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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 441133  
Subject: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 10:51 AM
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From your post in Kazim's "wedding" thread...

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=28058782

It is even scarier to realize that despite my very best efforts, I cannot dismiss the possiblity that there is no God. Unless something changes about my belief, I am either going to hell or I have been completely wrong about my core beliefs for my entire life, causing me to build my life and my relationships with friends and family on false assumptions. Neither outcome is all that positive, frankly.


Atheists that come from religious backgrounds did not follow the easy path, to be certain.

I salute you for your frank and forthcoming disclosure.

For what it's worth, I'll offer you this from my own experience ... I stopped believing in hell long before I gave up a firm belief in a sentient God. To a certain extent, I retain a "spirituality" in that I sometimes imagine the existence of a binding force that links everything in the universe; not just all living things ... everything. When I am pressed to acknowledge the idea of God (saying the Pledge of Allegiance, for example) this is the thing to which I refer in my mind. In this manner, I'm not constantly making myself uncomfortable with my own lack of belief. I just believe ... differently.

Being a free thinker does not mean giving up your beliefs. In large part, you're already there - you "cannot dismiss the possiblity that there is no God". That's all there is to it - opening your mind to the possibility.

Another aspect of freeing your mind from the constraints of religion is losing your sense of dogmatic obligation. You've taken some important steps in this regard by recognizing the fallacy of YEC; now free yourself from the suffocating notion that your willingness to question makes you a bad person destined for hell. "Hell," as I see it, is no more than a human construct; a metaphor for the human condition of mental torment, self-doubt, and indecision. We are all susceptible to such torment, if we allow ourselves to be.

Above all, losing your core belief does not have to mean giving up the community that you have built up for yourself around the foundation of religion. It just requires translating a literal understanding of the doctrine into a more figurative one, and recognizing that others still mired in hard-line religious belief have yet to evolve their thinking to a more enlightened state. We were not "created" to be rigid thinkers; we are hard-wired to explore the universe of which we are a part.

I hope that helps.

MV
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Author: Grumpybiker Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321536 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 12:54 PM
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When I am pressed to acknowledge the idea of God (saying the Pledge of Allegiance, for example)

As Commander of a DAV Chapter and active in two other veterans organizations, as well as always attending town board meetings, I am often involved with the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance.

I just never pronounce the under God part.

Regards,

Grumpy

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321539 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 1:35 PM
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I just never pronounce the under God part.

Regards,

Grumpy

I usually recall the Realist Magazine cartoon.

http://www.ep.tc/realist/48/26.html

(bottom of page 26)

Count Uptoten

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Author: RogerSkeptic Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321540 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 1:37 PM
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What's with the name changing, Cliff ?

Roger

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Author: VUCommodore Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321541 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 1:38 PM
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Thanks for the thoughtful post. Still think there is a long way between the following thoughts which you seem to conflate:

(1) "you "cannot dismiss the possiblity that there is no God". That's all there is to it - opening your mind to the possibility."

(2) "still mired in hard-line religious belief have yet to evolve their thinking to a more enlightened state"


Your message is very helpful though, thanks.

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321543 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 1:43 PM
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What's with the name changing, Cliff ?

Roger

You know how it is, Mr. going2win. Boredom?

Three markers for anyone who can correctly identify the source of my name.

Count Uptoten

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321544 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 1:54 PM
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Three markers for anyone who can correctly identify the source of my name.

Sesame Street?

6

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321563 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 3:24 PM
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Three markers for anyone who can correctly identify the source of my name.

Sesame Street?



that would be my guess.


-b
.... "BigBirdPoop" might be more accurate <g>

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321569 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 4:00 PM
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Being a free thinker does not mean giving up your beliefs.


You'd have to give up some of them if you're a Christian, wouldn't you?

In large part, you're already there - you "cannot dismiss the possiblity that there is no God". That's all there is to it - opening your mind to the possibility.


So do I qualify as a free thinker? I admit that I could be wrong about the existence of God. My mind's been open to that for more than 30 years. I don't think I am wrong, but there's nothing logically necessary about belief in God (unless the ontological argument persuades you, which I've never really understood).

I refuse to be shackled with the notion that I have to be 100% certain of every detail about God and faith. Knowledge does not require certainty to be considered knowledge. To be "certain", it must be utterly impossible that I'm wrong about something. I don't know very many things like that.

-Bryan

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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321570 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 4:23 PM
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Sesame Street?

Would have been my guess too, except that I know for a fact that that Count's full name is "Count von Count".

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Author: RogerSkeptic Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321571 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 4:25 PM
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Three markers for anyone who can correctly identify the source of my name.

Count Uptoten


It's what the referee does when the boxer is knocked out.

Roger

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321572 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 4:34 PM
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You know how it is, Mr. going2win. Boredom?


Do other people forget all the stupid things one has posted in the past when one changes screen names?

Never know, it might come in handy some day . . .

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321576 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 5:08 PM
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It's what the referee does when the boxer is knocked out.

Roger

No markers for you! Next!

Count Uptoten
... pity. You were my great hope

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321578 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 5:39 PM
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No markers for you! Next!

I would guess it's an anesthesiology thing except I think that's CountDownFromOneHundred.

6

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Author: cevera1 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321582 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 6:22 PM
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No markers for you! Next!

