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Author: Savagegrace Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 740879  
Subject: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 11:32 AM
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I haven't seen this one before and it's waaaay too good to pass up!

GS


Death of Common Sense

Today we mourn the passing of an old friend, by the name of Common Sense.
Common Sense lived a long life but died from heart failure early in the new
millennium. No one really knows how old he was since his birth records were
long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.  He selflessly devoted his life to
service in schools, hospitals, homes, factories and offices, helping
folks get jobs done without fanfare and foolishness. For decades, petty
rules, silly laws and frivolous lawsuits held no power over Common Sense.
He was credited with cultivating such valued lessons as to know when to
come in out of the rain, the early bird gets the worm, and life isn't
always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more
than you earn), reliable parenting strategies (the adults are in charge,
not the kids), and it's okay to come in second (or even last, as long as
your best efforts were given).

A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, and the
Technological Revolution, Common Sense survived cultural and educational
trends including body piercing, whole language and "new math." But his
health declined when he became infected with the
"If-it-only-helps-one-person-it's-worth-it" virus.

In recent decades his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of
overbearing regulations. He watched in pain as self-seeking lawyers ruled
good people.

His health rapidly deteriorated when schools endlessly implemented zero
tolerance policies, reports of six-year-old boys charged with sexual
harassment for kissing a classmate, a teen suspended for taking a swig of
mouthwash after lunch, and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly
student. It declined even further when schools had to get parental consent
to administer aspirin to a student but cannot inform the parent when the
female student is pregnant or wants an abortion.

Eventually, Common Sense lost his will to live as churches became
businesses, criminals received better treatment than victims, and federal
judges stuck their noses in everything from Boy Scouts to professional
sports.

Finally, a woman who was not smart enough to realize that coffee is hot,
and was awarded a huge payout for her stupidity, caused Common Sense to
finally throw in the towel.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents Truth and Trust; his
wife, Discretion, his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is
survived by two stepbrothers: My Rights and Ima Whiner.  Not many attended
his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
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Author: Jacketfan Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65346 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 12:44 PM
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Finally, a woman who was not smart enough to realize that coffee is hot, and was awarded a huge payout for her stupidity, caused Common Sense to finally throw in the towel.

Very good except for this part. Turns out the coffee was near boiling, way too hot for coffee to drink, so why serve it that way? Her injuries would have been much less had the coffee been at a reasonable temperature. And McDonald's had a history of similar complaints yet continued to serve their coffee boiling.

And the judgement was later reduced drastically to a much more reasonable level.

So, I think I'll forward the piece with the coffee lady part removed.

- Tom


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Author: galeno Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65347 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 12:46 PM
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Here's what "The Ayn Rand Lexicon: Objectivism from A to Z" has to say about Common Sense p. 77:

"Americans are the most reality-oriented people on earth. Their outstanding characteristic is the childhood form of reasoning: common sense. It's their only protection. But common sense is not enough where theoretical knowledge is required: it can make simple concrete-bond connections--it cannot integrate complex issues, or wide abstractions, or forcast the future."

My conclusion: reason and freedom are losing out big-time against the age-old scourges of man, i.e. faith and force. Common sense is no match for faith and force. If it's true that common sense is dead, then Americans and America are now TOTALLY defenseless and that's why we see America's steady march toward a right-wing totalitarian government.

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Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65348 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 1:15 PM
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My conclusion: reason and freedom are losing out big-time against the age-old scourges of man, i.e. faith and force. Common sense is no match for faith and force. If it's true that common sense is dead, then Americans and America are now TOTALLY defenseless and that's why we see America's steady march toward a right-wing totalitarian government.

This comic book view of the world -- radical anti-government libertarianism versus totalitarian state -- well, it doesn't bear much resemblance to reality. Americans may be overly inclined to wave the flag and the cross, but to conclude that a fascist state is just around the corner seems a stretch.

sydsydsyd

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Author: justpatrick Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65349 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 1:23 PM
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I wonder if my grandkids will be debating this particular incident.

Very good except for this part. Turns out the coffee was near boiling, way too hot for coffee to drink, so why serve it that way? Her injuries would have been much less had the coffee been at a reasonable temperature. And McDonald's had a history of similar complaints yet continued to serve their coffee boiling.


The easiest way to get the fewest complaints about coffee is to serve it hot, too hot for that matter. After all, what does almost anyone who gets a cup of coffee that is too hot do? Waste their time complaining? No, they wait for it to cool down.

Also, many customers buy the coffee and do not drink it right away. Having it really hot means it won't get cold by the time you are ready to drink it.

On the other hand, most people who get a cup of cold coffee are pretty unhappy. They will return it for a hot cup, and complain to the guy taking out the trash, cashier, manager or whoever else will listen.

Just as McDonalds conditioned the customers to order our Big Macs "as-is" the customers conditioned McDonalds to serve the coffee hot. :)

justpatrick




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Author: joelxwil Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65351 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 1:45 PM
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I don't think anything should ever be served so hot as to cause serious damage, which is what McDonalds did.

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65352 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 2:00 PM
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His health rapidly deteriorated when schools endlessly implemented zero tolerance policies, reports of six-year-old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, ...

I know this sounds stupid to you. I know it used to sound stupid to me. Then my boys started school. They are the ones who are harassed by the girls trying to kiss them. My poor 4 year old has tried to fake being sick so he could stay away from that bloody girl who chases him around the playground, day after day, kissing him when caught. How am I to teach them that no means no when they see this kind of behaviour tolerated no matter how often they say no?

I finally went to the teacher and told her that were we on the mainland this girl would be kicked out of school for sexual harassment. Aparently I wasn't the only parent to complain. She is now on a 12 step program, closely watched, and my child no longer pretends to be sick. Did that other school get carried away? Maybe, but maybe not. We don't know the whole story. These kids learn their habbits early. I sure as heck don't want my boys thinking this kind of behaviour is OK, nor do I want them to feel like they have to tolerate it.

InParadise

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Author: wvavenger Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65353 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 2:07 PM
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Finally, a woman who was not smart enough to realize that coffee is hot, and was awarded a huge payout for her stupidity, caused Common Sense to finally throw in the towel.

The woman was the 700th person to bring a claim against McDonald's for boiling hot coffee. McDonald's deliberately kept its coffee 55 degrees hotter than any other establishment because it only tasted good when warm -- if it cooled to quickly, it tasted like crap.

Common sense tells you coffee is cool enough to drink without causing third-degree burns. The McDonald's woman was surprised to get third-degree burns over 6% of her body, including her genitals.

A jury thought McDonald's conduct was outrageous, and awarded $2.7 million in punitive damages -- about what McDonalds made on coffee sales in two days. The judge reduced it to $480,000, calling McDonald's conduct "reckless, callous and willful."

http://www.atla.org/CJFacts/other/mcd.pdf

WVAvenger

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Author: microfood Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65354 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 2:51 PM
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Besides, didn't that woman also approach McD's about merely covering her medical costs (she was refused) before suing for the larger amount?

-A.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65362 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 4:53 PM
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His health rapidly deteriorated when schools endlessly implemented zero tolerance policies, reports of six-year-old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, ...

I know this sounds stupid to you. I know it used to sound stupid to me. Then my boys started school. They are the ones who are harassed by the girls trying to kiss them.


Actually, in this case the "story" is in error. The six-year-old boy was NOT charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate.

He was charged with sexual harassment because the classmates - plural - chased him down, caught him, held him, and kissed him. All available evidence and testimony said that the girls were the ones engaging in aggressive behavior, and yet the boy was the one charged.

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Author: throgsnk Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65364 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 6:16 PM
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Ralph Waldo Emerson said: "Common Sense is genius in its working clothes".

I believe that "common sense" is a long way from dead although it's not as "common" as it should be.

It's always easy to be pessimisstic, particularly when one's subjective view is superimposed, in absolute terms, on daily happenings. Things aren't as bad as the previous poster projects IMO.

Good luck to the INTC longs.

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Author: sykeMOL Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65368 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 7:14 PM
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The woman was the 700th person to bring a claim against McDonald's for boiling hot coffee. McDonald's deliberately kept its coffee 55 degrees hotter than any other establishment because it only tasted good when warm -- if it cooled to quickly, it tasted like crap.

It tastes like crap no matter what the temperature. I think their shakes might be less fit for human consumption, but you could make an argument either way.

McDonalds serves its coffee at about 180-185 degrees F. Check out some gourmet coffee websites and see what temperature they recommend. It's 180-185 degrees F. That's the temperature people expect coffee to be served at.

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Author: dgthepiper Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65370 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 8:17 PM
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Common sense tells you coffee is cool enough to drink without causing third-degree burns. The McDonald's woman was surprised to get third-degree burns over 6% of her body, including her genitals.

Common sense tells you not to carry coffee down there while driving.


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Author: imfelbi Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65372 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/23/2002 8:47 PM
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Today we mourn the passing of an old friend, by the name of Common Sense. Common Sense lived a long life but died from heart failure early in the new millennium. No one really knows how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

Savagegrace,

Common sense has been ill for millenniums since the emergence of ruling classes. Common sense has never been healthy since, only sporatically getting better every few hundred years. When it does, it would only last for a short time. That said, common sense is not dead. Its tenacity is stronger than you think, and it will not die as long as mankind exists.

Felbi.


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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65393 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 6:43 AM
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Galeno...then Americans and America are now TOTALLY defenseless and that's why we see America's steady march toward a right-wing totalitarian government.

Its strange to me that the far left swear we're marching straight for right wing totalitarianism, and the far right declares we're headed straight for a left wing liberalism hell.

Golfwaymore,
Marching to the lake to go fishing this morning



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Author: HarryA One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65423 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 12:59 PM
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I also thought this essay was very good until I neared the end of the piece. "Zero tolerance policies" also happen to be one of my pet peeves, since they encourage the exercise of zero IQ. Of course, most reasonable people recognize the stupidity of expelling a child whose mother packed a plastic butter knife with her school lunch, or expelling a child for possessing a two-inch long plastic key fob shaped like a pistol. However, lumping parental consent in with these other examples only serves to trivialize this highly emotional and complex issue and demonstrate contempt for the pro-choice positions held by a majority of Americans.

The next paragraph continues in this vein, albeit in a rather incoherent fashion. "Churches became business"? The best example I can think of is Pat Robertson's religio-commercial empire, but from the tone of the essay, I kinda wonder if he and his pals are really the object of the criticism. "Judges sticking their noses in professional sports?" Why is this even mentioned? After all, professional sports is a business and therefore subject to the same laws as most other commercial enterprises (except, of course, for baseball's anti-trust exemption). The one that really irks me though, is the mention of the Boy Scouts. I must assume the writer is berating the audacity of a federal judge even attempting to rule that BSA cannot practice institutional discrimination against gay and non-Christian children while continuing to accept taxpayer-funded subsidies.

It is my belief that the Supreme Court's siding with BSA on this was an abandonment of common sense in favor of "traditional values". These would of course be those same values that, until recently, held it was perfectly ok to discriminate against non-white and female citizens and deny them basic rights such as equal access to education, employment, and the vote.

Finally, other posters have addressed the McDonald's coffee scalding suit issue, and the facts of the case are briefly summarized here:
http://www.atlanet.org/cjfacts/other/mcdonald.ht

Regarding that entire paragraph about the "woman who was not smart enough to realize that coffee is hot," does anyone else recognize the absurd irony reflected in the latest McDonald's TV commercials? These are the ones that show the harried wage slave madly rushing through his morning routine (exaggerated by camera fast-motion), until he pulls into the McDonald's drive-thru for breakfast and everything instantly becomes serene (including camera slo-mo) as he blissfully sips his not-yet-cooled McCoffee, before he even pulls away from the window. Death of common sense in advertising perhaps, considering the 700+ lawsuits McDonald's has faced for injuries resulting from this practice.

Alas, what starts out as an entertaining and refreshing treatise on the uncommonness of common sense soon turns into a just another partisan political screed. Ultimately, it only appears to champion that special brand of common sense championed by so-called conservatives. This would be the kind that proposes if we just don't tell kids anything about sex, they'll never know it exists. But if they somehow find out about it anyway, all we have to do is tell them "don't have sex" and of course they won't. Therefore, there's absolutely no need to teach kids anything about birth control or STDs since they're all practicing abstinence…or at least they would be if it weren't for those evil, Communist, Macintosh-using, Godless liberals spilling the secret that there is such a thing as sex. (Same goes for drugs, too). Sigh.

-Harry


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Author: BobBluff Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65426 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 1:19 PM
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Harry, I thought your post was pretty well thought out as well, until the last paragraph where you attack so-called conservatives. Frankly, whether liberal or conservative, you can't lump us all together. Rather, I think, we probably represent a continuum.

Although, you could talk me into believing that anyone who uses a Mac is godless <grin>.

BB

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Author: wvavenger Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65433 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 3:59 PM
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Common sense tells you not to carry coffee down there while driving.

