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Author: karensie Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 212003  
Subject: OT-Tesla Date: 4/3/2013 11:34 AM
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I know several on the board are following the introduction of the electric automobile because of its potential in the "green" revolution and Berkshire's investment in BYD. My own bias is that battery technology has not advanced sufficiently to make "total electric" a practical solution and therefor "hybrid" seems a reasonable choice for now.

Yesterday TSLA advanced significantly after a financing agreement was announced with USB and WFC. Today it has declined, apparently after a reevaluation of that agreement.

"Tesla Drops as Analysts Question Financing Offer"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-02/tesla-to-begin-mode...

Tim
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Author: mungofitch Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 200692 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/3/2013 12:07 PM
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Yesterday TSLA advanced significantly after a financing agreement was announced with USB and WFC.

I believe the big pop recently was more likely due to the fact that they made their first quarterly profit ever.
The financing news doesn't appear to have had much effect on the stock price that I can see.

Wondering about their future?
At some point it's reasonable to suppose that, as a car maker, they will
make a margin which is somewhat typical of carmakers.
Price/sales of a few manufacturers:
Daimler 0.39x
Ford 0.40x
GM 0.29x
Honda 0.63x
Nissan 0.34x
Tata 0.45x
Toyota 0.61x
Tesla 10.56x
So, back of the envelope, they'll have to increase revenues by maybe 20-25x to justify the current price.
It could happen, certainly. But I sure wouldn't bet on it.

Jim

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Author: JeanDavid Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 200694 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/3/2013 12:10 PM
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But I sure wouldn't bet on it.

I might bet on it. If the commission were not so high, I might buy one share for the fun of it.

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Author: DavidAnglin Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 200699 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/3/2013 4:19 PM
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FWIW: I bought more this week.

The more important business model aspect of the recent lease announcement is that Elon Musk will PERSONALLY guarantee that any lease holder may at the end of 3 years return his or her Tesla to the company and be bought out of their lease at a price that is no lower than the relative depreciation of the same year Mercedes S class. Should TESLA fail to have the cash to fulfill this promise, billionaire Musk will do so out of his own personal funds. So if you lease this thing and then at the end of the lease want to turn it in you have a guaranteed remarkably predictable exit strategy on a zero down lease. That is a huge improvement in consumer options for this particular brand of car.

Musk is creating his own used TESLA pricing guarantee as if his name is Elon Bluebook.

That is a huge enticement to consumers who want to give this great car a whirl, but hesitate because they (by habit) are car traders and want to be able to change vehicles often, do not have a huge chunk of cashola to commit in a cashier's check at delivery, or have only some certainty TESLA will exist three years hence. The personal guarantee is a form of "I get out of my TESLA lease" insurance.

Leasing with a guaranteed buy back price opens the market to more people who love torque, ride, luxury and cache without worrying about how to try something else after they drive this car for a few years.

Tim, I get it that you don't think current battery technology can do the job that Tesla says it will do. That is okay. I trust WEB about value investing and I trust Elon about battery technology. You have no reason to agree with my choices. You have and should continue to make your own decisions.

As I said before this is not a value stock by any means, (TESLA is a start up automobile car company for goodness sakes). Automobile companies and air carriers are some of WEB's most disliked businesses.

I am taking a big long term risk on a new technology that no one else need follow. I just wanted to share the little that I had learned about this company with all of the great people who have so unsparingly shared their insights with this board.

Don't copy me... do your own research and thinking.

Sincerely,

jan

:^)

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Author: JeanDavid Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 200700 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/3/2013 4:44 PM
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But I sure wouldn't bet on it.

I might bet on it. If the commission were not so high, I might buy one share for the fun of it.


Well, I put in a limit order for one share of it. But it did not get down to my price today, though it might have. It is GTC, so I may get in in the next few days.

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Author: DavidAnglin Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 200704 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/3/2013 7:08 PM
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Jim,

Thank you for your reply that compared the stock price to sales volume between Tesla and other auto manufacturers.

Negative feedback based on thoughtful analysis is very valuable.

Thank you.

jan

:^)

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Author: michaelservet Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 201121 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/22/2013 7:16 PM
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As I said before this is not a value stock by any means, (TESLA is a start up automobile car company for goodness sakes). Automobile companies and air carriers are some of WEB's most disliked businesses.

I am taking a big long term risk on a new technology that no one else need follow.