Count Uptoten


The number of houses John McCain couldn't remember he had!!!!!!

What do I win?

cliff(tm)

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Author: Grumpybiker Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321588 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 6:55 PM
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Three markers for anyone who can correctly identify the source of my name.

Count Uptoten


Count up the dead?
Remember your German?

Regards,

Grumpy

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321589 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 7:04 PM
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Count up the dead?
Remember your German?

Regards,

Grumpy

No markers for you! Next!

Count Uptoten
... answer tomorrow

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321590 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 7:06 PM
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I assumed it was that old rule to count to ten before losing your temper.

I do that also... I just count really quickly.

Hey - maybe it's from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Where is dad makes him count to 10 before interrupting. In Greek, iirc.


Frydaze1

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Author: rmhj Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321591 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 7:26 PM
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There are ten kinds of people: those who can count (up to ten) in binary, and those who can't.

rj

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321593 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 10:11 PM
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Three markers for anyone who can correctly identify the source of my name.


Kid's games?

http://www.uptoten.com/

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321596 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 11:38 PM
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To a certain extent, I retain a "spirituality" in that I sometimes imagine the existence of a binding force that links everything in the universe; not just all living things ... everything.

May the Force be with you.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321597 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 11:48 PM
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To a certain extent, I retain a "spirituality" in that I sometimes imagine the existence of a binding force that links everything in the universe; not just all living things ... everything.
--------------------------------------
May the Force be with you.

--------------------------------------

I'm pretty sure a tin foil hat can break those links and re-establish your free will.

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321598 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 11:54 PM
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I'm pretty sure a tin foil hat can break those links and re-establish your free will.

The Force is strong. Luke could still use it with a helmet on.

PSU

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321599 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 11:57 PM
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The Force is strong. Luke could still use it with a helmet on.

------------------------------

Pssssst. That helmet was made out of plastic. It takes tin foil to break the force.

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321600 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/28/2009 11:57 PM
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Kid's games?

http://www.uptoten.com/

No markers for you! Next!

Count Uptoten

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321601 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 12:05 AM
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It takes tin foil to break the force.

Tin foil's ability to stop mind control is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

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Author: cevera1 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321602 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 12:09 AM
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Pssssst. That helmet was made out of plastic. It takes tin foil to break the force.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321604 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:01 AM
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I find your lack of faith disturbing.

You think that's disturbing. You should see me in front of my computer with my tin foil hat and monkey underwear. The Force wouldn't dare touch me.

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Author: TeraGram Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321605 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:13 AM
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You should see me in front of my computer with my tin foil hat and monkey underwear.

o
m
f
s
m




I'll brb.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321606 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:16 AM
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That's hawt.

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Author: RogerSkeptic Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321607 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:27 AM
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30,000 is the answer, if you are going to count up Toten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toten

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321608 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:28 AM
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That's hawt.

Maybe. But it certainly is a visual I did not need...

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321629 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 11:42 AM
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To a certain extent, I retain a "spirituality" in that I sometimes imagine the existence of a binding force that links everything in the universe; not just all living things ... everything.

May the Force be with you.



Basically ... yes.

"Do, or do not ... there is no 'try'." - Yoda

MV

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Author: rmhj Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321630 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 11:53 AM
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To a certain extent, I retain a "spirituality" in that I sometimes imagine the existence of a binding force that links everything in the universe; not just all living things ... everything.

Sounds like you and Woody Allen might be compatible: "I'm what you call a teleological existential atheist. I believe there's an intelligence to the universe with the exception of certain parts of New Jersey."

rj

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321631 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 11:54 AM
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Being a free thinker does not mean giving up your beliefs.


You'd have to give up some of them if you're a Christian, wouldn't you?



I'm trying to explain that one can modulate their beliefs to accomodate a healthy skepticism, without giving up the community or tradition one may have that is based in religious belief. Not something that hard-line Christians would agree with, but I lived many years as a "Christian" without really believing much of the Christ / God myth.


I refuse to be shackled with the notion that I have to be 100% certain of every detail about God and faith. Knowledge does not require certainty to be considered knowledge. To be "certain", it must be utterly impossible that I'm wrong about something. I don't know very many things like that.

I mostly agree - knowledge without certainty is fine so long as it is based on a predominance of provable fact. I don't know for a fact that there is no God, but I have yet to be shown any evidence to the contrary. Never the less, it would be intellectually dishonest for me to say unequivocally that "I am certain there is no God."

It works the same way for believers, though I'd say they have a tougher case to make in support of their own belief. I'm becoming less interested in taking a confrontational stance with believers so long as they're not being judgemental about my lack of belief, or that their belief is not manifesting in destructive behavior.

MV

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321632 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 12:45 PM
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I'm trying to explain that one can modulate their beliefs to accomodate a healthy skepticism, without giving up the community or tradition one may have that is based in religious belief.

Ok, I can see that would work in certain Christian communities. But take the community that Kazim's girlfriend's family represents. I doubt they'd be happy just letting you be, without constantly trying to reconvert you, and if that didn't work in about a week, disowning you. Unless of course you become family, and then they get to try to reconvert you until one of you dies.

