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Author: RhodieTed One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 753930  
Subject: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 6:03 AM
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Now let me get this straight.........

It is perfectly ok for US corporations to outsource jobs to India or wherever in order to save money, but.......

It is not ok for the general public to purchase their drugs from Canada or wherever in order to save money, hmmmmm.

rhodie
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Author: jtmitch Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 164936 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 7:59 AM
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It is perfectly ok for US corporations to outsource jobs to India or wherever in order to save money, but.......

It is not ok for the general public to purchase their drugs from Canada or wherever in order to save money, hmmmmm.


Good point. Here's another one. The reason we can't purchase drugs from Canada is not because it will take profit from the drug companies. It's because the drug companies and the government are so concerned for our safety and drugs crossing an international boundary could be hazardous to our health. Yet..... an awful lot of the drugs we consume in this country are actually manufactured in foreign countries. Ireland and Israel are two of the countries were a lot of our drugs originate.

jtmitch


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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 164956 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 9:47 AM
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It is not ok for the general public to purchase their drugs from Canada or wherever in order to save money, hmmmmm. -- rhodie

It depends on whether you value the new drug pipeline. If you make it unprofitable to develop new drugs, new drugs won't be developed.

Mobile stend


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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 164962 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 10:09 AM
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an awful lot of the drugs we consume in this country are actually manufactured in foreign countries.

http://www.krak.dk/scripts/danishexporters/economy.asp?landekode=GB

Accordingly, the pharmaceutical sector has been a strong player in the global competitive environment, and has experienced tremendous growth during the past decade. Of the more than 400 different pharmaceutical products manufactured by Danish companies the most important are insulin, antibiotics and psychotropics. One Danish company supplies around 50% of the global insulin market.

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Author: cevera1 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 164971 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 11:51 AM
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It depends on whether you value the new drug pipeline. If you make it unprofitable to develop new drugs, new drugs won't be developed.

just curious. Are you saying that a protectionist stance for Drug companies is OK, while a protectionist stance for american jobs is not?

cliff



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Author: jtmitch Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 164973 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 11:56 AM
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It depends on whether you value the new drug pipeline. If you make it unprofitable to develop new drugs, new drugs won't be developed.

Two points:

- I suspect drug companies are not losing money on the drugs they sell in Canada. Otherwise they would pull out of the market.

- Is it the responsibility of the American drug consumer to underwrite research and development for new drugs that benefit not only Americans but the whole world?

jtmitch

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 164979 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 12:25 PM
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It depends on whether you value the new drug pipeline. If you make it unprofitable to develop new drugs, new drugs won't be developed.

Two points:

- I suspect drug companies are not losing money on the drugs they sell in Canada. Otherwise they would pull out of the market.

- Is it the responsibility of the American drug consumer to underwrite research and development for new drugs that benefit not only Americans but the whole world?

jtmitch


And the drug companies, like any other companies, don't need profits anyway. They only need to pay the bills. Profits are just "nice to haves". It has the effect of a tax that drives up the cost of things, and keeps wages lower than necessary. Adam Smith made note of this.
To the extent "capitalists" whine of profits they tip their hand. It seems to be more about class warfare. "Either I get the profits I think I'm entitled to, or I'll see to it that you don't get what you need"


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Author: 2old4bs Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 164982 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 12:42 PM
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It depends on whether you value the new drug pipeline. If you make it unprofitable to develop new drugs, new drugs won't be developed.

New drugs can still be developed if all consumers share the cost of the R&D--why should Americans shoulder almost all the burden, since everyone gains?

Could it be that we're shouldering the burden because outside the U.S. the pharmys have to compete pricewise (heaven forbid), but here in the U.S. they can charge whatever they darn please?