She wasn't driving -- that's one of the many parts of the legend people get wrong. She was a passenger, and the car wasn't moving.

Oops.

WVAvenger


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Author: Trenden One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65437 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 4:29 PM
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RE: I must assume the writer is berating the audacity of a federal judge even attempting to rule that BSA cannot practice institutional discrimination against gay and non-Christian children while continuing to accept taxpayer-funded subsidies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry, I can't let this pass. It seems to me that anyone who thinks it's wise to put gay men in tents with little boys is missing common sense. Besides, it's a private club so why do people feel inclined to tell them what their beliefs should be?? If you don't subscribe to the beliefs, don't join the club… or better yet, form your own.

T

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Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65438 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 4:39 PM
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-Sorry, I can't let this pass. It seems to me that anyone who thinks it's wise to put gay men in tents with little boys is missing common sense.

Don't some Boy Scout chapters let priests camp with little boys? Besides, the original poster was referring to the practice of banning gay or nonreligious children, which is in my opinion indefensible.

Besides, it's a private club so why do people feel inclined to tell them what their beliefs should be?? If you don't subscribe to the beliefs, don't join the club… or better yet, form your own.

By this reasoning, they should be allowed to discriminate against racial minorities too. I hate to break it to you, but that isn't allowed anymore.

sydsydsyd



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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65439 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 4:58 PM
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Sorry, I can't let this pass. It seems to me that anyone who thinks it's wise to put gay men in tents with little boys is missing common sense.

Why is this any different from putting them in with a "den mother"? Sexual preference for males would be the same be you a straight female or a gay man. There is a huge difference between sexual prefference and sexual perversion. Just because someone is gay doesn't mean they are going to force themselves on a child, just as a woman is most likely not going to force herself on a boy. Either way, who the heck knows.

InParadise,
Whose gay friends and straight women friends never showed a preference for young boys, but equal partners.

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Author: Trenden One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65440 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 5:00 PM
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<<Don't some Boy Scout chapters let priests camp with little boys?>>

Good point

<<the original poster was referring to the practice of banning gay or nonreligious children, which is in my opinion indefensible.>>

The Supreme Court case referred to was about a professed homosexual assistant scoutmaster. The Boy Scouts claimed its contradictory for a homosexual to teach little boys to be “morally straight”.

<<By this reasoning, they should be allowed to discriminate against racial minorities too. I hate to break it to you, but that isn't allowed anymore.>>

Actually, in a private non-profit club you CAN discriminate. For example, say I want to form a group of skinny balding men that meets at my house every Thursday night. I have the right to ban fat people or people with hair. Who are you to tell me whom I should include in MY club or what our “doctrine” should be? For the Boy Scouts homosexuality is immoral so it wouldn't make sense for the government to force them to hire homosexual leaders.


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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65441 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 5:08 PM
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T: Besides, it's a private club so why do people feel inclined to tell them what their beliefs should be??

It would be great if it really was a 'private club'. But this private club wants 'public' funds...subsidies, tax breaks, 'free' meeting places when other 'private' groups pay for the meeting facilities, listing as 'public' entity. It wants to be listed as a public charity, get funding through United Way, and others. It wants it both ways. Public assistance, private selection of who can 'join'.

But "T" was wrong. They discriminate on the basis of 'having' a belief. Doesn't matter which god or gods you want to grovel to, as long as you grovel to one or more, you can say the B.S. oath, and 'join' the private club. You could be a reformed druid, and that would work. Or a moonie. Or Jim Jones follower, hiding the Kool-Aid ready to use if the Feds come. Buddhist, baptists, follower of Moron(i), voodoo, doodoo, whatever...... no matter how weird, unusual, off beat, as long as you got' religion', you fit their profile.

They do discriminate against those who have chosen 'none', or who don't need Big Daddy, Junior, and the spook, Neptune, Pluto, Zeus, Athena, Odin, Mars, or other dieties.

Because it choses to discriminate, it must observe the rules of being a private entity. It still thinks its a public entity.





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Author: fietser Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65442 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 5:08 PM
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It seems to me that anyone who thinks it's wise to put gay men in tents with little boys is missing common sense.

..........
About as wise as putting straight men in tents with little girls?
But even then, wouldn't gay men BEHAVE themselves? But hey, we suppose that priests behave themselves, apparently they don't.

Fietser, who believes children have more to fear from parents and relatives than from gay boy scout leaders.

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Author: Trenden One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65443 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 5:34 PM
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<<There is a huge difference between sexual prefference and sexual perversion.>>

Really? I have gay friends too but can't we call a spade a spade?

Merriam-Webster Dictionary: perverted form; especially : an aberrant sexual practice especially when habitual and preferred to normal coitus

Still, your point about them not necessarily wanting to molest children is well taken. I was just thinking from a father's perspective. I think a lot of parents would be reluctant to send their little boys off to scout camp knowing the scoutmaster was gay. Partly out of fear and ignorance and partly because of a perceived immoral lifestyle. And that's the bigger issue; the Boy Scouts is a Christian organization founded on Christian beliefs and since most obviously believe homosexuality is wrong, as taught in the bible, why should they be forced to compromise the beliefs of their private club? Let someone else form the Rainbow Scouts if they want gay leaders teaching children.


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Author: jesever Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65444 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 6:20 PM
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Sorry, I can't let this pass. It seems to me that anyone who thinks it's wise to put gay men in tents with little boys is missing common sense. Besides, it's a private club so why do people feel inclined to tell them what their beliefs should be?? If you don't subscribe to the beliefs, don't join the club… or better yet, form your own.


Oh, puh-leeze. I can't let this pass.

There is a huge difference between being gay and being a pedophile. Your post essentially asserts that gays are pedophiles and this is simply ridiculous. Plenty of straight men, or straight-seeming men are pedophiles, and the assumption that gay scout leaders would be preying on children any more than straight scout leaders is goofy.

And even though the scouts are technically a private club, they benefit from public money because many troops hold meetings in schools and other locales funded in part by public money. And my money goes into that public money, and I feel fully justified in stating how my money is spent. And if the Scouts benefit in any way from my tax money, I think everyone should be welcome to participate, regardless of sexual preference.

This whole assumption that every gay or lesbian person is always constantly preying on straight members of their own sex, or children of their own sex, just infuriates me.

As a straight man or woman, do you automatically evaluate every person with whom you come into contact as a potential sex partner? Why would you think that every gay person automatically evaluates every person of their own sex as a potential sex partner? It's so ridculous and silly.

</rant>

Janet

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Author: Hyperborea Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65445 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 6:56 PM
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And that's the bigger issue; the Boy Scouts is a Christian organization founded on Christian beliefs and since most obviously believe homosexuality is wrong, as taught in the bible, why should they be forced to compromise the beliefs of their private club? Let someone else form the Rainbow Scouts if they want gay leaders teaching children.

Actually, the Boy Scouts were founded by Lord Baden-Powell as a form of outdoor woodsy training for the growing numbers of Britain's urban population. Why? So that they would be better prepared to become soldiers and go fight in the decidely less urban colonies (i.e. the Boer War). It is also quite probable that Baden-Powell was himself homosexual.

<quote>Tim Jeal, author of The Life of Lord Baden-Powell, argues, “The available evidence points inexorably to the conclusion that Baden-Powell was a repressed homosexual.” Information gleaned from Baden-Powell's diary and correspondence indicates that he often expressed enjoyment at watching young men swim naked; enjoyed pictures of nude men; expressed disdain for female nudity. Also cited is Baden-Powell's extremely close, decades-long friendship with Kenneth McLaren, with whom he served in the British Military and always made sure he bunked.</quote>
Hmmm, <quote> doesn't work so assume the above is in quoted style.


Also, note that it is the American branch of the Boy Scouts that is bigoted and intolerant. It is NOT all Boy Scouts organizations world-wide.

Hyperborea
a former Boy Scout

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Author: Hyperborea Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65446 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 7:17 PM
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the Boy Scouts is a Christian organization founded on Christian beliefs and since most obviously believe homosexuality is wrong, as taught in the bible

The bible also teaches that keeping slaves is cool too so shouldn't every boy scout be required to keep a slave? What about forbidding cripples to pray at the altar? Maybe boy scouts should be killing their younger siblings? ("Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." - Psalm 137:9)

It's a good thing that boy scouts aren't supposed to drink or maybe the scoutmasters would have to stone them ("And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die" (Deuteronomy 21:20-21))

If you're going to take one particular verse from Leviticus literally you should probably take the whole thing literally. Or are you picking and choosing which of those supposed "words of god" most fit your preconceived beliefs?

Hyperborea

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Author: Trenden One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65447 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 7:47 PM
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Hyperborea,

I have no idea if Lord Baden-Powell was gay but I think you helped support my point. Would you want your little boy to sleep in a tent with a man who, “often expressed enjoyment at watching young men swim naked; enjoyed pictures of nude men?” I sure as hell wouldn't.

As for your other points about the bible, it shows a lack of understanding. Perhaps we should switch boards (Christian Fools??) and I can help you put your quote in perspective. But let me just say here that the bible does NOT advocate slavery, being mean to cripples or killing your siblings. This may come as a shock to some...

T


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Author: Hyperborea Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65448 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 8:13 PM
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I have no idea if Lord Baden-Powell was gay but I think you helped support my point. Would you want your little boy to sleep in a tent with a man who, “often expressed enjoyment at watching young men swim naked; enjoyed pictures of nude men?” I sure as hell wouldn't.

But you have no problems with your sons joining the military organization that he founded?


But let me just say here that the bible does NOT advocate slavery

"Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids” (Leviticus 25:44).

Ok, so maybe only slaves who are not Christians.


being mean to cripples

"No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles." (Leviticus 21:18-20)

Ok, so the bible is even more specific than just generic "cripple".


This may come as a shock to some...

Particularly to those who don't read the book that they supposedly believe in.


Hyperborea

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65449 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 8:20 PM
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Once again, a poster just doesn't get it!!!!

Trenden: And that's the bigger issue; the Boy Scouts is a Christian organization founded on Christian beliefs

Gosh, so many seem caught up in their tiny xtian viewpoint of the entire world. It's a 3rd rate religion, percent wise, in the world. A far distant 3rd.

The Boy Scouts, by their own claim, is a non-denominational religious organization. It claims to have the 'broadest' base of religious support, encompassing muslims, jews, moonies, and, of course xtians.

Yes, the Jerry Falwells and Jimmy Swaggerts and other xtian 'loudmouths' make a big issue out of this, and just about every other form of bigotry and intolerance. Yes, the xtian right wing extremists have no problem trying to hijack the Boy Scouts to "their agenda" and propaganda.

If you want to read up on religious history of the Boy Scouts, try

<a ref="http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/517047.html" > B.S. history </a>

And as to slaves, golly, even the 10 or 9.5 commmandments talk about 'manservants and maidservants'.....and they were paid either....just go out and capture a few for the glory of god...kill all the able body men, turn the women and children into your slaves. Remember, they weren't grovelling to the same god, so it's absolutely justified. Enjoy. That's everywhere in the olde testament. Hundreds of pages of it. Then to to your sabbath day social and munch on the 'flesh and blood' of your fallen hero at communion. (at the altar, of course, where animal sacrifices are traditionally offered).
Isn't religion a whole lot of fun?

I don't recall Jerry or anyone else insisting we throw out the 10 commandments as well as all the other rules in Levitcus (about growing your beard, 'unclean women', how many sheep to kill each year for a scarifice and how to do it, how to bake bread, etc.







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Author: Trenden One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65450 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 8:41 PM
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Ok Hyperborea, I guess you really do want to get into it here. First of all, you can quote anything out of context to try to make a point. People that don't believe in the bible love to do that.

<<"Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids” (Leviticus 25:44). Ok, so maybe only slaves who are not Christians.>>

First lesson in Bible studies 101: There were no Christians when Leviticus was written. That's the OLD testament. The New Testament came much later and covers the life of Christ and His teaching and those of his apostles. I noticed none of your quotes were from the New Testament.

The Old Testament in many cases teaches a lower law: the Law of Moses. Remember when Moses went up the mountain, got some commandments and came down only to find the children of Israel worshipping a golden cow? What did he do with those commandments? He smashed them. Then he went up the hill again and got some more basic ones, i.e. the Ten Commandments.

The key: God doesn't change but the way he deals with people does because different societies differ and need different rules. In other words, the children of Israel in the Old Testament were not ready for the higher law.

When Christ came he taught a higher law. i.e. An eye for an eye vs. turn the other cheek. Another example is the Law of Moses, which forbid adultery. Christ forbid looking upon a women to lust after her. He taught a higher law. In Deuteronomy parents were taught to stone rebellious children but Christ taught the parable of the Prodigal Son. There are many other examples.

