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This blog was an interesting, but long, read. Caution, there is some R-rated language.

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html

I believe that the human animal – the raw material of our physical bodies – is essentially interchangeable. By this I mean that I could take the children of Fallujah and turn them all into Astronauts, convert Jewish babies into fanatical, mass-murdering SS guards, and shake a generation of the poorest Voodoo-worshippers in Haiti into a cadre of top-flight nuclear physicists, chemical engineers and computer scientists.

Race has nothing to do with this – precisely nothing. The mobs of murdering Hutus and swarms of slaughtering Serbs are as different racially as it is possible to be, and they are cut from precisely the same cloth.

I know this is so because there have been murdering scumbags of every stripe and color in the long history of the human race – which is depressing – and that these animals, at any given time, represent only a small percentage of the majority of people, also of every stripe and color – which is not. There is no corner on virtue, and no outpost of depravity. Human hearts are indistinguishable and interchangeable. Anyone who claims otherwise is, without further argument or statements necessary, a complete God-damned idiot.

Now, with that said – have we all heard that loud and clear? – there are light-years of difference in how various Tribes will behave.

Only a few minutes ago, I had the delightful opportunity to read the comment of a fellow who said he wished that white, middle-class, racist, conservative c*s*rs like myself could have been herded into the Superdome Concentration Camp to see how much we like it. Absent, of course, was the fundamental truth of what he plainly does not have the eyes or the imagination to see, namely, that if the Superdome had been filled with white, middle-class, racist, conservative c*s*rs like myself, it would not have been a refinery of horror, but rather a citadel of hope and order and restraint and compassion.

That has nothing to do with me being white. If the blacks and Hispanics and Jews and gays that I work with and associate with were there with me, it would have been that much better. That's because the people I associate with – my Tribe – consists not of blacks and whites and gays and Hispanics and Asians, but of individuals who do not rape, murder, or steal.
My Tribe consists of people who know that sometimes bad things happen, and that these are an opportunity to show ourselves what we are made of. My people go into burning buildings. My Tribe consists of organizers and self-starters, proud and self-reliant people who do not need to be told what to do in a crisis. My Tribe is not fearless; they are something better. They are courageous. My Tribe is honorable, and decent, and kind, and inventive. My Tribe knows how to give orders, and how to follow them. My Tribe knows enough about how the world works to figure out ways to boil water, ration food, repair structures, build and maintain makeshift latrines, and care for the wounded and the dead with respect and compassion.

There are some things my Tribe is not good at at all. My Tribe doesn't make excuses. My Tribe will analyze failure and assign blame, but that is to make sure that we do better next time, and we never, ever waste valuable energy and time doing so while people are still in danger. My Tribe says, and in their heart completely believes that it's the other guy that's the hero. My Tribe does not believe that a single Man can cause, prevent or steer Hurricanes, and my Tribe does not and has never made someone else responsible for their own safety, and that of their loved ones.

My Tribe doesn't fire on people risking their lives, coming to help us. My Tribe doesn't curse such people because they arrived on Day Four, when we felt they should have been here before breakfast on Day One. We are grateful, not to say indebted, that they have come at all. My Tribe can't eat Nike's and we don't know how to feed seven by boiling a wide-screen TV. My Tribe doesn't give a sweet God Damn about what color the looters are, or what color the rescuers are, because we can plainly see before our very eyes that both those Tribes have colors enough to cover everyone in glory or in shame. My Tribe doesn't see black and white skins. My Tribe only sees black and white hats, and the hat we choose to wear is the most personal decision we can make.

That's the other thing, too – the most important thing. My Tribe thinks that while you are born into a Tribe, you do not have to stay there. Good people can join bad Tribes, and bad people can choose good ones. My Tribe thinks you choose your Tribe. That, more than anything, is what makes my Tribe unique.

I am so utterly and unabashedly proud of my Tribe, that my words haunt and mock me for their pale weakness and shameful inadequacy.

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My tribe would have loaded up Hardy (small dog), + Max, Emily, and Callie(3 cats), + Bonnie (wife) and high tailed it out of there long before Katrina got anywhere near New Orleans. I would have been watching that storm before it ever left South Florida. I would have known several days in advance that it was headed for New Orleans and I would have been packing vehicles and probably Bonnie and I each would have driven a car North towards family or friends houses.