If VU is involved in a community like that, its not going to be easy for him to stay as an agnostic. I would hope he could find a community of Christians who maintain belief in the historic confessions of the faith, but allow people with serious doubts/disbelief to fellowship. Unfortunately they are not easy to find.

I'm becoming less interested in taking a confrontational stance with believers so long as they're not being judgemental about my lack of belief,

Can you give me an example of being judgemental? I mean, I disagree with you on the strenght of the evidence for God, but I don't consider that being judgemental.

-Bryan

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Author: MacNugget Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321638 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:29 PM
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Can you give me an example of being judgemental? I mean, I disagree with you on the strenght of the evidence for God, but I don't consider that being judgemental.

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."
- President George H. W. Bush

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321639 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:33 PM
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Bryan: Ok, I can see that would work in certain Christian communities. But take the community that Kazim's girlfriend's family represents. I doubt they'd be happy just letting you be, without constantly trying to reconvert you, and if that didn't work in about a week, disowning you. Unless of course you become family, and then they get to try to reconvert you until one of you dies.

You have come a long ways, Bryan (nee Bray-on).

You accuratel;y describe my family relations - all devout Southern Baptist. I partially resolved that issue by moving 1500 miles away. Might not be everyone's preference, but copnsider that I am talking about moving out of Texas, a plus all by itself.

Count Uptoten

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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321640 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:35 PM
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Ok, I can see that would work in certain Christian communities. But take the community that Kazim's girlfriend's family represents. I doubt they'd be happy just letting you be, without constantly trying to reconvert you, and if that didn't work in about a week, disowning you. Unless of course you become family, and then they get to try to reconvert you until one of you dies.

I agree. I have never been a convert, but it's certainly clear to me that whether God is real or not, converting away from Christianity usually has very harrowing consequences.

I'd like to think that it probably wouldn't be the same in the other direction, although if that is true than it may be just because any existing atheist social constructs are weakly held together at best. In a strong skeptical community, I think an atheist becoming religious wouldn't be well regarded by his soon to be former friends. From a family perspective, though, I can say confidently that if Ben became a serious Christian I would be disappointed but still want to maintain an equally strong relationship (although it could be one characterized by vigorous arguments).

Can you give me an example of being judgemental? I mean, I disagree with you on the strenght of the evidence for God, but I don't consider that being judgemental.

I think there may have been times in the past when you had supported the notion that a belief in God is required to make you good. I don't think I need to tell you know why atheists find that insulting. However, I distinctly remember you mentioning more recently that you had taken the opposite position to defend unbelievers against such charges to fellow church members. I really appreciated that.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321641 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:41 PM
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Ok, I can see that would work in certain Christian communities. But take the community that Kazim's girlfriend's family represents. I doubt they'd be happy just letting you be, without constantly trying to reconvert you, and if that didn't work in about a week, disowning you. Unless of course you become family, and then they get to try to reconvert you until one of you dies.

If VU is involved in a community like that, its not going to be easy for him to stay as an agnostic. I would hope he could find a community of Christians who maintain belief in the historic confessions of the faith, but allow people with serious doubts/disbelief to fellowship. Unfortunately they are not easy to find.


No doubt there are places where milquetoast Christians are not tolerated. My advice may well fail in such places, though I've only lived where agnostic Christians are mostly accepted as "seekers," i.e. people who just haven't truly found Jesus yet :)


Can you give me an example of being judgemental?

Being given the old fish-eye by my own parents after revealing that I would not be getting my kids baptized ranks pretty high in my recollection. That's what launched "the discussion" with them, at least.

I can also recall several conversations wherein, having revealed that I don't go to church, subsequently declining invitations to go their church pretty much poisoned those interpersonal relationships. Being told that I'm lost and my life is an empty shell without believing some biblical fairly tale backstory is pretty damn judgemental.

The list goes on.

MV

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321643 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:47 PM
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I think there may have been times in the past when you had supported the notion that a belief in God is required to make you good. I don't think I need to tell you know why atheists find that insulting. However, I distinctly remember you mentioning more recently that you had taken the opposite position to defend unbelievers against such charges to fellow church members. I really appreciated that.


I don't remember whether I ever *supported* it, but maybe never thought much about the claims until I started reading AF and seeing the effect that attitude had.

Your gf's family was pretty rude. Inept is probably more accurate, because I didn't detect intent to offend you. I doubt they've had much experience interacting with atheists on issues of faith. You and gf can educate them at least on how they come across, and hopefully you can find a place of mutual respect and enjoy the relationship.

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Author: rmhj Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321644 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 1:53 PM
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Can you give me an example of being judgemental? I mean, I disagree with you on the strenght of the evidence for God, but I don't consider that being judgemental.

MacNugget: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."
- President George H. W. Bush


Good Republican. Never passes up a chance to sow discord amongst the unwashed masses.

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Author: rmhj Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321645 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 2:01 PM
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I think there may have been times in the past when you had supported the notion that a belief in God is required to make you good. I don't think I need to tell you know why atheists find that insulting.

I can think of several times in my life when visiting relatives involved listening to various diatribes that specifically assumed that non-Christians could not be altruistic; specifically that "christian charity" was specific to Christians and wasn't found amongst others.

The sad thing is that many of them actually do read the bible, are educated enough to know something about Judaism, and really ought to know the Jewish laws and customs on hospitality and charity.