Oops, I've got to go because my wife is yelling at me to come upstairs. Let me just say that for you to sit there and take random quotes out of the bible out of context that on the surface sound offensive is either disingenuous or shows ignorance and certainly doesn't prove your point. You could do that with any good book.

T



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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65453 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 9:14 PM
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Trenden seems obsessed about 'new' vs 'old' bi-bull law. Out with the old, in with the new.

YOu mean that we can simply ignore the olde testament? Rules like in Numbers 31:17:18 "now trherefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill ever woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not know a man by lying with himn, keep aliveyour yourselves'?????

or those wonder Psalms......Psalms137:9 "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.".....

Hmmm...wanna explain those in 'context'?

Guess those commandments in the olde testament get thrown out along with all the other stuff? I don't remember seeing them mentioned in the second half of my bi-bull (that's two parts of bull)......and there were hundreds of commandments, not just ten. Out with the baby...oops, no, save the females....

Now all we have is the 'neo' rules like in order to follow me, you must hate your father and your brother...??????

Like Matthew 18:8.....Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee???

The 'neo' testament is filled with the same baloney. Just a sample:

If you are going to be all the the bible says you should be, you are in throuble. Do you really think that you can drive demons out of another person by laying on of the hands? Remember that mark 16:17 has junior himself saying "And thses signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast ouf devils, they shall speak with new tongues...they shall take up serpents: and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover"

I'll wager $100 that Trenden would not take 8 oz of cyanide to prove he is a believer....or he really really really believes the bi-bull. What say Trenden?

If you believe matthew 10:22 "And , ye shall be hated of
all men, for my name's sake". Huh? Ok, fall in line....


Now junior himself says "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"....Matthew15:24...so it doesn't apply if you aren't in the house of Israel (jewish)...too bad....and, by the way, those in the house of Israel don't believe it either!..... interesting paradox...those for whom it supposedly happened reject it? and the body cult embraces it, although it clearly doesn't apply? Is there insanity at work here?


It was a lot simpler when the bi=bill was in Latin, Ancient Hebrew, or Greek...and no one could read it but scholars, who spent tens of thousands of man years 'interpreting it'....now, people can read , but don't. They're afraid of what they'll find.

Trenden, have you ever actually read the 4 gospels, plus the others that didn't make it into the final edition? And compared how four people can tell 4 different stories and 4 sets of rules? with lots of contradictions and inconsistencies? Want to explain the wild rants of the last two chapters?

Ya know, just about 90% of Americans could sit down and write a decent guide of 'how to life a decent life'. I'm sure that there are 2% who could write CLEAR precise exact rules and examples, instead of the worlds weirdest collection of silly inconsistent, ranting and raving lunatic sheepherder tales.







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Author: fietser Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65455 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 9:38 PM
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While I've enjoyed the ranting pro/con bible so far and even recommended telegraph's posts (actually made him into one of my favourite fools) I think you guys are taking things a bit too far..

Telegraph, refuting christian's views is a futile approach. I'd suggest to end the argument.. otherwise this will become a christian vs atheist board. You know whose side I'm on but it's a pointless battle.

As most of the NLs is secular by now, I no longer need to fight to defend my right to be an atheist. yet, I live right in the Dutch bible belt where people don't vaccinate their children because they believe God will protect them.

I'm feeling the same about bike paths as you feel about religion.. People are made to believe that bike paths are good for cyclists. The Dutch tout that we are the cycling nation... Bah, humbug !
What we are instead is the country where they invented cyclist's apartheid. I am banned from most highways, not just motor ways but any highway. As a result I'm diverted to minor roads and get lost all the time, which absolutely killed my desire to save money & increase fitness by cycling to most destinations.. Instead I take a train, a bus or hitch-hike. Cycling in a utilitarian way (other than a signposted route which serves no other purpose than recreation) is simply too darn frustrating.

OK, I've mentioned my hobby horse, haven't I ;-).. we are getting waaaaay OT now.

Fietser

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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65459 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 10:10 PM
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Sorry, I can't let this pass. It seems to me that anyone who thinks it's wise to put gay men in tents with little boys is missing common sense.

Sorry, I can't let *this* pass. Pedophilia is vastly more common among married men with children than among gay men.

How do I know this? DH has done a lot of research on it, because he is a survivor of abuse. Guess who did a lot of it? His beloved father, the upstanding citizen, co-founder of an elementary school, poetry editor of the Washington Post, etc. My late FIL apparently abused each of his 11 children -- six boys, five girls. No, he wasn't gay. He was sick and disgusting.

I would cheerfully allow my 13-year-old son to spend a week alone with one of my gay friends. My son would be lots safer with him than with his late grandfather.

And for those who blame celibacy for pedophilia -- the two have nothing to do with each other. Pedophilia is just as common in Protestant, Jewish, and Muslim clergy as it is in Catholic clergy.

phantomdiver

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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65460 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 10:15 PM
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But hey, we suppose that priests behave themselves, apparently they don't.

Fietser, I know you're a proud atheist, but that should mean that you seek out facts, not hide from them. The facts are that pedophilia among priests is very, very low. Not low enough unless the incidence is zero -- but less than 1%. It is less than the incidence of pedophilia among married men with children, who are the classic pedophiles.

Fietser, who believes children have more to fear from parents and relatives than from gay boy scout leaders.

We are in complete agreement on this. It's a terrible thing, but most abuse comes at the hands of parents and relatives.

phantomdiver

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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65461 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 10:18 PM
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I think a lot of parents would be reluctant to send their little boys off to scout camp knowing the scoutmaster was gay.

Forty years ago, a lot of white parents would have been reluctant to send their little boys off to scout camp knowing that the scoutmaster was black. Fifty years ago, my in-laws routinely invited black kids to their (white) children's birthday parties. Amazing how many kids suddenly couldn't attend when their parents realized who else would be there.

Let someone else form the Rainbow Scouts if they want gay leaders teaching children.

It's already been done. I forget the URL, and I don't think it's called Rainbow Scouts, but the intent is the same. And it sounds like a great idea to me.

phantomdiver

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Author: dukeandduke Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65462 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 10:19 PM
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It would be great if it really was a 'private club'. But this private club wants 'public' funds...subsidies, tax breaks, 'free' meeting places when other 'private' groups pay for the meeting facilities, listing as 'public' entity. It wants to be listed as a public charity, get funding through United Way, and others. It wants it both ways. Public assistance, private selection of who can 'join'.

Gee, this sound like what Boeing wanted and got when they moved their "executive" headquarters to Chicago for those oh so valuable 500 jobs. (I wonder what the laid off rank and file would be told if they wanted "tax breaks" / "free" living quarters - likem they were a public entity).

Duke and Duke - The government gives to those who know best how to take.


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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65463 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/24/2002 11:24 PM
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Gee, this sound like what Boeing wanted and got when they moved their "executive" headquarters to Chicago for those oh so valuable 500 jobs. (I wonder what the laid off rank and file would be told if they wanted "tax breaks" / "free" living quarters - likem they were a public entity).


And that is what the gov't of Illinois came up with to 'lure' them to the Windy City, the blizzards, snow, etc.

texas didn't have a chance.

The Prez of the company owns a yacht. There isn't any place to compare to Lake Michigan around Dallas....

Now why would anyone want a blood sucking social institution in their town, one that pays no taxes...local, state, federal...one who sucks money out of the community, giving back little?? one who demands public services like water/sewer/garbage collection, fire and police protection, special favors to handle traffic (overtime?), special parking zones (they park, you can't), special exemptions, etc? Everyone elses taxes are higher (20%) to make up for the lack of taxes from these insidious, self perpetuating fantasy factories.

Sooner or later, people are really going to get fed up with paying lots of extra tax to support the guys in costumes.



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Author: Trenden One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65468 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 1:56 AM
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Wow, my comments caused a firestorm of political correctness. I'll take fiester's advice and let the “bi-bull” comments made by an angry telegraph go... but just one last post on the topic.

Telegraph said: “It would be great if it really was a 'private club'. But this private club wants 'public' funds...subsidies, tax breaks, 'free' meeting places when other 'private' groups pay for the meeting facilities, listing as 'public' entity. It wants to be listed as a public charity, get funding through United Way, and others.”

Well, our local symphony gets tax money and they still get to play Christmas music. I bet that irks you. Artists get endowments from the government and the government doesn't tell them they can only paint politically correct pictures. The United Way is a private organization and can support whomever they want and in some cases they have since chosen not to support the BSA. Churches are tax-exempt and the government doesn't dictate their doctrines or require that Catholics ordain women to the priesthood on the grounds of discrimination.

Anyway, in the Supreme Court ruling they said, “We are not, as we must not be, guided by our views of whether the Boy Scouts' teaching with respect to homosexual conduct are right or wrong. For the court majority applying a state public accommodations law to require the Boy Scouts to admit a gay troop leader violates the group's constitutional right of expressive association.” Makes sense to me.

As for myself, I'm not a “born again” Christian but I do find the Bible fascinating and feel inclined to defend it when it's mischaracterized and quoted out of context. I find it ironic that some people cry for tolerance as long as everyone agrees with his or her views. Disagree with me and I'll call you a bigot! Telegraph may not believe in religion or God or whatever but when he seeks to demean everyone that DOES believe in God he shows his own intolerance.

Personally, I just like studying all major religions. I've traveled around the world (Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Europe, South America, Thailand, Malaysia, Japan, Taiwan, etc) studying religion just out of curiosity because it has shaped the world for both good and bad. I personally don't subscribe to most of the beliefs but I always tried to show respect for them and most of all I tried to be tolerant. In Israel I respected and even participated in both Jewish and Muslim holidays and I formed both Jewish and Palestinian friends. You can learn a lot if you keep your mind open. Once I reach ER I hope to do a lot more traveling and learning. I get the impression from telegraph's posts that he got beat up by a Baptist bully as a child or perhaps a Mormon girl broke his heart.

As for the Boy Scouts, I was a member and went all the way through to Eagle Scout. Without it I would have never been exposed to a lot of good principles and ideas and I hate to see people that aren't part of it dictate its views. Yes, I'm sure sooner or later it will have to cave in and compromise its principles to conform to the political correctness of the day but I hope that doesn't happen before my boys get through it.

T


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Author: HarryA One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65469 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 4:17 AM
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I knew I shouldn't have thrown gasoline onto this thread just before I had to leave my office for a meeting! (Another good reason to RE). Fortunately, others have defended some of my points far better than I possibly could, but I do feel a need to jump in one more time regarding the Boy Scouts, so please forgive the length of this post.

To provide some perspective, let me preface by noting that I achieved the rank of Eagle Scout in 1977 with 42 merit badges, 25 of which were from the Eagle Required list. I was also an Order of the Arrow (Brotherhood) member and Assistant Scoutmaster, so I've had a lot of personal involvement with Scouting. I'm not gay (or a pedophile!), but I do happen to be Jewish, so I have some first-hand experience in what it's like being part of a minority and the subject of hatred and intolerance based purely on what--not who--I am.

I later spent several years working in the performing arts and music industry, so I've also had a lot of personal exposure to homosexuals (geez, that sounds awful but I don't know a better way to phrase it--sometimes stereotypes really are true). I can honestly say that I encountered many admirable people in both groups--and more than a few creeps, as well.

Based on everything I've read (in scientific, not religious literature) and my own conversations with gay acquaintances, I am nothing short of outraged that a very real problem--pedophilia--is being used as a convenient weapon to falsely demonize homosexuals, who are apparently one of America's last officially sanctioned targets of legalized discrimination in both the public and private sectors. Just look at the Catholic priest scandal-of-the-moment; our local paper recently published several letters to the editor arguing that "pedophile" is really just a liberal anti-Christian euphemism for "homosexual". This is the same kind of small-minded ignorance that led to post-9/11 beatings of innocent Sikhs by "patriotic vigilantes" who assumed they must be Muslim terrorist sympathizers because they wore turbans, had beards, and "looked foreign".

Similarly, it makes no sense to single out homosexuals in an attempt to exclude pedophiles from child-care roles. Sure, candidates for such positions of trust should be rigorously screened and background-checked, but the "gay test" wouldn't prevent a Mary Kay LeTourneau from being your son's grade school teacher, a Roman Polanski from being your daughter's acting coach, or a John Geoghan from being your children's spiritual leader. Nor could it prevent married-with-children, pillar-of-the-community, Joe Lunchbox from volunteering as your son's Scout leader purely for the opportunity to molest young boys. And as Phantomdiver correctly observes, he is statistically far more likely to be an actual threat to your children than is the typical homosexual.

