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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 756518  
Subject: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 3:55 PM
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Hooray! We finally started bombing the Taliban. They can't kill enough of those S.O.B's as far as I'm concerned. It's about time. I hope we keep up this war against terrorism for a hundred years. I hope that our exectutive branch and legislative branches make funding anti-terrorism a priority from now on. Seems to me protecting the American people should be the top priority of our Federal Goverment. We need to find out where they are - and then go in - and kill them wherever they are hiding. No more Mr. Nice Guy.
- Art
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Author: galeno Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52539 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 5:35 PM
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ariechert wrote:
We finally started bombing the Taliban. They can't kill enough of those S.O.B's as far as I'm concerned. It's about time. I hope we keep up this war against terrorism for a hundred years. I hope that our exectutive branch and legislative branches make funding anti-terrorism a priority from now on.

I'm sure they can't kill enough Americans as far as they're concerned. I hope you don't keep this "war" up for a hundred years. The longer this "war" goes on, the higher the probablity that the terrorists will win. I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too.

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Author: Chipsboss Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52541 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 5:49 PM
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There he goes again, folks.

galeno: . I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too.

Your remark makes no sense to me at all. Implicitly, you acknowledge that there is we have freedom and civil liberties worth preserving in the United States. You do not acknowledge in any way that, under the Taliban, there is a complete lack of freedom and the total rejection of the Western values involved in civil liberities. Tell me, please, does your wife agree that she'd rather live under Taliban terrorists than under the United States Government? Is she ready to live where she must be completely covered up and accompanied by a close male relative whenever she leaves the house? Are you willing to abandon all education and work opportunities for you daughters, daughters-in-law, and granddaughters? Do you realize or care that your comment sounds virulently anti-American and misogynistic?

Here's my ultimatum to the Taliban: Give us bin Laden and all his followers or we'll take your women and
.
.
.
.
.
.
send them to college.

Chips, disgusted


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52543 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 6:04 PM
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<<I'm sure they can't kill enough Americans as far as they're concerned. I hope you don't keep this "war" up for a hundred years. The longer this "war" goes on, the higher the probablity that the terrorists will win. I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too.




It seems to be that we have three possible responses to attacks on the United States:


1) Give in and do what the attackers want

2) Attack and destroy those who are attacking us, if we can

3) Do nothing



We've tried 3 ---it got us the 911 attack.


Bush is trying #2.


You have a better alternative?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: ResNullius Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52545 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 6:12 PM
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. I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too.

Bull$hit

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Author: mrhowell Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52546 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 6:15 PM
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>>>>You have a better alternative? <<<

Seattle Pioneer

Sure. Take another hit. Free-base a little more. Chew them buttons.

__________________________________________________
<<I'm sure they can't kill enough Americans as far as they're concerned. I hope you don't keep this "war" up for a hundred years. The longer this "war" goes on, the higher the probablity that the terrorists will win. I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too.

It seems to be that we have three possible responses to attacks on the United States:


1) Give in and do what the attackers want

2) Attack and destroy those who are attacking us, if we can

3) Do nothing



We've tried 3 ---it got us the 911 attack.


Bush is trying #2.


You have a better alternative?

Seattle Pioneer

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Author: nnn12345 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52549 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 6:44 PM
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Galeno writes:

"I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too."

Galeno you should move to Kabul.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52551 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 7:02 PM
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<<Galeno writes:

"I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too."

Galeno you should move to Kabul. >>



If he DOES live in Kabul, that would explain the remarks he made...





Seattle Pioneer

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52556 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 8:21 PM
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I see we're tossing in some care packages along with the bombs...well that ought to screw their heads up! Perhaps we're following the advice of Captain Kirk...albeit on two different occasions:

"We come in peace...shoot to kill".




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Author: HamletsMill Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52564 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 9:09 PM
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Perhap he is just one of those souls who took to heart that famous quote by a former President:

"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."

If you operate from the premise that the bigger government becomes, the more powerful and evil it becomes. Then the prospect of war which always increases the scale and power of government (and provides a moral justification for its existence which makes the "evil" premise difficult to believe) is to be feared.

To which I can only use the same one word response...



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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52565 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 9:11 PM
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Galeno writes:

"I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too."


People criticizing that statement should read up on what the founding fathers - the people who created the US - had to say on the subject.

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52567 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 9:29 PM
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"Galeno writes:

"I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too."
"

That zany Galeno: you try scrubbing him out, spraying him out...

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52569 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 9:32 PM
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Galeno writes, "The longer this "war" goes on, the higher the probablity that the terrorists will win. I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too. "

I'm getting the impression that Costa Rica, like many small nations suffers from "LDM"...Little D*** Mentality.

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Author: rkmacdonald Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52574 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 9:47 PM
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Author: Chipsboss Date: 10/7/01 5:49 PM Number: 52541
Here's my ultimatum to the Taliban: Give us bin Laden and all his followers or we'll take your women and
.
.
.
.
.
.
send them to college.


LOL

Great post!!

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Author: allocatorx Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52579 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 10:06 PM
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galeno suggests:

The longer this "war" goes on, the higher the probablity that the terrorists will win.

The historical record suggests othertwise, galeno. You are a little overpessimistic. We should first move a little closer to your home turf to discuss the success record of long-term terrorism. Where is Che Guevara now? Six feet under, that's where. Where is Abimael Guzman, head of El Sendero Luminoso (the Shining Path terrorist group in Peru)? Rotting in a Peruvian jail, that's where.

If third-world terrorists can't even win in third-world countries, their chances of victory appear to be much slimmer when taking on a truly first-world country like the U.S. Wouldn't you agree?


allocatorx

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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52593 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 11:28 PM
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I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too.

When an elephant scratches its rump on a tree, it unintentionally squashes more termites than another termite squashes when it moves around. So if you're a termite, you have reason to fear elephants with itchy rumps. The Taliban is clearly no threat to your pot plantations, so your position makes sense.

The US government is potentially a bigger threat to freedom and civil liberties than the Taliban. That's simply because it is big and powerful and not overly concerned about termites. Still, I'm glad it plays hardball with people like Bin Laden and pseudo-governments like the Taliban. The alternative is worse.

Now, as to the appropriate penalty for Bin Laden and the Taliban mullahs, the best punishment I've heard to date was gender reassignment surgery for all of them. A few silicon implants, some hormone therapy, facial hair electrolysis and a couple of -ectomies and those boys would be singing a different tune. Mind you I'm not saying that becoming a woman is necessarily a suitable punishment for most men or most crimes, but I would like to see those guys try to command some respect on their home turf while preaching through a veil. Talk about hell on earth.

1HappyFool


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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52594 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 11:34 PM
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I hope we keep up this war against terrorism for a hundred years.

I hope we can win the war in a generation or two and not have to wait 100 years.


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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52595 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 11:35 PM
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I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too.

Galeno - I dont want you to take the following personally, but...

You come across to me as a dope smoking, tree hugging, ex-pat, draft dodging, self absorbed, surfer boy who doesnt give a rat's @ss if women, children, or other innocent victims die - provided it doesnt crimp your right to burn more weed and brain cells all while being free from even a modicum of responsibility.

Of course, that's only my opinion, and I could be wrong.

Golfwaymore,
Feeling much better






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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52596 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/7/2001 11:39 PM
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I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too.

This is an extremely foolish comment. We are fighting this war to protect our freedom and civil liberties. The Taliban, and most Islamic regimes, provide almost no freedom at all to their citizens and would apply such lack of freedoms to the rest of the world if they could.

We are going to prevent it.


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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52600 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 12:18 AM
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"I'm sure they can't kill enough Americans as far as they're concerned. I hope you don't keep this "war" up for a hundred years. The longer this "war" goes on, the higher the probablity that the terrorists will win. I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties, you should be too." - galeno

Galeno, don't you live in Costa Rica? Why are you afraid of the United States? All we do is pour money into Costa Rica in the form of tourist dollars and probably aid. It's my understanding that Costa Rica doesn't even have a standing army. Who do you think protects you from all your neighboring countries? Their good intentions? If it wasn't for the United States goverment they would come in and strip Costa Rica bare. Your banks would be gone, your jungle would be pulpwood, and your women would be in brothels in Columbia. Don't kid yourself, it's fear of the U.S. that keeps all the scum of South America at bay. And, why should I be afraid of the United States goverment? I am 48 years old and they have never done anything to harm me. And, if they protect me from terrorists they will have my undying gratitude. President Bush has my undying support in his war against terrorism. We need to make it a top priority to keep fighting terrorism. - Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52601 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 12:29 AM
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I see we're tossing in some care packages along with the bombs...well that ought to screw their heads up! Perhaps we're following the advice of Captain Kirk...albeit on two different occasions:

"We come in peace...shoot to kill".


I heard on TV today that the care packages are in special containers that don't need parachutes. Can't you just see a giant box full of corn or wheat smacking down near the Afghani's? They probably think we are trying to kill them by hitting them on the head. - Art




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Author: zay34kc3 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52606 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 1:00 AM
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And, why should I be afraid of the United States goverment? I am 48 years old and they have never done anything to harm me.

I wonder if a 48 year old Japanese-American thought this same thought before Pearl Harbor and the internment of said people.

I wonder if people in the Army, Hollywood, and the country thought this same thought during the Cold War before McCarthy came along.

I wonder if the mother, whose house was confiscated and auctioned under drug seizure laws, thought this same thought before the DEA wrecked her life because her son was selling drugs from her house without her knowledge or permission.

The US has never done anything to me either. That doesn't mean that I'm going to blindly assume that all these new powers and laws being proposed to fight terrorism are not going to infringe on my liberties.

I believe part of galeno's original post took issue with the "100 year" concept. I agree with this. The longer it takes to wipe out these sub-humans, the more frustrated people will become. The more likely they will be to hand over freedoms and liberties so the government has the "tools" to fight terrorism.

This is not to say that we shouldn't go get these guys. However, we should give pause to what we bring upon ourselves with our own laws. I think galeno, like the peace activitists with whom I disagree, serves an important role. So important, that I'll state that I agree with him completely.

An overbearing government intent on trampling my liberties in the name of freedom is far more dangerous than a terrorist. Terrorists can smash planes into buildings, blow up malls, and possibly spread anthrax affecting a large portion of the population. A government can take away all our lives, all our families, all our properties, all our identities, all our freedoms....all with the "legitimacy" of the law and support of my very own tax dollars.

zay34kc3


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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52608 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 1:17 AM
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"I hope we keep up this war against terrorism for a hundred years."- Art

"I hope we can win the war in a generation or two and not have to wait 100 years." - mark33

I just remember the war in Viet Nam and how quickly we became disenchanted with it. I hope we never forget September 11, 2001; I know I won't. I will always remember where I was and how I felt when I heard about the attacks. My knees got weak and I was incredibly sad. I thought WWIII was about to begin. The Arabs and Jews have been fighting for 4,000 years. The Muslims and Christians have been fighting in the Balkans for over 500 years. To believe we are going to make peace between the Jews and Arabs is completely illogical. The Muslims equate the United States with Israel and they HATE Israel. As long as there is an Israel there will Islamic terrorists. We need to be resolved to combat terrorism or we will be targets again very quickly. They think like my dogs. If they see a helpless little bunny it is nothing more than an opportunity to pounce on it and tear it to shreds. They are not Christians, nor do they think like Christians. And, we make a big mistake to believe they do. They are convinced that we are the reasons for all their problems in the middle east. There will be no peace in the middle east - ever. Even if the Palestinians get a homeland it will be nothing more than a base of operations against Israel. - Art


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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52609 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 1:28 AM
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"An overbearing government intent on trampling my liberties in the name of freedom is far more dangerous than a terrorist. Terrorists can smash planes into buildings, blow up malls, and possibly spread anthrax affecting a large portion of the population. A government can take away all our lives, all our families, all our properties, all our identities, all our freedoms....all with the "legitimacy" of the law and support of my very own tax dollars." - zay34kc3

What good are your liberties if your dead from anthrax or dead because some crazy terrorists detonated a nuclear device in your city? And what about all the children that lost parents on September 11th? If the goverment listens in on my phone conversations all they are going to hear is me discussing with my sister where the cheapest place to buy chicken is. I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. I don't cheat on my taxes and I don't cheat on my wife. They can listen in all they want but it will be pretty boring. I have nothing to hide. - Art


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Author: mrhowell Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52610 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 1:46 AM
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I was going to title a new thread "The Real Enemy" but thought it was more appropriate as a follow-on here to this one.

DO NOT let the name of the URL throw you. It's kind of longish read but informative. Ithink it is in keeping with what many know intuitively.

http://www.secularislam.org/wtc2.htm

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52612 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 1:50 AM
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the best punishment I've heard to date was gender reassignment surgery for all of them. A few silicon implants, some hormone therapy, facial hair electrolysis and a couple of -ectomies and those boys would be singing a different tune. Mind you I'm not saying that becoming a woman is necessarily a suitable punishment for most men or most crimes, but I would like to see those guys try to command some respect on their home turf while preaching through a veil. Talk about hell on earth.