Also, my tribe would never live, buy, or own a house that was below sea level right next to the ocean in an area prone to hurricanes. It's moronic. What were they thinking?

Not that I have any interest in living anywhere near New Oreleans. The waters way too murky, green, and polluted for diving. - Art
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"my tribe would never live, buy, or own a house that was below sea level right next to the ocean in an area prone to hurricanes. It's moronic. What were they thinking? "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

They were thinking , "Maybe it won't happen to me. Maybe it won't
impact my home - my family. Maybe I'll be clever enough to get away."

Like the folks who live in San Francisco.
Like the folks who live in Los Angeles.
Like the folks who live in points between.
Like the folks who live on the Florida coast, the Georgia coast, the
Carolinas, Virginia, and so on.
Like the folks who live in tornado alley.
Like the folks who live in flood plains.
Like the folks who live where drout is routine and severe.
Like the folks who live next to chemical plants, power plants,
railroad lines, interstate highways, prisons.
Like anyone who drives on the highways.


Howie52
Geez Louize - people have been and will continue to say and do
dumb things until the world ends ----- and possibly beyond that time.
We live with a deathly bright blade just over our necks - always.
In many ways our inability to focus on the negatives of life is
our greatest strength. We can build, and rebuild, and rebuild.

We do have a talent for such things.



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Art: Also, my tribe would never live, buy, or own a house that was below sea level right next to the ocean in an area prone to hurricanes. It's moronic. What were they thinking?


So, I guess that means if you win the lottery, that mansion in Key West is out?

--Chooey
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Howie52
Geez Louize - people have been and will continue to say and do
dumb things until the world ends ----- and possibly beyond that time.
We live with a deathly bright blade just over our necks - always.
In many ways our inability to focus on the negatives of life is
our greatest strength. We can build, and rebuild, and rebuild.

We do have a talent for such things.


I still wouldn't build a house below sea level surrounded by water on two sides, protected by a crappy levee. My brother lives 50 miles inland from the Georgia coast. He gets big storms, but his house sits on a sand hill and it will never flood. Where I used to live in Vero Beach, Florida, was about 10 miles inland, and no matter how big a storm blew up, it would never flood. And, if it did the flood waters would have quickly receded - BECAUSE IT WASN'T BELOW SEA LEVEL! - Art
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Art: Also, my tribe would never live, buy, or own a house that was below sea level right next to the ocean in an area prone to hurricanes. It's moronic. What were they thinking?

So, I guess that means if you win the lottery, that mansion in Key West is out? --Chooey

Key West isn't below sea level. Not only that. If win the lottery, I doubt I'd spend the hurricane season in Key West. I'd probably spend the summers someplace cool like Northern Michigan where my brother owns some property. I may not own anything, but just rent instead. I'm starting to think that owning stuff sucks because you have to worry about it and take care of it. It would be nice to leave and not give a rat's behind what happened after you turned in the key.

I've got tickets to Friday nights MegaMillions drawing. It's up to $172 Million dollars. http://www.megamillions.com

I guarantee you, if I see a hurricane headed my way, I'm out of there. Especially one as big as Katrina got to be. I remember what Andrew did to Homestead Florida. I knew what to expect. Like being inside a blender when it's turned on high. - Art
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<<My Tribe doesn't fire on people risking their lives, coming to help us. My Tribe doesn't curse such people because they arrived on Day Four, when we felt they should have been here before breakfast on Day One. We are grateful, not to say indebted, that they have come at all. My Tribe can't eat Nike's and we don't know how to feed seven by boiling a wide-screen TV. My Tribe doesn't give a sweet God Damn about what color the looters are, or what color the rescuers are, because we can plainly see before our very eyes that both those Tribes have colors enough to cover everyone in glory or in shame. My Tribe doesn't see black and white skins. My Tribe only sees black and white hats, and the hat we choose to wear is the most personal decision we can make.
>>


Mmmmm. I think this exagerates the goodness of "my tribe." The fact is, lots of good people do rotten, mean things. I recal that Joseph Wambaugh, who wrote some good cop novels, had one of his cops observe that what really made cops cynical is not the things that "those people" do, but the evil things that the best people in society did.