(And maybe it wouldn't hurt those pharmy CEOs/executives to take some compensation reductions either)

2old



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Author: jtmitch Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 164988 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 1:03 PM
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And the drug companies, like any other companies, don't need profits anyway. They only need to pay the bills. Profits are just "nice to haves". It has the effect of a tax that drives up the cost of things, and keeps wages lower than necessary. Adam Smith made note of this.
To the extent "capitalists" whine of profits they tip their hand. It seems to be more about class warfare. "Either I get the profits I think I'm entitled to, or I'll see to it that you don't get what you need"


I guess I'm not sure whether you are serious or are saying the above with your tongue firmly planted in your cheek. Are you suggesting that companies in private industry should merely try to cover their expenses and don't need profits? While I don't think Americans should subsidize drug R&D for the rest of the world, I would certainly not want the profit motive removed from industry, pharma or otherwise. Wasn't there a place called the USSR that tried this approach?

jtmitch

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 164989 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 1:08 PM
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Could it be that we're shouldering the burden because outside the U.S. the pharmys have to compete pricewise (heaven forbid), but here in the U.S. they can charge whatever they darn please?

(And maybe it wouldn't hurt those pharmy CEOs/executives to take some compensation reductions either)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The pharmys sell their product at the prices other countries want to pay for it. The US subsidizes the world getting cheap drugs because their gov'ts set it. Drug co's compete here, if you don't want viagra you can buy cialis, if you don't want lipitor you can get some other cholesterol drug.

I'm kinda interested to see what will happen when and if they allow us to buy drugs from other countries.

2828

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 164991 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 1:17 PM
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<<It is not ok for the general public to purchase their drugs from Canada or wherever in order to save money, hmmmmm.

rhodie

>>


Democrats have begun a national campaign to outsource pharmacy services? I thought they wanted to preserve well paid middle class jobs.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165010 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 2:02 PM
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I guess I'm not sure whether you are serious or are saying the above with your tongue firmly planted in your cheek. Are you suggesting that companies in private industry should merely try to cover their expenses and don't need profits? While I don't think Americans should subsidize drug R&D for the rest of the world, I would certainly not want the profit motive removed from industry, pharma or otherwise. Wasn't there a place called the USSR that tried this approach?

jtmitch


I didn't say anything about profit motives or the removal thereof. That is a separate issue. Conclusion: You cannot ever remove the profit motive. It's as natural as skin. They didn't kill the profit motive in the USSR either btw. They just had a bad model.

"Merely" try to cover expenses? Hmm, In a capitalist environment of perfect knowlede and perfect freedom optimal competition wopuld force profit margins to near zero anyway. Sort of Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages for the "Having Class". Besides excess profit (Adam Smith's words) is an indication of lack of trickle down which is what certain "capitalists" think Capitalism is based on. What's "too much"? The amount they'd have without any government handouts? How many people can reasonably afford their stuff assuming society has determined that their stuff is an essential item? (Adam Smith's notion of "necessaries"). In any event it isn't what the purveyor insists is a required or necessary level of profit. It's what he can come by honestly. Not simply what he can come by. It that's the case I'd buy shares in the Mafia.


Was I being tongue in cheek? Sort of. "Over the Top" I guess is what they call it. Hey, I like making money for nothing. I think everybody should! I've been reasonably successful at it. THAT'S what rich people do. (With greater success due mostly to luck and Big Goverment but of course they never admit that part) For them it's achievment or capitalism or whatever they tell themsleves.

But don't get out your crayons and color me by the numbers. Many (Ok, all!) of the people here who think I am some sort of "F'ing Socialist" based on my postings (and that's probably everybody) would be shocked, simply shocked, to hear some of my other positions. I just don't worship at any particular church and buy the dogma "because". What passes for capitalism or history among the Right Wing or Libertarian crowd is simply nonsense and I ain't falling for it.

Profits are not a right. Business and the Economy itself, exist as instruments of the larger society, at the behest of society, as a means to serve that society. Society does not exist as a means to provide profits for businesses or families with family fortunes. All the institutions of a society exist to benefit society, not the other way around. When they are deemed to have stepped out of bounds or become counterproductive, as determined by that society, it is society's unlimited Right, to paraphrase Jim Madison,: 'alter or to abolish them'.


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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165014 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 2:03 PM
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If you make it unprofitable to develop new drugs, new drugs won't be developed.

I could go with that argument if so many drug companies weren't spending millions now on advertising budgets.

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165016 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 2:07 PM
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Democrats have begun a national campaign to outsource pharmacy services? I thought they wanted to preserve well paid middle class jobs.

Have you met any American-born pharmacists lately?

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Author: IndecisiveFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165018 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 2:10 PM
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And maybe it wouldn't hurt those pharmy CEOs/executives to take some compensation reductions either

Yeah it would.