This doesn't go far enough. After the gender reassignment surgery I say we should make them Jimmy Swaggart's motel whores.



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Author: peteyperson Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52614 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 2:18 AM
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Isn't 1 & 3 the same thing?

I'm more worried about what the "war" is doing to the economy.

The economy was on shaky ground in the US and here in the UK prior to this, but since NY & Washington, people worldwide seem to have lost their nerve. Companies are reducing staff and expenses in expectation of a drawn out recession and a drawn out campagn. It couldn't have come at a worse time for me and my business frankly.

Petey

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Author: lyndontoo Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52615 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 2:18 AM
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"The Arabs and Jews have been fighting for 4,000 years."

Actually during most of the last dozen centuries the Jews were much more persecuted and likely to die in pogroms in Christian-controlled countries. I can dig up references next library visit (next weekend) if you'd like a bibliography.

Before the 600's of course the Arabs were not a significant problem to Jews as they lacked political unity. Babylonians (for destroyed the first temple), Romans (who destroyed the second temple), Greeks, Egyptians were more of a problem during the previous millenia.



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Author: peteyperson Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52616 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 2:20 AM
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That's a Hitler comment. They're about to invade us, attack first.

They're not about to invade America.

Petey


This is an extremely foolish comment. We are fighting this war to protect our freedom and civil liberties. The Taliban, and most Islamic regimes, provide almost no freedom at all to their citizens and would apply such lack of freedoms to the rest of the world if they could.

We are going to prevent it.


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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52618 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 2:55 AM
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That's a Hitler comment. They're about to invade us, attack first.

They're not about to invade America.

Petey


Uh? Excuse me? They all ready have. Have you all ready forgotten September 11th? And by the way one of the terrorists was trying to buy a crop duster. What the heck do you think he wanted to do? Spray some fields? How stupid do you think we American are? I am so tired of every time the PC police want to put someone down they accuse of us of being "Hitler" or "Nazi's." I will NEVER forget the World Trade Center's coming down, thousands of people losing their lives, or the thousand of people who lost their loved ones in those buildings. It is unforgiveable. If it had happened in London you might feel differently. Before September 11th I was one of the biggest apologists of Islam. Not any more. I know it for what it is. It is a religion based on violence and terror. It has no place in a modern world. I'm not too fond of the Old Testament scripture's where God told the Israelites to wipe out entire civilizations either. That was genocide. And I also don't like the old testament scriptures about treatment of gentile slaves. I have the right to criticize evil when I see it. To say that all religions are equal and teach exactly the same thing is naive. I can still care for the people but I don't have to like their religion. - Art




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Author: fietser Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52623 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 6:48 AM
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The poster's ignorance was evident. I can't believe that people have such black-and-white views.
Ariechert should be ashamed of himself.

And by the way, is he aware of the biggest threat to the US troops? It is the Stinger anti-aircraft weapon , delivered to the Taliban by Reagan's government. They had a thousand of them.
When the Taliban was still an enemy of US's enemy Russia they were seen as friends.. now the situation is reversed and Russia has become the enemy of the enemy.

We in Europe all hope that the terrorists will be punished but we sincerely hope the Afghan people will be safe. Sofar it seems that things are handled well

Fietser

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Author: cmorford Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52627 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 8:05 AM
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1HappyFool said:Now, as to the appropriate penalty for Bin Laden and the Taliban mullahs, the best punishment I've heard to date was gender reassignment surgery for all of them.

Great punishment, but I have to disagree about it being the best...

One of my cow-orkers came up with this on Friday...

"When we capture Bin-Laden, we make an announcement that on a certain day, at a certain time, he will be dropped off in Times Square...
This event should be televised..."

I love it...

Chuck

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Author: FoolishDavey One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52629 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 8:12 AM
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Arriving at the airport three hours before your flight to be humiliated by being frisked and asked for id three times?
What civil liberties?

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Author: whd23 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52630 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 8:56 AM
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What civil liberties?

You know, I'm really sick of hearing this "civil liberties" tirade from the press and people on the left (Sorry, I know that was redundant). Civil Liberties is a very broad category. Could you please be more specific as to which of your rights under the U.S. Constitution are being infringed upon?

The nay-sayers love to paint with broad strokes because it makes their position seem so much stronger, but the devil's in the details.


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Author: InvestorLou55 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52631 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 8:57 AM
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That's all right Galeno, while the war rages on and you and your family's freedoms are lost, just go smoke some more weed, you'll never know the difference.

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52633 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 9:30 AM
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That's a Hitler comment. They're about to invade us, attack first.

They're not about to invade America.


Except that they did "invade" America ! Part of how I define freedom is being able to work in a skyscraper without being killed by a terrorist in a plane, and being able to breathe the air without contracting anthrax.

We are fighting for our freedom.


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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52634 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 9:33 AM
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We in Europe all hope that the terrorists will be punished but we sincerely hope the Afghan people will be safe. So far it seems that things are handled well.

Not only will they be safe for the most part, they will be safer than they have been under the Taliban and while we are weakening the Taliban, they have the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to form a government they believe in and support.


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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52635 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 9:35 AM
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That's all right Galeno, while the war rages on and you and your family's freedoms are lost, just go smoke some more weed, you'll never know the difference.

I think he is more worried about his fidecomisos paying off than his weed. After all, without money, the quinta and weed bills won't be able to be paid.


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Author: zay34kc3 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52637 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 10:06 AM
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If the goverment listens in on my phone conversations all they are going to hear is me discussing with my sister where the cheapest place to buy chicken is. I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. I don't cheat on my taxes and I don't cheat on my wife. They can listen in all they want but it will be pretty boring. I have nothing to hide.

but the problem is, some people out there do have something to hide. they engage in activities that may be illegal yet affect no one but themselves. they may engage in activities that aren't illegal but which they don't want published or made public. just think of the activities of the FBI (and others) that led to the creation of the Privacy Act of 1974.

zay34kc3

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52639 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 10:15 AM
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<<The Muslims equate the United States with Israel and they HATE Israel. As long as there is an Israel there will Islamic terrorists. >>


This is an interesting question.

I certainly hope that George Bush is succesful in destroying the terrorist organizations and protecting the United States from this kind of attack.


But I think we need to consider the origins of the hatred that terorism represents and consider whther American policies are fanning the flames of that hatred and what we might do that would change that opinion.

Personally, if support for Israel is going to cost the United States the hate of the Islamic world, it aint worth it. Israel was establisehd in the heart of arab territory because of British power in the form of the Palestine Mandate and western guilt over jewish massacres during World War II. American power has saved Israel's bacon on several occasions since then.

As long as support of Israel could be done on the cheap by the United States, I had no particular objection to that policy ---it is a gutty little country. But if support of Israel is going to cost the United States the united opposition of the Islamic world, that is far too high a price. I think the United States should reconsider its support of Israel and probably dump them altogether.

You know, the Crusader state established by Christian invaders of palestine lasted 200 years before being overwhelmed by arab attacks and opposition. It proved to be too isolated to survive arab opposition and attacks. Israel has the same problem.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Daryll40 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52640 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 10:31 AM
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Be careful buying into the argument that support for Israel is the problem. If there was no Israel, would the Iranians have still overrun our embassy and taken hostages (in retaliation for proping up the Shah for 25 years)? If there was no Israel, would millions still have died in the Iran-Iraq war? If there was no Israel, would Saddam have been fat and happy as he was and NOT invaded Kuwait (Saudi Arabia would have been next)? And would have Saddam used that nuclear reactor (the one that Israel got heat for taking out in 1981) for peaceful purposes? And would the Syrians have stayed out of Lebanon?

Daryll40



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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52644 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:22 AM
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"You know, I'm really sick of hearing this "civil liberties" tirade from the press and people on the left (Sorry, I know that was redundant). Civil Liberties is a very broad category. Could you please be more specific as to which of your rights under the U.S. Constitution are being infringed upon?

The nay-sayers love to paint with broad strokes because it makes their position seem so much stronger, but the devil's in the details. "


There probably afraid someone is going to find their drugs. And by the way, I'm not ashamed of myself; just realistic. I don't live in some La-La land where is everyone is nice and sweet. We are dealing with evil people and and evil religion. Don't kid yourself, these people that you are so worried about were dancing in the street giving out candy when they heard what happened on September 11ths. They totally hate us. While you are sitting around worrying about their welfare they are wishing you were dead. - Art


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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52645 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:24 AM
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I said:
>>Now, as to the appropriate penalty for Bin Laden and the Taliban mullahs, the best punishment I've heard to date was gender reassignment surgery for all of them.<<

Chuck said:
Great punishment, but I have to disagree about it being the best...

One of my cow-orkers came up with this on Friday...

"When we capture Bin-Laden, we make an announcement that on a certain day, at a certain time, he will be dropped off in Times Square...
This event should be televised..."

I love it...


Ordinarily, I would agree with you, but this would surely result in a fairly quick death for him. That's not justice imho. It might feel better for us, but it won't hurt him as much as he deserves. The punishment I mentioned would be even better if it could be done without his knowledge so he would have to believe it was "the will of Allah". He would just wake up naked one day in some sleasy back alley of Kabul (are there any other kind?). Maybe AIDS could be added to his punishment. How's that for justice?

1HF


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Author: Gary11112 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52647 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:29 AM
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Arriving at the airport three hours before your flight to be humiliated by being frisked and asked for id three times?
What civil liberties?


LOL. It's amazing how far someone can reach with (apparently) a straight face to claim how severely they have been violated. If only you had been asked for ID a fourth time. You undoubtedly would have qualified for the "Political Martyr of the Year Award".

Gary

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Author: galeno Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52649 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:31 AM
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Dang! I thought most of you Americans would be back to worrying about really important things like "Where is Chandra?" and the type of cigars that Bill and Monica used before, during, and after sex. <g>

Let me tell you who even scares me more than the US govt, it's the young woman who drives an SUV while talking on her cell phone and puts her makeup on all at the same time. Now that's a real terrorist! <vbg>.

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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52653 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:51 AM
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The nay-sayers love to paint with broad strokes because it makes their position seem so much stronger, but the devil's in the details.

The danger is that the definition of "probable cause" will expand or be thrown out the window and that speaking out against the government will become a crime. Ironically, the extreme left and the extreme right align at these points. Both want more control over the populace and the Constitution blocks them. We have a Constitutional right to be secure in our "person and papers". This means wiretaps require probable cause and ethnicity, national origin, appearance or exercise of free speech shouldn't give the government the right to circumvent your privacy. Just as driving away from a bar should not be allowed to trigger a sobriety check, saying something anti-government or being swarthy-looking should not trigger an assumption of threat.

1HF -- who's hoping the Constitution doesn't become TP for the PC.


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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52654 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:55 AM
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Be careful buying into the argument that support for Israel is the problem. If there was no Israel, would the Iranians have still overrun our embassy and taken hostages (in retaliation for proping up the Shah for 25 years)? If there was no Israel, would millions still have died in the Iran-Iraq war? If there was no Israel, would Saddam have been fat and happy as he was and NOT invaded Kuwait (Saudi Arabia would have been next)? And would have Saddam used that nuclear reactor (the one that Israel got heat for taking out in 1981) for peaceful purposes? And would the Syrians have stayed out of Lebanon?

... and would the Taliban cease imprisoning Christians and destroying Buddhist relics ?


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Author: ChocoKitty Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52656 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:57 AM
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1HF -- who's hoping the Constitution doesn't become TP for the PC.

Oh, let's face it. At this rate, the anti-flag burning amendment to the Constitution will actually pass this time around. I've heard too many "the Constitution is an ancient document that shouldn't apply anymore" comments from both ends of the political spectrum.

CK

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52661 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 12:28 PM
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Personally, if support for Israel is going to cost the United States the hate of the Islamic world, it aint worth it. "

It is EXACTLY because they want us to do that, that we cannot, and should not EVER change our stance.

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Author: bookgrrrl Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Winner! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52663 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 12:33 PM
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I, for one, am far more fearful of the US government than I am of any terrorists. If you value freedom and civil liberties,
you should be too.


Galeno - I dont want you to take the following personally, but...
You come across to me as a ... tree hugging,


Hey now! On behalf of all tree-huggers everywhere, I say: them's fighting words!

I know that I'm not a regular on this board (I'm a LBYM regular). I found my way here via a post on the "Best Of" board. I haven't even read through this entire thread, so I may well be repeating what others have already stated. I'll apologize in advance if this post intrudes on the RE community, but I did want to respond to Galeno's post.

I'm one of those radical feminist, tree-hugging, Birkinstock-wearing, candle-vigil-holding, demonstration-going women who believes in animal rights (GASP!), environmentalism (SHUDDER!), and the power of psychotherapy to change lives (UNCOMFORTABLE SILENCE). However, I also have a deep and abiding love for my country, and a profound sense of gratitude that transcends all of my political complaints, due to one simple, astonishing fact: in this country, someone like me can exist.