Seattle Pioneer
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"I still wouldn't build a house below sea level surrounded by water on two sides, protected by a crappy levee. My brother lives 50 miles inland from the Georgia coast. He gets big storms, but his house sits on a sand hill and it will never flood. Where I used to live in Vero Beach, Florida, was about 10 miles inland, and no matter how big a storm blew up, it would never flood. And, if it did the flood waters would have quickly receded - BECAUSE IT WASN'T BELOW SEA LEVEL! - Art"

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Tell it to the Dutch.

Although I don't figure I'd choose New Orleans as a place to build
either, I figure folks tend to live in the area where they work.
If I had a job in New Orleans, I'd be homeless today.
Jobless as well probably.

Howie52
A lot of folks are born and raised in one place and that is all they
know or want to know. It is less common than it used to be but
still is not atypical.


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Tell it to the Dutch.

How often do Cat 5 hurricanes hit the Dutch coast?

1HF

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Howie52
A lot of folks are born and raised in one place and that is all they
know or want to know. It is less common than it used to be but
still is not atypical.


My friend in Albany, NY calls me about once a week during the winter and tells me how cold it is, how high the snow is piled up, and how much he hates it. I tell him it's 40 degrees, overcast, and drizzling in Knoxville, TN.

If I win that lottery Friday night I think I'd like to spend the winters in South Florida. That is all. - Art
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Tell it to the Dutch. - Howey

How often do Cat 5 hurricanes hit the Dutch coast? 1HF


My baby sister, who'll be 47 this year, is trying to move to Sweden to be with some online Romeo she met while online. She did visit him last year for a couple of months. I think it's entirely nuts. I just don't get the allure of Europe. Old buildings, foreign language, and a whole lot of people with their hands out. It's far away and it's expensive. Anything they got, we got the same thing and possibly better.

We've got Santa Fe, New Mexico, Giant Redwood trees in Northern California, the Pacific coast, white sandy beaches, coral reefs, etc. and it's not as far from home and I don't need a passport to get there. Heck we even have some pretty good wines right here. Tennessee Valley Winery makes an excellent Muscadine that's delicious!

I have no interest in going to Europe whatsoever. So, the Dutch can have their below sea level cities, but I still think it's nutty. I don't see the point. You can't beat good tacos and Tex-Mex food right here in the United States.

I'm sort of hoping that it doesn't work out for my sister. I don't want her moving away to Sweden forever. - Art
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"Tell it to the Dutch.

How often do Cat 5 hurricanes hit the Dutch coast?

1HF"

^^^^^^^^^^^

Here are a couple links to the "storm of the century" - about
1800 folks died in the Netherlands


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/08/0829_wiredutch.html

"In 1953 a storm surge smashed through the sea defenses in southern Holland and nearly 2,000 people drowned. A 1995 river flood forced the evacuation of 200,000 people and millions of animals from endangered areas. Much of the countryside would drown in the continuous rain if pumping stations didn't lift the water up, over the seawalls, and into the North Sea."


http://www.wonderclub.com/WorldWonders/ProtectionHistory.html

“In 1953, the "storm of the century" howled across the North Sea and into the Netherlands, testing the strength of the Zuider Zee enclosure. It held, with damage to the causeway heavy in places. The country's unprotected southwestern provinces felt the full brunt of the storm, with water surging over seawalls and up the delta's wide waterways. More than 1,800 people lost their lives, and livestock numbering in the hundreds of thousands perished. The country then realized that the long-intended plan to safeguard the southwestern delta, the Delta Plan or Delta Project, must be mobilized”

Everyone has to deal with weather and things the world throws at you.

Howie52
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Speaking of European wines, Tennessee has some pretty good wines right here in Southern Appalachia so you don't have to go all the way to France to buy or drink them. I found the link to one of them. Excellent Muscadine. - Art

http://www.tnvalleywine.com/

Tennessee Valley Winery

Our Mission
We strive to provide our customers with high quality alternatives to Californian and imported wines.

Who are we?

Welcome to the home page of the Tennessee Valley Winery. We strive to bring you the very best in Tennessee wines. Our wines have won over 700 awards from California to New York and everywhere in between. We offer a selection of around twenty-five different wines ranging from Cynthania and Cabernet Sauvignon to Muscadine and a selection of fruit wines. We even have a wonderful Honey (Attitude) Mead. For a complete listing of our wines with prices, please click the wine links to the left.