___________________________________________

Greetings Jan -

Back just before New Year’s I paid a rare visit to the upscale mall in my region, and was surprised and a bit impressed to see a Tesla shop right in the center of the mall. I had figured that they had snagged some opportunistic mall space for the holidays (I was wrong) and were taking advantage of the season and that mall’s demographics to make an introductory splash.

Adding to Tesla’s initial impression, the prominent local dealer luxury marques had arranged to station a 9four-door) Porsche Panamera – perhaps the Tesla S’s most direct competitor – right outside the Tesla shop, cordoned off so the mall traffic had to walk around it, and they had also cordoned off an eye-catching Bentley in the middle of things nearby.

The mall was crowded, and everyone it seemed wanted to see and sit in the Tesla. The Porsche and Bentley were completely ignored. The whole crowd scene at the Tesla shop was pretty impressive, and so was the car, even just sitting there.

A couple of evenings later I happened to mention the Tesla shop to a neighbor who was knowledgeable about Tesla’s actual mall deals at that and the other upscale malls across the country and he said no, these weren’t opportunistic placements, Tesla were paying top dollar and signing long-term leases. We got a really good laugh about it and figured that was that – these folks really were fools.

The more that’s come out about Tesla, however, the more impressive their accomplishments. First, before we get into the car itself, its technology, and some valuation thoughts, let’s look at some of the numbers that are being tossed around about Tesla. If we look at those ‘price to sales’ ratios that are being , suggesting that Tesla’s current market cap is at 10x revenues (versus others at well under 1x), we should keep in mind those comparisons appear to be based on ‘trailing twelve months’ revenues.

The Tesla S, however, has only been in production since this past July and even then, in its early days of production intentionally was only releasing one vehicle day. The intentionally slow start was because they wanted to be sure – or as certain as they could be – that they were doing a good job on the early stages of the production run. Looking at 2012 revenue by quarter, $300 million of its $400million revenue was in the fourth quarter. And even that fourth quarter pace was measured. That’s still 4x (2012 Q4 annualized) revenues – but they are also operating at less than 25% capacity, again intentionally – so while a stretch, an eventual 1x, at current market cap, isn’t necessarily crazy.

Still, even with that cautious production start-up, they have built and sold more Tesla S’s than Chevy has sold Volts, or Nissan their Leafs. Their current run-rate – still at a fraction of available capacity – is supposedly something like 20,000 units. To put that in perspective of volumes of competing car models (with similar price points, target customers, performance levels, and cache), that’s more Tesla S’s coming off the line now than Maserati is selling Quadroportes globally, more than Porsche is selling of 911’s (again globally), and fast approaching perhaps its closest-model competitor (at least the way I see it) that Porsche Panamera.

From another perspective, they currently have a back-log of open orders equivalent to 3-times the number of vehicles they’ve produced to date. Again, they are intentionally trying to move slowly and get it right. Volume matters at some point, but if they get production quality right, and can get production volume to levels of positive cash flow, they may have created a valuable enterprise (more shortly).

Now let’s look at what they have accomplished with the Tesla S as a vehicle. Jan, your driving impressions seem to be mirrored by Automobile magazine:

Actually, the Model S can blow away almost anything….. "The crazy speed builds silently and then pulls back the edges of your face. It had all of us endangering our licenses."… its AC induction motor puts out 416 hp and that it blasts to 60 mph in 4.3 seconds. Even those numbers…fail to communicate how crazy it actually feels…..Unlike most electric cars, Tesla's torque amounts to a prodigious 443 lb-ft… [one editor] was so impressed that he arranged an informal drag race to 100 mph with a 560-hp BMW M5. The Model S won.

Of course, practically every new car claims to be revolutionary. But this one actually feels like it is…. there's a sense that even the smallest details here have been lavished with attention in order to be as distinctive and elegant as possible...…For all its high-tech novelty, the Model S does an exceptional job at the things we expect any high-priced sport sedan to do well. The electric power steering is nuanced and well-weighted, with natural buildup just off-center.

Through corners, the Model S exhibits impressive body control and vacuumlike grip despite weighing more than 4500 pounds. Editors also raved about the suspension's ability to soak up bumps that tortured other test cars. It was just as impressive on the racetrack…. it deserves credit for achieving a claimed 0.24 coefficient of drag -- better than a Toyota Prius or a Chevrolet Volt -- without those cars' gawky styling.