Galeno, your post expressed a concern with civil liberties. So let's review some of mine, granted to me by the country in which I reside: I can have as many demonstrations and candlelight vigils as I want, and as long as I and my hairy-legged pals destroy no property, we'll be allowed to peacefully march and sing and clap our hands and hoist our placards until we grow bunions. Pretty amazing, no? And I can have my most radical friends over for dinner any night of the week, and let them sit around my tiny living room ranting about capitalism and corruption and gender politics, and after they leave, I can go to bed secure in the knowledge that no one will come knocking on my door late in the night to take me away, or to ask for the names of my friends.

I am free to write anything I want - anything! can you see how extraordinary this is? - and disseminate it to my friends and colleagues, no matter how reactionary or bizarre my ideas. Right now, I could create a small pamphlet on my computer claiming that aliens carried out the 911 attacks - or that we should all be afraid of the U.S. government due to impending civil rights violations - and it would not even cross my mind to think that I would go to jail for this, or that my family would be harassed, or that my mail would be read, or that my computer would be smashed to bits. You yourself made your post, critical of the U.S., freely and without similar fears.

And if golfwaymore is sitting at work right now, reading this post and wondering where a nice grrl like me got such nutty ideas, I could tell him that it was at college and graduate school, where I was free to apply and enroll. The only limitation to my access to education was my academic merit - if I met entrance requirements, I could attend. Once enrolled, I was free to read any books I wanted, to talk to and associate with any professors I wanted, to write any papers I wanted, and to espouse any theories in which I believed. At times, this freedom was difficult for me to bear - for example, at one University I attended, one of the professors was a virulently anti-semitic Holocaust denier. As an observant Jew, it was acutely painful for me to see him out on the sidewalk in front of his office, holding up his crazy signs and shouting his offensive slogans. But there it is, Galeno, the powerful beauty of this country - that I, a Jew, and he, an anti-semite, could exist on the same campus, in the same town, with extremely divergent beliefs and lifestyles, without ever coming to blows and without one of us ever being silenced by the other.

If SeattlePioneer is sitting at home right now, reading this post and wondering what kind of marriage a grrl like me could possibly have, I could tell him that it's a wonderful marriage, since I was free to choose my DH myself. I was even free to live in sin with him prior to our marriage, and far from getting stoned to death for it, I actually got a couple of nice pots from my mom (thanks, mom). And should my much-adored husband ever decide that he's had enough of all the "Up With Women" and "Save the Little Animals" and "Teach Non-Violence to the Children" crap that goes on in our household, and that he wants to trade me in for a less tree-huggy gal, he will have to wend himself through a court process that is designed (despite its faults) to treat us equally, and to protect my property and financial interests just as much as his.

If others on this board are reading this and wishing that they could crack me up across the side of my head for being such an earth grrl, I can tell them to go ahead, because I have access to the finest medical care in the world - and I rest easy in the knowledge that even if my physician is a Republican, or a fraternity brother, or a logger, he or she will still use all of their skill in stiching my head up, regardless of our divergent political beliefs, simply because that is how we do it here in the U.S. (Of course, I wouldn't recommend that anyone try to mess with me, cuz I take boxing lessons and I lift serious weights, so y'all better stand back and give the grrl her space).

If there is one thing that I know, it's that a woman like me could never, never exist in a country like Afghanistan, where women and girls are executed for wearing make-up, for reading certain books or watching certain movies, for learning to read, for exposing parts of their bodies from underneath the chador, even for being raped. Women in Afghanistan have no access to education, no access to medical care, no right to choose who they marry, no right to self-determination in any sense of the word. Did you know that women in Afghanistan are committing suicide in record numbers? Since they do not have access to guns, the only way for them to kill themselves is to injest lye and other cleaning solutions. It takes, on average, three excruciatingly painful days for them to die. I imagine that they choose this route because, after seeing their mothers and sisters and friends and daughters tortured, raped, beaten, and threatened into mute submission - and after seeing their fathers, husbands, and sons murdered by the Taliban for refusing to fight in the Taliban army, or for articulating disagreement with the Taliban, or simply for holding a valuable home or piece of land - they cannot fathom that life holds any promise, any hope, any chance of decency or peace or simply an end to suffering. Contrast that with me, Galeno, who is hoping to get pregnant soon, secure in the knowledge that my son or daughter will have the opportunity - largely unprecedented in history - to grow up and do, be, say, write, pray, and believe anything that he or she wants.

I hope, of course, that my children understand how unbelievably lucky they are to be born at this moment in time, at this point in history, in this country, even with all of its excesses and faults. How many people, living in other countries right now, can say that? In how many countries could someone like me exist? Not in Afghanistan, where I would have been killed long ago.

So, this has all been a long-winded way of saying: I disagree with you. I'm not afraid of the U.S. government. In fact, I'm grateful for and humbled by the privileges with which I live. And if I have to have some of those privileges taken away in order to ensure that other Americans - as well as citizens of other countries who want desperately to become Americans - can live in safety, then I say: bring it on. I owe this country that much, don't you think?

bookgrrrl

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52666 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 12:37 PM
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Galeno said, "Let me tell you who even scares me more than the US govt, it's the young woman who drives an SUV while talking on her cell phone and puts her makeup on all at the same time. Now that's a real terrorist! <vbg>. "

I'm beginning to think the Taliban are in Costa Rica. What should we do about it guys?

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52668 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 1:00 PM
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<<Arriving at the airport three hours before your flight to be humiliated by being frisked and asked for id three times?
What civil liberties? >>



Heh, heh! I'm always amused by how solicitous the Federal Courts are about unreasonable searches ----but just see what happens when you try to walk into a federal courthouse.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52669 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 1:06 PM
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<<but the problem is, some people out there do have something to hide. they engage in activities that may be illegal yet affect no one but themselves. they may engage in activities that aren't illegal but which they don't want published or made public. just think of the activities of the FBI (and others) that led to the creation of the Privacy Act of 1974.
>>


Perhaps this also led to the act of terrorism of 2001.


Seattle Pioneer




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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52670 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 1:08 PM
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<<Be careful buying into the argument that support for Israel is the problem. If there was no Israel, would the Iranians have still overrun our embassy and taken hostages (in retaliation for proping up the Shah for 25 years)? If there was no Israel, would millions still have died in the Iran-Iraq war? If there was no Israel, would Saddam have been fat and happy as he was and NOT invaded Kuwait (Saudi Arabia would have been next)? And would have Saddam used that nuclear reactor (the one that Israel got heat for taking out in 1981) for peaceful purposes? And would the Syrians have stayed out of Lebanon?

Daryll40
>>


Couldn't hurt.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52673 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 1:29 PM
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<<". This means wiretaps require probable cause and ethnicity, national origin, appearance or exercise of free speech shouldn't give the government the right to circumvent your privacy. Just as driving away from a bar should not be allowed to trigger a sobriety check, saying something anti-government or being swarthy-looking should not trigger an assumption of threat.
>>


My, you certainly are capable of reading your prejudices and assumptions into the constitution, just like the courts.


Limits on wiretapping should be determined by the Congress by law, not by the courts that lack the information, judgement or responsibility to protect the country.


Similarly, driving away from a bar sounds like reasonable grounds for checking on whether someone has been drinking and driving.


And the events of 9/11 make a good case that the idea of racial profiling is a law enforcement tool that should be controlled politically, not legally.







Seattle Pioneer

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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52676 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 2:06 PM
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Ordinarily, I would agree with you, but this would surely result in a fairly quick death for him. That's not justice imho. It might feel better for us, but it won't hurt him as much as he deserves.

I still cant figure out why, if Bin Laden is such a devout muslim, and longs to see Ala and his 72 virgins in waiting, why he wasnt front and center on one of the hijacked planes that hit America?

Golfwaymore

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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52679 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 2:17 PM
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bookgrrrl wrote: And if golfwaymore is sitting at work right now...

Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! <grin>

But everything else in your post was great!

Golfwaymore

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52680 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 2:31 PM
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Arriving at the airport three hours before your flight to be humiliated by being frisked and asked for id three times? What civil liberties?

A few years ago, a collegue and I were on our way of Romania. At the airport everything was examined, including my bottle of water. Then a woman who reminded me of the Russian gym teacher caricature on the James Bond movies started in with "the wand". I was OK, but my collegue was wearing jeans. Everyone of those little rivets and the zipper caused "the wand" to go off. "The wand" examined every spot very closely. Afterwards, he commented "That was close - in another minute, I might have embarrassed myself".

We didn't mind, though - we just felt safer getting on the airplane.

So, you can just hope that being frisked might give you a little added, uh, "joy".

arrete - who also had a piece of carry on minutely searched in Frankfurt. It was full of used undies. But that's another story

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52684 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 2:51 PM
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Arriving at the airport three hours before your flight to be humiliated by being frisked and asked for id three times?
What civil liberties?


Well, you have the liberty of taking a train or car. Or a boat if you're going overseas. You also have the liberty of knowing that the terrorist who was going to crash your plane decided to cancel his plans when the security got beefed up.

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Author: mpkear Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52686 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 2:59 PM
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D*** bookgrrrl,

What a post. I've read many posts of yours over on LBYM, but I can't keep up with all of the posts there. Stick around here for awhile so we can hear more from you.

Mark

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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52690 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 3:40 PM
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Limits on wiretapping should be determined by the Congress by law, not by the courts that lack the information, judgement or responsibility to protect the country.

Slippery slope.

Similarly, driving away from a bar sounds like reasonable grounds for checking on whether someone has been drinking and driving.

Slippery slope.

And the events of 9/11 make a good case that the idea of racial profiling is a law enforcement tool that should be controlled politically, not legally.

Slippery slope.

Could the Thought Police be far behind?

1HF


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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52691 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 3:48 PM
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"I still cant figure out why, if Bin Laden is such a devout muslim, and longs to see Ala and his 72 virgins in waiting, why he wasnt front and center on one of the hijacked planes that hit America?"

Golfwaymore


Because he's a coward. - Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52693 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 3:59 PM
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Limits on wiretapping should be determined by the Congress by law, not by the courts that lack the information, judgement or responsibility to protect the country. - seattle pioneer

Slippery slope.- 1HF

Similarly, driving away from a bar sounds like reasonable grounds for checking on whether someone has been drinking and driving. - seattle pioneer

Slippery slope. -1HF

And the events of 9/11 make a good case that the idea of racial profiling is a law enforcement tool that should be controlled politically, not legally. - seattle pioneer

Slippery slope. - 1HF

Could the Thought Police be far behind?

1HF


1HF, do you have something to hide? - art


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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52695 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 4:07 PM
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"I still cant figure out why, if Bin Laden is such a devout muslim, and longs to see Ala and his 72 virgins in waiting, why he wasnt front and center on one of the hijacked planes that hit America?

Golfwaymore "

Because radical BS is what he sells, not what he consumes...but then you really knew that anyway, eh?

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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52703 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 5:03 PM
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1HF, do you have something to hide? - art

Who me? I probably live a cleaner life than you, Art. I just don't like it when incorrect assumptions are used as harassment tools, scapegoaters, or for other corrupt purposes.

For instance, if one can be given a sobriety test for driving away from a bar, with no evidence of drunken behavior, the assumtion is driving away from a bar equals drinking too much. The cops can be used as tools of a campaign contributor to drive a competitor's bar out of business.

And what if a cop presumed to assume that an adult driving away from a school is a pedophile? Would that become sufficient probable cause for searching a person's home? With over 40,000 laws on the books, the cop could surely find evidence that at least one was being broken. History shows that harassment on flimsy grounds is a tool of authoritarians. They use it to control their "subjects".

Pretty soon, the message becomes totalitarian. You exist at the sufferance of your rulers. The Constitution is the strength of our society. Letting the whims of a majority from 335 senior class presidents and 100 country club members determine what is Constitutional is dangerous. They have the power to change the Constitution. The courts have the power to interpret it. By design, this helps keep elected officials from being too reactive.

1HF


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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52704 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 5:20 PM
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I just don't like it when incorrect assumptions are used as harassment tools, scapegoaters, or for other corrupt purposes.

I don't either. But we know what the terrorists look like and if we carefully check out people who look like them this is prudence, not harassment, nor is it for a corrupt purpose. If the pilots of the crashed planes had refused to fly with those mideast-looking guys on board, we'd have had lots of accusations of harrassment and discrimination, but we'd still have the WTC. I can see where you're going with this--I agree that Falwell would be happy to put all the gays in concentration camps and Hillary would like to do the same with the right-wing conspiracy, but I don't think that limiting the precaution to this particular set of circumstances will bring us to that point.



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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52705 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 5:49 PM
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fleg9bo:

<<<<I just don't like it when incorrect assumptions are used as harassment tools, scapegoaters, or for other corrupt purposes.>>>>

"I don't either. But we know what the terrorists look like and if we carefully check out people who look like them this is prudence, not harassment, nor is it for a corrupt purpose."

Would that be we know the terrorists specifically because we identified them and are looking for specific people or that we "know" generally what we think they look like and anyone vaguely middle eastern lloking male between 15 and 50 just ought to accept being harrassed?

