas stations where there's gas and power to pump it, and the cops are enforcing order on those lines. Nothing on the commercial strip is powered, including the supermarket, but two miles west there's power - and the chick at the Boston Market where I got our dinner told me they were about to run out of food because the delivery truck hadn't made it.

Yesterday night the trick-or-treaters came out. I couldn't even believe it, but there they were. I ordered my candy from Amazon, and of course they couldn't deliver on time. Luckily I'd bought coupons for free Junior Frostys at Wendy's the week before, and I had a big box of loose novelty toys left over from when the teenager was younger and I used to make goody bags for his birthday parties. I did all right - maybe I was even one of the good houses; those toys were pretty decent, for Halloween crap. The power had come on sometime that afternoon, was off again for a while, then back to stay. Cellular came back around the same time; internet only came back today. Time Warner Cable's branch here is in a low lying area.

Today I called my partner at the dojo and asked if we were going to open. He said not; his house is under, first floor, and his family's three cars are all a dead loss. He doesn't have power yet, since his box was shorted. Neither do my parents, though they've got water now - I don't understand how they have one and not the other. The whole east and south shore of the island probably won't be up for at least another week. I haven't gone out to the west shore but I hear rumors that the highway was underwater over there.

My house and family are fine. I still can't believe it. Everywhere around us looks like serious disaster. A tree limb fell in the next door neighbor's yard, with no damage or injury. I don't know how we got away with it. I can't understand how I can be so lucky in the middle of such really, really awful times. It scares me a little.

I'm pretty much out of story. If anybody has any questions I'll do my best to answer.
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Author: scaryblondechick Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407477 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 12:37 AM
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p.s. - I know that was really scrolly and not particularly informational. I guess I'm just another guy like everybody I met today - we all want to tell the story, and we all have one. Sorry about that.

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Author: PolymerMom Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407479 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 1:11 AM
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sbc,

Glad to hear all is well w/ you and yours.

No problem w/ the long involved tale. It's life during a trying time.

Please feel free to ramble on some more.

PM

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Author: WatchingTheHerd Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407480 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 1:22 AM
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Thanks for your post.

The vast majority of us have lived for so long in the presence of relatively reliable electric, water, gas and sewer services that they have literally become invisible -- both in their daily operation and the original MASSIVE up-front investment that created them. Most Americans FREAK OUT for interruptions in any one of them only lasting a few hours. They cannot fathom what it's like to walk into a world ALL of those services aren't available for days and THAT trails behind things like NO HOME, NO TRANSPORTATION, NO COMMUNICATION on the list of critical problems.

Having no electricity, no water, no gas and no sewer after storm surge scours everything in your neighborhood is not like camping in a tent in the backyard with the kids for one evening.

Hopefully, first-hand accounts like yours and many others from hard-hit areas won't be read as so much "disaster voyeurism" but serve as an actual wake-up call to the rest of us about the need to plan for disasters, pay attention to authorities and actually ACT upon your plan when the time comes. Despite the lead time provided by a hurricane, it seems many either entered a state of denial or paralysis through fear and didn't take precautions or act on the plan they had.

As qazulight's posts about disaster planning pointed out, every family across the country should spend some serious time assembling a disaster and evacuation plan and identifying the things they REALLY need to essentially reconnect to their life if they lost everything in their home. IDs, cash, credit cards, financial information, critical insurance papers, decent shoes and coat, several days of clothes for each family member, critical prescriptions and medical supplies, first aid gear, cell phone and charger, WRITTEN contact information for all family members (in case the cell phone dies), etc.

Sandy isn't going to be over in weeks or even months. People will be stressing over lost family heirlooms, job and income disruptions, community organization disruptions, reconstruction hassles and insurance hassles for 2-3 years. Local, state and federal agencies will be dealing with the aftermath for a decade.


WTH

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Author: WendyBG Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407482 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 2:23 AM
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Thanks for posting your experience. Glad that you, your family and your dog are OK.

Wendy (lived on Staten Island for 5 years)

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Author: Hohum777 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407487 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 5:00 AM
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scaryblondechick, glad to hear you, your family and your dog are doing well, and have not had
any major property damage issues. I, for one, appreciate your in-the-tempest version, than
something I might read in the media. Together with Washcomp's post, it just lends a different
perspective.

