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Author: spl241 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1976649  
Subject: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 8:27 AM
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(Thanks to Cynthia Tucker, who won the 2007 Pulitzer for commentary. She is a visiting prof at the U. of Georgia.) Also, thanks, Dianne Feinstein, for a valiant attempt at banning assault weapons. I only wish your straight thinking would have prevailed.

The political climate has changed since the 1994 ban: Democrats have cowered before the gun lobby; the NRA has grown even more extreme and SCOTUS has moved much further to the right. In the 20 years since Congress banned assault-type weapons and high-capacity magazines, Americans have heard a steady drumbeat of pro-firearms rhetoric that fetishizes the 2nd Amendment. In other words, the climate around firearms has gotten crazier.

Before the debate over more stringent laws even began, most observers knew it would be difficult for Congress to grow a backbone and stand up to the gun lobby. So it's no shock that Majority Leader Reid--sensing the votes weren't there--was forced to run from the specter of the NRA and slam the door on Ms. Feinstein's effort to re-up the assault-weapons ban.

Why not reinstate the 1994-2004 ban? Is it because it was far from perfect? Well, it was, and here's why. It prohibited the sale of certain types of assault weapons and magazines. It covered only new weapons, while the old ones were grandfathered. The "grandfathers" were still available to the nefarious, the unhinged, and the impulse-challenged. Also, the original ban still allowed easy modifications that let gun manufacturers basically clone the outlawed weapons. So yes, the original ban under Clinton really was a Band-Aid in some ways. But law enforcement across the nation supported it for the simple fact that it helped. It didn't end violence or mass murders or prevent suicides (which account for 2/3 of gun deaths). But it prevented SOME killings. What's not worthwhile about that?

So for 10 years, were anyone's rights trampled? Was the 2nd Amendment compromised? Couldn't hunters still hunt? Couldn't homes still be protected? Couldn't skills be honed on gun ranges and skeet shooters improve marksmanship in closely-supervised gun clubs? The civilized world didn't end during those years.

So apparently once again, the deranged NRA leadership has persuaded Congress that an assault-weapons ban is tantamount to Gestapo tactics. More important, it has persuaded key numbers of Dems that it can end their $175K/yr. political careers if they don't continue as their water boys.

32 at VA Tech; 6 at Tucson; 26 at Newtown; and 12 at Aurora = 76 dead innocents. And in Ms. Tucker's words.....

If dead innocents -- their bodies ripped apart by bullets from an assault weapon--couldn't persuade Congress to ban at least some of those firearms and the high-capacity magazines that feed them, the cause is lost. So is our common sense.

http://news.yahoo.com/national-gun-fever-shows-no-sign-break...
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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867001 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 9:33 AM
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Here's the problem progressives don't seem to get. THe gun lobby is only as strong as the votes it can muster. Gun nuts will vote the goun issue exclusively. On the other hand there is virtually no vote in elections for gun control. The gun lobby's power comes from being able to deliver the vote.

Obama just made the point. If Americans want change they have to vote change.

The same holds true for reproductive rights.

We can rant all we want on progressive issues. If we don't get the vote we're playin' with our puddin'.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867003 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 9:41 AM
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Before the debate over more stringent laws even began, most observers knew it would be difficult for Congress to grow a backbone and stand up to the gun lobby

It is not their job to "grow a backbone" or take sides, it is constitutional interpretation (does the case follow the laws in the Constitution)

“individual rights”

Use'm or Lose'm

Bears

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867017 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 10:46 AM
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Obama failed at gun control too.

Add that one to the list.

Presidential Leadership.....absent again.

JediG

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867018 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 10:49 AM
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Obama failed at gun control too.

Add that one to the list.

Presidential Leadership.....absent again.

(In the Bush years, blaming opposition in Congress was met with "Buck stops with President)

So, use the death of innocents once again for your political ends.

But, Obama failed again on gun control.

He's too busy kissing Israeli butt and provoking North Korea and Iran into war.

JediG

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867039 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 12:15 PM
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We can rant all we want on progressive issues. If we don't get the vote we're playin' with our puddin'.

Progressives can't even get anyone to vote for. Who was the last progressive to run for office? How many cycles ago? I'm thinking maybe the 90s, but perhaps I'm overlooking someone. As pointed out up-thread, the "liberal" Obama isn't even a liberal. He's a slightly right-of-center moderate. (Pretty much like me, actually.)

Bill Maher made a comment about this (gun legislation). There is something wrong when upwards of 90% of the population wants background checks, but can't get them passed into law. (I don't know where Maher got that 90% number, but that was the number he used.)

Frankly, the assault weapon ban was 80% "feel good" policy. Ditto the magazine size issue. Not that either bother me (i.e. go ahead and ban them, can't hurt!). But don't kid yourself that they would have made any real difference to the problem of firearm violence and crazy people getting guns.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867041 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 12:27 PM
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Damn, that's some funny stuff

Progressives can't even get anyone to vote for. Who was the last progressive to run for office? How many cycles ago? I'm thinking maybe the 90s, but perhaps I'm overlooking someone. As pointed out up-thread, the "liberal" Obama isn't even a liberal. He's a slightly right-of-center moderate. (Pretty much like me, actually.)