Curiously, JAFO

Then there is that classic profiling issue that those who are early to get on (or off, as the case may be) are too anxious and thus suspect; those who are in the middle are trying to hard to be non-descript and "normal" and are therefore suspicious; and those who are last on (or off, as the case may be) are waiting and hoping that you let your guard down and are therefore also suspicious. IOW, everyone is equally suspicious (or no one is) and therefore the distinction is meaningless.




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Author: mrhowell Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52708 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 6:06 PM
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If a murderer looks like me and drives a little blue car like mine and the police stop me and question/investigate me, should I complain of profiling or harrassment? No.

Society has every right and reason and OBLIGATION to protect itself. My problem is not with the police or the larger society. My problem, the source of my angst and inconvenience, is with the counterproductive moron who robbed the bank and killed the tellers in the first place.

In this, real-world do-or-die situation which we find ourselves the murderers, the people who have professed a willingness, even a need, to murder an unlimited number of Americans and others who are not "like them" happen to be mostly Arabs and all Muslims. The Presbyterians haven't declared any kind of war on The West or Americans or anyone.
The people we need to defend ourselves from are mostly Arabs and all of them Muslims.

We have every right and reason and OBLIGATION to protect ourselves. If we don't, they have already won by exploiting, yes, another weakness in our society.

As one who's family came from The Mediterranean region, in my life I have been taken, by people from the U.S. and other countries, for Jewish, Turkish, French, Puerto Rican, Mexican, and Italian. I know what it's like to "look" like a "this" or a "that".

If any Arabic looking person (which could include me as I have already been taken many many times for Turkish and Jewish. That "look" is not very far off) or any Muslim objects to being stopped and questioned by police their problem is NOT with US. Is NOT with America. Is NOT with the police. Their problem is with people who look like them and worship as they do. That is where their anger should be directed. They have every OBLIGATION to cooperate.

Anyone with any objection to this or who attempts to deflect attention with baseless talk of profiling and other rehtorical dog-and-pony-shows would be very, very suspicious.

Or do we just roll over and commit "suicide by murder" (Sounds like a "Columbo" episode) due to excessive niceness and misguided concern based on "looks", for those who would destroy us? WE are not the bad guys here.

' sorry this is so long
__________________________________


>>>>>>I just don't like it when incorrect assumptions are used as harassment tools, scapegoaters, or for other corrupt purposes.<<<<

Fleg9bo...

>>>I don't either. But we know what the terrorists look like and if we carefully check out people who look like them this is prudence, not harassment, nor is it for a corrupt purpose. If the pilots of the crashed planes had refused to fly with those mideast-looking guys on board, we'd have had lots of accusations of harrassment and discrimination, but we'd still have the WTC. I can see where you're going with this--I agree that Falwell would be happy to put all the gays in concentration camps and Hillary would like to do the same with the right-wing conspiracy, but I don't think that limiting the precaution to this particular set of circumstances will bring us to that point. <<<<<<



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Author: MSHH Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52709 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 6:12 PM
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>> But we know what the terrorists look like and if we carefully check out people who look like them this is prudence, not harassment, nor is it for a corrupt purpose.<<

We know what the terrorists look like? What did Timothy McVeigh look like? Like the kid next door.

The only way the terrorists can win in the long run is if we allow the terrorists to create such fear that we overreact and begin to limit our own freedoms. We do exactly what the terrorists want us to do if we start to turn against each other including those who supposedly look like terrorists.

It's exactly at the times when America faces a challenge like it does now that Americans must be most diligent about guarding their liberties against encroachment.

Mike

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Author: lxj Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52713 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 6:29 PM
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I'm beginning to think the Taliban are in Costa Rica. What should we do about it guys?

I'm thinking about taking a trip to Costa Rica with my SUV, my cell phone, and my makeup.

Lynn

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Author: mrhowell Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52714 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 6:31 PM
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If we had had the leads and the clues concerning T McViegh, we could have stopped him too. And until we found him the Police would have stopped and questioned anyone fitting his discription.

NOW we KNOW the general description and certain other habits of a group of people who have professed a willingness and desire to murder an unlimited number of Americans.

Dont call proper and prudent and understandable and necessary reaction "overreaction"

We are not turning against each other if we stop and question those who can reasonably be determined to be a possible threat. Those who are the threat and have already murderd 7000 people because we are not "like them" have set the ground rules for who qualifies. The people who get stopped and question should not be upset. They do have an obligation to cooperate.

>>>>>We know what the terrorists look like? What did Timothy McVeigh look like? Like the kid next door.

The only way the terrorists can win in the long run is if we allow the terrorists to create such fear that we overreact and begin to limit our own freedoms. We do exactly what the terrorists want us to do if we start to turn against each other including those who supposedly look like terrorists.

It's exactly at the times when America faces a challenge like it does now that Americans must be most diligent about guarding their liberties against encroachment. <<<<<<

Mike

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52717 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 7:33 PM
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MSHH said, "We know what the terrorists look like? What did Timothy McVeigh look like? Like the kid next door."

A lot of them are named Ahmed...its a good place to start.

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Author: Amphian Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52718 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 7:37 PM
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MSHH said, "We know what the terrorists look like? What did Timothy McVeigh look like? Like the kid next door."

A lot of them are named Ahmed...its a good place to start.

And all of them are male. Maybe we should start there. Rounding up everyone who is Muslim or Middle Eastern or looks Muslim or Middle Eastern makes about as much sense.

Amphian


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Author: MSHH Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52719 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 7:39 PM
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>>If we had had the leads and the clues concerning T McViegh, we could have stopped him too. And until we found him the Police would have stopped and questioned anyone fitting his discription.<<

That's the point, mrhowell. There is no way police would have stopped every white male between the ages of 20 and 30 without reasonable cause. Remember what the first reaction was to the OKC bombing? A widespread assumption it was connected to Middle East terrorists.

I am completely in favor of doing everything possible within the law to detect terrorists. I am happy to put up with extra security measures at airports and elsewhere. I don't think the government is out to get its own citizens.

But if we allow the government to operate outside the law or to pass a lot of laws that curtail our liberties in the fight against terrorism we are in big trouble because then the terrorists will truly have won. I don't want to see that happen.

Roosevelt said the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. America cannot let fear win. America cannot let the terrorists win by dividing us and turning us against each other.

Mike



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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52729 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 9:14 PM
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I said:
>>I just don't like it when incorrect assumptions are used as harassment tools, scapegoaters, or for other corrupt purposes.<<

fleg9bo offered:
I don't either. But we know what the terrorists look like and if we carefully check out people who look like them this is prudence, not harassment, nor is it for a corrupt purpose. If the pilots of the crashed planes had refused to fly with those mideast-looking guys on board, we'd have had lots of accusations of harrassment and discrimination, but we'd still have the WTC. I can see where you're going with this--I agree that Falwell would be happy to put all the gays in concentration camps and Hillary would like to do the same with the right-wing conspiracy, but I don't think that limiting the precaution to this particular set of circumstances will bring us to that point.

This is the slippery slope. To mix a metaphor, once we let the djin out of the bottle, it's very difficult to convince it to go back in. We have presidential emergency powers, martial law, etc. for the temporary suspension of the Constitution, but to create new law that discriminates on the basis of appearance is imho too dangerous. Power is like a double edged sword without a handle. The person who wields it is only slightly safer than the person who doesn't. Handle it carefully, and you can get the job done. Get careless and you take too much damage.

The level of suspicion for people who look Middle-Eastern is high. That's understandable, and hopefully both forgiveable and acceptable. Not letting them on planes is not imho acceptable. In hindsight, it was not our airplane admission policies, but our cockpit security policies. Before the attack, there was a Sony Vaio commercial that showed the pilot coming out of the cockpit to tell a passenger to put his notebook computer away. I haven't seen that commercial lately. Hopefully this means that we now understand that our pilots are not security guards.

Racial profiling is dangerous. It's a broad net that catches innocent people. We should avoid it if we can.

1HF


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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52731 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 10:38 PM
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The only way the terrorists can win in the long run is if we allow the terrorists to create such fear that we overreact and begin to limit our own freedoms.

Yeah. I can just hear it now... Bin Laden and his cronies sitting around a campfire, in a cave, somewhere tonight in Afghanistan....

(Bin Laden rises to feet to expound upon strategy)

"IF we can cause the evil Americans to search bags when boarding planes, IF our actions make it easier for the FBI to gain wire taps, IF our destructive nature causes law enforcement to use profiling to narrow investigative searches...THEN my muslim brethren, THEN we have won at last!!!"

Gimme a break - they want us DEAD, not freedom-limited.

Golfwaymore,
If only it were that simple.



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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52732 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 10:44 PM
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And all of them are male. Maybe we should start there. Rounding up everyone who is Muslim or Middle Eastern or looks Muslim or Middle Eastern makes about as much sense.

Agreed.

But how bout rounding up male, middle eastern, muslim, males, traveling on expired VISA's, with international criminal backgrounds? Makes sense?

Turn your TV on, the media is only too quick to stick a PC "profiling" label on such action.

Golfwaymore



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Author: Amphian Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52734 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:00 PM
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But how bout rounding up male, middle eastern, muslim, males, traveling on expired VISA's, with international criminal backgrounds? Makes sense?

I'm all for rounding up any international criminals (or friends thereof) in the US with expired visas. Shouldn't we be doing this anyway, regardless of gender, religion, or nationality?

My point is that basing a roundup on someone being male, Muslim, and of Middle Eastern descent is frightening and disruptive to law-abiding people. (Imagine trying to explain to your boss why you were locked up for a week when you didn't do anything wrong.) Equally bad, focusing on just one stereotype causes us to overlook the blond, Christian woman who thinks that this would be a good time to promote her political views with a bomb.

Amphian


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52736 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:03 PM
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<<Limits on wiretapping should be determined by the Congress by law, not by the courts that lack the information, judgement or responsibility to protect the country.

Slippery slope.

Similarly, driving away from a bar sounds like reasonable grounds for checking on whether someone has been drinking and driving.

Slippery slope.

And the events of 9/11 make a good case that the idea of racial profiling is a law enforcement tool that should be controlled politically, not legally.

Slippery slope.

Could the Thought Police be far behind?
>>


]
Well, we've been doing it your way for thirty years or so--- it seems we have been on a slippery slope to the 9/11 attack.

Could an attack with nuclear or biological weapons be far behind?





Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52738 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:25 PM
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<<For instance, if one can be given a sobriety test for driving away from a bar, with no evidence of drunken behavior, the assumtion is driving away from a bar equals drinking too much. The cops can be used as tools of a campaign contributor to drive a competitor's bar out of business.

And what if a cop presumed to assume that an adult driving away from a school is a pedophile? Would that become sufficient probable cause for searching a person's home? With over 40,000 laws on the books, the cop could surely find evidence that at least one was being broken. History shows that harassment on flimsy grounds is a tool of authoritarians. They use it to control their "subjects".

>>


Oh, I don't presume to give every cop the power to do what they choose. The police are accountable politically, and that is the appropriate check. Suppose the courts had just decided that racial profiling was unconstitutional, just when it proved to be vitally necessary in screening people applying for pilot training or crop dusting services, for example.

The fact is, cops can be oppressive with any level of authority, unless they are controlled and checked on.


I simply propose that political accountability is superior to the inflexibility and bumbling of the courts in such matters.



<<. The Constitution is the strength of our society. Letting the whims of a majority from 335 senior class presidents and 100 country club members determine what is Constitutional is dangerous. They have the power to change the Constitution. The courts have the power to interpret it. By design, this helps keep elected officials from being too reactive.
>>


Our liberties are in the hands of our neighbors. That is what the constitution intended when it set up a system of representative government. The courts are populated by a lot of senior class presidents, too, don't you think? Politicians have the advantage of having their actions scrutinized closely by the press and public, and their foolish behavior is far more easily repealed when a mistake is identified.


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52739 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:34 PM
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<<--I agree that Falwell would be happy to put all the gays in concentration camps and Hillary would like to do the same with the right-wing conspiracy, but I don't think that limiting the precaution to this particular set of circumstances will bring us to that point.
>>


Actually, I don't think Fallwell would like to put homosexuals in concentration camps, nor would Hillary put her enemies in jail. These are wild exagerations that cheapen the discussion.


More importantly, even if they did hold those views, the voters would not support it. We should not demean the extent to which freedoms and liberties have been legislated into existance. When the lawmaking process is followed, compromise is often the order of the day and a better fit between liberty and regulation is possible than through court decisions.

Furthermore, legislatures are flexible. In times of crisis, they can authorize stringent controls that may be needed to protect the public. In times of peace, such stringent controls have been repoeatedly discarded or repealed. The idea that we need nannies in the courts is insulting and reidiculous, in my opinion.