Wishing you and your family continuing healthy & patience as y'all deal with a stressful situation.

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Author: notehound Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407488 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 5:11 AM
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I guess I'm just another guy like everybody I met today - we all want to tell the story, and we all have one.

Scary,

Your story made me thankful. Thankful that you're OK and even more thankful that I didn't have to go through all that.

One word of caution that I'm sure you've already thought of:

Just because you have water doesn't mean the water you're getting is safe to drink.

I would boil all my drinking and cooking water until authorities confirm that the water facilities are all properly certified as being "fully operational."

I would treat tap water as if I were living in a third world country with unsafe drinking water until the experts had declared it safe to drink.

:-o

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407492 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 7:14 AM
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A quarter mile away from his storefront, there was a ship - a really big ship, I mean, not a cargo carrier, but something not much smaller - run aground down near the old Navy Homeport.


SBC

Thanks for the great story.

I saw your "ship" on Canuck TV, it was a 700+ ton 'water tanker' with nobody on board? Clearly it broke it's moorings and went for a ride (far from the first time that has happened during a hurricane or Nor'easter).


Tim

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/water-tanker-runs-aground-in-...

Water Tanker Runs Aground in Sandy Storm

The storm surge moved a 170-foot-long tanker to land in Staten Island, New York.


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Author: qazulight Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407493 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 7:31 AM
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Scary,

Thanks,

I thought you were on Long Island! Oh well, I spent 10 months on Staten Island. St. George area. Walked to the ferry every day, rode to Manhattan, then to Governors Island for electronics school. The wife rode the ferry to, first to go to the World Trade Center for school then to her job at the Chemical Bank Branch on Governors Island.

The report is useful. Every brush stroke fills in the picture.

Qazulight

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Author: qazulight Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407495 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 7:33 AM
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If anybody has any questions I'll do my best to answer.

Next week when the lights start coming on, and the stores start opening up, check to see how many shingles are being sold and what the brand is.

Thanks
Qazulight

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407496 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 7:56 AM
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I forwarded Jeff's email to my spawn.

Rotten Kid from inside the beltway came back with:

looks like we got off easy in comparison although there are still quite a few downed trees and power outages. We had some leaking in a few of our offices and at home over the kitchen window.

...

kept our power but had a fair amount of leaking -- landlord will get it fixed. all is pretty much back to normal. Halloween was fun -- will send pictures soon.


Banker Lady was chatting on email from work in her Vancouver office (rare). I commented that she wasn't busy and her reply: "over half my clients are on the east coast... for some reason they are not calling".

Then after: Our office is still closed in Ny. Apparently we bused a bunch of bankers to Toronto. The rest are at our backup site or working from home.

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Author: StuyvesantGrad70 Big red star, 1000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407497 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 8:30 AM
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That day they announced that the NYC Specialized High School Admissions Test was cancelled, which relieved my son no end.

Wishing your son good luck when he takes the test.
-StuyvesantGrad70

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Author: scaryblondechick Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407510 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 11:23 AM
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Next week when the lights start coming on, and the stores start opening up, check to see how many shingles are being sold and what the brand is.

When I can get out there, I will. I forgot to mention, actually, that while we were driving around looking for a vet we passed the Home Depot on Targee Street, which was without power but nevertheless had opened its doors. But there was no way we were going to stop anyway.

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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407512 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 11:47 AM
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So glad you and yours were able to make it through Sandy. Your write up in no way was rambling. It was a slice of life from someone who experienced something that I can only slightly imagine. I've never been through anything like that* and really appreciate a report from inside instead of the media.

I read all of the posts from this thread, appreciated them as well. These threads on the disaster are very helpful if I should ever have to go through something even remotely similar.




*(Well, actually I went through about 3 or 4 days of no power, car frozen in place from an ice and snow storm in Georgia when I was first married-1979. I walked miles to work because I had no leave and what else was I to do at home? But it was nothing compared to what I am seeing on the news about the devastation on Staten Island and all over the area.)

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Author: scaryblondechick Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407513 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 12:04 PM
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These threads on the disaster are very helpful if I should ever have to go through something even remotely similar.

The funny thing is that once you are outside the capital "D" disaster area, everything really looks pretty much back to normal, both in Staten Island and Brooklyn, with a very few exceptions, and it normalized very quickly. The area around the vet in Brooklyn (Cobble Hill), even the next day, you wouldn't know there was anything amiss except a lot of people were biking instead of in the subways; power was up, restaurants were doing a great business. The single largest BFD I'm seeing outside the worst parts is gasoline - holy smoke, those lines are literally hours long.