Then again, some of them have been crazy enough to spew at ministers preaching tolerance and understanding of the agnostic position.

rj

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321647 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 2:09 PM
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me: Can you give me an example of being judgemental?

MV: I can also recall several conversations wherein, having revealed that I don't go to church, subsequently declining invitations to go their church pretty much poisoned those interpersonal relationships. Being told that I'm lost and my life is an empty shell without believing some biblical fairly tale backstory is pretty damn judgemental.

I have a confession. I have a hard time understanding why people get offended by this kind of stuff. (In what follows, I revert back to bray-on.)

The closest I can come is that I do bristle with anger when someone suggests I've done something morally wrong, particularly when I don't agree.

But here's the problem. When someone says "you are lost", they are at least applying a religious test, much like a judge in a courtroom would apply a legal test when deciding someone's guilt or innocence. What does the law forbid, and do the facts support the guilt of the accused? If the facts show he's guilty, then it's proper for the judge to pronounce his guilt.

Now if I, in the jury, agreed with the prosecutor that the person is guilty, how am I in the wrong? You might be disappointed in my decision, or even mad, but I've done nothing but apply a standard to a situation. I didn't create the standard.

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that no one, myself included, wants to be told we are morally guilty of anything. I *might* let someone very very close to me say something like that without it hurting our relationship, but most other people would offend me if they took a stance that I'm in the wrong.

So help me pinpoint the offense if I told you "You are lost", particularly if you ask me my opinion.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321648 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 2:20 PM
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So help me pinpoint the offense if I told you "You are lost", particularly if you ask me my opinion.

I may be a little different here. When someone asks me a question I assume they want the "correct" answer (i.e. the truth as best I know it). When I ask a question I want that. So if I ask you and you tell me "you are lost", fair enough. I asked for your opinion and you gave it. No foul there.

But if we're just talking about something and it comes out that I am a free-thinker it is down-right rude to respond "you are a lost and empty shell of a person". Imagine me saying "you must be an empty shell of a person if you need some imaginary friend to fill you up and give you a sense of self-worth" when you mention you are Christian. You wouldn't be insulted by that?

There are much more civil ways to go about discussing such differences. A simple "really, why do you think that?" is sufficient (and non-insulting). Sadly, Christians (many, not all) appear to be hyper-judgmental; which is particularly ironic given the alleged teachings of their 'savior'.

1poorguy

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321650 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 2:32 PM
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Three markers for anyone who can correctly identify the source of my name.

Count Uptoten

Since, as usual, no one had a correct answer, the three markers will go to the girl with the biggest t i t s in the room.

The name comes from an old comic strip, "Bringing up Father", with Maggie and Jiggs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bringing_Up_Father They were originally poor Irish (shanty Irish?) who had somehow struck it rich. Either hit the Irish sweepstakes, or he had a successful construction business in New York. He tried to keep his old friends, and loved to eat corned beef and cabbage at Dinty Moore's, and she became a social climber, so there was plenty of room for conflict.

Their friends were a mix of his old cronies and her new, more socially acceptable friends. They knew Dr. Hugh Upp, the neighborhood gossip, Mrs. Carrie Tales, and their nobility friend Count Uptoten.

As a very old strip, it has found its way into the Tijuana Bible (my favorite Bible). http://tijuanabibles.org/ Actually, the only actual comic of them I found was there.

Count Uptoten.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321651 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 2:39 PM
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Count Uptoten

Since, as usual, no one had a correct answer, the three markers will go to the girl with the biggest t i t s in the room.

The name comes from an old comic strip, "Bringing up Father",


"know your audience".

you're talking to a bunch of young whipper-snappers ..TOO young to have heard of comics from the time of Gutenberg



-b
... my guess woulda been some old Radio show

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321653 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 2:47 PM
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But if we're just talking about something and it comes out that I am a free-thinker it is down-right rude to respond "you are a lost and empty shell of a person". Imagine me saying "you must be an empty shell of a person if you need some imaginary friend to fill you up and give you a sense of self-worth" when you mention you are Christian. You wouldn't be insulted by that?


Yes, I guess, depending on the context. That's what makes questions like this complicated.

There are much more civil ways to go about discussing such differences. A simple "really, why do you think that?" is sufficient (and non-insulting).

You'd think it would be non-insulting. Yet I've managed to insult atheist family members merely by asking questions seeking information. I guess they assumed they were going to get the "you're lost and empty" lecture, and reacted to that. You never know what will offend people until its too late.

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321655 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 2:49 PM
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So help me pinpoint the offense if I told you "You are lost", particularly if you ask me my opinion.


Stating one is atheist (or pagan for that matter) is not the same as asking for your opinion. Usually, for me, this line comes up in something like, "why don't you go to church?" or "why won't you come to my church?" conversation. "Oh, you don't believe, you must be 'lost'"

The implication is strongly that I haven't been exposed to "real" Christianity (or other faith), that I haven't studied what I believe, that I don't know the ONE TRUE WAY as perceived by the other person, that I haven't really thought about it.

Whereas, most people that are atheist (or pagan, or other non-majority religion or religion outside their family's) have probably thought about it and researched it much more than others who just follow in their family's faith.