[The former manager] of the Ford GT program led development of the Model S's chassis components, and the steering was likewise developed by Ford and Lotus veterans. "The electric motor does not define this car," says Nelson. But it is, at the end of the day, what makes this very good sport sedan an absolute game changer…..more than any electric car that has come before it, the Model S feels and drives like a gasoline car of the same price.
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/awards/1301_2013_autom...

It’s absolutely astonishing to me that a new vehicle – by any manufacturer, let alone a start-up – can be at all seriously, let alone favorably, compared to a $100k offering from BMW (or Porsche etc.). This is an impressive accomplishment for any automaker. Further- and I’ll get off track from my ‘value’ lead-in here – whether it survives or not, Tesla is doing electric vehicle manufacturing in general a huge service in providing aspirational ‘halo’ vehicles. More of the car-driving world than we still want to admit would, given the choice, select something with a hemi under the hood. Or maybe an M5 or one of Porsche’s models. Tesla is offering a vehicle that these same folks could desire on its own terms – and not because it’s ‘pretty good for an electric car’.

As to where the nascent Tesla S fits into the automobile hierarchy – as noted in an earlier post the Economist ran an article about Tesla-the-electric-vehicle in their current auto industry special report. That issue included nine articles – eight others – in which Tesla was referenced more than any other manufacturer. One of those was on the trends for luxury vehicles – commenting on the cache of vehicles such as Rolls Royce, Tesla, and the like (and the failures of other marques in the segment, like Daimler Benz’s again-defunct Maybach). Again, this perceived luxury image is astonishing to me, from a new vehicle from a new manufacturer.

So we’re rooting for Tesla on at least one level. Let’s look at another, though I can’t speak to it and have no idea what it means or what its value might be, if any. MIT magazine ran this article recently:

…..one strategic decision stands out…..“Tesla’s lithium-ion battery pack technology is five to 10 years ahead of competitors when it comes to a passenger electric vehicle application, as measured by performance and cost to manufacture….Tesla’s battery lead allows it to produce a better vehicle at more affordable price.”

When Tesla was founded, it was based on an idea from J.B. Straubel, now Tesla’s chief technology officer, that commodity lithium-ion batteries designed for portable electronics could be used to make relatively low-cost battery packs for electric vehicles. Thousands of the small, cylindrical cells could be wired together to provide enough energy and power to propel a vehicle for hundreds of miles. To make this work, and to ensure the battery pack would be safe, Straubel had to develop a proprietary system for monitoring and cooling the batteries (see “JB Straubel: Engineering Electric Sports Cars”).

…Fisker, along with other automakers who have introduced battery-powered vehicles, including Nissan and GM, took a very different approach. It bought batteries from A123 Systems, the failed battery startup, that were custom-designed for use in automobiles and made in much smaller volumes (see “What Happened to A123?”). The advantage of these batteries was supposed to be twofold: the batteries were designed to be safer and, because they were bigger and flat rather than cylindrical, they were simpler to package together into a battery pack. A few hundred, rather than thousands, of separate cells would be needed.

But these purpose-built packs are far more expensive….. batteries from now-bankrupt A123 Systems cost between $1,000 and $1,500 per kilowatt-hour. Tesla’s packs….cost between $320 and $420 per kilowatt-hour. And A123’s batteries proved problematic….. A123 later had to recall its batteries...
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/513151/why-tesla-surviv...

Who knows.

So will Tesla make it? So far it has accomplished the incredible in terms of performance, technological advance, and even a perception of luxury. It’s already accomplished what a lot of other makers have tried and not yet delivered. (See reviews like these for BYD products? GM’s? Daimler’s alternative fuel offerings, even?) It probably doesn’t have to be a world-beater to be perceived as a valuable automotive property, at least to somebody. And Tesla doesn’t have any of that auto industry-type baggage like legacy costs, excessive manufacturing facilities, CAFE hurdles, and other problems.

For an existing auto maker, Tesla is a no-brainer as an acquisition candidate, and the only question is price – not fit. The technology, its instant impact (and high future potential) on existing manufacturers’ fleet economy standards, its ability to stand alone as a manufacturing unit, or not – all likely give it at least the potential to be one of the more desirable strategic acquisition targets on the automotive landscape, at least for its size. At what price? Who knows. Would, say, some Chinese company bid for it if it were on the block? One of the Europeans?