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Author: Watty56 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407517 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 12:20 PM
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... p.s. - I know that was really scrolly and not particularly informational. I guess I'm just another guy like everybody I met today - we all want to tell the story, and we all have one. Sorry about that. ...


It was a good post.


With all the news it is easy to forget that 99.99% of the people in the area were not physically hurt.

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407540 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 4:31 PM
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I am glad to hear you're OK!

Question for you - what we're seeing in the news on Staten Island - are these people in Zone A that did not evacuate, or did this get into Zone C (when I looked at the evac maps I notice Staten Island had no Zone B areas) or did the water exceed past the zones.

Did people just not heed the evacuation orders, or was the plan inadequate? OR is the media just making news by find the four most unhappy people still on Staten Island and giving them a voice. What I see here is not Katrina grade but the questions of, "where the heck is the help, we need help?"

I would guess that getting the arterials of New York back in usable shape was the biggest priority - and then moving out from there - only so many resources, and a lot of people.

So glad you're OK.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407548 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 8:24 PM
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A lot of the water system works by gravity. If they can pump up water to the water tank , it flows down through the distribution systems. Of course, if pipes are broken, they have to fix them first....and shut off blocks where houses no longer exist and houses where there's nothing but broken pipes inside.

For power, they've got to go block by block, house by house, making sure the entrance box, and circuit breaker/fuse box is not 'toast', and making sure there is no standing water in the house or basement. Or that there is a house to connect, or one not condemned.

That's very labor intensive.

Glad your getting your utilities back. Folks bit*ch about the bills and don't appreciate them until they aren't there.



t.

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Author: scaryblondechick Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407560 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 10:06 PM
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Question for you - what we're seeing in the news on Staten Island - are these people in Zone A that did not evacuate, or did this get into Zone C (when I looked at the evac maps I notice Staten Island had no Zone B areas) or did the water exceed past the zones.

Did people just not heed the evacuation orders, or was the plan inadequate? OR is the media just making news by find the four most unhappy people still on Staten Island and giving them a voice. What I see here is not Katrina grade but the questions of, "where the heck is the help, we need help?"

I would guess that getting the arterials of New York back in usable shape was the biggest priority - and then moving out from there - only so many resources, and a lot of people.


I haven't looked at the news myself, but I know from talking to my neighbors and friends that what you're looking at is almost entirely Zone A that did not evac. My parents have already heard of two older women living next door to each other who would not leave their homes, fearing looters, and who drowned inside their homes. I'm sure you've heard the story of the two small boys, aged 4 and 6, whose mother was caught by storm surge in her SUV and tried to escape on foot when the surge washed the children from her grasp. If they'd left when the evac was announced instead of in the middle of the storm, those kids would be alive.

The plan was not inadequate. The shelters are dreadful, but they're better than drowning, and there was plenty of notice on radio and TV. I don't think these people believed the predictions of severity - we haven't had anything like this since the "Perfect Storm", the nor'easter in '92. But you've seen that NYC evacuation zone map - everything below Hylan Boulevard is Zone A. And there's been a huge housing boom down there during the past decade. Neighborhoods that used to be seaside "bungalows" with one or two bedrooms have been replaced by duplexes and high ranches with three or more. Density has nearly doubled - more in spots like Prince's Bay and Tottenville. New Dorp High School is inside Zone A, it's why it wasn't used as a shelter.

Arterials, yeh. Bridges first - everything was closed due to wind. Mass transit next; buses were already up by Tuesday evening in places that weren't flooded. The Brooklyn-Battery tunnel and the subways, well, that'll be great, if and when.

As for help, what there is, is still very much of an emergent nature. FEMA is giving out $300 in food stamps to those who lost power. Con Ed is handing out dry ice at one spot in each borough. The displaced are going to hotels, when they can afford it. But there's problems there.

There's a big controversy already; resources such as police coverage, generators, water are being diverted from rescue efforts toward the attempt to stage the NYC Marathon as scheduled on Sunday. Gennies, tents, water stations are being set up along the route instead of being taken to these zones. Hotels where people have taken shelter are being requested by the city to evict people who have nowhere else to go as marathoners with prior reservations begin to check in. I don't think we've seen even the beginning of that.