Hold the politicians accountable, and keep the courts out of politics, that's my motto.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52741 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:42 PM
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<<>> But we know what the terrorists look like and if we carefully check out people who look like them this is prudence, not harassment, nor is it for a corrupt purpose.<<

We know what the terrorists look like? What did Timothy McVeigh look like? Like the kid next door.
>>



Timothy McVeigh looked like someone with a background and association with the Christian militia movement ---at the time it was a precocious precursor to terrorism. Too bad the FBI wasn't infiltrating and observing these groups more closely, don't you think?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52743 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/8/2001 11:54 PM
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<<
It's exactly at the times when America faces a challenge like it does now that Americans must be most diligent about guarding their liberties against encroachment>>


This is a crock.


You know, the Brits elected Neville Chamberlain as Prime Minister when they thought they could maintain the peace with Hitler. When that proved to be mistaken, a coalition was formed and Winston Chruchill was appointed to fight the war. Almost as soon as the war was over, the Brits gave Winston the boot.

We need to be SMART about the extent of our freedoms. Trying to retain liberties that merely give aid and comfort to our enemies is foolishness. And the United States has repeatedly retreated from periods of restricted liberties when the times were right to do so.

I continue to suggest that relying on political means to determine the nature and extent of civil liberties is both the smart and the American thing to do. Relying on the courts is hoplessly clunky ---they lack the judgement and the flexibility to govern such matters wisely.




Seattle Pioneer




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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52749 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 1:04 AM
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At the moment we are NOT as free as we ought to be whether we use racial profiling or not. If a relatively benign form of it could have prevented the WTC disaster is there someone on this board callous enough to say nay?

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52750 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 2:28 AM
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<<
But if we allow the government to operate outside the law or to pass a lot of laws that curtail our liberties in the fight against terrorism we are in big trouble because then the terrorists will truly have won. I don't want to see that happen.

Roosevelt said the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. America cannot let fear win. America cannot let the terrorists win by dividing us and turning us against each other.
>>


Fear is what you express ---fear of your fellow Americans. Personally, I have always felt that my liberties are in the hands of my fellow Americans, and that generally speaking that is the securest place to put them.


Sometimes those liberties may be restricted. At other times, they can be expanded. I see no reason why American liberties should not adapt to changing needs and circumstances.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: cmorford Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52752 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 7:50 AM
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mhtyler said: A lot of them are named Ahmed...its a good place to start.

And so are a lot of innocent dry cleaners, engineers and doctors...

Fear.
That's what has me worried.

Fear makes perfectly rational people do stupidly non-rational things...

So, we start by rounding up all the Ahmeds and Abduls and Ahmads and Mohammeds and Mahmouds...
And then what?

Torture them to get them to tell us about all their secret relationships with other Arabs?

Let's look at this another way...

The kid on the plane yesterday...
What did he look like?
What was his name? John? Mark? Bob?

Because of what happened yesterday should all gringo-looking guys named John be rounded up?

If not, why not? This is what you're proposing to do with Arab-looking Americans...

Chuck




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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52754 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 9:09 AM
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SeattlePioneer said, "Fear is what you express ---fear of your fellow Americans. Personally, I have always felt that my liberties are in the hands of my fellow Americans, and that generally speaking that is the securest place to put them. "

Well said, and damn right.

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52755 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 9:10 AM
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cmorford said, "So, we start by rounding up all the Ahmeds and Abduls and Ahmads and Mohammeds and Mahmouds...
And then what?"

What on Earth are you talking about? Who suggested rounding anyone up?

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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52761 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 10:10 AM
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But how bout rounding up male, middle eastern, muslim, males, traveling on expired VISA's, with international criminal backgrounds? Makes sense?

Shouldn't anybody with an expired visa be detained?

And if we develop an organized program of detaining only those you specify, you can bet that the terrorist networks will find some way of getting around it. Maybe they'll actually even recruit women; maybe boys who are too young to shave and can pass for female. Maybe they can find some blond men who are willing to support their perverted causes.

No, profiling alone won't do it. I'm not even sure that it's a good tool.

phantomdiver


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Author: cmorford Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52762 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 10:11 AM
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I said, "So, we start by rounding up all the Ahmeds and Abduls and Ahmads and Mohammeds and Mahmouds...
And then what?"


Then mhtyler said: What on Earth are you talking about? Who suggested rounding anyone up?

If rounding them up was not what you meant then maybe you could clarify what you DID mean.

Here's the text of the message:
MSHH said, "We know what the terrorists look like? What did Timothy McVeigh look like? Like the kid next door."

A lot of them are named Ahmed...its a good place to start.

So, what did you mean?

Chuck

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52764 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 10:30 AM
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But if we allow the government to operate outside the law or to pass a lot of laws that curtail our liberties in the fight against terrorism we are in big trouble because then the terrorists will truly have won. I don't want to see that happen.

Are you willing to sacrifice a major U.S. city in that cause?

The bomb will be bought in the Former Soviet Union. It will be shipped to the Phillipines by plane. It will be put on a boat (maybe even a small sailboat) and shipped to the Baja Peninsula in Mexico. It will be trucked across the border in the back of a large truck with alot of other stuff labeled "air conditioners." It will be detonated in either San Diego or Los Angeles. It's not a matter of "if" or "maybe"; it's just a matter of "when." Don't kid yourself. The people we are dealing with are not rational or "kind" or "merciful" or "compassionate." They are cold, cruel, calculative, killers. They proved that by hijacking 4 airplanes loaded with passengers and ramming them into buildings and the ground. If you don't think that they are going to get their hands on a nuclear device and eventually detonated it in a U.S. city you are kidding yourself. It's just a matter of time. I'm willing to sacrifice some liberties in order to put that time in as far a distant future as possible. And, by the way, they are just going to keep coming. It's never going to end. The cute little kids we see in the streets now will soon be grown men. - Art


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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52765 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 10:32 AM
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Fear.
That's what has me worried.

Fear makes perfectly rational people do stupidly non-rational things...



Yeah, like detonating a nuclear bomb in downtown Los Angeles after it's been trucked across the border from Mexico. - Art



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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52767 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 11:02 AM
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Suppose the courts had just decided that racial profiling was unconstitutional, just when it proved to be vitally necessary in screening people applying for pilot training or crop dusting services, for example.

If it is vitally necessary, then the President has the power to temporarily suspend that aspect of the Constitution until a threat is overcome (and suffer the political fallout later). But you seem to be arguing that it is okay to permanently treat some people as less equal than others. It's okay to never reach an ideal. It's okay to take a step backwards when responding to a threat. It's not okay to lose sight of the ideal or to stop trying to reach it. Societies that do that end up on the trash heap of history just as quickly as those that adopt Chaos or Order as their model.

Our liberties are in the hands of our neighbors. That is what the constitution intended when it set up a system of representative government. The courts are populated by a lot of senior class presidents, too, don't you think? Politicians have the advantage of having their actions scrutinized closely by the press and public, and their foolish behavior is far more easily repealed when a mistake is identified.

So you basically propose scrapping the Bill of Rights and allowing a simple majority to determine our liberties? If our electorate was not easily led around like children by the pied pipers we elect, that might actually work. The courts have been getting pretty loose with interpretations and helping the federal government gain more power. You want them to pretend that the Framers didn't intend for them to protect the Constitution every time the populace got paranoid and screamed for the all-too-willing politicians to take the quick, easy, cheap and dirty road toward a police state? The Constitution requires supermajorities to overrule high court decisions or modify the document. If a cause is just, then a supermajority is a reasonable constraint to overcome.

1HF


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52769 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 11:12 AM
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<<Fear.
That's what has me worried.

Fear makes perfectly rational people do stupidly non-rational things...
>>


Very true--- and you are a good example of that. Your fear and distrust of your fellow Americans apparently prevents you from considering prudent and rational responses to an attack that killed 6,000 people with explicit threats to do more of the same.


Perhaps it is prudent to give extra scrutiny to airline travelers with middle eatsern passports, for example. That doesn't mean you arrest everyone and beat them with rubber hoses. But if threats come from particular populations, it seems that your fears are allowing you to do stupidly non rational things, such as targeting identifiable groups that pose extra risks for extra scrutiny.


<<Let's look at this another way...

The kid on the plane yesterday...
What did he look like?
What was his name? John? Mark? Bob?

Because of what happened yesterday should all gringo-looking guys named John be rounded up?
>>


You know, when the FBI was breaking up the Ku Klux Klan, I'll bet that gave extra scrutiny to white guys with little education living in southern states. They probably gave little scrutiny to black women living in Washington State. If the FBI had not been free to engage in this kind of racial profiling, their efforts might have been so diffuse that they never would have gotten at the problem.

It's quite true, of course, that such power can be abused. The political system controls the law enforcement system, so the proper thing to do is to hold elected and appointed officials responsible for the actions of their subordinates.




Seattle Pioneer



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Author: cmorford Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52770 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 11:16 AM
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Seattle Pioneer said: You know, when the FBI was breaking up the Ku Klux Klan, I'll bet that gave extra scrutiny to white guys with little education living in southern states.

You think the Klan is broken up?

You obviously don't live in the South...

Stick to Seattle, Pioneer...You obviously don't know the rest of the country as well as you think...

Chuck - Yankee living in the South for most of 25 years...


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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52771 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 11:19 AM
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Well, we've been doing it your way for thirty years or so--- it seems we have been on a slippery slope to the 9/11 attack.

Actually, we've been trying to approach a seemingly impossible ideal for several hundred years now. We're trying to achieve a society that doesn't fail under the weight of enslavement. We've been given a Constitution with two or more probably fatal flaws to help us undo and prevent enslavement. Imho our only hope is to undo those flaws without further damage to the document.

Could an attack with nuclear or biological weapons be far behind?

The price of freedom is high. The price of giving up freedom to prevent suffering is higher.

1HF


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Author: cmorford Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52773 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 11:24 AM
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Art said:Yeah, like detonating a nuclear bomb in downtown Los Angeles after it's been trucked across the border from Mexico.

So, what kept them from doing it before now, Art?

Osama definately has the money.
In theory, Soviet nukes have been on the market for 10 years or so...
Our border policies are tougher now than they have been in the past...

So, what's stopped them before now?
I would think if they were capable of delivering a nuke they would have done it, killing hundreds of thousands or millions instead of thousands?

They rammed the planes into the WTC because that's what they had the capability to do.
They haven't delivered a nuke to NYC because they don't have the capability...

Do you think they're saving their nuke as their "Ace in the Hole"?

Art, calm down...

Chuck



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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52774 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 11:27 AM
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<<And if we develop an organized program of detaining only those you specify, you can bet that the terrorist networks will find some way of getting around it. Maybe they'll actually even recruit women; maybe boys who are too young to shave and can pass for female. Maybe they can find some blond men who are willing to support their perverted causes.
>> v


So you are suggesting that a program of racial profiling might force terrorists to discard their entire cadre of trained personnel and to recruit and train boys who are too young to shave and can pass for female.


Heh, heh! It sounds like you are making a good case for racial profiling.


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52777 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 11:41 AM
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<<So you basically propose scrapping the Bill of Rights and allowing a simple majority to determine our liberties? >>


Ahhh. That is just the problem. A simple majority DOES determine our liberties, 5-4. I prefer that our liberties be regulated through the adoption of laws that involve the checks and balances of passage by the House of Representatives and the Senate and being signed by the President.


<<The courts have been getting pretty loose with interpretations and helping the federal government gain more power. You want them to pretend that the Framers didn't intend for them to protect the Constitution every time the populace got paranoid and screamed for the all-too-willing politicians to take the quick, easy, cheap and dirty road toward a police state? The Constitution requires supermajorities to overrule high court decisions or modify the document. If a cause is just, then a supermajority is a reasonable constraint to overcome.
>>





If the framers of the constitution had intended for the courts to own and control the constitution, you'd think they would have said so, don't you think? Yet nowhere are the courts authorized to declare acts of Congress unconstitutional or to be the sole arbiter of the meaning of the constitution. This has simply been a grab for power by the courts. It is unfortunate that those who CLAIM to be defending the constitution have been the ones who have perverted and corrupted the constitution the worst.


Seattle Pioneer




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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52780 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 11:49 AM
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At the moment we are NOT as free as we ought to be whether we use racial profiling or not. If a relatively benign form of it could have prevented the WTC disaster is there someone on this board callous enough to say nay?

It's that definition of "relatively benign" that is the issue. Keeping Middle-Eastern looking males off aiplanes doesn't meet my definition of relatively benign. Looking more carefully at drivers' licenses, visas or foreign flight school candidates does, but denying flight school admission via racial profiling doesn't. Countless lives have been saved by teaching foreigners how to fly big jets. US English is the international language of air traffic control for a reason; we do flight better. We're second guessing at what we should have been doing. Racial profiling can be used to trigger closer scrutiny. We can observe without violating Constitutional rights. We can have different standards for citizens and non-citizens and racial profiling can be used more freely with non-citizens at our borders and ports. That's about as far as I would go.

1HF


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Author: WonderPup Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52781 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 11:51 AM
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So, what's stopped them before now?
I would think if they were capable of delivering a nuke they would have done it, killing hundreds of thousands or millions instead of thousands?