IF
married to a pharmy exec

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165020 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 2:18 PM
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"If you make it unprofitable to develop new drugs, new drugs won't be developed.

I could go with that argument if so many drug companies weren't spending millions now on advertising budgets. "


If you don't sell the new drugs, new drugs won't be developped.


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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165025 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 2:27 PM
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{{I could go with that argument if so many drug companies weren't spending millions now on advertising budgets. }}


How does that automatically follow? Does the advertising increase sales? If spending $1 in advertising results in $1.50 of profit, wouldn't it make sense to advertise? I have no idea if it does or not, but without that information, your conslusion makes no sense.


c

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165026 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 2:28 PM
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{{Have you met any American-born pharmacists lately? }}


Yes. My wife is training to be a pharmacist right now and all of her industry extern trainers have been Americans.


c

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165059 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 3:45 PM
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- I suspect drug companies are not losing money on the drugs they sell in Canada. Otherwise they would pull out of the market.

- Is it the responsibility of the American drug consumer to underwrite research and development for new drugs that benefit not only Americans but the whole world?


I have read that Canada's policy is simply to steal drugs if our companies refuse to sell them at prices set by their gov't. Not rob the pills from the factories, but violate patent and produce them themselves up north. Every US drug sold in Canada requires information to be filed that would permit them to so. They've got our drug companies over a barrel.

The drug companies are not losing money by selling in Canada because they are recouping their expenses selling at better prices in the US. The money from Canadian sales are made after expenses have been met.

France once had a thriving pharma industry before they went and communized it. Now they have practically none. The US and Switzerland are the only countries left developing new drugs in significant amounts--every other place has price-controlled themselves out of that business.

Buying drugs from Canada is simply importing price controls from another country. If we do enough of it we will join France as a non-player in the advancement of health.

--fleg


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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165149 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 8:16 PM
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just curious. Are you saying that a protectionist stance for Drug companies is OK, while a protectionist stance for american jobs is not? -- cliff

No, I'm saying a protectionist stance for the new drug pipeline is okay. If we can do that without protecting drug companies, that would be fine by me.

Contextual E. Modify


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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165150 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 8:20 PM
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Two points:

- I suspect drug companies are not losing money on the drugs they sell in Canada. Otherwise they would pull out of the market.


Correct. Once the drug is developed and we pay the R&D costs, they can manufacturer and sell in Canada at a profit.

- Is it the responsibility of the American drug consumer to underwrite research and development for new drugs that benefit not only Americans but the whole world?

jtmitch


No, but neither is it the responsibility of the drug companies to provide new drugs. They do it for a profit. We do it to get new drugs. If we can find a way to get other countries to share the load, that would be fine by me.

Shipping M. Philharmonics


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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165152 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 8:28 PM
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New drugs can still be developed if all consumers share the cost of the R&D

Agreed.

--why should Americans shoulder almost all the burden, since everyone gains?

Because if we didn't, we would have to wait for all the socialist societies to crumble (or force them to capitulate) before we could get new drugs.

Could it be that we're shouldering the burden because outside the U.S. the pharmys have to compete pricewise (heaven forbid), but here in the U.S. they can charge whatever they darn please?

No, it's because the other countries negotiate prices with the drug companies under threat of violating their new drug patents.

(And maybe it wouldn't hurt those pharmy CEOs/executives to take some compensation reductions either) -- 2old

Nationalizing the drug companies would be one of the quickest ways to minimize R&D. Demonizing them doesn't help either.

Sequestration H. Troposphere


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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165153 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 8:32 PM
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I could go with that argument if so many drug companies weren't spending millions now on advertising budgets. -- MaestroCindi

They're spending millions on advertising? They're sepending billions on R&D. They're probably spending billions on advertising, too. They would do neither if it didn't generate profit.

Substantial O. Publishing


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Author: 1HappyFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 165157 of 753930
Subject: Re: Outsourcing ? Date: 4/23/2004 8:51 PM
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I'm kinda interested to see what will happen when and if they allow us to buy drugs from other countries. -- 2828

The other countries will all come to their senses and start paying much more for their drugs so that the new drug pipeline won't collapse. Then Slim Whitman will start yodeling and their heads will explode.

Freezer U. Pressing


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