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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407561 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 10:25 PM
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There's a big controversy already;

Per evening news, Mayor cancelled the race, for exactly the reasons you cite: resources more needed elsewhere. 'course now the runners are mad because they came to NYC on the Mayor's assurance the race would be run as scheduled.

CBS evening news lead was from Staten Island tonight. Made the entire place look like the 9th Ward in New Orleans, with people complaining that they were being ignored.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50134430n&tag=sho...

Steve

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Author: scaryblondechick Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407563 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 10:58 PM
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'course now the runners are mad because they came to NYC on the Mayor's assurance the race would be run as scheduled.

They don't vote in this jurisdiction.

Made the entire place look like the 9th Ward in New Orleans, with people complaining that they were being ignored.

Well, hell. No, this is nothing like Katrina; our infrastructure and resources are, I think, considerably better. And we have a huge advantage just over and above all that: after the storm, the water, after all, does go back out. People being ignored - do they mean, the ones who were told to evacuate and didn't? Because the first responders do for all, no matter where. Or do they mean, the city is spending more time on the basic "arterial" stuff like subways and major through routes than on the ass end of a backward 'burb (spoken with love from someone who lives on that backward 'burb)? Because in that case, hells yeah, I bet they are.

Your home is trashed, you spent four days in a high school gymnasium eating MREs, you are going to complain. Your home is trashed, you stayed in it eating slowly spoiling cold food, you are going to complain. You lost power for a couple days but had to wait eight hours in line for gas, you are going to complain. There is no good press here.

I know people died, and it saddens me; it's not a good end, and they did nothing to deserve a bad fate. But during Katrina, 1,833 people died (I just looked) during the hurricane and subsequent floods. Right now we are on day three or four, depending on how you'd like to figure it, and the death toll just hit triple digits according to that link. And I still bet that most of those are in the areas that were told to evacuate. Dammit, your house is not worth your life.

I think New York is doing pretty damn good, all things considered.

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Author: WatchingTheHerd Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407565 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 11:11 PM
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I haven't looked at the news myself, but I know from talking to my neighbors and friends that what you're looking at is almost entirely Zone A that did not evac.

==========================

A segment on NBC's Dateline tonight included an interview with a family that escaped the fires in the Breezy Point neighborhood in Queens. Here's a rough recap from memory:

* they were IN a designated evacuation zone
* they ignored the evacuation order
* "it's only water"
* "everyone in the family can swim"
* the wind blew all the windows out of the house in one gust
* "the water was REALLY rough"
* then water flooded the basement almost instantaneously
* then water in the street prevented them from exiting the house through their door
* they then had to grab on to a surf board and attempt to float out of the house through a basement window
* once outside they saw the orange glow of a nearby house on fire
* hurricane winds were blowing embers and flaming debris one way at first
* as the wind shifted, the blowing embers blew in other directions, lighting more houses on fire, including their house

The takeaway lesson is that if you live in a propane or natural gas fueled home in a hurricane zone that's actually hit by a hurricane, any storm surge or wind gust that can shift the house even one foot can disrupt gas lines, expose gas to sparking electric wires and create a blowtorch effect in one building which, after exposed to hurricane force winds, can create a conflagration that can torch 200 houses in the bat of an eye. Even if you've personnally experienced a house fire up close, you still can't imagine a house fire accelerated by hurricane force winds. The initial reports on Breezy Point compared it to the firebombing of Dresden, Germany in WWII. That's a very accurate analogy.

That interview should be required viewing for every American living in hurricane prone areas. Make them sit down, watch this clip of one family's escape and the description of the simultaneous flood AND inferno they escaped TO, then ask them: Now, do you STILL think you can "ride out a hurricane"?


WTH

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Author: qazulight Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407567 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/2/2012 11:16 PM
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That interview should be required viewing for every American living in hurricane prone areas. Make them sit down, watch this clip of one family's escape and the description of the simultaneous flood AND inferno they escaped TO, then ask them: Now, do you STILL think you can "ride out a hurricane"?

A first responder posted from the Carolina s, I think. He said the procedure they use is something like this.

A mandatory evacuation has been called. We are not going to arrest you, however, the electricity and water and gas and sewer system will be shut down at the end of the time that has been allotted for the area to be evacuated.