And what’s particularly interesting is that while it might have particular attraction to an existing auto company – its battery technology; proven performance; perceived quality and brand image – its ultimate disposition may not have to be limited to an auto company. With its design, manufacturing, and even distribution so unique to itself and self-contained, if it is actually able to develop and produce these vehicles without draining further cash, who else might be interested?

Just on a flier – and not that they would – if Google or Apple or anyone else with piles of cash burning holes in their pockets were to have some stroke of something-or-other and decide to take a flier in this segment, what auto manufacturer might they pick up? Highly unlikely, of course. But this isn’t your typical car company. If Tesla proves to be self-sufficient in design and production, and self-funding, and scalable, what price might be too much?

And let’s remember that if anything, its founder knows exit strategies – and he doesn’t have undue sentimentality towards his creations. He knows how and when to go for the payday.

Now don’t get me wrong – I’m not suggesting I’d tag this with its current $5B+ valuation, or that I’d be buying this business at that price. I do think there’s more downside potential at these current levels than upside –but I don’t have much conviction in that suspicion. Given what they’ve achieved and knowing that the founder does understand how - and when - to sell a business, I wouldn’t be quick to sell them short, either.

One thing’s for sure though: what they’ve accomplished is incredible – I would have said unbelievable – and it’s easy to have respect for what they have been able to manage so far, and to cheer for their success. And maybe experience driving one of their cars. I’m not jumping on board, but I hope that Tesla flier really pays off.

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Author: DavidAnglin Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 201123 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/22/2013 9:57 PM
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Dear Michael,

Even though Elon Musk's personal cashola is not represented on the books of Tesla, it is the elephant in the room.

He is a fighter and when needed he commits his personal fortune to back up the promises he makes on behalf of his company Tesla.

If you factor in his reported multi-billion dollar net worth as the backstop for this company, the long term potential for this company changes.

Musk's personal wealth relative to the market cap of Tesla is far different than WEB's personal wealth versus the market cap of Berkshire.

Musk's time and wealth commitment to Tesla is similar and yet different than Warren's to Berkshire.

1. Both men focus on their businesses in a truly obsessive way. Warren and Bill Gates would call that way of working, "focus".

2. Both men look at more than the accounts, they see the big picture and have x-ray vision to see potential that others do not see.

3. Both men eat their own cooking. The difference is that Warren is risk averse and more so as he ages. Elon "looks through" to the importance of making a difficult business concept work even though the risk of failure is high. In my mind, Musk reminds me of the tenacious behavior of WEB during the fight for the life of the Buffalo newspaper. Warren doesn't choose a business that is risky, but if a business he chooses becomes risky and he needs to save it, somehow he finds the people to help him fix the troubles and he never abandons that sort of fight. Elon, doesn't delegate so much, he fights his own fights and fixes his own companies' problems, but he is tenacious as well. Both men are devoted to not going back to "go" (monopoly analogy).

4. Both men aren't interested in having their names on buildings, etc. It is the success of their work that will be their legacy.

5. If you read the Annual Reports written by WEB and Musk, you will see that they both understand the concept of "knowing where I am going to die and then not going there". Musk's lists of all the things that can go wrong for his companies are fully negative and thought out in his SEC filings. Neither men, would ever put out the sort of aren't we wonderful, PR nonsense that is meant to sweep the cash of folks who are too short of time to think deeply about their investments into their SEC filings.

6. Both men realize that if the CEO does not have character, then the business is in serious jeopardy.

7. Although they both stick to their knitting, they both knit very differently. Warren knits well and slowly, Elon knits well rapidly enough to win the Guiness record for speed. But both knit slowly when slow knitting is required.

There are more analogies to be made, but in case I start comparing the Norwegian continental purl to the various other ways of successfully operating knitting needles...

I shall stop here.

Thank you Michael for your lengthy research into TESLA. Character, a history of success, dogged persistence and "eating your own cooking", constitute greatness in a CEO.

Don't ever underestimate a phenomenon; neither as a CEO, nor as a generous poster to this board. I look up to so many people on this board, but Michael is a true phenomenon. Isn't he?

Sincerely,

jan

:^)

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Author: DavidAnglin Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 201124 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/22/2013 10:12 PM
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After I posted the previous reply... I found this link... it is not about Tesla.

However it does show a lot about how Elon tackles difficult concepts that others have not attempted and then executes them in a step by step way.

Consider watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoxiK7K28PU&feature=youtu...