Specious reasoning. By the same logic, you could said on September 10 that bin Laden didn't have a group of trained pilots capable of hijacking a group of airplanes to use as suicide bombs. After all, if he had them, he would have used them, right?

Terrorist cells act on their own timelines. They might be driving a nuke into downtown Los Angeles as we speak. Or, maybe they're finally collecting the parts and starting to assemble the bomb for use in 6 months. Or maybe they have no bomb at all.

But to argue that it doesn't exist because it hasn't been used is a failure of logic.

I've also heard this logic used regarding biological attacks. In addition to specious logic, this ignores any recognition of tactical situations; meaning, if you have the capability, some targets are better than others.

For example, if I'm a terrorist with a smallpox bioweapon, do I:
(1) Use it the same day as my airplane attacks, on a late summer day (which isn't as conducive to spreading smallpox as winter weather), in a typical US city? Or,
(2) Do I save it for the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics, release it in colder weather where the organism spreads better, and I can infect thousands of people just before they hop on an airplane and go back to 40 different countries worldwide, thus spreading the disease more effectively than an attack on a single US city?

If my goal was to spread the bioweapon with maximum effect, I'd choose the latter. Just because they haven't used the weapon yet doesn't mean that they haven't thought of a more effective tactical plan.

On a side note, I'd sure hate to be in charge of the SLC Olympic security. Odds on the Olympics being cancelled this winter?

--WP










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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52784 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 12:15 PM
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You think the Klan is broken up?

You obviously don't live in the South...


Broken up, no. Rendered utterly useless, ineffective, and driven entirely underground, YES.

Disclaimer: I DO live in the South, and I have known supposed "klansmen".

Golfwaymore



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Author: cmorford Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52785 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 12:18 PM
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WonderPup said:If my goal was to spread the bioweapon with maximum effect, I'd choose the latter. Just because they haven't used the weapon yet doesn't mean that they haven't thought of a more effective tactical plan.

Allow me to question your reasoning a bit...

The Olympic crowd in SLC will be huge, Granted.

The amount of people in Manhattan on any given day is easily 10 times that amount.
BioWeapons are not the greatest for shock value...They take time to spread, and in the case of smallpox there is an effective vaccine (albeit in short supply) and some residual immunity from our previous vaccine program...

Sail Art's sailboat into New York Harbor carrying a nuke. Chances are no one will pay any attention to your little boat...Pull it right up to the marina next to the WTC...Detonate your little atomic present at about 10am, when most of the city is at work...

You'll kill millions, not to mention knocking down all the pretty buildings in a 5 mile radius...Possibly knock the U.S. economy on it's ass for years...

When it takes years to plan and execute an attack, you lead with your best weapons...

Maximum effect, Maximum shock...Maximum horror.

Chuck

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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52786 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 12:18 PM
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Do you think they're saving their nuke as their "Ace in the Hole"?

How do you know that they are not? And do you really want to take that chance?

Feelin' lucky? <grin>

Golfwaymore,
Preferring to err on the safe side



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Author: cmorford Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52789 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 12:25 PM
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GolfWayMore said: How do you know that they are not? And do you really want to take that chance?

I'll admit that I don't. Either of your choices...

But, as I said previously, if it takes a long time to plan and execute your attack, you're going to use your best available weapon, it might be your only chance to use it...

It's like anything else...

You have fast, cheap and good. Choose any 2...

Fast and Good - That's the way WE do things...
Cheap and Good - That's the way THEY do things...

Chuck

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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52792 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 12:53 PM
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I said:
>>So you basically propose scrapping the Bill of Rights and allowing a simple majority to determine our liberties?<<

Seattle Pioneer said:
Ahhh. That is just the problem. A simple majority DOES determine our liberties, 5-4. I prefer that our liberties be regulated through the adoption of laws that involve the checks and balances of passage by the House of Representatives and the Senate and being signed by the President.

Your arguments have imho just passed into the realm of discussion fraud. Our liberties were determined by supermajorities two centuries ago (as you well know) and you are now proposing that they be removed by a simple majority of popularity contest winners with the cooperation of another popularity contest winner.

>>The courts have been getting pretty loose with interpretations and helping the federal government gain more power. You want them to pretend that the Framers didn't intend for them to protect the Constitution every time the populace got paranoid and screamed for the all-too-willing politicians to take the quick, easy, cheap and dirty road toward a police state? The Constitution requires supermajorities to overrule high court decisions or modify the document. If a cause is just, then a supermajority is a reasonable constraint to overcome.<<

If the framers of the constitution had intended for the courts to own and control the constitution, you'd think they would have said so, don't you think? Yet nowhere are the courts authorized to declare acts of Congress unconstitutional or to be the sole arbiter of the meaning of the constitution.

Article. III.
Section. 2.
Clause 1: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State; (See Note 10)--between Citizens of different States, --between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

Clause 2: In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

And of course, a supermajority of Congress has determined how future Congresses can make exceptions and no future congress has changed this:

Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

It seems pretty clear to me that if Congress doesn't like how the law has been applied by the courts, they need only produce a supermajority to change it.

This has simply been a grab for power by the courts. It is unfortunate that those who CLAIM to be defending the constitution have been the ones who have perverted and corrupted the constitution the worst.

Like I said, the document is flawed as are all the people involved with it, but putting it on a roller in the bathroom just about guarantees a guided trip to Chaos or Order. I'll keep the document where I can read it. You can put it where you want.

ARTICLES IN ADDITION TO, AND AMENDMENTS OF, THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PROPOSED BY CONGRESS, AND RATIFIED BY THE LEGISLATURES OF THE SEVERAL STATES, PURSUANT TO THE FIFTH ARTICLE OF THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION (See Note 12)

Article [IV.]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

1HappyFool -- who's had his last word with SP on the topic of whether a supermajority is required to treat some people as less equal than others


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Author: WonderPup Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52795 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 1:27 PM
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Allow me to question your reasoning a bit...


Two points:

* Let's compare bioweapon tactics to bioweapon tactics, not bioweapons to nukes. Different tactics for different situations.

If I had a bioweapon that is communicable, I'd target the Olympics. Why? Infect people near the end, let them go back to their home country and start to spread it. By the time we knew what was going on, there would be a pandemic. Focusing a comminicable bioweapon on a large international community that is about to travel would be much more effective use of that bioweapon than releasing it on a typical day in a typical US city.

My point is that just because they haven't used them, don't think they don't have them and aren't just saving them for what they perceive to be a better target.

As far as nukes go, yeah, you could sail one into a harbor and detonate it. In fact, I've said in the past that one of the more traditional attacks I could see coming would be for terrorists to strike an oil tanker sitting in a US port. Even if it is just an oil spill, it would be highly disruptive. If it were a flaming oil spill, disruptive and damaging, possibly deadly.

So, I don't argue at all with your choice of tactic, given that the weapon is nuclear versus biological. Just don't mix the two. Choice of weapon determines choice of tactics. In other words, if I have a biological weapon, it doesn't mean I can launch a nuclear attack. I need a nuclear weapon to do that.

* Second, don't assume that just because the terrorists may not have a biological or nuclear weapon now doesn't mean they won't still get one. Suppose there might be a Taliban sympathizer with access to Pakistan's nukes that is a little more upset at the US today than a month ago? Suppose the going black market price for biological agents just got quadrupled, and finally convincing that Russian scientist to make the sale? Suppose there was a deal in progress anyway that is still being worked on?

Summary on all this:
* Just because they haven't used them doesn't mean they don't have them.
* Just because they don't have them today doesn't mean they won't tomorrow.

--WP

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Author: Donuttopia Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52797 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 1:43 PM
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Summary on all this:
* Just because they haven't used them doesn't mean they don't have them.
* Just because they don't have them today doesn't mean they won't tomorrow.


And the reality is that nothing that has been proposed on this thread changes any of that.



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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52808 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 2:48 PM
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<<It's that definition of "relatively benign" that is the issue. Keeping Middle-Eastern looking males off aiplanes doesn't meet my definition of relatively benign. Looking more carefully at drivers' licenses, visas or foreign flight school candidates does, but denying flight school admission via racial profiling doesn't. Countless lives have been saved by teaching foreigners how to fly big jets. US English is the international language of air traffic control for a reason; we do flight better. We're second guessing at what we should have been doing. Racial profiling can be used to trigger closer scrutiny. We can observe without violating Constitutional rights. We can have different standards for citizens and non-citizens and racial profiling can be used more freely with non-citizens at our borders and ports. That's about as far as I would go.
>>


That sounds reasonable ---today. Probably a month ago you wouldn't have supported that much in additional scrutiny. If a major anthrax epidemic breaks out that's caused by terrorists, perhaps you would support yet more scrutiny.

That's why I suggest that our liberties should be determined by political means, not legal ones. If the courts had decided that any kind of racial profiling was illegal, and then it turns out it's needed, they lack the flexibility to easily go back and reinterpret the constitution to update it to current needs every month or so ---and if they do so, they are acting politically anyway.



Seattle Pioneer



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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52817 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 3:45 PM
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1HappyFool said, "It's that definition of "relatively benign" that is the issue. "

I agree, and the person who suggested that racial profiling means rounding up everyone is jumping the gun.

Japanese internment was a crime we shouldn't repeat, but if we know that 99% of the terrorists are... say Saudi, then the FBI should be discreetly chatting with them.

I think we can restrict profiling to foreign nationals for the foreseeable future, although there are a few doors in Montana that need to be knocked on too.

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Author: mhtyler Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52819 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 3:53 PM
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cmorford asked, "So, what did you mean?" vis a vis racial profiling:

What I meant is that we have a clear thumbprint of 99% of the terrorists:

They are foreign and usually Muslim from the Middle East.

The INS can track, and with the assistance of the FBI we should be carefully interviewing who we let into the US, why, for how long, and make sure they don't have contact with known terrorists.

I think a very effective campaign of profiling could be done with absolutely NO infringement of our constitutional rights because it could be restricted to foreigners.

Mind you, as I said in another message, we probably should give Montana the once over.

At the end of the day, we need to avoid extremes like the disgraceful internment of Japanese Americans, but profiling in this instance is entirely reasonable as long as it is kept within bounds. The boundries are the issue for sure.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52820 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 3:55 PM
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AP) - "Federal officials suspect foul play rather than an environmental source is at the root of two Florida anthrax cases that have left one man dead". . . "Stevens lived about a mile from an air strip where flight school owner Marian Smith said suspected hijacker Mohamed Atta rented planes. Several suspected hijackers also visited a crop-dusting business in Belle Glade, 40 miles from Stevens' home in Lantana."

And your telling me to calm down? I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We are not dealing with people who have the same values as we do. If you don't think for a minute that Osama Bin Laden and his Al Queda network would not hesitate to take out an entire city if they feel substantially threatened? They are counting on our Christian values and morals not to do anything really rash. We need to send the message to them that if they do use a nuclear device here in the United States that we are going to vaporize a lot of Islamic cities. That is what they will understand FORCE! It is something they can relate to. - Art



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Author: cmorford Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52824 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 4:34 PM
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Art said: And your telling me to calm down? I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. We are not dealing with people who have the same values as we do.

Yes, Art, calm down...I'm not telling you, I'm asking you...You're going to blow an artery...

I understand the situation quite well.

I have spent some time in the Middle East, I know quite well who we're dealing with.
And,I've have had some training in chemical and biological warfare, so I'm familiar with those also.

And as for counting on our Christian values and Morals...Well, lets just say not everyone in the U.S. or even everyone on this message board is Christian...
And I don't particularly trust a lot of those who claim to be, to use their values and morals the way I'd like them to...

Chuck





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Author: ChocoKitty Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52826 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 4:39 PM
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Heck, if the anthrax doesn't kill us, the heart attacks and bursted blood vessels from stressing out about it will.

CK
(staying calm and trying to live well, since we're all going to die someday anyway)

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Author: mrhowell Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52843 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 6:58 PM
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I'm not really sure what you're saying here. They would not have stopped every 20-30 yr old male if that was the only description they had. The numbers are prohibitive. Obviously they would have had to narrow it down and in a country like ours that would have meant quite a bit of narrowing.

BUT.... since we already know generally what the enemy looks like and the numbers are not prohibitive and we already know it could be any one of them we do not need any further refining of details although it would be great if we had a more detailed description beforehand of ONLY THOSE who will perpetrate these acts. We have to "go for it" It cannot be said that racial profiling is inherently bad but any other kind of profiling is acceptable. If that's all we have to go on then that's what we go on ESPECIALLY when the stakes are as high as they are now, which really is the only thing guiding the process. The marging for error is very very thin. We ain't talking about finding a bank robber or car thief. They want to KILL an unlimited number of people not "like them" including you.