Oh and here is a sharpie, be sure and write your SS number on your arm and on the arms of your children, it makes it easier for us later.

They get 99 percent compliance.

Cheers
Qazulight

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407570 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 12:11 AM
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That interview should be required viewing for every American living in hurricane prone areas. Make them sit down, watch this clip of one family's escape and the description of the simultaneous flood AND inferno they escaped TO, then ask them: Now, do you STILL think you can "ride out a hurricane"?

But, but, but, it will NEVER happen to ME. That only happens to other people. I'm smarter/better than that.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407573 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 12:36 AM
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'course now the runners are mad because they came to NYC on the Mayor's assurance the race would be run as scheduled.

They don't vote in this jurisdiction.


LOL!

Ayup! Politicians will always be politicians.

On the one hand they want to show the world "they" have everything under control. After all their's always the chance they'll see an opening for higher office some day.

On the other hand they've to please the people who'll be voting in the next election.

Would it be too much to expect them to get their communities back on their feet first?

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407579 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 6:59 AM
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"and we do have a Verizon landline"

As does my Mom, and thanks for that. It has been her lifeline in a difficult situation without electricity. (Acknowledged that other than many downed trees in her yard, she has no physical damage to her home, so she considers herself very lucky compared to most.)

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407581 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 8:00 AM
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It has been her lifeline in a difficult situation without electricity.


So much of the 'problem' is summed up by those two words? I'm thinking that hurricanes and power lines just do not seem to mix.

I lived in a house in Germany for ten years where all of the wiring was underground, we did not have a single power outage in those ten years. Rotten kid moved into a 'planned neighbourhood' with underground lines last year at the start of Irene and just went through Sandy (albeit they didn't take anywhere near the hit of New York and New Jersey) and didn't lose power in spite of many around them losing it.

Would it be possible the next time y'all are stimulating the economy to perhaps throw some of the money to burying the power lines? Would it help or would they just get flooded out?

Alternatively how about resin power poles that bend but don't break in a storm?


Any <just thinking out loud> mouse

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407582 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 8:30 AM
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You make a good point. In this example however, my Mom's neighborhood does indeed have underground power/phone lines. But much of the surrounding area (older infrastructure) that feeds the electric to her neighborhood does not.

I heard Rachel Maddow the other night commenting on this. Now for the record, I disagree with virtually everything she says - way to liberal for me. But to give credit where credit is due, she made an excellent comment. Why not, she proposed, start a gigantic stimulus project aimed solely at taking all the above ground wire infrastructure and putting it underground?

Who, she supposed, could be against such a project? I have to agree.

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Author: retirecom Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407583 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 8:55 AM
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Gasoline was the biggest issue after electricity for us after Ike hit the Houston area in '08. With 2.5M out of service 3 weeks or more restoration for some of those peole expected, I got a generator. The gas stations either didn't have electricity or if they did, had run out of fuel, so it was like a treasure hunt finding fuel as it went on.

If you and DH work in different areas, you may find one of you sees shorter lines regularly. My roommate worked in an area that had electricity restored quickly and it was less dense than where I worked, so during her work week she would alternate our cars to fuel them up and/or get fuel for the generators.

Glad things went relatively smoothly for you and yours.

RC

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407584 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 9:00 AM
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Now for the record, I disagree with virtually everything she says - way to liberal for me. But to give credit where credit is due, she made an excellent comment. Why not, she proposed, start a gigantic stimulus project aimed solely at taking all the above ground wire infrastructure and putting it underground?

Who, she supposed, could be against such a project? I have to agree.



IC

For the record, that is a really silly statement, I often agree with Cons, I just don't often tell them that. }};-D

Methinks underground wires make sense in high density areas but perhaps not for the people who insist on living in the woods at the end of a five mile fire break road. My own building is fairly new (7 years) and has the last bit underground, it is hard to put them in old buildings especially here where you have to blast through granite to build anything.

During an interview yesterday on BNN with a (IIRC) Chicago trader he commented that Canucks were much more financially conservative than USians but much more politically liberal... then he paused and said "actually the whole world is more politically liberal than the US".


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-01/bill-gross-ours-cou...