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Everyone has to deal with weather and things the world throws at you.
Howie52


The whole purpose of life is for us to experience separation. Three of my sisters lost their husbands within a 6 month period. Two of them became widows, and my baby sister got a divorce from her husband of 22 years.

Now I'm fixing to experience separation from my younger sister, the one who I helped raise, because she wants to move to Sweden where I won't see her again till after we've both crossed over.

If we knew absolutely for certain that death was an illusion it would lose it's sting. The huge emotional impact of losing someone you love, for whatever reason, teaches us a very important lesson in life, that we exist as unique separate individuals.

There is no separation in Heaven. Believe it or not. Compare the two quotes below. See the parallels? - Art

"Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole." - from the holographic universe http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

"I literally had the feeling that I was everywhere in the universe simultaneously." - from Mark Horton's NDE http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html
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Much of the countryside would drown in the continuous rain if pumping stations didn't lift the water up, over the seawalls, and into the North Sea."

So you're saying that "much of the countryside" is the rough equivalent of the few square miles inside the levees of NO? Does each little town protect itself or does the whole country protect the whole country?

There is no question of whether the technology exists for protecting the few square miles of NO. The question is how much weight to give to the environmental, economic and emotional aspects of the decision. Do those few people within the levees deserve to be subsidized by the entire country? Are we hostage to their emotions? Is it so essential that those few square miles contain housing when there are so many other houses and safer sites to build houses available? Does it make sense to expend energy pumping a sump when it isn't necessary to the economic well being of the nation?

Nobody is being asked to stop being an American by moving out of the flooded area, so what justifies subsidy by all of America? Nobody is asked to stop being a Lousianan by moving out of the flooded area, so what justifies subsidy by Louisiana? The people of NO live in a sump. My parents live in a house that has a basement that will flood if the sump pump fails. If that happens, should someone from the federal govenment show up to pump out their basement, repair their pump, buy them a new washer, dryer and water heater and then restock their food? It's lunacy.

We will be money ahead if we show some respect for sea level. We will be better off environmentally if sacrifice a fe square miles. We will lose fewer Americans if we ignore their complaints and introduce them to reality.

1HF
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Mmmmm. I think this exagerates the goodness of "my tribe." The fact is, lots of good people do rotten, mean things. I recal that Joseph Wambaugh, who wrote some good cop novels, had one of his cops observe that what really made cops cynical is not the things that "those people" do, but the evil things that the best people in society did.



Seattle Pioneer


I read this earlier and I thought about it for a while and I think you're missing the point about "my tribe". As I read it, I assumed that "my tribe" meant' people who share the same values as me. That would by definition exclude "the evil things that the best people in society did" because those people aren't really members of my tribe because they don't share my values. I would not do what my values would not justify. Wambaugh's cop made a value judgement about "the best people in society" and learned he could be fooled by his assumptions, so his message was really "you can't judge a book by it's cover". This is what the blogger was saying when he said that the people in his tribe include many diverse people who share common values. Their covers were different, but their contents were sufficiently alike.

1HF
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I just don't get the allure of Europe. Old buildings, foreign language, and a whole lot of people with their hands out. It's far away and it's expensive. Anything they got, we got the same thing and possibly better.


What we have is different. Some things are better. Other things aren't. I took German language in high school and college. By seeing how things were done in another language, it made me really undertand how the English language works, in a way that I couldn't get otherwise. If you've ever studied a foreign language you know what I'm talking about.

Same with visiting a foreign country. By seeing how other people do things, it makes us think about how we do things. Its a very enriching experience I think.








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I just don't get the allure of Europe. Old buildings, foreign language, and a whole lot of people with their hands out. It's far away and it's expensive. Anything they got, we got the same thing and possibly better.

History, really, really interesting history. And those old buildings are really, really fabulous. I regard the old buildings the way I regard the Zapotec pyramids--remnants of a once vital and powerful civilization that dominated parts of the world, now dead, only the Europeans don't know it yet.

--fleg
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aagh fleg, you are a Renaissance man of my own heart.