If the description of the suspects is Arabic male/Islamic member and it is not a waste of resources to check-out every single one of them then we are obligated to check out every one of them. It's not racial profiling. It's looking where we NEED to look. And they do have an obligation to cooperate and they have no reason to be upset at anyone other than those who look like them and worship as they do becasue THAT's who is responsible for their inconvenience


_______________________
>>If we had had the leads and the clues concerning T McViegh, we could have stopped him too. And until we found him the Police would have stopped and questioned anyone fitting his discription.<<

That's the point, mrhowell. There is no way police would have stopped every white male between the ages of 20 and 30 without reasonable cause. Remember what the first reaction was to the OKC bombing? A widespread assumption it was connected to Middle East terrorists

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Author: gurdison Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52847 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 7:17 PM
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<their problem is NOT with US. Is NOT with America. Is NOT with the police. Their problem is with people who look like them and worship as they do. That is where their anger should be directed. They have every OBLIGATION to cooperate.>


I think you cut through a lot of the "noise" and have gotten to the heart of the matter. I have listened very carefully to many say how they deplore what happened. What my ears keep missing is the lack of a clear statement from the governments in the mideast or the Muslim heirarchy itself that this element of people must be eliminated from their ranks.

If you were a member of the Elks and a few people of your group were commiting horrendous crimes in the name of the Elks, you would most likely want to purge those people from the group. It would not be enough to merely say that these people do not represent all Elks. After awhile, you would be concerned with the wide brush tainting you too. You would also not be comfortable with being pulled over for being seen coming out of an Elk's Lodge. Your message that almost all Elks are good people would probably fall on deaf ears until those bad people were eliminated from your ranks.

The mideast is a very difficult place with many factions. The average person in many of these countries has a tough life. At the same time, many of the governments are indifferent to the plight of their people. Unfortunately, some of our better "friends" fall into this catagory. This has happened in other parts of the world too. There are no simple solutions to these problems. Having a presence there makes us an easy target for contempt. Someone like Bin Laden has been able to tap into that anger. When some of those whose lives are miserable see their corrupt and authoritarian government supported and armed by us, it reinforces part of Bin Ladens message.

As a country, we Americans are often ignorant of much of the rest of the world. Prior to the recent incident, I would suspect that maybe only one in 10 would have been able to identify Afghanistan on a world map. Probably fewer would have any idea what the average persons life is like in any of these countries. Being the world's leader in commerce, freedom and opportunity carries a big price tag. We sometimes forget that. I forget who said it first but it still rings tru today: "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance".


BRG

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Author: cosmos284 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52851 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 7:33 PM
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If you were a member of the Elks and a few people of your group were commiting horrendous crimes in the name of the Elks, you would most likely want to purge those people from the group. It would not be enough to merely say that these people do not represent all Elks. After awhile, you would be concerned with the wide brush tainting you too. You would also not be comfortable with being pulled over for being seen coming out of an Elk's Lodge. Your message that almost all Elks are good people would probably fall on deaf ears until those bad people were eliminated from your ranks.


IMHO, too many Muslim leaders, both here in the U.S. and in the Arab world, have been silent on this issue.

From everything I've read, these terrorist groups are an extreme faction and a very small percentage of the total Muslims.

Where's the outrage? I think Muslim leaders speaking out against terrorism would be very effective in eliminating terrorism.

Cosmos

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52862 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/9/2001 9:38 PM
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Yes, Art, calm down...I'm not telling you, I'm asking you...You're going to blow an artery...

I understand the situation quite well.

I have spent some time in the Middle East, I know quite well who we're dealing with.
And,I've have had some training in chemical and biological warfare, so I'm familiar with those also.

And as for counting on our Christian values and Morals...Well, lets just say not everyone in the U.S. or even everyone on this message board is Christian...
And I don't particularly trust a lot of those who claim to be, to use their values and morals the way I'd like them to...

Chuck


In actuality I am calm. I'm always calm. And, what Christianity has to do with it is the subtle influence it has on our culture and our way of thinking. Our culture affects subconsciously and has subtle influences on our value system. It permeates our laws, our media, our schools, TV, and teachers. Whether we know it or not we are influenced by centuries of culture, just as Arabic culture is, and that affects the way we think and what we believe. We don't have to even go to church or have ever attended a sunday school for Christianity to be a part of our lives. Our values have been passed down to us by the many people in our past who have been Christians, going back even to the Pilgrims and Puritans. Christian principles of kindess, mercy, compassion are inherent in the way Americans view human life. - Art





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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52872 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/10/2001 1:16 AM
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<<Japanese internment was a crime we shouldn't repeat, but if we know that 99% of the terrorists are... say Saudi, then the FBI should be discreetly chatting with them.
>>


Japanese internment was a mistake that Roosevelt was accountable for. In the context of the whole war, he was a remarkably fine war President despite that mistake. I believe that pretty much all the Japanese were released from internment by the end of 1944.

Keep in mind that millions of other Americans were deprived of their liberty, but were sent to the front to fight and die, not to a safe internment camp. When the sacrifices of combat veterans is compared to the sacrifices of Japanese internees, the Japanese internment is placed in its proper perspective.


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52873 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/10/2001 1:36 AM
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<<. Remember what the first reaction was to the OKC bombing? A widespread assumption it was connected to Middle East terrorists >>



Not an unreasonable first assumption, and one that was quickly discarded when better information came along.


You know, SCIENCE begins with a hupothesis, and then tests that guess against the facts. If the facts don't support that initial hypothesis, it is discarded in favor of another theory until one is found that conforms to the facts.


I would say that Americans reacted to the Oklahoma bombing in a pretty scientific manner.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: barleyhops Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52897 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/10/2001 1:12 PM
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Keep in mind that millions of other Americans were deprived of their liberty, but were sent to the front to fight and die, not to a safe internment camp. When the sacrifices of combat veterans is compared to the sacrifices of Japanese internees, the Japanese internment is placed in its proper perspective.


SP, this has to be one of the dumbest rationalizations I have EVER heard. You really have a knack for trivializing other people's suffering.

If you think that the internment merely deprived people of their liberties you're fooling yourself. People's entire lives were stolen, including homes and property. Take a look at some pictures of these "safe" internment camps. They were oppressive prison camps in which the prisoners were enslaved and beaten. Upwards of 120,000 people were prisoned, with more than 2/3rd of them being American citizens.

Also, have you ever heard of the 100th Battalion and the 442nd Regimental combat team? They were formed from volunteers from these "safe" camps and were one of the most decorated units of it's size during WWII.

Try checking out this website:

http://alterasian.com/internment



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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52902 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/10/2001 2:03 PM
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<<Keep in mind that millions of other Americans were deprived of their liberty, but were sent to the front to fight and die, not to a safe internment camp. When the sacrifices of combat veterans is compared to the sacrifices of Japanese internees, the Japanese internment is placed in its proper perspective.


SP, this has to be one of the dumbest rationalizations I have EVER heard. You really have a knack for trivializing other people's suffering.

If you think that the internment merely deprived people of their liberties you're fooling yourself. People's entire lives were stolen, including homes and property. Take a look at some pictures of these "safe" internment camps. They were oppressive prison camps in which the prisoners were enslaved and beaten. Upwards of 120,000 people were prisoned, with more than 2/3rd of them being American citizens.
>>


People's "entire" lives weren't stolen, and neither was their property. Japanese were pretty much all released by late 1945, I believe.


I might add that my father ran a business from 1936 until 1942, when he liquidated the business to enter the navy, probably as an alternative to being drafted. He was involved in the invaision of Tarawa, a much grimmer business that confinement in an internment camp.


So I suggest you consider the objective loss of liberty and safety between combat veterans and those confined to internment camps. Both suffered a loss of freedom and liberty. Combat veterans rather often lost their lives or were badly wounded or scarred psychologically by their experiences.


It is not my intention to trivialize the loss of freedom imposed upon the Japanese, but to put it in perspective.


<<Also, have you ever heard of the 100th Battalion and the 442nd Regimental combat team? They were formed from volunteers from these "safe" camps and were one of the most decorated units of it's size during WWII.
>>


Actually, I've had occasion to shake the hand of a Japanese veteran of one of these combat outfits and to thank him for his contributions.


And I once stopped at the remains of the Manzanaar internment camp in California to contemplate the consequences of government power and decision making responsibility.




Seattle Pioneer



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Author: barleyhops Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52909 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/10/2001 3:36 PM
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I might add that my father ran a business from 1936 until 1942, when he liquidated the business to enter the navy, probably as an alternative to being drafted. He was involved in the invaision of Tarawa, a much grimmer business that confinement in an internment camp.


So I suggest you consider the objective loss of liberty and safety between combat veterans and those confined to internment camps. Both suffered a loss of freedom and liberty. Combat veterans rather often lost their lives or were badly wounded or scarred psychologically by their experiences.


I'm not arguing whether or not being in a battle is more guesome than being inprisoned or if the effects of war were worse on one or the other. I'll even agree that there was a tremendous loss of liberty and safety for combat veterans.

Fundamentally, however, as citizens those combat veterans had a choice to either join the military and fight or not. Your father made a choice to liquidate his business and join the navy (and I respect that very much). Japanese Americans, as citizens, did not have the same choice. The government liquidated their businesses and they were locked up.

I recall that during the Vietnam War you made a choice to not fight and used the draft rules to avoid going. I have no problem with that, but at least you had a choice and were given your rights as an American citizen.

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Author: SirTas Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52921 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/10/2001 8:32 PM
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Keep in mind that millions of other Americans were deprived of their liberty, but were sent to the front to fight and die, not to a safe internment camp.

Some Japanese Americans went to the front too.

As for the camps being safe, I read an interesting account by a woman who was held in a camp with her young child. Of course, the woman herself was smart enough to stay "safely" within the confines of the barb wire, but when her youngster wandered in play she was concerned about the machine gun in the guard tower. If the child wandered or ran off in the wrong direction, would the gunner shoot? She believed so. She thought: otherwise, what's the gun for?

Safe? The people at the front were armed. The people confined in the camps weren't.

--SirTas

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Author: retirecom Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 52994 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/11/2001 1:12 PM
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As a country, we Americans are often ignorant of much of the rest of the world. Prior to the recent incident, I would suspect that maybe only one in 10 would have been able to identify Afghanistan on a world map. Probably fewer would have any idea what the average persons life is like in any of these countries. Being the world's leader in commerce, freedom and opportunity carries a big price tag. We sometimes forget that. I forget who said it first but it still rings tru today: "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance".


I agree. I wouldn't have been able to pick out Afganistan on a map before 9-11.

Along those same lines, I also suspect we don't know a lot of what our country does when negotiating worldwide.


http://fireboards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15905406

This post was in response to a question on whether Iraqi children were really starving, but my point is we preach freedom and liberty, but our government projects to the rest of the world it only applies in cases that are beneficial to *us*, regardless of the cost to other innocent people.

The acts of 9-11 were horrific. But so aren't some of the things we have done elsewhere. We just don't see that on our soil, so we quickly forget (if we ever had the knowledge of the events or policy in the first place).



RC






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Author: reader99 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53022 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/11/2001 6:33 PM
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<<<and those boys would be singing a different tune. >>>>>>>

And in a different register as well!

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Author: reader99 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53038 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/11/2001 7:32 PM
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Arriving at the airport three hours before your flight to be humiliated by being frisked and asked for id three times?
What civil liberties?



At risk of violating my own rules for polite discourse, I have to say bluntly that this is stupid.

Civil liberites are infringed when you are not ALLOWED to travel.
Civil liberites are infringed when you must jump through bureaucratic hoops and have a friend on the inside to be granted PERMISSION or license to move from one part of your own county to another.

Security procedures designed to prevent hijacking may be inconvenient and in the case of frisking a bit embarrassing, but hey, you're still going where ever you want to whenever you want to for any reason or no reason at all.





Reader99
Free to roam, free to stay home

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Author: bluesun68 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53065 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/12/2001 12:54 AM
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"It seems to be that we have three possible responses to attacks on the United States:


1) Give in and do what the attackers want
"

Except for all American's, non-arab's and non muslims dropping dead, what exactly do they want us to do?


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Author: CindyC72 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53086 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/12/2001 9:37 AM
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Arriving at the airport three hours before your flight to be humiliated by being frisked and asked for id three times?
What civil liberties?


Jeez, look for the upside - you can always take the frisking as a cheap thrill...

civil liberties <> everything done at your convienience and on your timeline

Cindy
has had the underwire bra set off the metal detectors before, and would gladly flash security in the name of safety...

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Author: whd23 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53091 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/12/2001 9:50 AM
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civil liberties <> everything done at your convienience and on your timeline

And for those who never experienced the joys of BASIC programming, "<>" means NOT EQUAL. If Cindy were a 'C' programmer, it would have been " != " :)



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Author: retirecom Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53093 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/12/2001 10:06 AM
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Cindy
has had the underwire bra set off the metal detectors before, and would gladly flash security in the name of safety...



Safety? This coming from the woman who removes her bra at 80mph?...


RC


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Author: CindyC72 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53097 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/12/2001 10:22 AM
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Cindy
has had the underwire bra set off the metal detectors before, and would gladly flash security in the name of safety...

Safety? This coming from the woman who removes her bra at 80mph?...

RC


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - people on this board think I am semi-repsonsible and moderately normal...