I certainly don't regret the years I spent in Scouting and I gained a lot of valuable knowledge and experience. Unfortunately, some of it was through negative examples like the remarks offered by Trenden (who was kind enough to point out that his Bible teaches a "higher law" than my Torah). Let's offer a few tiny little editorial multiple-choice alternatives to illustrate what I mean about his comments:

"I think a lot of parents would be reluctant to send their little boys off to scout camp knowing the scoutmaster was [gay][ black]. Partly out of fear and ignorance and partly because of a perceived [immoral lifestyle][ violent criminal nature]. And that's the bigger issue; the Boy Scouts is a Christian organization founded on Christian beliefs and since most obviously believe [homosexuality][ mixing of the races] is wrong, as taught in the bible, why should they be forced to compromise the beliefs of their private club? Let someone else form the Rainbow [ Coalition] Scouts if they want [gay][ black] leaders teaching children."

Was the above a fair analogy? If indeed the BSA were a "private club" this wouldn't even be worthy of discussion. After all, as much as I despise the KKK, I have to recognize their right to refuse membership to blacks, Jews, Catholics, or whomever else they choose to hate, so long as American taxpayers do not unknowingly help to subsidize them. The fact is, however, that BSA is permitted to discriminate while holding out its hand for taxpayer support in the form of special access to public schools, land, and military facilities, as well as financial sponsorship by publicly funded groups.

I am saddened and disappointed that the Supreme Court's 5-4 decision in BSA v. Dale allows Scouting to have it both ways: a private organization when they want to discriminate, but public when it comes to accepting taxpayer support. I feel they should have been treated in the exact same manner as VMI and the Citadel. You want to exclude a segment of the population? Fine, just become private schools and you can accept or reject whomever you wish. You want taxpayer support? Fine…but you can no longer discriminate. That's my idea of common sense (in case anyone still remembers the original subject of this thread), and I expect that a future court will render a more enlightened decision on this issue.

Regards,
Harry
(Thanks, I feel much better now)


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Author: imthekidd Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65472 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 6:51 AM
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"She wasn't driving - that's one of the many parts of the legend people get wrong. She was a passenger, and the car wasn't moving."

She was STILL AN IDIOT to put a cup of hot coffee between her legs, an extremely stupid idiot at that!

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Author: friendlygirl Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65473 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 7:49 AM
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The BSA policy on homosexuals has little or nothing to do with pedophilia. That is the thought that of course initially jumps to mind when we hear that they do not allow homosexuals to be scout leaders, but that is not the main driving force.

A high percentage of Boy Scout troops are organized under the auspices of churches, particularly the Mormon church. Most of the growth in the BSA is happening through its relationship with the Mormon church.
See:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/mormon_boyscouts_gays.shtml
It obviously has a particular bent on the issue, but it does give some of the facts.



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Author: dukeandduke Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65477 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 9:59 AM
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Now why would anyone want a blood sucking social institution in their town, one that pays no taxes...local, state, federal...one who sucks money out of the community, giving back little?? one who demands public services like water/sewer/garbage collection, fire and police protection, special favors to handle traffic (overtime?), special parking zones (they park, you can't), special exemptions, etc? Everyone elses taxes are higher (20%) to make up for the lack of taxes from these insidious, self perpetuating fantasy factories.

Sooner or later, people are really going to get fed up with paying lots of extra tax to support the guys in costumes.


You must be talking about the Chicago Bears.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/lester_munson/news/2002/04/23/holding_court/

I really don't think Chicago spots $750 million on the church.

I think that telegraph and co. should cease this arguement. Telegraph hates religion. Fine.

People who like religion are not harming anyone. They freely give their time and / or money. Telegraph, you don't have to.

I personnally am not religious but I don't look down and ridicule those that do. People are just searching for answers as to why they are here and what life means. They might help support the church financially. You are NOT required to do so.

Telegraph and the like might pay a pyschiatrist $100's / hour to do the same (in the name of science). Or they may do something else.

Unless people MUST give to church, everyone is free to support or avoid said churches.

Science will never prove what created the universe or what existed prior to the universe. it is beyond human comprehension to understand an infinate time span. We will never know (with any certainty) who or what created life as we know it.

I suggest that people leave others to find their own answers and not be so critical.

Duke and Duke - Who knows that there are some things we will never know and can deal with it.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65478 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 10:06 AM
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Trenden: As to 'defending it', you might benefit from a lot of serious study. Like reading a SINGLE other contemporary book beside that 'one' book. If you read only one book on financial planning in your life, (say maybe a Kiyobashi book) and claimed to be an 'expert' on the subject, you would be laughed out of the room.

Now why should I not subject you to the same scrutiny when you claim to be an expert on a 'subject'?
___________________________________________________________________

Well, our local symphony gets tax money and they still get to play Christmas music.

And how many people are on their knees, grovelling while they play it? Lots of nice secular winter solstice music......Jingle Bells, Rudoph the Red Nose Reindeer, etc......... just because they play it at winter solstice time (typically around Dec 21-23) makes it nice.

I'll bet you don't have to take a religious oath to play in the symphony?????

Way back in high school, our principal decided we had to be subjected to Handel's "Messiah".....3 or 4 hours of "Hallelulahs".....I think that alone turned off 80% of students for religion for the rest of their life.....

Now I can get into classical music...or bluegrass.....or country...I just ignore the lyrics and listen to the music when the words don't make common sense.....

____________________________________________________________

The United Way is a private organization and can support whomever they want ,,,

Yes, and many companies chose to have 'one' charity based group solicit funds through payroll deductions than have 100 agencies pleading for employee time, complicating deductions, and the like. As such, it is frequently designated as the only option.

and in some cases they have since chosen not to support the BSA.

And it is because of the blantantly discriminatory actions of the BSA and their claim of 'private club' immunity. Plain and simple.

Churches are tax-exempt and the government doesn't dictate their doctrines or require that Catholics ordain women to the priesthood on the grounds of discrimination.

Churches are tax-exempt ONLY because the tax code exempts them. It could and SHOULD be changed. Churches are self perpetuating businesses and SHOULD pay their fair share of real estate, business, and income taxes. It is the people's choice to grant tax exemptions to these fantasy factories.

And yes, the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, including the choice of "NONE". Nothing says they gotta be tax exempt.
Please keep that in mind.

__________________________________________________________________

Telegraph may not believe in religion or God

You got that right. And if you think I am going to 'respect' your gods and god theories, you are absolutely wrong. I am going to laugh my head off at the silly idiotic rituals that many do without the least thought. Pointing out the cannibalistic ritual that so many take so seriously, as they eat the symbolic flesh and blood, really is fun.

Of course, I might watch you do your thing, and let you do your thing in peace and quiet, but don't expect me to sit back and subsidize it in any way (tax exemption, special favors or parking or police protection, etc). And don't expect me to have to follow special requests (blue laws) so you can 'observe' your rituals.

As to 'defending it', people might benefit from a lot of serious study. Like reading a SINGLE other contemporary book beside that 'one' book.

If you read only one book on financial planning in your life, (say maybe a Kiyobashi book) and claimed to be an 'expert' on the subject, you would be laughed out of the room.

. I get the impression from telegraph's posts that he got beat up by a Baptist bully as a child or perhaps a Mormon girl broke his heart. ,?i>

Nope....did live 11 years in Jerry Falwell's home town.....a town 30 years behind the rest of America in social development.....where every teenager was extremely anxious to move anywhere else as soon as they could. The Lynchburh "Dial-an-Atheist" phone number got 1000 times more calls than the 'Dial a Prayer" line. and, you gotta be kidding - telegraph date a 'religious' girl?? no way......

And no, I don't seek to 'demean' anyone who 'believes'. But that doesn't stop me from pointing out how ridiculous the acts they do are, and how silly the stuff in which they believe. And no, don't expect me to bow down, respect, pay for, subsidize any 'religion' or 'religious act'. Feel free to eat the flesh and drink the blood....just don't get upset if I tell you your are basically a cannabal, since that IS what you are. Fact. If you can't accept that, then you have the problem.

I'm sure not many would do the same to someone who insisted the earth was flat, and that the moon was made out of green cheese, the aliens were among us, and had landed all over in the past week, and quoted books and verses to prove his point (event he bi-bull claims a flat earth and fiery heavenly chariots). Just how long would you listen to someone claiming he had samples of the green chees from the mooon? Or had been abducted by UFOs? What credibility would you give them? Would you want your kids going on a camping trip with them???? <grin>






















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Author: dukeandduke Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65479 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 10:07 AM
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My brothers and I were boy scouts too. i think that organization does alot of good in the community.

For those of you unfamiliar with the boy scouts here is the oath that one says at troop meetings / events.

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

And here are the twelve ways a scout should act.

Scout Law
TRUSTWORTHY
A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.
LOYAL
A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.
HELPFUL
A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.
FRIENDLY
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.
COURTEOUS
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.
KIND
A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.
OBEDIENT
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.
CHEERFUL
A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
THRIFTY
A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
BRAVE
A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.
CLEAN
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.
REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.


Evil stuff :)

Duke and Duke - Who thinks if everyone lived by these tennants, the world would be a better place.


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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65480 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 10:07 AM
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I was just thinking from a father's perspective. I think a lot of parents would be reluctant to send their little boys off to scout camp knowing the scoutmaster was gay.

Heck, my boys have a hard enough time avoiding sexual harassment at school where there are lots of people, never mind off somewhere by themselves. As a general rule I don't expose them to situations where they might be with only one person, particularly when they couldn't talk. I put them in a pre-school with a one-room classroom and 3 adults, not in an at home day care with a mom.

I am very particular with whom they are alone, and it is a rare event. I just don't base my decision on gay or straight.

Ironically, my oldest is cub scout age now. The major reason he hasn't been signed up is the gay issue. I don't feel comfortable endorsing their discrimination by signing up my child. And BTW, the den is run by a bunch of women.

InParadise

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65482 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 10:13 AM
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FRIENDLY
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.

KIND
A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.

REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.


Seems to me that the BSA needs to reread their own laws. They've been violating a few of them.

InParadise

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65483 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 10:18 AM
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Duke and Duke: I personnally am not religious but I don't look down and ridicule those that do. People are just searching for answers as to why they are here and what life means. They might help support the church financially. You are NOT required to do so.

Then I take it you would have no problem if churches paid their fair share of taxes, starting tomorrow?

Since MOST people do not attend church regularly, why should we support them through tax exemptions?

More than 20% of ALL the real estate in Manhattan is owned by the church, and pays essentially NO real estate taxes.

Just how much land in your town is 'tax exempt'? Those prime spots downtown? On major intersections? Acres and acres that could be paying a hundred thousand a year in real estate taxes, so I and everyone else would pay less?

And just how much more are you and I paying in income taxes, because religious 'businesses' aren't paying any? All their 'profits' wind up 'donated', so there is no 'income' despite billion dollar businesses that compete unfairly against other businesses who DO pay taxes?

Try nearly 20%!.....now just think what you would do with a 20% tax cut!....



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Author: davidausa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65484 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 10:20 AM
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As a former boy scout, a former boy scout parent, an atheist, and the brother of a gay Eagle Scount, I'd like to weigh in with a few quick points. The problem with the current BSA philosophy is that it has substituted dogma for common sense.

Dogma is that no avowed homosexuals should be allowed to be BSA leaders. Common sense is that concerned, caring adults are an asset regardless of their sexual orientation and to protect against all types of perversions there should strict rules requiring such things as two or more adults to be present during all BSA events.

Dogma is that every scout must profess a belief in a higher power in order to remain in the scouts. Common sense is to teach values, but respect that fact that people (especially young people) are naturally inquisitive and skeptical -- qualities that should be nurtured, not repressed.

When my brother and I were boy scouts, common sense was the order of the day. When my sons were boy scouts, dogma from the upper echelons was being forced down to our troop where parents would have preferred common sense.

There's a lot I could say about the biological tendencies of the human animal towards dogmatic beliefs, the importance of education and how crucial all forms of tolerance are to the American character, but I'll just leave it at this: dogma (often expressed as simple formulas to categorize people as good or bad) is at the root of many of the world's problems.

--David

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Author: dukeandduke Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65485 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 10:26 AM
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I think that some posters at the fool should be more friendly, courteous, kind and cheerful.

This is my last post on this thread. Lets get back to retiring early.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65486 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 10:27 AM
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Duke and Duke:

REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.


Ah, the "DEMANDS" of the religious. - And the LORD commandeth "YOu shall respect religion"......

Why?

I don't respect people's belief in green cheese on the moon, people who give seminars on UFO abuctions, dial a 'all knowing' seer on an 900 number, who can't even tell who is calling until you tell them your name, flat earthers.......

Accept and treat the person civilly? Yes...... Accept and 'respect' their beliefs? No way.

Why is it that only the 'religious' of all the groups out there (UFOers, flat earthers', etc ) INSIST that you must 'respect' their 'beliefs'???

Now why, in a rational world, are you suggesting we have to 'respect' idiotic ideas? (the choice of what is idiotic is left up to the individual)




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Author: friendlygirl Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65488 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 10:49 AM
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Since MOST people do not attend church regularly, why should we support them through tax exemptions?