MG - loves America the best, but thinks there are really cool places in other parts of the world
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"Nobody is being asked to stop being an American by moving out of the flooded area, so what justifies subsidy by all of America? Nobody is asked to stop being a Lousianan by moving out of the flooded area, so what justifies subsidy by Louisiana? The people of NO live in a sump. My parents live in a house that has a basement that will flood if the sump pump fails. If that happens, should someone from the federal govenment show up to pump out their basement, repair their pump, buy them a new washer, dryer and water heater and then restock their food? It's lunacy. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There are a lot of folks who live in flood plains.
Logical?
Only to the folks who live there.

What justifies a subsidy?
Well, one could argue that folks have paid taxes.
One could argue that the subsidy provided goes directly
back into the economy - that it provides jobs and income and
re-growth of the region.
The city of New Orleans - although decribed as a sump - is
just like any other city ----- it is a home to workers who man
the docks --- all the businesses in the area.
The number of pipelines criss-crossing Lousiana do not exist in a
vacuum.

Howie52
If you ask if I would choose to live there - no. But there
are reasons folks do live there and will return.
Every flood along the Mississippi River, Red River, Ohio River - there
are arguments raised as to why folks rebuild in the flood plains.
Why does the government provide assistance to rebuild a building
that will be underwater again in 20 or 30 years.
They are good arguments and have points.



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I would be a bit more cautious with beating the chest over one's "tribe", considering the wholesale abandonment of the supposed "tribal values" in Abu Grahib and similar instances.
The blanket of civilization is oh so thin.
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History, really, really interesting history. And those old buildings are really, really fabulous. I regard the old buildings the way I regard the Zapotec pyramids--remnants of a once vital and powerful civilization that dominated parts of the world, now dead, only the Europeans don't know it yet. --fleg

On the Travel Channel there's a program on called "5 Takes On Europe." 5 kids traveling around Europe. Old buildings, eating pizza, drinking wine, etc. A building is a building. I prefer nature. The water in Venice looked green, nasty, and polluted to me. What I saw of Venice on the Travel Channel looked disgusting. They said it costs like 90 Euros to ride a Gondola. To ride in a rowboat!

Personally, I just don't get it. We got Pizza and wine right here in East TN. I make homemade pizza quite often. The other day I even made the sauce starting from fresh tomatoes from the neighbor's garden. My buddy makes lots of homemade wine, and there's several wineries in East TN. No big deal. I prefer Welches Grape Juice anyway. Not fond of ethanol.

I'm also not fond of cities or buildings. All I can think of is how unnatural it is. Crowded cities and pollution and green nasty water are disgusting. I like pristine forests, clear running water, blue sky, giant trees, wild animals, etc. I'd much rather go to Estes Park in Colorado any day. Whenever I see New York City in movies or on TV I think about how many trees they had to cut down to build it. I wonder what it must have looked like before Europeans paved it over and turned the water all nasty, brown and green.

You want to see something beautiful? Go float down the Itchnetucknee River in Florida. It's like the Garden of Eden. The water is as clear as a swimming pool, full of fish and wildlife, surrounded by big giant trees, birds, turtles, etc. - Art

Itchnetucknee Springs State Park
http://www.floridastateparks.org/ichetuckneesprings/default.cfm


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<<I read this earlier and I thought about it for a while and I think you're missing the point about "my tribe". As I read it, I assumed that "my tribe" meant' people who share the same values as me. That would by definition exclude "the evil things that the best people in society did" because those people aren't really members of my tribe because they don't share my values. I would not do what my values would not justify. Wambaugh's cop made a value judgement about "the best people in society" and learned he could be fooled by his assumptions, so his message was really "you can't judge a book by it's cover". This is what the blogger was saying when he said that the people in his tribe include many diverse people who share common values. Their covers were different, but their contents were sufficiently alike.

1HF
>>


I don't think you can have a "tribe" that allows you to cherry pick people who get caught doing evil after the fact. If you identify a group of people, by whatever standards, over time a significant percentage of them will find ways to do evil things, and a smaller percentage of that population will actually get caught doing evil things.