Now, I'm not saying that there are no Christians (or people of other faiths) that don't research their faith or other faiths, just that my experience has been that many people don't question their faith, and because they don't question it, their understanding is rather shallow. (Majority, here, not individuals)

I'm not atheist in that I think there is something more to the human experience than we can know with just our senses. I think humans construct things, like gods or God, to try to understand that something more. From that perspective, I think it is possible to question one's faith, figure out what you believe deep inside yourself, and come out with a stronger faith. I just think most people don't even try.

Ishtar

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321656 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 2:53 PM
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You'd think it would be non-insulting. Yet I've managed to insult atheist family members merely by asking questions seeking information. I guess they assumed they were going to get the "you're lost and empty" lecture, and reacted to that. You never know what will offend people until its too late.


It can be very tiring to defend your viewpoint all the time, which may be where they are coming from.

Ishtar

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321660 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 3:23 PM
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Stating one is atheist (or pagan for that matter) is not the same as asking for your opinion. Usually, for me, this line comes up in something like, "why don't you go to church?" or "why won't you come to my church?" conversation. "Oh, you don't believe, you must be 'lost'"

The implication is strongly that I haven't been exposed to "real" Christianity (or other faith), that I haven't studied what I believe, that I don't know the ONE TRUE WAY as perceived by the other person, that I haven't really thought about it.


First, let me say that I find it really odd for someone to say "you must be lost" in casual conversation. Might as well say "Oh, you don't go to church, you must be a retard!"

But I don't see the connection you are making from "you're lost" to "you must not have studied all the nifty *proofs* of God, that if you'd just open your mind, you'd see are true" kind of thinking. I'm not asking you to defend your perception, just sayin.

my experience has been that many people don't question their faith, and because they don't question it, their understanding is rather shallow.

My experience too, although I know those (like my wife) who do little questioning, but have a deep understanding.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321661 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 3:25 PM
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So help me pinpoint the offense if I told you "You are lost", particularly if you ask me my opinion.

If I ask your opinion, or we're mutually engaging in debate it's a different matter altogether.

Say I walk up to someone leaving church and ask them what they thought about me not believing in God. They may ignore me, they may say "whatever floats your boat", they may express their sorrow that I don't enjoy the same comfort in religion that they do, or they may call me Hell-Child-Devilspawn. In any case, I would have got what I was looking for and I would not take offense (though I would still consider being called Hell-Child-Devilspawn a tad judgemental).

I take offense when the subject of religion is thrust upon me by someone who finds it vitally important in their own lives, and then proclaims me deficient when they discover I don't share their fanatacism.

MV

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321663 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 3:36 PM
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You never know what will offend people until its too late.

Yep. The bane of my existence.

1poorguy (doesn't help that I really do assume that if the question is asked then the answer is desired...strangely that isn't always true)

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321665 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 3:53 PM
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I take offense when the subject of religion is thrust upon me by someone who finds it vitally important in their own lives, and then proclaims me deficient when they discover I don't share their fanatacism.


Ok, so by "you're lost" you hear "You're morally and/or mentally deficient." When you put it that way, I see your point.

I still say its really odd for someone to ask you if you go to church, then say "Oh, you're lost".

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321668 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 3:59 PM
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bdhinton: "The closest I can come is that I do bristle with anger when someone suggests I've done something morally wrong, particularly when I don't agree.

But here's the problem. When someone says "you are lost", they are at least applying a religious test, much like a judge in a courtroom would apply a legal test when deciding someone's guilt or innocence. What does the law forbid, and do the facts support the guilt of the accused? If the facts show he's guilty, then it's proper for the judge to pronounce his guilt.

Now if I, in the jury, agreed with the prosecutor that the person is guilty, how am I in the wrong? You might be disappointed in my decision, or even mad, but I've done nothing but apply a standard to a situation. I didn't create the standard."


Whether you created the standard depends on one's perspective. I suspect to an athiest, that deciding to accept the Christian god as opposed to to the Jewish god, or the Muslim god, or the Viking gods, looks like a choice and does create the standard.

"So help me pinpoint the offense if I told you "You are lost", particularly if you ask me my opinion."

Except that OP never requested the opinion. It was offered as unsolicted judgement upon OP's life without request.

Regards, JAFO

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321669 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 3:59 PM
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Count Uptoten

Since, as usual, no one had a correct answer, the three markers will go to the girl with the biggest t i t s in the room.

The name comes from an old comic strip, "Bringing up Father",


"know your audience".

you're talking to a bunch of young whipper-snappers ..TOO young to have heard of comics from the time of Gutenberg

Tsk, tsk. There was a time when almost anyMonty Python quote or allusion ws worth a few recs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwAOc4g3K-g

Conut Uptoten
... These kids today are soooo ignorant.

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321670 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 4:01 PM
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Ok, so by "you're lost" you hear "You're morally and/or mentally deficient." When you put it that way, I see your point.


Yes.

I still say its really odd for someone to ask you if you go to church, then say "Oh, you're lost".


It's not exactly like that. It's been years since I've had a conversation where that particular phrasing came up, but it is the attitude. Kind of a "poor little lost thing! I just need to show you the error of your ways." It isn't meant cruelly, but makes assumptions.

The only way I've found to counter it, without being totally rude, is with Tolkein's line, "not all who wander are lost." If they keep going after that, I get rude.