We live in a republic in which greater than 90% of people believe in God. While most people may not go to church (I assume you would extend this to synagogue, mosque, temple, etc.) regularly, most people seem to agree with the policy of maintaining tax exempt status for these institutions. Certainly, there is no groundswell of support or any real movement to get rid of this, and given the respected place of grumbling or fighting about taxes in this country, I don't imagine it is because you are the first person to think of the idea.

It seems obvious to me that we are not going to get rid of tax-exempt status any time soon, because most Americans support it. Get over it. This is not the forum for this discussion anyway.

Oh and while I would admit that I do not read the Bible (Torah, Talmud, or Mishnah) nearly as often as I would like, some of us have read many contemporary books on many spiritual and nonspiritual subjects, have intensely considered the options, and still end up being religious. I can't imagine managing to be a physicist and an athiest, myself.

FriendlyGirl

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65500 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 11:50 AM
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friendly girl: We live in a republic in which greater than 90% of people believe in God. While most people may not go to church (I assume you would extend this to synagogue, mosque, temple, etc.) regularly, most people seem to agree with the policy of maintaining tax exempt status for these institutions.


Sadly, more than half believe in UFOs, UFO abduction, Little Green Men, aliens, E.T., Wookies, too. Doesn't mean much, does it? Doesn't speak well of the education level or science ability of the average US citizen.

friendly girl: Get over it

And, back in 1780s, when the Constitution was written, most people "believed" in the bi-bulls approval of slavery and denying women the vote. So? That doesn't make it 'right' or fair. Back then, people said 'get over it' - you're a slave - tough. Can't vote - 'get over it'.......

You obviously have benefitted from the ability to vote and other women's rights, which were changed when some people decided to amend the Constitution.

As to tax exemptions - since there was no income tax until the 20th century, it has only been a 'short' time in the history of the country were religious businesses have been 'tax exempt' from federal taxes.

And that, too, can change.

And as you note, the majority of people do not go to church. If we convince those that they don't have to 'subsidize' that which they don't use, great. Just like it took 10 or 20 or 30 years for women to get the vote, once the movement started....just like it took nearly 100 years and a Civil War before slavery ended.

Most people don't realize the thousands and thousands of dollars in taxes they are paying to subsidize religion!!!!! if they did, they would be screaming bloody murder!!!!

It seems obvious to me that we are not going to get rid of tax-exempt status any time soon, because most Americans support it. Get over it. This is not the forum for this discussion anyway.a

Why? If everyone who retired early could see a 20% drop in their real estate tax, and in their federal taxes, you don't think they would be interested????? Taxes are the single biggest expense..with federal number 1, and real estate taxes number 2, in my budget. You bet I would love to see them drop by 20%. I'd bet a lot of others reading this board would like to see that too!

It seems obvious to me that we are not going to get rid of tax-exempt status any time soon, because most Americans support

Most Americans are unaware of how much money they are paying for something they don't use....and how 'browbeat' they are into 'respecting' the fantasy factories, rituals, and guys in costumes. Few are willing to speak out. Most people would rather 'submit' rather than ask, 'why the heck should I pay 2 or 3 or 4 thousand dollars a year in taxes to subsidize those guys??????

And as to 'going away' or 'getting over it', your neighborhood Atheist will keep pointing out the folly, and asking that churches pay their fair share of taxes, over and over and over and over again.



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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65513 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 2:08 PM
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<<Actually, the Boy Scouts were founded by Lord Baden-Powell as a form of outdoor woodsy training for the growing numbers of Britain's urban population. >>


The American Boy Scouts have three objectives for their program according to the Scoutmaster's Handbook:


1. inculcating good citizenship

2. Physical fitness]

3. Developing good character


Camping, hiking and other such things are merely the methods used to support and encourage the development of the three values above that are the foundation of Scouting.



<<Also, note that it is the American branch of the Boy Scouts that is bigoted and intolerant. >>



The Boy Scouts have their idea about what constitute good citizenship and good character. That political movements have come to attack the Scouts as being intolerant is truly amusing, and speaks volumes about those doing the attacking.


But, if the values of the Scouts don't appeal to some, they should find other activities in which to participate.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65514 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 2:15 PM
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<<the Boy Scouts is a Christian organization founded on Christian beliefs and since most obviously believe homosexuality is wrong, as taught in the bible

The bible also teaches that keeping slaves is cool too so shouldn't every boy scout be required to keep a slave? What about forbidding cripples to pray at the altar? Maybe boy scouts should be killing their younger siblings? ("Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." - Psalm 137:9)
>>


The Boy Scouts are not a Christian organization. Adult leaders and boys are required to have some kind of belief in a god as a condition of membership.


Frankly, I served as a Scoutmaster for several years and I'm an atheist. No one ever interrogated me about the details of my religious beliefs or non belief. If I had attacked the idea of religious belief, or the religious beliefs of boys, such as you do here, they probably would have done so, and for good reason.


Your comments above are an indication of why organizations like the Boy Scouts need a free hand to keep person with beliefs and values such as the ones you display above OUT of youth groups like the Boy Scouts.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: nas90skog Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65515 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 2:17 PM
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Telegraph,

A few weeks ago I was a simple apathetic agnostic. Somewhere along the line you started ratcheting up the antispiritual/religious rhetoric and have now been hammering people with it ever since. It bothers me not the least bit that you are an atheist, although I was tempted as a mental exercise, to go point for point with you. As I have learned over the past couple of years of reading your messages, you are not interested in a healthy debate. You have opinions that you want to sell at any cost. You routinely and aggressively resort to distortions, half truths, generalizations, overdramatizations and mischaracterizations to build your arguments. A strategy in the vein of "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with so much bu**shit that they give up the debate." You seem to consider that a win. One could spend all of one's time trying to address your contentions point by point, but fortunately most of us have more rewarding things to do with our lives.

It can't simply be about the taxes. You and I both know there wouldn't be a tax cut of 20% if religious subsidies were outlawed. That is a sensationalistic misrepresentation. Besides, you live alone and have a couple of million bucks plus in the bank. You are never going to run out of money. What's the big deal. I pay taxes for education even though it has gotten so bad around here IMO, that I also have to spend a fortune to send the kids to private school. I don't like it but I don't rant on a message board continuously.

No, it has to be something more than that for you. Maybe growing up in Falwell country has something to do with it. Anyway, I simply leave you with a couple of quick thoughts:

Does atheism require an overly aggressive inflammatory attitude and mean-spirited intolerance towards those who embrace other belief systems, or is that just a part of your personal practice?

Atheism denies the existence of God absolutely. That implies, no requires, that the practitioner must believe that he possesses all knowledge absolutely. In your personal experience, how does one evolve to this level of self importance?

Am I presenting the following fairly or am I taking a sound bite of a larger thesis and presenting it out of context as you routinely do?

"Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe--a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble.".............Albert Einstein

Were you to present your views in a cordial manner and then leave them on the table for people to consider would be fair. To abuse the REHP in an attempt to publicize your view through what is on the verge of "vitriolic spam", is not. To do it in the manner that you choose indicates that you have a greater agenda. I just don't feel your effort to elevate the human condition. All I feel is your effort to divide and degrade it. I have to be honest with you. The more I read your messages, the more I begin to wonder if the other side, that is the people who really understand spirituality and not the high profile abusers that you so frequently refer to and use as your basis for discrediting all religion/spirituality, might be on to something that I need to explore in greater depth. They seem to be sincere, caring, compassionate and tolerant people. You clearly are not.

And as to 'going away' or 'getting over it', your neighborhood Atheist will keep pointing out the folly, and asking that churches pay their fair share of taxes, over and over and over and over again.

Do we thank science or God for the "Ignore" button?

nas90skog
agnostic and nice :-)



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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65516 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 2:18 PM
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<<But you have no problems with your sons joining the military organization that he founded?

>>


The Boy Scouts is not a military organization. It's aims are to promote citizenship, fitness and good character.


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: dukeandduke Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65517 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 2:25 PM
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Telegraph is right -

If there was a God this thread would end :)

Duke and Duke - Move this to the Christian / Atheist boards.

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Author: Jacketfan Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65518 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 2:30 PM
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Atheism denies the existence of God absolutely. That implies, no requires, that the practitioner must believe that he possesses all knowledge absolutely. In your personal experience, how does one evolve to this level of self importance?

Cheap shot and incorrect. Atheism DOES NOT deny the existence of God absolutely. It denies the existence of God based on lack of evidence. You cannot prove a negative...nope, never, nada. But you CAN prove a positive, and to atheists way of thinking, that hasn't been done.

- Tom
Atheist and also nice


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Author: nas90skog Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65521 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 2:54 PM
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Atheism denies the existence of God absolutely. That implies, no requires, that the practitioner must believe that he possesses all knowledge absolutely. In your personal experience, how does one evolve to this level of self importance?

Cheap shot and incorrect. Atheism DOES NOT deny the existence of God absolutely. It denies the existence of God based on lack of evidence. You cannot prove a negative...nope, never, nada. But you CAN prove a positive, and to atheists way of thinking, that hasn't been done.

- Tom
Atheist and also nice


My apologies. It wasn't intended to be a cheap shot. It was a legitmate question using dictionary definitions from Webster among others.

atheism n. The belief that there is no God. [<GK, a- without + theos god]

My understanding is that agnosticism doubts the existence or knowability but considers the possibility.

"Criticism is our friend. It helps us find our failings" Ben Franklin

The intent of my original message was that there is a difference between offering an opinion and badgering people.

nas90skog
agnostic and nice




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Author: Hyperborea Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65523 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 3:16 PM
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In reference to the organization founded by Lord Baden-Powell: But you have no problems with your sons joining the military organization that he founded?
------
The Boy Scouts is not a military organization.



"Many early Boy Scouts of America uniforms were originally military issue" - Jamboree Today, 26 July 2001

"This was followed up by a letter published in the Eton College Chronicle on the 22nd December 1904 concerning a training scheme for Boys. Baden-Powell suggested that during the Christmas holiday each of the Eton Volunteers should bring together a small squad in their town or Village, read to them books about the Knights, and teach them:- (1) How to aim and shoot miniature rifles; (2) How to judge distance; (3) How to Scout; (4) How to drill and skirmish, take cover etc." - http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/sha/origins.htm

"Scouts participated in the field post operations of many armies during the Great War." - http://www.sossi.org/censor/censor.htm

And this link showing that the military training was not just the formative idea but is still present: http://www.propguys.com/htdocs/pages/fcrc/weapons1/

Hyperborea

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65526 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 3:23 PM
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Let's get a few facts right

nas90skog: Atheism denies the existence of God absolutely. .

Most 'believers' believe in only one of the 1500 'gods'. An atheist belives in none of the 1500 or so gods. Not much difference to me! You reject 1499. I reject 1500. Percentage wise, that is well under 1/10th of one percent difference. And no, the gods aren't interchangeable.

And, the problem for 'believers' is they have to 'hope' that the other 1499 ones they aren't grovelling to won't be mad.....maybe the council of gods takes a vote? better to worship 10 of them than just one? or none (no discrimination? ). That's a believer's dilemna, not mine.

That implies, no requires, that the practitioner must believe that he possesses all knowledge absolutely.

wrong on that count to..... atheists don't 'believe'...that implies 'faith'....and acceptance of the fantasies. And atheists are more than willing to say 'we don't have the answer to that yet'. We just don't need to 'make up' (ie, make-believe) and answer to explain it. The early humans made up explanations for lightning (Odin's hammer for one or Zeus throwing lightning bolts, killing someone or thing)...for floods or storms at sea(Neptune mad). Pele the volcano god....over a 1000 of them.

nas90skog: It can't simply be about the taxes. You and I both know there wouldn't be a tax cut of 20% if religious subsidies were outlawed. That is a sensationalistic misrepresentation........ What's the big deal.

And why can't it 'can't simply be'? Go check for yourself how much property in Manhattan is tax exempt. How about in your town? how much higher are your real estate taxes?

And I sure care how much I pay in taxes, and how much everyone else has to pay to support the fantasy factories.

nas90skog: Does atheism require an overly aggressive inflammatory attitude and mean-spirited intolerance towards those who embrace other belief systems?

Wrong take.....I sure feel it isn't being aggressive defending my rights to a choice of "NONE" and that includes who I have to subsidize with my taxes. As one poster suggested 'just deal with it'. Huh? That's what people told the slaves. That's what people told the women who couldn't vote. I'm sure the ones who fought hard to overcome the prejudice and correct the problem were seen as 'aggressive'. Heck, half the country and a half dead soldiers speak for the desire to defend slavery.