This gets back to the Christian idea that all men are sinners. I subscribe to that idea, and I even think it's important that it is so. This idea allows society to have high personal standards of behavior, even if we know that a certain percentage of people (or even all of us, some of the time) will fail to achieve those standards. Despite the failures, this encourages a higher standard of personal behavior than if we set standards of behavior low.

This is the opposite of the left-liberal idea that discourages the idea of judging people for their behavior on the theory that we need to minimize people's failures. Do that and you increase the level of bad behavior, because standards are set low.


Seattle Pioneer
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Howie52 replies:
There are a lot of folks who live in flood plains.
Logical?
Only to the folks who live there.

What justifies a subsidy?
Well, one could argue that folks have paid taxes.


You completely dodged my question about whether the federal government should repair the damage from my parents failed sump pump. BTW, my parents pay taxes.

Your argument is emotional. Would you at least agree that any decision should be made on the basis of rational and logical arguments?

One could argue that the subsidy provided goes directly
back into the economy - that it provides jobs and income


So, are you now arguing that we as a society should buy what we don't need as a means to stimulate the economy? I can think of better ways.

and re-growth of the region.

Is this a need? How do you justify this need?

The city of New Orleans - although decribed as a sump - is
just like any other city


Except for the fact that is below sea level and can't afford to keep itself dry.

it is a home to workers who man
the docks --- all the businesses in the area.


You're using emotional arguments. Those don't work on me. Those workers can live elsewhere. Those businesses can be elsewhere.

The number of pipelines criss-crossing Lousiana do not exist in a
vacuum.


No, they exist in a marsh. That marsh has some high ground. The number of people "in harm's way" can be greatly reduced. The opportunity exists now to make good economic decisions that quite probably are also good environmental decisions. You would have us ignore those benefits to kowtow to the desires of people who wish to live in harm's way at our expense.

Howie52
If you ask if I would choose to live there - no. But there
are reasons folks do live there and will return.


How can they return if the land is underwater, we pay the owners to abandon it, we outlawed building on it and we let the sea do what it does?

Every flood along the Mississippi River, Red River, Ohio River - there
are arguments raised as to why folks rebuild in the flood plains.
Why does the government provide assistance to rebuild a building
that will be underwater again in 20 or 30 years.
They are good arguments and have points.


Your objections are not based on good arguments.

You bring up that the Dutch live below sea level and presumably nationally subsidize their levies. I would suggest that they have little choice in the matter. Otoh, we have choice and we have a societal responsibility to make the right choice.

Much of the floodplains you describe in both the US and the Netherlands is dedicated to farmland. Huge areas are at risk, but relatively few lives. Huge strategic benefits are available with very favorable economics. In the US, gravity and evaporation make the land dry again after a flood. That is not the case for those few square miles of NO. They are no longer worth the cost of recovering them, except in the minds of a few people who insist others pay for it.

1HF
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Everyone has to deal with weather and things the world throws at you.

The thing is, no one plans for a 200 year event. We can barely plan for a ten year event. A small snowstorm in Art's neck of the woods would paralyze several states. The same storm in Buffalo would not even be noticed. So wherever you live, you and your community have reduced your risk to a level based on some balance of cost, insight, fear, and congressional pork.
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"You completely dodged my question about whether the federal government should repair the damage from my parents failed sump pump. BTW, my parents pay taxes."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sorry, I didn't catch your question.
No. The government would not be liable for a sump pump failure.
In some circumstances they may qualify for a low-interest loan.

I don't recall if a sump pump failure is covered by most home
owners insurance but I think it is. Memory serves me poorly
right now.


"You're using emotional arguments. Those don't work on me. "

Economics are not generally considered emotional.
Neither are logistics or distribution issues.
But, whether they are emotional arguments or whether you agree with them
do not cause me heartache.
Funding - in some form or other - is going to be provided through
congressional action.

"Much of the floodplains you describe in both the US and the Netherlands is dedicated to farmland"

I could be wrong on this but I seem to recall that the city of
Rotterdam is below sea level.

New Orleans is certainly not as valuable to the country as Rotterdam
is to the Netherlands. Certainly, the Dutch are much more experienced
in dealing with industrial development, recovering value from the sea,
and handling the design and building of levees and dams.
Perhaps we could ask them for assistance.