Ishtar

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321673 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 4:24 PM
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"So help me pinpoint the offense if I told you "You are lost", particularly if you ask me my opinion."
------
Except that OP never requested the opinion. It was offered as unsolicted judgement upon OP's life without request.


Right, I realize too late that I'm asking two different questions, or at least two different scenarios

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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321674 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 4:25 PM
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Ok, so by "you're lost" you hear "You're morally and/or mentally deficient." When you put it that way, I see your point.

I still say its really odd for someone to ask you if you go to church, then say "Oh, you're lost".


Well, welcome to our world.

I was across the street neighbors with somebody for several years before they discovered that we were atheists. When they came over and asked my ex to church, she thanked them but declined because we are Jewish. Now, I am nominally Jewish, but she's not. But do I blame her for lying? No, because like every atheist, she knows that if you say "I won't go because I'm an atheist" to that kind of earnest Southern Baptist, the reaction you get will inevitably land in one of two categories. Either "Oh no, what an awful thing, why are you mad at God?" or, "Oh gee, how interesting. Have you ever been exposed to the good news about Jesus Christ?"

Personally, I'm weird. I enjoy those sorts of conversations, so I don't hesitate to jump right into it. That leaves me free to be more honest about my atheism, but I also have to watch my step when, for example, it's a coworker, or in some other way I am dependent on remaining in the good social graces of that person.

For most atheists, I get the impression that being treated with either pity, condescension, or indignation is frequent and tiring. Hence, most learn to just dodge the subject entirely.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321675 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 4:40 PM
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Missed the Python reference (haven't seen that video in a long time).

"He must have let himself down a bit on the hobbies. Golf isn't very popular around here."

:-)

Did anyone catch the Python-athon last week on IFC? I caught most of it. Interesting documentary, too.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321676 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 4:50 PM
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When they came over and asked my ex to church, she thanked them but declined because we are Jewish.

I don't think that would have deterred your gf's grandmother

For most atheists, I get the impression that being treated with either pity, condescension, or indignation is frequent and tiring. Hence, most learn to just dodge the subject entirely.

I sincerely wish that weren't the case, that they didn't have to experience such attitudes.

I've lived in a country where being American and Christian were two huge strikes against me. It was very stressful.

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Author: RogerSkeptic Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321677 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 4:53 PM
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The name comes from an old comic strip, "Bringing up Father", with Maggie and Jiggs.

I remember ignoring this comic when I was a kid. It appeared in the Sunday Cleveland Plain Dealer when I was about 6-10 years old.

RogerS

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321678 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 4:58 PM
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Roger: I remember ignoring this comic when I was a kid. It appeared in the Sunday Cleveland Plain Dealer when I was about 6-10 years old.



Tell us again about the time it was preempted by Lincoln's assassination.

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Author: RogerSkeptic Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321681 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 5:26 PM
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Tell us again about the time it was preempted by Lincoln's assassination.

You know, I went to grade school starting in 1944 which was about 80 years after the Lincoln assassination. I can remember being very upset when they showed a movie in school showing Lincoln getting shot by John Wilkes Booth. I think it was D.W. Griffith's Abraham Lincoln.

Several years later, I was equally upset when I saw Kennedy shot by Lee Harvey Oswald.

RS

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321683 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 5:48 PM
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You know, I went to grade school starting in 1944 which was about 80 years after the Lincoln assassination. I can remember being very upset when they showed a movie in school showing Lincoln getting shot by John Wilkes Booth. I think it was D.W. Griffith's Abraham Lincoln.


I remember seeing a couple different documentaries that depicted it. One was all shaky, as if cameras had actually been there.

I read recently that the last person to see Lincoln's face died in the 1960s. When the casket was reburied in the renovated tomb in the early 1900's, they opened it to confirm it was Lincoln inside. A number of people viewed the body, still intact and recognizable. One of them was a kid of 10 or 12 at the time, who lived into the 1960s.

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321684 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 6:44 PM
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Yet I've managed to insult atheist family members merely by asking questions seeking information. I guess they assumed they were going to get the "you're lost and empty" lecture, and reacted to that. You never know what will offend people until its too late.

I would bet that it wasn't what you actually said. I would bet it was the result of previous hurts, and you (being an 'other') were presumed to have similar views. It takes work to (at best partially) overcome such things.

Or, in short, I think you're right. It could also be that they had to bottle up previous desires to stand up for themselves and you caught the venting.


- Ben, who is perfectly free of all assumptions and tribal identities messing up my thinking...or not so much...

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Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 6:46 PM
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Well, welcome to our world.

Well, here's a true story, I know it because it's about me.

I don't tell neighbors about my atheism; frankly the subject just doesn't come up, and like Kazim, when I was invited to church when we first moved here 15 years ago, I simply begged off and that was that.

(There was one episode where some people passing out Bibles came to the front door and I was in a bad mood and threw them off the property, but that was so many years ago I've almost forgotten it.)

Anyway, in late 2007 we were at a neighbor's house for a dinner, maybe 12 people altogether, all of us "friends" of the neighborhood variety, and the subject of religion came up. Someone asked the host what religion he was, and he said - quite forthrightly - "None. I'm an atheist."

Now there were no gasps of shock around the table, but what happened next bothered me: Mrs. Goofy turned to me and said "Oh, hey, just like you!"