Cindy

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53120 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/12/2001 12:01 PM
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Cindy
has had the underwire bra set off the metal detectors before, and would gladly flash security in the name of safety...



Why am I never around when this kind of stuff happens? - Art

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Author: sjmins One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53158 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/12/2001 8:15 PM
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NY Post Headline:

"KABULSEYE!!!"

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Author: dakotatycoon Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53563 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/18/2001 5:13 PM
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bookgrrl



NO




Ty

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Author: bookgrrrl Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Winner! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 53567 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 10/18/2001 5:22 PM
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Quiet you.

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Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98073 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/24/2003 2:43 PM
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Oh bookgrrrl....
I was so with you on this whole post until this part:

And if I have to have some of those privileges taken away in order to ensure that other Americans - as well as citizens of other countries who want desperately to become Americans - can live in safety, then I say: bring it on. I owe this country that much, don't you think?

I only just stumbled across this thread today, and I see you got a lot of support over this post. That worried me enough to act on "my" civil liberties and respond. (Even though it will probably get lost in the clutter...)

I am not one of those radical feminist, tree-hugging, Birkinstock-wearing, candle-vigil-holding, demonstration-going women who believes in animal rights (GASP!), environmentalism (SHUDDER!), and the power of psychotherapy to change lives (UNCOMFORTABLE SILENCE)... I am a guy that limits his use of environmental chemicals, takes care of his two animals, and helps people when he gets a chance.

And, as a middle of the road type, I was still impressed with all of your post until I reached the end. Those last two sentences shocked me and invalidated all that you posted before that. How can you tout all the benefits of living in this country, and then finish by saying that you are willing to give "some" of them up?

Which "some" of the privileges are you willing to give up? How many is "some"? How do you ever plan to get them back? How do you know that the "some" you choose are the same "some" that another person would give up?

The other thing is that you have already given up "some" of your liberties and I'm sure that most people do not even know it. Do you know that the FBI can now "request" all of your library records...without a search warrant? Do you know that Homeland security has now set up programs to track certain web searches? Do you know that the FBI is now eliminating the sunset date on how long they can keep information about a person?

You make mention of being able to go to bed at night without fear that someone will come knocking on your door, or that they might ask about your friends. Have you heard about the program to set up a hotline for people to call if they see "suspicious" activity? Uhhmm....That is for your neighbors to call because they saw you carrying large brown paper packages into your house one night and out again another night...even though you were just helping with costume alterations for a high school play...
Think about it. That call has now just put you on a "watch list". You are now being watched while you peacefully go to sleep at night. How much longer before they do start knocking on your door? Why do you think they want the information if it wasn't so they could figure out a way to come knocking.

I see way too many similarities between today's events and those of McCarthyism. Because I am too young to have been there personally, I thought of it as a historical curiosity until I hear an interview on NPR with a gentleman in his sixties (or something). When he said he was seeing parallels and that he was worried, I decided I wasn't just being paranoid...

So, for all of those Fools that recc'd your post, I implore you to make sure that you do not fall into the "hope" that the US Government (caps. intended) is on your side. They are on their own side. It is totally up to us...the masses...to make sure that they are aware that WE are watching THEM. WE need to make sure that they know we will not sit around and LET them make decisions. THEY "work" for us. I do not like paying taxes so that someone who makes close to $200k/yr can make decisions as critical as what to name my FRENCH TOAST. I can pay a fourth grader to make that decision!!!

<breathe...breathe...breathe...>

Anyway, it does scare me that you would be willing to give up privileges that so many other military men and women have fought and died for, because I am not willing to give them up. History is rife with nations that started giving up bits of their liberty and became dictatorial.

Buffy (who already knows he is on some watch list somewhere for posts just like this....)

ps. who.. me...paranoid...no way.





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Author: nukenick Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98093 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/24/2003 3:55 PM
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<<<<<The other thing is that you have already given up "some" of your liberties and I'm sure that most people do not even know it. Do you know that the FBI can now "request" all of your library records...without a search warrant? Do you know that Homeland security has now set up programs to track certain web searches? Do you know that the FBI is now eliminating the sunset date on how long they can keep information about a person?

You make mention of being able to go to bed at night without fear that someone will come knocking on your door, or that they might ask about your friends. Have you heard about the program to set up a hotline for people to call if they see "suspicious" activity? Uhhmm....That is for your neighbors to call because they saw you carrying large brown paper packages into your house one night and out again another night...even though you were just helping with costume alterations for a high school play...
>>>>>>>


SOOO you would rather have a bunch of people running around making wierd internet searches at their public libary to find out how to make bombs for their high school play.

We are guarenteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. only country where it is your right to go after what make you happy. watching my back doesn't make me happy. Take a walk in downtown Oakland at night and see if that is comfortable for ya and imaging doing that everyday no matter waht time it is.

I thank the government for looking out for us. Knowing their is someone out there watching us I think makes people that are screwed up enough to bomb a subway think again. This helps me with my pursuit of happiness not thinking about terrorists all the time and if I am going to take my last breath every step I take. These rights (above) are allowing us to have other rights. Does anybody stop you from looking at a Taliban web page, or a site about chemical weapons? No. Could you?
Sure. Should someone (in a perfect world)come smack you on the head with a wrench if you are actually looking at that stuff? Yes.

If you find yourself wondering about who is watching you then you need to put down the negative utopia books for a little while, go outside and walk around your neighborhood. You'll probably see a melting pot of several different cultures that are living togother chasing down their dreams and happiness. Name one other country like that in the world. Ya really can't...certain cities throught the world maybe, but a country, no.

So go pursue your happiness. If in happens to be posting things on the internet about the "big brother is watching angle" and making people think, then hey man more power to you. But if you don't appriecate the fact that our government does just what the word says and governs it citizens then I encourage you to move. To Cuba, Iraq or Rawanda, and really find out what the "big brother" angle really is all about.

nick
bleeds red, white, and blue

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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98108 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/24/2003 5:05 PM
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But if you don't appriecate the fact that our government does just what the word says and governs it citizens then I encourage you to move. To Cuba, Iraq or Rawanda,

Bingo!

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Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98110 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/24/2003 5:26 PM
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<apologies to all the RE's for barging in univited and talking non retirement stuff....I promise not to rivive any other OT threads...>

Hey nick,
You know I'm not about to move from other conversations we've had. But I do ask you this one question....

Where is the line between those things that the government does to "protect" you and the things that your other examples do? What is the definitive..."Ok, This is over the line!" loss of freedom that you will not stand for?

To me, this is a very difficult and very blurry line. We cannot sit on our laurels and say, "'Cause it's the US, it's gotta be good". I will question every loss of liberty for the very reason that I do not want it to be easy for the government to take away my freedoms.

You mentioned that I should take a walk in Oakland at night. I would even suggest certain areas of Charlotte, or Cleveland, or even Kansas City (all places I've lived) that could probably match it.
But, I challange you to think of it this way. I do not walk (or live) in those places because America, as it is today, allows me to make that decision.
Imagine for a moment, we start requiring national id system (this is being discussed). Then states or cities start implementing a policy that people have to stay where their id's are from. Then people are trapped in that area (Oakland, downtown Charlotte, Troost area of KC). This all happend for real in Berlin. What happend to those people who wanted out? They were shot at the wall, or on the barb wire.
I do not have to worry about living in those areas because I do have the freedom to choose. My mother and father served for that freedom. You are serving for that freedom. And I will fight every loss of that freedom.

Also, you point out that anyone looking at a chemical weapons site should be smacked with a wrench. I will take it at that, as an absolute. How would we ever teach anyone the horrors of these weapons if no-one can research them to see what happened. How would we know whether a new discovery is actually a deadly weapon without some reference from other experiences?
I know this line of thought can be twisted all out of context and many arguments can be made for either side, but I use my examples to point out that unilateral decisions based on judgement calls are very dagerous.

All of this discussion is what makes "this" America great, and scary. I am not proposing anarchy. But, you cannot have freedom, with out the resultant responsibility. We are all responsible for Oakland and Troost in KC. Why, 'cause we have the freedom to do something about it. That is what is scary. Because we have freedom, others are free to join gangs, others are free to waste thier lives on drugs. And, I am free to work with big brothers big sisters and show kids how to live a different life and not "choose" drugs and violence. I would much rather live with these responsibilites than decide I want to give up my ability to make my own decisions and let the government do that for me.

Buffy (who loves his country, but doesn't have to love it's govenment all the time...)

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Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98111 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/24/2003 5:27 PM
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But if you don't appriecate the fact that our government does just what the word says and governs it citizens then I encourage you to move. To Cuba, Iraq or Rawanda,

Bingo!


This is a defeatist attitude. My response would be if you don't like it, run for office! (...or at least vote!)

Buffy (who would never want that responsibility anyway....)

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Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98119 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/24/2003 6:29 PM
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Buffy said:
You mentioned that I should take a walk in Oakland at night. I would even suggest certain areas of Charlotte, or Cleveland, or even Kansas City (all places I've lived) that could probably match it.
But, I challange you to think of it this way. I do not walk (or live) in those places because America, as it is today, allows me to make that decision.
Imagine for a moment, we start requiring national id system (this is being discussed). Then states or cities start implementing a policy that people have to stay where their id's are from. Then people are trapped in that area (Oakland, downtown Charlotte, Troost area of KC). This all happend for real in Berlin. What happend to those people who wanted out? They were shot at the wall, or on the barb wire.
I do not have to worry about living in those areas because I do have the freedom to choose. My mother and father served for that freedom. You are serving for that freedom. And I will fight every loss of that freedom.


Buffy, a national id system is being implemented. They are using your social security number.

Try getting a driver's license without giving them your SS#.

Or a passport. (I was amused by the line on the current form saying that a SS# is not required to get a passport, but the IRS will impose big fines if you don't provide it.)

My married name and professional name don't match, so the IRS suddenly (after 20 years) declared me a non-person. (They took my taxes just fine before.)

We might just as well tatoo the numbers on our wrists.

Vickifool

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Author: CatherineCoy Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98131 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/24/2003 8:10 PM
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We might just as well tatoo the numbers on our wrists.

You're so right, Vickifool. The whole Social Security number as a national ID has gotten completely out of hand. The FICO scoring system has gotten out of hand. The CLUES (claims you make on your homeowners insurance) system has gotten out of hand. Identity theft is pandemic. I predict we WILL have it tattooed as a SKU bar and when that happens, The End will be near. :-)





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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98266 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/25/2003 12:33 PM
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"I encourage you to move. To Cuba,"

Actually I have this theory that Cuba would be an excellent place to retire to. It's close to Florida, has plenty of sunshine, tropical fruit, great music, beautiful women, fishing and snorkeling, and black beans and yellow rice! I've also heard that Cuba has an ample supply of trained medical personnel who would be great at taking care of the aches and pains of ailing elderly Gringoes. I'm sure that it wouldn't be too difficult to build inexpensive pretty little retirement communities near the beach in Cuba, which would help bring in gringo dollars to help support economic development in Cuba. All the ban on trade with Cuba does is hurt the poor people of Cuba and doesn't affect Fidel Castro or his hencemen one bit. I guarantee you they eat whatever they want, watch big color TV's, and drive Mercedes. It punishes the wrong people. It's utterly stupid and short sighted in my opinion. It's time to life the trade embargo with Cuba and allow Americans to visit Cuba. The influx of Americans would come closer to bringing democracy and capitalism to the Island than an embargo ever would. - Art





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Author: nukenick Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98289 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/25/2003 2:37 PM
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dlbuffy,
you and I are basically arguing on how to get to the same place.
We both have similar ideas on what we would like our country. To me we just don't see eye to eye on the execution of the task of protecting our freedoms. I like the "watchdog" approach and you like education and informed choices. I think that for the most part education about current affairs and lessons learned from history are out there. It is up to the individual to seek them out, not everybody does though. I know even though I read tons of things everyday I dunno if it is the "right stuff" or am i reading what somebody wants me to read. Getting off subject...sorry.

I think that we are both patroits, as far as I am concerned, and that this (our conversation) is what keeps America the safest country in the world. The ability and freedom that we have to openly critize, express and take in our and other people's points of view to draw our own conclusions on how we think things in this country should be run.
that is why the United States will never fall and will continue to be a better place.

later brother
nick

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Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98304 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/25/2003 5:34 PM
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Ditto nick...

That gave me goosebumps. I would add also that it is the very extremes that keep us in the middle of the road. As long as we let ourselves hear the other side.

Now, about that idea of setting up a retirement community on the beaches of Cuba. Can we subsidise all margatitas and cervesaz that are drunk on the beach....??

Buffy (who had to ask a guy from Mexico to spell that...)

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Author: Euro02 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98305 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/25/2003 5:39 PM
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Can we subsidise all margatitas and cervesaz that are drunk on the beach....??

Buffy (who had to ask a guy from Mexico to spell that...)


Hmmmm. Guess you should have found one who can spell.

Mike €€



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Author: prometheuss Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 98306 of 756518
Subject: Re: OT: Taliban getting bombed Date: 3/25/2003 5:42 PM
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