From the perspective of the federal government providing
assistance for the rebuilding of New Orleans - although this was not
the issue I was posting to support or oppose - I see no problem in
doing so and see great benefits for Lousiana, Mississippi, Alabama,
Texas ---- and for the whole country.
Personally, I have seen improvements in just about all rebuilding
projects which have been attempted, funded and completed.
Rebuilding brings in jobs - high and low-tech.
Priming the pump is a good thing to do ---- local, state, or federal
money will work wonders.



Howie52
I understand you will not agree.


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I took German language in high school and college. By seeing how things were done in another language, it made me really undertand how the English language works, in a way that I couldn't get otherwise.

I had a thought recently that it'd be interesting to get hold of an English translation of a German grammar book.

English grammar is normally expressed in terms taken from Latin grammar (which is also where we get the rule that a preposition is not something to end a sentence with) - but English is not closely related to Latin. It's much more closely related to German.
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<< Certainly, the Dutch are much more experienced
in dealing with industrial development, recovering value from the sea,
and handling the design and building of levees and dams.
>>


What a crock.

The Dutch have a small part of one large river and the whole country produces less and has less area than many American states.

Where is the Dutch counterpart of building the Panama Canal, St Lawrence Seaway or the series of dams and locks that allows seagoing vessels to make port in Lewiston, Idaho after going up the Columbia and Snake Rivers?

The Dutch had their heyday in the 17th century.



Seattle Pioneer
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A small snowstorm in Art's neck of the woods would paralyze several states. The same storm in Buffalo would not even be noticed. - Spinning

10 or so years ago we had a big snowstorm and our power went out for four days. There was about 18" of snow on our driveway which meant we were effectively snowed in.

It was great fun! We had candles, kerosene lanterns, built fires in the fireplace to stay warm, snuggled up in our sleeping bags, and did just fine. I even cooked Ramen noodles and fried chicken over a log fire. I was ready. No problem.

I always expect the worst. I'm a pessimist deep down in my soul. If I had lived on the Gulf Coast and had seen Katrina headed our way I would have been out of there so fast your head would spin. I'm a big believer in Murphy's Law. If anything can go wrong, it will.

Even though I now believe in some kind of "life after death" I still don't believe in "then a miracle happens." Those "god thingies" on the other side don't seem to care two hoots how much we suffer on this side. - Art
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<<I always expect the worst. I'm a pessimist deep down in my soul. If I had lived on the Gulf Coast and had seen Katrina headed our way I would have been out of there so fast your head would spin. I'm a big believer in Murphy's Law. If anything can go wrong, it will.
>>


As a fellow pessimist, I have to ask why you continue to buy lottery tickets when you have this outlook and philosophy?



Seattle Pioneer
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As a fellow pessimist, I have to ask why you continue to buy lottery tickets when you have this outlook and philosophy? - Seattle Pioneer

Your a whole lot more risk averse than I am. Remember I got married when I was 21! Luckily, that worked out pretty well for me.

I don't drink ethanol, I don't smoke (anything), don't do illegal drugs. Besides eating - buying lottery tickets is my only vice. What else am I going to do with the money? Buy more food? Get even fatter than I all ready am? I all ready eat pretty good. Tomorrow nights Mega-millions drawing is for $172,000,000 dollars. I could spend every winter in the Tropics diving on some coral reef. That's my idea of Heaven. (it's why I don't understand Bush Jr.? He's all ready rich, who needs all the hassles of being President?)

I used to really be into spearfishing. Mostly I shot "mid-sized" fish. A couple of times I nailed really huge catfish. I mean pushing 50 lbs. My wife was up on the boat and I came up out of the water yelling "I did it!" She wasn't surprised at all. She figured I was a winner. I had a 45 lb catfish on the end of my spear. It was HUGE! If I hadn't tried, I wouldn't have gotten it. I spear fished for years before I got those fish.

Those few bucks I spend on lottery tickets won't break me. They are not the difference between eating and not eating. The way I figure it -if I don't buy a ticket, I won't win. It only takes one time to change my life forever. One time and I'm spending my winters in Paradise - and I don't even have to die to get there. - Art
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"<< Certainly, the Dutch are much more experienced
in dealing with industrial development, recovering value from the sea,
and handling the design and building of levees and dams.
>>


What a crock."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I somehow had a feeling that this tongue-in-cheek comment
would get a response.