Again, there were no gasps, no reaction at all that I can think of, at least at that time.

However I do note that in the 15 years I have lived here we have always gotten 3 or 4 kids to the door selling their coupon books during that promotion; this past year: none. We have always purchased Girl Scout Cookies from 2 or 3 neighborhood girls, this year nobody came up the driveway. As the neighborhood has larger than average plot plans, there are fewer houses than in some, and we are half-way up a hill, so we have never gotten more than 15-20 kids coming to the door for Halloween. Last year: zero.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I live in East Tennessee, which is highly religious, and... OK, I'm just being paranoid.

Which I will confirm in another couple of days, when, for the second time in 15 years - or not - no one will come to our house asking for candy. Oh, incidentally, the "host of the party"? They don't get Halloweeners either. Probably just a coincidence.
 


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Author: rmhj Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321686 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 7:02 PM
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Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I live in East Tennessee, which is highly religious, and... OK, I'm just being paranoid.

Probably not. I've got deep family ties to the area, and if it's not "God Central" I dunno what is.

I've also got family members who live there now, but specifically intend to move out of the area before raising children: they see the local airwaves and society as inappropriate for young children, specifically due to all the "God Walloping" there.

rj

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321688 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 7:14 PM
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GH: I don't tell neighbors about my atheism; frankly the subject just doesn't come up, and like Kazim, when I was invited to church when we first moved here 15 years ago, I simply begged off and that was that.

We were on vacation in Hawai`i, with my sister and BIL. They know I am atheist, and I know they are Southern Baptist (He is actually a "counselor" - PhD and all. I shudder to think of his counseling sessions. Apparently he is copnsidered very good with children.*). We never discuss it.

I intentionally left my book out where he would see it. Stephen Jay Gould's Wonderful Life. He saw it and recognized Gould's name. "Well, I am sure he is a very intelligent man, but I know that he is an evolutionist." I pounced, or tried to pounce. I showed him a cartoon which had been reproduced in the book. The old "ascent of man" showing monkeys evolving into men, except the third figure was an idiot-looking man labled "Creationist". He laughed and said, "That would be me". I asked for more discussion, as "I don't actually know any creationists". Never happened, and isn't going to happen. Just as well.

Count Uptoten

*He used to have a Great Dane he took to his office. He discovered that the children often would not talk to him, but they would talk to the dog. The dog was a good listener, and liked children, so he bacame part of the therapy team, with my BIL listening in on the conversation. I thought it was very insightful for him to develop that idea. He would supply the dog's questions, and suggest the children talk to the dog.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321689 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 7:29 PM
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K: "For most atheists, I get the impression that being treated with either pity, condescension, or indignation is frequent and tiring. Hence, most learn to just dodge the subject entirely"

There is an added dimension to the 'frequent and tiring' aspect of your post. The 'pity, condescension or indignation' comes from people who have given the issue no real thought themselves. It takes practice to learn to be sympathetic rather than annoyed and not to meet their pity with your own.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321693 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 8:36 PM
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I still say its really odd for someone to ask you if you go to church, then say "Oh, you're lost".

Of course that would be odd; in reality it's never that simple. The "you're lost" doesn't come until after a long string of prodding questions taking place over the course of weeks or months, repeated invitations to join them at their church, them taking umbrage at having their invitation turned down, pressing for an explanation why the lack of interest, then finally acting all offended when presented with the fact that the subject of their invitation has no interest in religion. Some people can't take a hint.

MV

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321696 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 10:53 PM
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The "you need to be saved" stuff is just as annoying if you are of a different religion - believe me. I've never had Hindu, Muslim, Jain, or Buddhists tell me I'm in need of conversion - just Christians. It's presumptuous and tiresome. Someone once told me in my high school bathroom that I was going to hell. "Ummm...excuse me, I was just looking for the sink there - did I ask to be addressed this way?"

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Author: MDGluon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321698 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/29/2009 11:13 PM
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So help me pinpoint the offense if I told you "You are lost", particularly if you ask me my opinion.

What gives you the right to judge others...when did God die and appoint you?

Does this give you a clue?

Hubris man, hubris.

md (we probably all fail on this one)

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Author: cevera1 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321703 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/30/2009 6:21 AM
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Now there were no gasps of shock around the table, but what happened next bothered me: Mrs. Goofy turned to me and said "Oh, hey, just like you!"

So many movies portray racism and prejudice as ignorant, loud mouth, louts shouting obscenities and spewing vile at the top of their lungs. It used to be that way but in today's society - where fortunately, it has become less acceptable for this kind of behavior - these things are more apt to be subtle. No gasps. You have to listen much more closely to conversation to understand and pick up on phrases such as, "I'm not racist, but......", or "I try to love my neighbor, but......".

For many folks, this isn't an issue. I work with a wonderful Indian women who is Hindu. When the topic of religion comes up at work - usually in some inadvertent manner, she is not your run of the mill 'in your face' Hindu ;^) - there are some quite gaps in the conversation when a group of people are involved. It's not a problem for her as she is a warm, affable, and very social person. This wouldn't work for someone like me, who might tend to the awkward in large social situations.