Bill Gross: "Ours Is A Country Of The SuperPAC, By The SuperPAC, And For The SuperPAC"

**** absolutely not signed ****

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Author: retirecom Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407585 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 9:01 AM
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In the Houston area, there seems to be a shift away from the dangling traffic lights to supporting them on metal bars. I'm not sure if it is for vanity or durability, tho.

One side effect of putting lines in the ground is the problems repairing them when they flood. A clip of a news story yesterday suggested it is quite challenging. Not saying it isn't less expensive or time consuming than rebuilding hundreds of miles of downed ones, just that it has its own challenges and expenses.

Would be interesting to see a cost analysis.

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407586 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 9:19 AM
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Would be interesting to see a cost analysis.

Hurricane Juan hit Halifax in September when all the leaves were still on the trees. The trees took down a tremendous number of wires and poles in the old parts of the city as well as blocking streets that kept the trucks from getting in. At the time I lived in a newly build area (my house was 2 years old) that hadn't gotten around to planting a lot of trees. We had our power back in less than 24 hours once the main lines got it.

Much of the repairs were 'patchy' and when a super Nor'easter hit us some months later (dubbed White Juan) that dumped a meter of snow in 18 hours with high winds the power was out for over a week in the old areas. We had ours back in a bit over 24 hours but couldn't leave our street for four days due to massive snow drifts exacerbated by an idiot who tried to drive his truck to his girlfriends place in the middle of the storm and blocked our street (I have pictures). }};-()


Tim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Juan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Juan

https://www.google.ca/search?q=white+juan&hl=en&rlz=...

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407587 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 9:24 AM
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I should have added that I watched them put the underground wires in once. They buried plastic pipe with a line in it, then use the line to pull a rope through that is then used to pull the wires through. Barring structural damage or the water rising above the inlet (physically impossible in Halifax as the city mostly drains into the ocean) I don't think those pipes would flood out?

Tim

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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407596 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 11:49 AM
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taking all the above ground wire infrastructure and putting it underground?

Who, she supposed, could be against such a project? I have to agree.


Recall, after the northeast blackout several years ago, there was a cry to upgrade the grid to improve reliability. The utility companies all agreed that was a good idea, as soon as the government paid them to do it.

As for the government paying for it, the cost would interfere with anouther round of trickle down tax cuts, so the project would be dismissed as "pork".

wrt the fires in Breezy Point.

first point: given the name, I suspect that neighborhood is routinely subjected to high winds.

second point: wind and fire is enough for a disaster, without a hurricane helping.

Wind-Driven Firestorm Rages through Detroit

High winds were the cause of at least some of the estimated 85 fires that raged through Detroit Tuesday afternoon.

Wind gusts at the Detroit City Airport were recorded near 50 mph, with sustained winds topping out around 30 mph.


http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/winddriven-firest...

Steve

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407602 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 1:45 PM
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The utility companies all agreed that was a good idea, as soon as the government paid them to do it.


Steve

Y'all should talk to your northern neighbours, carrots sometimes work sticks always do. Just give the companies a deadline to do it and allow them to crank up rates to pay for it... no government money required?

In truth the end result is not far off but the money doesn't spend any time in government hands?


Scheesch some people.

**** not signed ****

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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407609 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 4:03 PM
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Scheesch some people.

Y'all forgot the sarcasm tags.

You know how the US operates.

A government directive to do something is "burdensome gummit regulation that makes people pay more and destroys jobs"

Which also addresses your second suggestion "crank up rates", because no one wants to pay anything for anything.

And, in spite of all the rate cranking, with the companies pointing their finger at "big gummit" for the cost, they still don't want to be bothered with doing the upgrades. Management has a 2PM tee time, so, by the time they do the 9AM photo op with the local honcho running the United Way campaign, they barely have time to squeeze in lunch before golf.

Steve

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407611 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 4:17 PM
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They don't vote in this jurisdiction.

LOL!


To quote Bill Murray from Ghostbusters...

"If we're wrong we'll go to jail, quietly, peacefully. But if we're right...Lenny...you will have saved the lives of millions of registered voters."

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407612 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 4:26 PM
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Y'all forgot the sarcasm tags.



I thought that was your job? }};-D

Many of our power companies are provincially owned, all are provincially controlled. We simply cannot afford y'alls 'competition' in such a small population. This of course does not mean they cannot buy "hydro" for resale from private companies.