Space-X is adding to Elon's personal bottom line which in turn back stops Tesla.

jan

:^)

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 201127 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/23/2013 12:41 AM
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Back just before New Year’s I paid a rare visit to the upscale mall in my region, and was surprised and a bit impressed to see a Tesla shop right in the center of the mall. I had figured that they had snagged some opportunistic mall space for the holidays (I was wrong) and were taking advantage of the season and that mall’s demographics to make an introductory splash.
Tesla is expansing big into malls right now. I have many colleagues who are working as PMs there, and they are even busier than I am at the moment.

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Author: karensie Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 201128 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/23/2013 6:36 AM
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"Electric Cars Are the Future: Detroit Electric CEO"

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/electric-cars-are-the-future-...

Tim

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Author: michaelservet Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 201131 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/23/2013 12:35 PM
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Still, even with that cautious production start-up, they have built and sold more Tesla S’s than Chevy has sold Volts, or Nissan their Leafs.
______________________________

Re-reading this, it was poorly worded. It should have been specific to the most recent quarter (and not an implied 'since forever') -- from 'greencarretports':

The big news in plug-in car sales for March was Tesla's statement that it delivered "more than 4,750" Model S electric cars from January through March [by comparison, GM sold 4,244 Volt's and Nissan sold 3,539 Leaf's in the quarter]
_____________________________


Separately, that Detroit Electric interview is telling. Maybe we'll see a lot of shoestring entries into this market (DE is looking to raise at least $50 million for this venture). It's a sign of the times, perhaps, that they are giving interviews at the auto show - with a prototype on display - and they don't yet have a factory lined up for production. They look to be outsourcing pretty much everything, including the body (from Lotus) and their battery production (from a few separate sources in the hope that they can avoid another Fisker/A123 debacle).

DE's approach is interesting in that they look to replicate Tesla's path from five years ago - sans the proprietary batteries - when Tesla started production of its original Lotus-based sports car. Aside from being five years later and using the same initial vehicle platform (an ultra-light-weight Lotus), some key differences - we'd think 'disadvantages' - might be much shorter range (DE's projected 150 miles) and higher base price ($135k). If Tesla is a long shot, maybe Detroit Electric is a moon shot. But who knows.

Speaking of the Lotus Exige - the underlying vehicle for this Detroit Electric prototype - when the Exige first came out I stopped by the local Lotus dealer to have a look. Then I made huge mistake: I asked to sit in one. The salesperson took me outside and opened the door, and I squeezed in nicely enough. But then I got stuck there. The problem was that I found I couldn't bend my knees - at all. The Exige had a hard top - a low one - so I couldn't just push myself vertically with my arms (as in tricept 'dip' exercises). The only thing I could do was fall out stiff-legged sideways onto the ground, putting my weight on both palms and walking myself out on my hands, dragging myself out onto the pavement.

This was really embarrassing, and I figured no way was I going to ever let this happen to me in public. So much for my Lotus fantasies (just as well, of course). I noticed in the DE video it was shot with two lithe young ladies in the vehicle. What I would have liked to have seen was footage of them climbing out. Then again it looked liked their combined weights might have been less than mine - maybe their combined ages too. Perhaps not everyone looking at the DE-type offerings will be put off.

We can probably expect to see more of this until things settle down. Already we've had Fisker.

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Author: JeanDavid Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 201135 of 212003
Subject: Re: OT-Tesla Date: 4/23/2013 4:21 PM
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We can probably expect to see more of this until things settle down. Already we've had Fisker.

In about 1964, I bought a Lotus 26 convertible, and I liked it a lot except it had all the problems of English cars at the time: sloppy workmanship, poor materials, Lucas electrical systems, ... I mean it was as though they used aluminum bolts and lead nuts. I drove it 400 miles an most everything fell off the dashboard (beautiful oiled teak). If you did not tighten the bolts enough, they came undone. If you tried to tighten them, they stripped. I had to replace them all with SAE rated ones. The connection from the gas pedal to the dual Weber carburettors was amusing... Except when accelerating up an entrance onto the Garden State Parkway and the wire came loose and the engine dropped to idle just as some cars were coming up behind me at 60 miles per hour. And so it went.

I am small enough I could get in and out OK, but I did have to wear 9C shoes (my shoe size is 9D) so I did not hit the clutch, brake, and gas all at the same time.

I had two of them, the convertible and the hard top: convertible tops in New Jersey rot out too fast. Also, try to get a transmission countershaft when you need one. Forget it.

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