You also got it wrong on 'belief' systems. Atheists don't have to 'believe' in fantasies..... the common problems of believers is that they are so deluded into 'believing' that they can't image someone who doesn't 'have ' to have 'beliefs' in 'something'. So indoctrinated in the 'cult' that they can't imagine life without it. Oh well.

nas90skog: You have opinions that you want to sell at any cost. You routinely and aggressively resort to distortions, half truths, generalizations, overdramatizations and mischaracterizations to build your arguments

Care to give a couple of specific examples? which half truth? which 'distortion'? which 'mischaracterization'?

The more I read your messages, the more I begin to wonder if the other side, that is the people who really understand spirituality and not the high profile abusers that you so frequently refer to and use as your basis for discrediting all religion/spirituality, might be on to something that I need to explore in greater depth. They seem to be sincere, caring, compassionate and tolerant people.

Yep, there are lots of cults out there, recruiting members through 'love' and 'caring'. Nice social club. They have all the answers! Family got wiped out last week! It was god's will....not your fault....Lost your job.....god's will.....lost a million in the stock market on dot.coms...well, your prayer for guidance just wasn't answered..that was god's will..... as one pointed out 'get over it'.....

Now why should I subsidize your social club through tax exemptions?

And I'm supposed to not laugh at this comedy? Why?

The people who earnestly believe in UFOs are nice caring people too...and they would love you to join them.I laugh at their 'beliefs' too...... that doesn't make them 'right'. or entitled to my subsidation, either.

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Author: Jacketfan Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65528 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 3:29 PM
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And this link showing that the military training was not just the formative idea but is still present: http://www.propguys.com/htdocs/pages/fcrc/weapons1/

I must have missed the reference to Boy Scouts in that link. It was something called the "Military Explorers."

- Tom


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65530 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 3:38 PM
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<<"Many early Boy Scouts of America uniforms were originally military issue" - Jamboree Today, 26 July 2001

"This was followed up by a letter published in the Eton College Chronicle on the 22nd December 1904 concerning a training scheme for Boys. Baden-Powell suggested that during the Christmas holiday each of the Eton Volunteers should bring together a small squad in their town or Village, read to them books about the Knights, and teach them:- (1) How to aim and shoot miniature rifles; (2) How to judge distance; (3) How to Scout; (4) How to drill and skirmish, take cover etc." - http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/sha/origins.htm

"Scouts participated in the field post operations of many armies during the Great War." - http://www.sossi.org/censor/censor.htm
>>


Heh, heh! 1904 eh?

All this is quite a ridiculous stretch.


<<And this link showing that the military training was not just the formative idea but is still present: http://www.propguys.com/htdocs/pages/fcrc/weapons1/
>>


The Scout Explorer program is often organized around particular avocations and occupations. Explorer posts for those interested in becoming police officers is quite common, for example.

Explorer scouts have a minimum age of 15 or so, and are separate from the regular Boy Scout Program just as it is different from the Cub Scout program, and for the same reasons.


If some 15-21 year old is interested in joining an explorer post to acquire some experience in what a military career would be like, I think that's fine. And I would agree with you that in this limited respect, the Boy Scouts have a program that does something that could reasonably be called military training.



Seattle Pioneer




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Author: friendlygirl Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65533 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 3:43 PM
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Explorer scouts have a minimum age of 15 or so, and are separate from the regular Boy Scout Program just as it is different from
the Cub Scout program, and for the same reasons.


If some 15-21 year old is interested in joining an explorer post to acquire some experience in what a military career would be like, I
think that's fine. And I would agree with you that in this limited respect, the Boy Scouts have a program that does something that
could reasonably be called military training.


Of course the fact that girls can be Explorer Scouts is an indication that this branch has rather less direct connection to BSA....

FriendlyGirl
Former Explorer Scout, Lifetime Girl Scout, Gold Award Winner (<sigh>-- that's the equivalent of the Eagle Scout for those who don't know, i.e., everyone)

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Author: wvavenger Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65546 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 4:58 PM
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She was STILL AN IDIOT to put a cup of hot coffee between her legs. . .

Maybe so, and I'd bet the lawyer for McDonald's made just that argument to a jury of six citizens just like you.

They heard the evidence and didn't buy it. You haven't heard the evidence, so your opinion on the issue is suspect.

Since McDonald's didn't win in the courtroom, it -- along with the "tort reform" special interest groups -- is taking the battle to the newspapers. Legend always wins out over truth.

WVAvenger

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Author: SirTas Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65550 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 5:47 PM
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She was STILL AN IDIOT to put a cup of hot coffee between her legs, an extremely stupid idiot at that!

And add to that the fact that the McDonald's coffee was way hotter than coffee from other restaurants, and they had already received hundreds of complaints about the temperature of the coffee and yet did nothing.

I'd say she was an idiot to do business with them at all, much less put the coffee between her legs.

Of course, after the fact, it's extremely easy to say that she was indeed an idiot. I'm sure she herself felt like one when the coffee splilled and she had to go to the hospital for 8 days and then McDonald's refused to pay. At least she had her day in court... but she probably wishes she never went to McDonald's in the first place.

... Personally, I myself would never put a cup of hot coffee between my legs, and I would never go to McDonald's.

--SirTas




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Author: SirTas Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65551 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 5:56 PM
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People who like religion are not harming anyone.

???

Sure they do. They have a long hisory of it. Sometimes they do the harm right where they are, and sometimes they go out of their way to do it. Sometimes way out of their way. To speak of "liking religion" makes it sound like liking an ice cream flavor, but some of these people take their religion much more seriously than that.

--SirTas

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65554 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 6:21 PM
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<<People who like religion are not harming anyone.

???

Sure they do. They have a long hisory of it. Sometimes they do the harm right where they are, and sometimes they go out of their way to do it. Sometimes way out of their way. To speak of "liking religion" makes it sound like liking an ice cream flavor, but some of these people take their religion much more seriously than that.

--SirTas >>



My best guess is that atheistic and secular regimes killed more people in the 20th century than in all the religious wars around the world in the previous two thousand years.


While I'm an atheist, I think that the scale of slaughter done in the name of atheism and secularism far exceeds that done in the name of religion.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65557 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 6:27 PM
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SP: While I'm an atheist, I think that the scale of slaughter done in the name of atheism and secularism far exceeds that done in the name of religion.


Six million jews killed in WW2 alone? not significant?

millions killed in wars like the Crusades (backed by the church).....

the Taliban not fighting a religious war? Al Queda doing it just for the money? 4000 killed in WTC and not based upon religious fanaticism?

the conflict in Israel/Palestine not based upon religion/culture?

Those 'godless' commies - BUlgaria, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Yugoslavia, ALbania, Czechoslovakia, and more countries torn apart by religious strife. India....Pakistan....Phillipines.....

We must be reading different news magazines!!!!

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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 8:09 PM
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Some other poster: The Boy Scouts are not a Christian organization. Adult leaders and boys are required to have some kind of belief in a god as a condition of membership.
---
Hyperborea: The bible also teaches that keeping slaves is cool too so shouldn't every boy scout be required to keep a slave? What about forbidding cripples to pray at the altar? Maybe boy scouts should be killing their younger siblings? ("Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." - Psalm 137:9)
--------
Seattle:The Boy Scouts are not a Christian organization.

I never claimed that they were. Various posters to this thread claimed that the Boy Scouts are a Christian organization and because the bible apparently says that homosexuals are bad that they should be allowed to exclude them from their club. How did they prove that the bible says homosexuals were bad? They did so by using one bible verse quoted out of context. I merely pointed out a wide variety of other things that the bible says by quoting verses out of context. Which verses quoted out of context are correct depends entirely on the prejudices of the quoter.

Adult leaders and boys are required to have some kind of belief in a god as a condition of membership. Frankly, I served as a Scoutmaster for several years and I'm an atheist.

You don't find that hypocritical? "Hey it's ok if they discriminate against me because I snuck in anyways"?


No one ever interrogated me about the details of my religious beliefs or non belief. If I had attacked the idea of religious belief, or the religious beliefs of boys, such as you do here, they probably would have done so, and for good reason.

I definitely wasn't attacking anyone's religious belief. What I was attacking was the hypocrisy of certain religious fundamentalists who are hijacking a very worthwhile organization and doing so by selectively quoting from their own personal religious book out of context. This is also done to promote "segragation of the races", "beating your children", "women being barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen", and a whole host of other beliefs. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Your comments above are an indication of why organizations like the Boy Scouts need a free hand to keep person with beliefs and values such as the ones you display above OUT of youth groups like the Boy Scouts.

Exactly which comments? The ones suggesting that the Boy Scouts discriminating against some boys or adult helpers is wrong? Personally, I was a Cub Scout then a Boy Scout for quite a number of years. I was a senior patrol leader (I'm not sure of the American variation on that) and had a sash full of badges (made something sort of equivalent to the American eagle scout). I helped out for a number of years when I was still in my hometown as a kind of junior leader. What I remember most from scouting was tolerance and understanding of others beliefs.

Tolerance and understanding means just that but it doesn't mean letting those others use those beliefs to club others into submission just as the radical Christian right in the US is trying to do. If I remember correctly the American boy scout oath contains nothing that excludes homosexuals but it does contain the requirement that the scout be "morally straight". Well, isn't the "morally straight" requirement defined by the individual Scout's own religion and not by the religion of others?

Hyperborea

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65570 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/25/2002 10:58 PM
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There seems to be a big conflict here

First, a scout repeats an oath that requires him to do his duty to Gawd.

(and one poster said he was an atheist, so obviously could not 'comply' with this)

and at the same time, a Scout is 'truthful'as part of the same oath?

oh, big time hypocrisy. You can't be 'truthful' and say you 'believe' if you don't, no?

Telegraph, too was a Cub Scout and Boy Scout, and that was part of the process of learning how silly religion and religious 'dogma' was. I blabbered the gawd words, but they meant nothing. As time went on, the gawd theories meant less and less (as I learned more and more). Parents decided I 'had to have' some religious indoctrination....it didn't take, and in fact, taught me how silly the whole stuff was....here you had a building full of people, singing 300 year old songs....

And the contradictions.....you ask a question, like 'how old are you in 'heaven'?.....and never got an answer....or 'if a baby dies, and isn't potty trained, is he like that forever?'....or is there Pizza in heaven? and if so, who makes it? from what? and where does that come from? who maintains the sewer and electric system? is there anything else to do beside sing hymns all day, like watch new TV shows or ride a bike? sex? eating? exercise? cholesterol? haircuts? dentists? doctors? hospitals? skydiving? airplanes? travel? new things to see and do? books? magazines?

I've yet to receive an answer that describes what someone is going to do for the next million years, no less eternity, that they are so anxious to get to.......

The answer for all the questions was 'don't ask'.......gawd will provide all that you need....meanwhile, learn a few more bible verses to spout so you don't have to 'think'......

Well, even to a teenager, I really didn't get into having enternity of singing the same 100 hymns over and over and over again with the heavenly choir, and no one else would suggest an alternative.

Later, I learned to 'resent' any organization that dictated how it's members 'had' to think when it came to religion. Or 'how to think' when it came to just about anything.


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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 7:23 AM
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<<People who like religion are not harming anyone.

???

Sure they do. They have a long hisory of it. Sometimes they do the harm right where they are, and sometimes they go out of their way to do it. Sometimes way out of their way. To speak of "liking religion" makes it sound like liking an ice cream flavor, but some of these people take their religion much more seriously than that.

--SirTas >>



My best guess is that atheistic and secular regimes killed more people in the 20th century than in all the religious wars around the world in the previous two thousand years.

Suppose this guess is right. Again, I think it is absolutely false that people who like religion are not harming anyone.

As for me, I like vanilla ice cream.

--SirTas


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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65584 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 8:31 AM
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As a former boy scout, a former boy scout parent, an atheist, and the brother of a gay Eagle Scount, I'd like to weigh in with a few quick points. The problem with the current BSA philosophy is that it has substituted dogma for common sense.

I dont know man...I just dont know...lemme run this by ya.

I'm not gay, so I have no idea how a gay man "sees" people of his same sex, of any age. But, common sense would tell me that a gay man sees any other male, pretty much the same way that I see any other female.

It would seem just plain stupid to put me in a tent, in the middle of the wilderness, with a few 16 year old girls. It would seem equally stupid to me, to put a gay male in a tent in the wilderness, with a few 16 year old boys.

Does that make me a child molester? Of course not. It seems like an application of common sense to avoid a situation that could, or could be perceived to look bad, whether any foul play was involved or not.

Galeno likes the ladies (I take it). Galeno's not a child molester. How many here want their 16 year old daughters in a tent with Galeno, no matter how pure his intentions might be?

Golfwaymore


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65585 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 8:33 AM
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<<SP: While I'm an atheist, I think that the scale of slaughter done in the name of atheism and secularism far exceeds that done in the name of religion.


Six million jews killed in WW2 alone? not significant?

millions killed in wars like the Crusades (backed by the church).....
>>


Of course, the slaughters carried out by Naziism and Communism are properl;y laid to rest at the doorstep of atheism.