The point behind the grin was that New Orleans could be rebuilt
and designed safely. The city did not grow in a vacuum and the
entire region - as well as the entire country - will benefit from
the rebuilding.

Howie52



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The point behind the grin was that New Orleans could be rebuilt
and designed safely. The city did not grow in a vacuum and the
entire region - as well as the entire country - will benefit from
the rebuilding. - Howey


Bulldoze the whole area and let it fill in with water. With global warming there will be more and stronger hurricanes. It's just a matter of time till another "big one" rolls in. - Art

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No. The government would not be liable for a sump pump failure.

Yet you think we are liable for the levee and sump pump failure in NO. How do you justify that?

In some circumstances they may qualify for a low-interest loan.

I think we could offer a low interst loan to those who wish to shoulder the cost for rebuilding NO.

I don't recall if a sump pump failure is covered by most home
owners insurance but I think it is. Memory serves me poorly
right now.


Couldn't NO buy insurance against their levee and sump pump failures?

"You're using emotional arguments. Those don't work on me. "

Economics are not generally considered emotional.
Neither are logistics or distribution issues.


You should try offering those kinds of arguments then. <g>

But, whether they are emotional arguments or whether you agree with them
do not cause me heartache.
Funding - in some form or other - is going to be provided through
congressional action.


I agree. I recommend buying out the landowners, breaking open the levees and letting the sea reclaim what it lost, especially if that's cheaper than rebuilding.

You dodged my question about whether the rebuilding should be decided based on rational and logical reasons. You dodged a lot of my questions. Do you believe that we just cannot tolerate any loss and must pay any price to rebuild?

"Much of the floodplains you describe in both the US and the Netherlands is dedicated to farmland"

I could be wrong on this but I seem to recall that the city of
Rotterdam is below sea level.


Does the city of Rotterdam maintain its own levees?

New Orleans is certainly not as valuable to the country as Rotterdam
is to the Netherlands.


We agree on that. As I mentioned, The Netherlands doesn't really have a choice.

Certainly, the Dutch are much more experienced
in dealing with industrial development, recovering value from the sea,
and handling the design and building of levees and dams.
Perhaps we could ask them for assistance.


We're still stuck on trying to decide whether we should rebuild. I doubt we need their assistance with that decison.

From the perspective of the federal government providing
assistance for the rebuilding of New Orleans - although this was not
the issue I was posting to support or oppose - I see no problem in
doing so and see great benefits for Lousiana, Mississippi, Alabama,
Texas ---- and for the whole country.


I don't see great benefits for the country or any other state for that matter. If Louisiana wants to rebuild it, I don't have a problem with that.

Personally, I have seen improvements in just about all rebuilding
projects which have been attempted, funded and completed.
Rebuilding brings in jobs - high and low-tech.
Priming the pump is a good thing to do ---- local, state, or federal
money will work wonders.


Still not a word about justification. Wherever those people go, they'll need housing. Why should NO be favored over all the other potential areas where housing is attainable at a much lower cost to us?

Howie52
I understand you will not agree.


I would be more than willing to agree, if you would only present sufficiently compelling arguments. Because you think we all should pay for it is not sufficiently compelling.

1HF
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The Dutch had their heyday in the 17th century.

We owe them much for the sophitication they brought to financial endeavors. Unfortunately for them, the "gumbo" under their country can't bear the weight of their society and they have to spend much of their GDP on maintenance.

1HF
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A small snowstorm in Art's neck of the woods would paralyze several states. The same storm in Buffalo would not even be noticed.

In Seattle several years ago, the day after Thanksgiving, I actually heard someone shout "OH NO! A SNOWFLAKE! CLOSE THE CITY!"

(He wasn't far off... the snow turned to an ice storm, and with an eighth of an inch of ice it took two days for the transit agency to finish hauling its buses out of ditches.)
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the snow turned to an ice storm, and with an eighth of an inch of ice it took two days for the transit agency to finish hauling its buses out of ditches
--------------------------------------------------™
People (especially smug northern people) don't realize how devastating an ice storm can be. Give me 8 inches of regular snow every time. Ice storms turn all the roads into skating rinks. It's not the nice packed down snow that the NE deals with.

arrete - I just stay home
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