Frankly I think they do a great job of keeping it running and we produce a surplus in many areas (particularly Quebec) that helps keep the lights on in a lot of US states. The issue that bugs me is the provincial nationalism that sometimes make international borders look free flowing compared to provincial borders.

Tim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Canada

The electricity sector in Canada has played a significant role in the economic and political life of the country since the late 19th century. The sector is organized along provincial and territorial lines. In a majority of provinces, large government-owned integrated public utilities play a leading role in the generation, transmission and distribution of electricity. Ontario and Alberta have created electricity markets in the last decade in order to increase investment and competition in this sector of the economy.[1]

Canada is the world's second-largest producer of hydroelectricity,[2] which accounted for 58% of all electric generation in 2007.[3][4] Since 1960, large hydroelectric projects, especially in Quebec, British Columbia, Manitoba and Newfoundland and Labrador, have significantly increased the country's generation capacity. In Ontario, Canadian-designed CANDU nuclear reactors supplied more than half the provincial electricity demand in 2007.[4]

Canadian homes, offices and factories are large users of electricity, or hydro, as it is often called in Canada.[5] In 2007, Canadian per capita power consumption was among the highest in the world, with an average of 16,995 kilowatt-hours per annum


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Author: brucedoe Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407613 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/3/2012 4:35 PM
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scary

Driving into Manhattan now requires three persons in a vehicle. So I'm confused and have an HOV-3 Question: http://stopcontinentaldrift.blogspot.com/2012/11/hov-3-quest...

brucedoe

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Author: retirecom Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407640 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/4/2012 1:02 AM
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Would be interesting to see a cost analysis.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/_mobile/science/energy/effic...

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407667 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/4/2012 1:35 PM
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Now for the record, I disagree with virtually everything she says - way to liberal for me. But to give credit where credit is due, she made an excellent comment. Why not, she proposed, start a gigantic stimulus project aimed solely at taking all the above ground wire infrastructure and putting it underground?

Who, she supposed, could be against such a project? I have to agree.


For the record, that is a really silly statement

For the record yours is the really silly statement.

Why do you twist what people say and then attack the strawman you created?

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Author: scaryblondechick Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407674 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/4/2012 3:18 PM
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Question for you - what we're seeing in the news on Staten Island - are these people in Zone A that did not evacuate, or did this get into Zone C (when I looked at the evac maps I notice Staten Island had no Zone B areas) or did the water exceed past the zones.

Did people just not heed the evacuation orders, or was the plan inadequate? OR is the media just making news by find the four most unhappy people still on Staten Island and giving them a voice. What I see here is not Katrina grade but the questions of, "where the heck is the help, we need help?"


I want to revisit this question in light of 20-20 hindsight, and also because of some talk on another thread regarding evac options.

First let's look at NYC's interactive evac zone map:
http://gis.nyc.gov/oem/he/map.htm?lon=-74.06021595156344&...

You'll note that there are in fact a few Zone B areas - a very few. It seems to me that they're mostly placed where tidal wetlands will allow storm surge further inland than might otherwise occur. In particular, I invite you to zoom on the south shore of Staten Island, just below Seaview Avenue, where you see little rivulets and map icons which I believe mean marsh, inland of which there is a zone B area, and on the southernmost tip, south of route 440 at Richmond Valley, where you will find the Mill Creek "bluebelt", and the zone B area connects Mill Creek and its basin on the west shore with the Lemon Creek tidal area on the south shore. You can see how a flood of that zone in particular would cut Tottenville off even if it stayed dry.

You'll also see some odd juxtapositions of Zones A and C, with no intervening B area. I think these occur mostly because the grade changes abruptly in those spots. Take a look at the tiny green spot just north of the Verrazano. This is the Coast Guard Station at Cliff Street. On the south side of the street, there is a greater than 20' drop from street to beach. On the north side, a deep ravine, probably an old stream bed, brings the street and buildings within reach of the ocean. To the best of my knowledge none of zone C was flooded; in fact I know of a business in a basement suite on the corner of Huguenot and Hylan, in a zone C across the street from a zone A, and they're dry.