Obviously, this prejudice, this quite fear of someone different is wrong, but happens so much more often than we believe. SandyLeeLee reiterated a story on this board years ago regarding the death of her mother and the poor behavior of a guest at the funeral. This lady told Sandy that she liked her mother, but that in the end it didn't matter, as her mother was going to hell. There is no explanation or excuse for that type of behavior. None. The only advantage in such a situation is that you know how that person feels and you can take the steps to be rid of them. Unlike the silent treatment that Goofy and the 'host of the party' received.

<\i>as the neighborhood has larger than average plot plans, there are fewer houses than in some, and we are half-way up a hill, so we have never gotten more than 15-20 kids coming to the door for Halloween. Last year: zero.

Then again, maybe it's your costume?

http://tinyurl.com/dbdh8o

cliff

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321704 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/30/2009 9:08 AM
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"I still say its really odd for someone to ask you if you go to church, then say "Oh, you're lost"."

I like to agree with statements like that.

"Oh, you're lost"

Yes I am. (with emphasis like the commercial where the character is asked if he is some famous person and he emphatically replies, 'yes I am')

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321717 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/30/2009 11:46 AM
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So help me pinpoint the offense if I told you "You are lost", particularly if you ask me my opinion.


How about..."so help me pinpoint the offense if I told you, 'you are retarded', particularly if you ask my opinion".

6

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321721 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/30/2009 12:01 PM
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How about..."so help me pinpoint the offense if I told you, 'you are retarded', particularly if you ask my opinion".

6


Bad example, since I am often deserving of that label.

MV (humbly striving towards non-retardedness)

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Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/30/2009 2:09 PM
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Which I will confirm in another couple of days, when, for the second time in 15 years - or not - no one will come to our house asking for candy. Oh, incidentally, the "host of the party"? They don't get Halloweeners either. Probably just a coincidence.

Coincidence? Oh no, my friend. We can't expose impressionable children to a non-believer on this national holiday of pagan symbolism and bacchanalia. That wouldn't be right.

;)

--FY

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321734 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/30/2009 2:21 PM
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Coincidence? Oh no, my friend. We can't expose impressionable children to a non-believer on this national holiday of pagan symbolism and bacchanalia. That wouldn't be right.


OMG, this reminds me of a story.

I was on a ship and we were just starting WestPac (a Western Pacific 'cruise' for the non-squids). Halloween was about 3 days after we left.

No one was in the mood to decorate or celebrate or anything, but there was a door decorating contest going on the day we pulled out. This one fundy-guy, T* wanted to decorate our door, and was getting mad because no one wanted to help him. He through this HUGE hissy fit.

Everyone in the shop knew I was pagan. I just looked at him and said, "Why are you so all-fired up to celebrate MY holiday?"

He ended up taking a big orange buffer pad and tryed to STAPLE stuff to it. This is a big pad that goes under a buffer machine to shine up the floors. The staples went over big, I tell you, huge, when they were discovered a few weeks later.

He ended up dressing as a girl for Halloween for the costume contest. Later, for something else, maybe the crossing the line? he dressed as a woman again. He was a big, strong guy with a very square jaw. It was just weird. [this is not to say anything against transexuals or anything else, just that for this guy, it was not a good look and did not seem in keeping with some of his stated values.]

*seriously fundy. did you know that all the Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian and all other pre-christian world myths were just retellings of Bible stories dating back to Contantine? He did. *shudder* And he claimed to have been a history major at some Bible college. Really wish I could remember which one.

Ishtar

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321741 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/30/2009 4:15 PM
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So help me pinpoint the offense if I told you "You are lost", particularly if you ask me my opinion.


How about..."so help me pinpoint the offense if I told you, 'you are retarded', particularly if you ask my opinion".


For some reason, when I read the above, this flashed through my mind:
"Have you found God?"
"You should remember where you put things."

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Author: rmhj Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321743 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/30/2009 4:57 PM
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"Have you found God?"

"You should remember where you put things."


Good humor. I would want to answer, "No. Why, is He missing", or "No, where did you see Him last?" but those probably wouldn't lead to good places.

"Yes, He was here until you arrived" would be really insulting.

rj

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321744 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 10/30/2009 5:12 PM
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My response (before reading yours) would have been "Wasn't looking". However, now I think I would respond:

"Yes, He was here until you arrived"

If they can annoy me, I see no reason why I can't return the favor.

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Author: spookysquid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321856 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 11/2/2009 2:50 PM
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Since, as usual, no one had a correct answer, the three markers will go to the girl with the biggest t i t s in the room.

Just for official accounting purposes only, but who claimed that prize?

-spookysquid, official girl with the biggest **** documentarian

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321858 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 11/2/2009 2:52 PM
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Sure as hell wasn't me.

Frydaze1 <--- B

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Author: spookysquid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321862 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 11/2/2009 3:07 PM
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Frydaze1 <--- B

See, this is why I went with the thong recommendation.

-spookysquid, who doesn't discriminate and would welcome all sizes and cups into his cult of Spooky the Squid, the other great tentacled one

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 325293 of 441133
Subject: Re: Paging VUCommodore Date: 1/9/2010 6:11 PM
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Three markers for anyone who can correctly identify the source of my name.

Count Uptoten

I just remembered another character in the "Bringing Up Father" comic. The town tightwad, Titus Canby.

Count Uptoten

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