I'd like to see some documentation of your claims that "millions" were killed during the crusades ---the population base was far smaller than it is today, of course.




Seattle Pioneer

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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 8:59 AM
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<<Adult leaders and boys are required to have some kind of belief in a god as a condition of membership. Frankly, I served as a Scoutmaster for several years and I'm an atheist.

You don't find that hypocritical? "Hey it's ok if they discriminate against me because I snuck in anyways"?

>>


The scouts have certain social values which they wish to respect, for reasons that are both rational and reasonable. As a practical matter they don't even police those values rigorously, as a general rule.

If boys or adult leaders want to make an issue of their atheism or homosexuality, they will be excluded. If they wish to join the organization and not make an issue of their (our) beliefs, but accept the values Scouting espouses, it's unlikely anyone is going to go out of their way to make an issue of it.


So as a practical matter, 99% of the outrage by Scouting's opponents is synthetic and manufactured. As homosexuals point out with glee, homosexuals have always been in Scouting, and the same is true for atheists. As an atheist I have no objection to Scouting's religious test, even though I don't meet it and ignored it when joining the organization.


Frankly, there are tens of thousands of avowledly gay social groups around the country these days. They have their values and they publicly identify themselves as gay groups. This is no different than the Scouts choosing to identify themselves as a straight organization.

Homosexuals, as usual, want special rights to form organizations that promote their values, but want to attack those that disagree with them. But this is a diverse and multicultural country these days ---there is no reason that homosexuals shouldn't have to accept a little diversity of which they do not approve.



Seattle Pioneer

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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 9:31 AM
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<<First, a scout repeats an oath that requires him to do his duty to Gawd.

(and one poster said he was an atheist, so obviously could not 'comply' with this)

and at the same time, a Scout is 'truthful'as part of the same oath?
>>


Personally, I think there's a lot to be said for hypocrisy. For one thing, everyone fails to uphold a lot of decent values every day. I certainly fall short of being a perfect person every day, without fail.

A dose of hypocrisy has the advantage of allowing me to subscribe to and support high standards of behavior even though I know that I will fail to live up to those standards all the time. But in my view, it's a lot more important to have those high standards and admit you fail to achieve them than to water them down or lie and claim that you live up to them all the time.


So if you want to condemn me for being a hypocrite, help yourself. Of course, you are doing the same thing as those religious people you hate when you do so, and falling short of your own standards makes you a hypocrite too.




Seattle Pioneer


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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 9:44 AM
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Gwmore: Of course, the slaughters carried out by Naziism and Communism are properl;y laid to rest at the doorstep of atheism.


Surely you joke?

I'm sure the church, who sat passively by and never objected, and the tens of millions of 'white, christians' in Germany, who definitely discriminated ON THE BASIS of religion, might see it different. It wasn't the 'atheists' in Nazi germany that eliminated the religious/ethnic minorities. Why? To an atheist, one 'flavor' of religion is the same as another - equally faulted.

The Nazis first singled out the jews, then 'eliminated' them since they 'contaminated' the white ariyan christian 'culture' of Germany.

As to 'religious tolerance' try Afganistan (iimporting/peddlying bibles is offense punishable by death) or in Saudi Arabia (offense punishable by death)......so much for the claims of 'tolerance'.

And the Salem witch trials.....go out, identify a widow with assets, accuse her of 'witchcraft', then confiscate her property after doing away with her. Same all over Europe....Oh, what christian fun!.......and the Inquisition in Europe....surely one of the shining moments in religious history.....

Albania - ethnic cleansing (religion based).....Checzniya....same.....and the folks in Palestine/Israel whatever have been at it for 4000 years with no end in sight. India...Pakistan...Kurdistan....the list goes on and on......




More people have died in the name of religion than any other cause. Plain and simple.

I love the tune Beatle's tune "Imagine"...... 'no religion to die for'.....

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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 9:55 AM
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<<Does that make me a child molester? Of course not. It seems like an application of common sense to avoid a situation that could, or could be perceived to look bad, whether any foul play was involved or not.

Galeno likes the ladies (I take it). Galeno's not a child molester. How many here want their 16 year old daughters in a tent with Galeno, no matter how pure his intentions might be?

Golfwaymore
>>


I can tell you for sure that I would never have volunteered to be a youth leader in the Girl Scouts.


I recall one occasion when I was Scoutmaster when I was rough housing with one of the boys, and made a decision to stop because it was an invitation to having someone misinterpret my motives.

While I've pointed out that I'm not a religious person, I do strongly identify with that portion of the Lord's Prayer that says, "lead me not into temptation." I generally try to stay away from situations where I can be tempted, rather than imagining that I can surround myself with temptations and resist them.


So, I agree with you, Golf.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65599 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 10:01 AM
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. Of course, you are doing the same thing as those religious people you hate when you do so, and falling short of your own standards makes you a hypocrite too.

What some religious folks really seem to have a problem with is - atheists aren't in a 'self defense' mode to defend their incredibly silly beliefs in god theories.....they don't have 'beliefs' that require them to suspend all sense of reality and science knowledge....they don't have to memorizes dozens or hundreds of 'out of context' snippets. Or incredible tales of water deeper than Mt Everest, or someone managing to get two and only two of each baterium, bug, amoeba, snail, mosquito, fish, toad, dinosaur, raptor, snake, virus, fire ant, bird, mammal, reptile onto a wood boat, along with enough food. And of course, the next question a science minded person asks - what did you feed the animals who are predators for the entire journey?

As such, they don't have to 'hate' that which is not the same viewpoint as theirs......those that have to 'defend' that which they really have trouble in the first place accepting on 'faith' seem to have real problems and have to 'attack' any challenge to their 'beliefs'. That is the only way they can continue to rationalize their life.....they must be 'right' and everyone else 'wrong'.

Just about any atheist I know would welcome proof of 'supernatural' beings and phenomena....so far, no one has come up with any......other than, well, we have this situation, and the only 'explanation' is 'then a miracle occurred'. We can accept the fact we don't know the answer, and don't have to make one up.

Atheists don't 'hate' believers. They dislike having to 'subsidize' the religious rites of those who suck up public tax funds and subsidizes and tax breaks for private social clubs. They dislike and will strongly object to forced participation in religious exercises and grovelling (invocations, prayers, jingles on money, etc). They dislike having to comply with religious based rules (blue laws) that set aside time for the religious folly to be conducted.

And we sure aren't NOT going to point on the silliness and folly, and we sure aren't going to other to 'respect' the silly beliefs of flat earthers, UFO/little green men believers, or those with god theories.

Then again, maybe 50% of the respondents on the board have control of their lives?....which is why they are retired early? ......or maybe they haven't felt the need to cough up 10% of their income, and instead invested it, retiring 10 years earlier than the 'faithful' believers that donated generously to their local social club?







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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65600 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 10:02 AM
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Of course, the slaughters carried out by Naziism and Communism are properl;y laid to rest at the doorstep of atheism.

I have to question at least the first part of this.

Hitler was a Roman Catholic, altar boy, was baptized as an infant, and "confirmed" as a teenager. He made speeches at least as late as 1939 which professed belief in, and use of Christianity in Nazi ideology. High ranking Nazis throughout the party attended church and used Christian ideology in formenting Nazi propaganda.

http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html
http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/murphy_19_2.html

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.
Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him.


While he made a pact with the Pope to insure his consolidation of power of state over church, he did not "eliminate church", indeed, he used it adroitly to control the masses, turning both Lutheran and Catholic hatred of the Jews into his vituperative campaign to eliminate them.

I'd like to see some documentation of your claims that "millions" were killed during the crusades

I don't have an online cite, but in "A Distant Mirror" Barbara Tuchman chronicles town after town and city after city where the Jews were exterminated by townsfolk, flagelants, and Kings' soldiers (2,000 here, 1,500 there) as part of the Crusades (a part admittedly which is not often thought about, as the focus tends to me more on the travels to distant lands). Add in the actual combat over the 400 years or so, the slaves taken and the gigantic territories which changed hands again and again (Spain! Turkey! Northern Africa!) and "millions" doesn't seem a stretch.

I have seen figures from two to nine-million, although I can't locate them at the moment.

The pograms against the Jews became so bad and so hysterical that several Popes, who had formented the fury with their "Jews are Christ-killers" rhetoric were forced to issue Papal Bulls forbidding the continuing executions of Jews, since they performed services (credit!) which Christians were prohibited from providing.


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Author: davidausa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65601 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 10:16 AM
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Golfwaymore:

But, common sense would tell me that a gay man sees any other male, pretty much the same way that I see any other female. It would seem just plain stupid to put me in a tent, in the middle of the wilderness, with a few 16 year old girls. It would seem equally stupid to me, to put a gay male in a tent in the wilderness, with a few 16 year old boys.

Common sense is to avoid putting any adult in a position where he or she can take advantage of a juvenile. That is why, in all the Boy Scout troops and camps I've been involved with, no adults share tents with scouts (unless it's their own kid). Furthermore, there are always at least two adults present on all camping trips or events. Incidentally, this also allows moms to go camping with the boy scouts (our best scout master was a woman). This common sense approach protects both the child and adult; the child is protected from danger and the adult from false allegations.

Dogma is using prejudices to solve the problem. For example, "our kids will be safe if we exclude all homosexual males". Just like heterosexual females can be valuable leaders for boy scouts, homosexual males can be valuable leaders. Extending the prejudice against gay men to its logical extreme would require that only heterosexual males and lesbians are qualified to be boy scout leaders. Given the shortage of leadership role models, it is foolish to exclude one group of people simply because we're ignorant about "how they think". Furthermore, excluded people because of their proclaimed sexual preferences offers only illusionary protections; children won't be protected from adults who fail to disclose their sexual preferences and the various types of predatory adults who do not fit these sexual stereotypes.

--David

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Author: SirTas Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65616 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 2:13 PM
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Frankly, there are tens of thousands of avowledly gay social groups around the country these days. They have their values and they publicly identify themselves as gay groups. This is no different than the Scouts choosing to identify themselves as a straight organization.

Homosexuals, as usual, want special rights to form organizations that promote their values, but want to attack those that disagree with them. But this is a diverse and multicultural country these days ---there is no reason that homosexuals shouldn't have to accept a little diversity of which they do not approve.


Special rights??? Who has a federal charter dating back to 1916? (Hint: it's not a homosexual group. In fact it's not even a group that will accept homosexuals in its organization.)

--SirTas







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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65632 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 5:58 PM
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"Very good except for this part. Turns out the coffee was near boiling, way too hot for coffee to drink, so why serve it that way? Her injuries would have been much less had the coffee been at a reasonable temperature. And McDonald's had a history of similar complaints yet continued to serve their coffee boiling.

And the judgement was later reduced drastically to a much more reasonable level.

So, I think I'll forward the piece with the coffee lady part removed."

Thats right, damn it! What kind of country is this where a woman can't even pour coffee on herself without getting burned! What kind of corporation would serve HOT coffee- such insidious evil!

jb

...who is about to trim his hair with a lawn mower, then sue Briggs and Stratton for damages after I lop off half of my head....


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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 6:09 PM
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"A jury thought McDonald's conduct was outrageous, and awarded $2.7 million in punitive damages -- about what McDonalds made on coffee sales in two days. The judge reduced it to $480,000, calling McDonald's conduct "reckless, callous and willful."

http://www.atla.org/CJFacts/other/mcd.pdf

WVAvenger"

I'm shocked, shocked to find the AMERICAN TRIAL LAWYERS (www.atla.org) think this lawsuit was fair. Now there is an IMPARTIAL source of information, lol- the TRIAL LAWYERS who got RICH off this lawsuit.

About as impartial as asking Osama Bin Laden if the terrorism is a legitimate tool for "social change"....

jb


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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65634 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 6:13 PM
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"Finally, other posters have addressed the McDonald's coffee scalding suit issue, and the facts of the case are briefly summarized here:
http://www.atlanet.org/cjfacts/other/mcdonald.ht"

Oh look, still ANOTHER link to another American Trial Lawyers web site. More fair and impartial information, lol.

Gee, can you post a link to the KKK web site so we can get some equally fair and impartial "facts" about race relations?

jb



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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/26/2002 7:02 PM
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Of course, the slaughters carried out by Naziism and Communism are properl;y laid to rest at the doorstep of atheism.

I think could say that atheism was a subdoctrine of communism. Nazis however generally professed a belief in God. But no one was killed by these groups to make them atheists. They were killed because they weren't Nazis or communists.