The other thing to notice is that both the New Jersey bridges go through A zones. Only the Verrazano, due to the height of the promontory on which it's built at Fort Wadsworth, is in a non-evac area. All three bridges were closed on Monday evening, due not to flooding but to wind conditions. Evacuation of Zone A was mandated on Sunday at around 11:30 a.m. The Jersey bridges were closed at around 6:00 p.m. on Monday, and the Verrazano closed at 7:00 p.m. That's not a lot of time, and when the bridges close to Grandma's house in Summit or Bensonhurst you have only the city shelters at two borough high schools to evacuate to. As mentioned previously, shelters are better than drowning - but I can understand why a lot of people, especially if they didn't believe predictions of severity, decided to ride it out.

After the storm, I asked hubby (former Marine E5) what he thought we would do in the event of TEOTWAWKI. He says we would walk to the Bayonne or Goethals Bridge and walk out. But the Goethals approach goes through Goethals Pond and tidal wetlands; and I know Bayonne (the town, not the bridge) was underwater. That's if they let us past the toll plazas. The Verrazano, meanwhile, has a NYPD annex station, so "if they let us" goes double there. Despite what he says, I think we'd be toast.

With regard to Milligram's second point, about "Where is the help?", let's turn back to the map. We know Route 440 is underwater at both ends. Probably the westernmost end of I278 isn't doing too well either. So that needs fixing first and most, I think. Now let's look at the south shore again. That red zone south of Hylan Boulevard, I know that neighborhood; it's built on sand (a lot of houses were destroyed in that area by the 1938 "Long Island Express", and it was underwater again during the nor'easter in '92). To get the help down there, what you do is come along Hylan Boulevard or Amboy Road and turn south - right into the water. While we were driving around on Tuesday looking for a vet, we saw at least three FDNY and local hospital ambulances being towed. I'm guessing they got flooded.

Long ago I lived in a basement apartment on Ebbitts Street in New Dorp Beach at the corner of Finley Avenue. When we had a heavy tide I could hear the surf in the storm drains; when there was a thunderstorm sand would wash up in my bathtub. If you look at New Dorp Beach on that map you'll see a lot of little streets off of Cedar Grove Avenue. Those are all very new developments, mostly semi-attached duplexes. The streets are narrow, most are one-way loops (Milbank and Neutral, for instance, connect at the back and are one way, though the map doesn't show it). I wouldn't want to be the guy driving the fire truck up those streets. And if the water moves a couple of cars, they're blocked completely.

Looking further south at Staten Island University Hospital on Seguine Avenue, you see that the hospital is not only in a mandatory evac zone, but also lies in the middle of one of those "bluebelts", between two brackish wetlands. In fact two of Staten Island's three trauma centers are in Zone A, right next to wetlands and close to the beach. So where is the help? It can't get to you because you're in the ocean, and some of the help is right there with you.

Honestly, I can't help but reiterate that, considering the physical obstacles, New York, and even Staten Island, is actually doing pretty damn good. But the worst hit, the ones who need the help the most, are going to be getting it just about last, and given the geography of this island I don't see how that can be helped.

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Author: qazulight Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407690 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/4/2012 7:54 PM
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SCARY,

Now Dats! A report!

Cheers
Qazulight

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407707 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/4/2012 10:55 PM
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I can't believe this! Are we so blasé that the online equivalent of a two page typed report gets ONLY ten recs at the end of the day?

SBC's report took a lot of thought to plan and research to implement. And it gets only 10 recs?

Here's a little info for all you rec Scrooges out there:

You get THIRTY (30) recs a day whether you use them or not.

At the end of the day (10 pm mountain time) any recs you fail to use are rescinded! They don't accumulate and leftover recs don't count as brownie points in your relationship with TMF!

You can't exchange your daily recs for e-currency!

You can't buy stuff on eBay with leftover TMF recs.

Amazon does not accept expired TMF recs for shipping charges.

The ONLY place you can use your daily issue of 30 recs is here on The Motley Fool.

Some people put a lot of work into their posts here. Don't they deserve a rec for entertaining you for a few minutes?

If someone writes something you strongly agree with don't they deserve a rec?

Also, due to the volume of posts here on METAR many of us tend to read only posts with recs. If you want others to read a post you'd best rec it. There is no other user mechanism for calling attention to a post.

C'mon! We're supposed to be a community here!

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Author: scaryblondechick Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407711 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/5/2012 12:54 AM
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Weekends are always slow.

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 407725 of 463374
Subject: Re: OT: Sandy, From Here Date: 11/5/2012 9:00 AM
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Recs are overrated.

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