IT is funny, all the right of center folks that think ACA and all the environmental nonsense and the there is not enough spending, and the let's go roast the rich, and the corporations and evil, doctors greedily perform unneeded operations for the cash, etc agree with you, all right of center. Actually it is likely true on a regular political scale fascists are considered right of center. But here we typically talk of socialism as left regardless of how close to fascism

Bill Maher made a comment about this (gun legislation). There is something wrong when upwards of 90% of the population wants background checks, but can't get them passed into law. (I don't know where Maher got that 90% number, but that was the number he used.)


I am pretty sure he got it from a really stupidly worded question that gave a false answer like most polls that are incongruous with the actions of politicians knowing their butts will get kicked out of office if they act like they are real.


Frankly, the assault weapon ban was 80% "feel good" policy. Ditto the magazine size issue. Not that either bother me (i.e. go ahead and ban them, can't hurt!). But don't kid yourself that they would have made any real difference to the problem of firearm violence and crazy people getting guns.

Yep, do stuff, no matter how stupid, well because. Do not kid yourself, you are not right of center unless you are at a commondreams.org cconvention

You should branch out and read something other than severely left wing blogs, you are not even remotely close to center and it ain't to the right that you are tipping over.

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867046 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 1:00 PM
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bears says

"Before the debate over more stringent laws even began, most observers knew it would be difficult for Congress to grow a backbone and stand up to the gun lobby"

It is not their job to "grow a backbone" or take sides, it is constitutional interpretation (does the case follow the laws in the Constitution)

That would be the Supreme Court, not Congress.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867049 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 1:06 PM
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Thank you

Correct

Bears

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867057 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 1:43 PM
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You should branch out and read something other than severely left wing blogs, ...

That may be part of your problem right there. I don't rely on blogs of any sort for my information. A blog is just the ramblings of some random guy (or girl). And they're usually as inane as your posts are.

And you think I'm "left" because you've never seen "left". There aren't many such people anymore. I was a Goldwater Republican, and I haven't moved very far from there. If you think Goldwater was a leftist, then you must be somewhere right of Attila the Hun.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867067 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 2:08 PM
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"And you think I'm "left" because you've never seen "left". There aren't many such people anymore. I was a Goldwater Republican, and I haven't moved very far from there. If you think Goldwater was a leftist, then you must be somewhere right of Attila the Hun."

Barry Goldwater would be shunned by the Republican party of today. Of course, he'd be horrified that they call themselves Republicans, and would not want to be a party member.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867092 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 3:58 PM
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Barry Goldwater would be shunned by the Republican party of today. Of course, he'd be horrified that they call themselves Republicans, and would not want to be a party member.

Absolutely. He even foresaw it.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater

I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?
And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."
Speech in the US Senate (16 September 1981)


And this one:
Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.
Said in November 1994, as quoted in John Dean, Conservatives Without Conscience (2006)


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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867123 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 6:08 PM
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"Absolutely. He even foresaw it."

Great quotes, thank you for those. Barry was one of the good guys. Prescient, as well!

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867162 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/23/2013 10:53 PM
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Barry was one of the good guys.

I agree. He's why I registered Republican when I was old enough to vote. I didn't agree with him about everything, but you always knew where he stood on something, and he (mostly) had common sense and understood the need to compromise.

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867328 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/25/2013 9:10 AM
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Progressives can't even get anyone to vote for. Who was the last progressive to run for office?

Bernie Sanders for one.

Teabaggers were real unhappy with their representation. So the Teabaggers took over the Republican Party in many states. They actually went to the state party conventions. Guess what. They've got the Republican establishment scared witless over being "primaried".

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867376 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/25/2013 1:19 PM
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Bernie Sanders for one.

I was thinking POTUS, but fair enough. He is one of the few. I think Elizabeth Warren is also (though, as she's not in my state I don't know very about her).

So the Teabaggers took over the Republican Party in many states. They actually went to the state party conventions. Guess what. They've got the Republican establishment scared witless over being "primaried".

Yeah, the Treason Party had/has massive corporate lobby backing (Koch brothers most notably, but there are others). They hired professional organizers to put together the rallies and get some cohesion. Not aware of any similar entity that could pull together something like that for progressives.

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Author: jah609 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867390 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/25/2013 2:35 PM
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<<<<Yeah, the Treason Party had/has massive corporate lobby backing (Koch brothers most notably, but there are others). They hired professional organizers to put together the rallies and get some cohesion. Not aware of any similar entity that could pull together something like that for progressives>>>>

You've got to be kidding! You taught us how it is done and you're still better at it.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1867392 of 1976649
Subject: Re: Our National Fever Will Contine Date: 3/25/2013 2:41 PM
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<<<<Yeah, the Treason Party had/has massive corporate lobby backing (Koch brothers most notably, but there are others). They hired professional organizers to put together the rallies and get some cohesion. Not aware of any similar entity that could pull together something like that for progressives>>>>

You've got to be kidding! You taught us how it is done and you're still better at it.
___________________________

You try to convince yourself that there are some touch points with reality for certain folks, but clearly that is not so.

But, at the end of day, there is always something to be grateful for. There but for the grace of not being lobotomized goes I

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