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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 10:11 AM
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"Particularly to those who don't read the book that they supposedly believe in." - Hyperborea


New Testament Christians are no longer under the old law. That is why they can eat Pork and anything else they want. I seem to remember a New Testament scripture where a sheet comes down with all kinds "creepy" and "crawly" creatures on it and the Angels say to Peter "kill and eat". He replies "Oh NO Lord, my lips have never touched an unclean food." The Lord replies, "let No Man call Unclean what I have called clean." The New Testament Book of Hebrews states that when the new has come the old shall be done away with. It also states that the "Law" was but a shadow of what was come to pass. It says that a man's Will doesn't go into effect until he dies. My point is that New Testament Christians are not under the "Old" law; all the Old testament laws are over when Jesus died on the Cross. The whole point of Jesus coming was to teach Love and Forgiveness. I am just going to say one more thing; not everyone who is a Christian takes every thing in the bible litterally. I was raised Lutheran. Most Lutherans are quite liberal in their interpretation of the Bible. Many Lutherans that I went to Church with aren't even sure about the Virgin birth. What is important is the fellowship, love, family, that is fostered by being a part of a church. I am not a fanatic, but having a Church family is a good thing. When I was in College (the second time around) the Church that I attended was a tremedously good influence on me. One of the Deacons was a dairy farmer and I worked on his farm. I raised baby calves and helped milk. Most people only think of the "passing the plate" and giving money when they think of Church. The Church is not something that happens on Sunday morning. It is a family of people who care about it each other. I don't know about the Catholic Church; there isn't any scripture that commands a man to be celibate (although I don't think that is the problem - it's the fact that the priesthood is a convienent acceptable place for men who prefer not to marry to be accepted by society). Sometimes in my life one scripture will be meaningful to me and sometimes other scriptures will talk to me. I do know one thing; the purpose of the Jesus coming to this earth was to teach us to love one another; something were not very good at. Old testament scriptures are interesting; but I'm no longer under the old law so quoting them to me to try and condemn Christianity is pointless. - Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65661 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 10:14 AM
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"That's everywhere in the olde testament. Hundreds of pages of it."

New Testament Christians are no longer under the Old Testament. The whole book of Hebrews is about how when the New is come the old will be done away with. When a man dies his Will goes into effect. The Old testament is just that - OLD. - Art

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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 10:15 AM
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Old testament scriptures are interesting; but I'm no longer under the old law so quoting them to me to try and condemn Christianity is pointless. - Art

I would assume that includes the Ten Commandmrnts?

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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 10:40 AM
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"This is my last post on this thread. Lets get back to retiring early. " - dukeandduke

1. Save as much as you can.

2. Live frugally

3. Diversify your portfolio

4. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

5. If you aren't into "stock picking" invest in index funds.

6. Put as much as you can into IRA's or 401K's or any other tax deferred investments you are elegible for.

7. If you want to retire before you are 59 1/2 you can use 72(t)SEPP distributions to tap into your tax deferred funds.

8.You have to withdraw for at least five years or until you are 59 1/2, whichever is longer.

Okay, any more questions? - Art

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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 11:02 AM
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I guess it really doesn't matter whether you are a believer or non-believer as long as you are a good person. That means being forgiving, tolerant, and loving (wanting the best for everyone). But, if after you die you find you still exist I just want to suggest that you go towards the light! - Art


http://www.survivalscience.org/

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/index.html

http://www.beyondindigo.com/channels/topic.php/topic/33/

http://www.near-death.com/







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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 11:15 AM
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"Personally, I myself would never put a cup of hot coffee between my legs, and I would never go to McDonald's."

--SirTas


Bite your tongue! We own McDonald's stock and it has been very very good to us! - Art




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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 11:40 AM
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"I'd like to see some documentation of your claims that "millions" were killed during the crusades ---the population base was far smaller than it is today, of course." - Seattle Pioneer

I imagine quite a few of those Crusaders went "crusading" in order to get away from the Plague; which was busy wiping out 40% of the population of Europe. The truth is that it just wasn't so long ago that if you lived through childbirth you could look forward to stepping on a nail and dying from tetanus or getting tuberculosis and dying from consumption. Very few people were lucky enough to live long enough to die of Cancer and heart disease. From the day we're born we are bound to die. We will all face it; it is inevitable. I don't know why there is so much suffering in life. Perhaps it is like the child of wealthy parents; very seldom do they turn out to be non-selfish good people. Maybe we are here to learn to love and to learn forgiveness. Once we learn to be good people it is our time to die. From descriptions of the afterlife very few people want to come back. Check out some of these near death experiences. It is incredible. - Art


http://www.near-death.com/


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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 11:51 AM
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"And we sure aren't NOT going to point on the silliness and folly, and we sure aren't going to other to 'respect' the silly beliefs of flat earthers, UFO/little green men believers, or those with god theories."

I think this is called the "Straw Man" argument. Where you lump everything together even though that is not what we are talking about. Comparing a belief in a "Creator" to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I'm not a good debater but I can tell you that I do believe in life after death and a Creator; but I don't believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I'm not sure exactly what God is; I can't tell you what he/she looks like, although people who have had near death experiences have described meeting and talking to a being of light (perhaps the source of beliefs in angels?). - Art



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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 12:41 PM
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"Old testament scriptures are interesting; but I'm no longer under the old law so quoting them to me to try and condemn Christianity is pointless. - Art

I would assume that includes the Ten Commandmrnts? - ogrecat



Only those things that are repeated in the New Testament are important.
Jesus said, "The whole of the law can be boiled down into two basic commandments". . . "I leave with you a new commandment, that you love your neighbor as yourself." . . . "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." By the way, those people who murder and pillage are NOT Christians. No matter if you call yourself a Christian or not; it is how you follow Christ that counts. They obviously had never read the New Testament or understood it's message. - Art

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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 12:59 PM
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The difference between our arguments is that after we die, if I'm right, I will be able to say "I told you so!" But if the Atheists/non-believers are right they won't be able to say anything. We will just cease to exist and it won't matter much anyway. - Art

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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 2:35 PM
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Here is a link to a study published in "The Lancet" done by Dutch Cardiologists. It is really interesting. I just posted the first paragraph. A link to the whole article is at the end. - Art


Near Death Experiences and the Afterlife, OBE (Out of Body Experience)

Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands.

This study originally appeared in the pretigious British medical journal "The Lancet" (http://www.thelancet.com) The full text of this article is provided in Adobe PDF format here, For Personal Use Only. Included here with
author's permission. Contact The Lancet to for information on reprinting or utilizing elsewhere."


http://www.survivalscience.org/ndeobe.shtml

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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 4:37 PM
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ariechert: New Testament Christians are no longer under the Old Testament

Then, I guess you would agree that the 'commandments' of the olde testament no longer apply today either?? I don't recall them being in the 'neo' book. Did I miss something?

Hey, they can't have it both ways...either it doesn't apply totally, or not. You can't just say 'hey, I believe this verse and that verse, or not.

Surely when the superbeing gave Moses the 100 plus commandments, and said AND THEY APPLY FOR ALL TIME. Huh? and that was only , well, exactly, according to Jerry Falwell and 'neo's , a few thousand years ago? for all time is interesting 'short'????? huh????

either it was lying (and they really don't apply for all time"

or modern believers are deceiving themselves into 'selective' interpretation of the 'infallible' 'word'(s) of the superbeing.

If you are going to quote me where in the neo testament that it says 'ignore all of the old stuff', great..then we ignore it....totally. Or maybe it says well, ignore versus 3 and 6, but comply with 4 and 11???? hee hee....

help me out with specifics please......curious minds want to know....

It just happens to be more 'convenient' for the moderns to really not worry about having a beard, about casting out those with 'imperfections', about 'clean' and 'unclean' women and the restrictions on their socialization (and confinement), etc. so they simply 'ignore' that which they don't like, and blabber that which they do like.

Makes you wonder about the entire integrity of it all, doesn't it?

then why would you even bother to keep printing 'olde' parts of the book if they don't apply any more? Gosh, I suspect there aren't too many science text books around that have 20 pages on 'the flat earth', or 'how to find and identify witches in your town'? so now you tell me they are printing stuff that no longer applies? why?





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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 5:37 PM
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art: The difference between our arguments is that after we die, if I'm right, I will be able to say "I told you so!" But if the Atheists/non-believers are right they won't be able to say anything. We will just cease to exist and it won't matter much anyway. - Art

oh, the silly 'Pascal's Wager' proposition again.

again, wrong premise and incomplete. Only examines one possibility, and we all know the world is a lot more complicated than 'black and white'. Maybe for primitives of 10,000 years ago it had to be simple choice A or B. We are, as you noted, a lot more 'evolved'.. ho ho...


1) possibility one - there is something after death, and everyone is going there. everyone.....

result: everyone goes to heaven
atheists don't waste 10% of the lives, 10% of their money, and
run around 'afraind' of committing 'sins' or omitting things

outcome: tie...except it cost you a lot for nothing.
______________________________________________________________

2) possibility two - there is something after death, and there are 1500 gods. And they are pissed that you picked just one to grovel to. And they send you to the 'other place'. And they are pissed that you bothered them daily for silly things - they gave you a brain to think with, not to beg them daily for special favors. But the atheist didn't bother them, and didn't offend any of them. He gets to stay. You don't (and if we go back to the olde testament, which you just suggested doesn't apply, for a minute, Yahweh said "Thou shalt have NO other gods before me"....which obviously means other gods exist....and then he said "I am a jealous god"...... so we must assume the other 1500 are too..... not good for you

3) There is something, but it isn't superbeings and their 'kingdom'. Just a cosmic consciousness. Everyone arrives.

4) there is nothing.....you waste lots of time and effort...waiting for 'answers'...reading tea leaves....checking for 'bleeding ' statues and paintings..... or 'miracles'..... meanwhile, the rest of us are leading nice helpful friendly lives where we don't have to be so scared of immediate zapping by the gods, or punishment on a daily basis, or having half the country wiped out (or, if you are a real bible thumper, 'rapture' where your god destroys the world for his enjoyment).......

So, from my perspective, I got a 0 in 1500 chance of pissing off superbeings if they exist. You got a 1499/1500 chance of pissing them off...... my odds are infinitely better. And if nothing exists, I wasted no time....you wasted a lot preparing to die. And if something exists, the probability is that we both will get there. You just spent a lifetime preparing for something that doesn't exist. I didn't.





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Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/27/2002 5:58 PM
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They obviously had never read the New Testament or understood it's message.

I'm not sure you have either.

For example, do you follow the words of junior:

Matthew 6:5 "and when you prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues..... and at 6:6 but thou, whn thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou has shut thy door, pray to the Father which is in secret'.....huh???

That eliminates the argument for public prayer, if you FOLLOW what he says.....

And I haven't seen the response to Mark: They shall take up serpents: and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: and they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover".......

wanna try some cynanide to prove the point? I guess we wouldn't need poision control centers any more?????

or Matthew: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel". didn't know you were jewish.....his stuff doesn't apply otherwise....

obviously, it seems the xtians pick and choose what they believe and selectively 'ignore ' that which suspends belief, offends, or is just plain stupid silliness!!!!!

oh, some snakes and venom please for the true believers.......




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Author: golfwaymore Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 65727 of 740879
Subject: Re: OT..Obituary.... Date: 4/28/2002 9:28 PM
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Old testament scriptures are interesting; but I'm no longer under the old law so quoting them to me to try and condemn Christianity is pointless. - Art

ogrecat...I would assume that includes the Ten Commandmrnts?

I believe Art and I have similar religious beliefs so I'll take a stab at it. My answer to your question would be "yes and no"...<grin>

Most Christians believe that down through time, there have been two basic ways to "get to heaven"....either by "faith" or by "works".

Most Christians believe that from the beginning of time, to the crucifixion of Christ, one entered heaven based on "works", or their life as compared to the prescribed laws, including the Ten Commandments. So there really weren't even any "Christians" in the Old Testament time (pre-Christ), only folks living (or not) according to the laws as best they could.

Most Christians believe that after the Christ's death, burial, and resurection, the promise of "salvation" or (in other words) getting to heaven was accomplished purely by "faith" or the belief that such an event did indeed happen.

Most Christians believe that this "faith" is validated by a personal committment, at some point in one's life, where they pledge to try to live according to the teachings of Christ as recorded in the New Testament. They may screw up from time to time, but their "faith" extends to them forgiveness from God of their shortcomings. This is why Art said that he is not "bound by the old law", and indeed, New Testament scripture says that we are not.

Most Christians believe that while they are not bound by the old law, the Old Testament still has ample application to their faith, as it demonstrates prophecy of old, fulfilled much later on in the New Testament. For that reason on it's own, I believe most Christians still study the Old Testament, just like they do the New Testament.

But an even simpler answer to your questions would be... in Christ's life and teachings as recorded in the New Testament, he "reaffirmed" every single one of the Ten Commandments with no alterations. So anyone professing to be a Christian willing to "throw out" the Ten Commandments as good rules to live by, would be in effect, throwing out their own beliefs at the same time.

This is simply an explanation, based on what most Christians believe, to each his own. I just felt that your point/question was only fair, if you allowed for a fair explanation as well.

Golfwaymore










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