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Author: SaintPatrick1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1947623  
Subject: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 1:32 PM
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"Yes, some of it came from some of the tactics that were used at that time, interrogation tactics that were used. "

Meet the Press.
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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857382 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 1:46 PM
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We should torture everyone. Imagine what we could get to the bottom of.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857383 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 1:49 PM
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Wow, Leon confirms what has been obvious to all except the most starry eyed leftist for years.

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Author: jah609 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857385 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 1:51 PM
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<<<We should torture everyone. Imagine what we could get to the bottom of.>>>>

If they weren't so funny, reading the left's posts would be a form of torture.

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857386 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 2:00 PM
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Can't wait to see how the PA leftist wackos explain this one!

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857387 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 2:02 PM
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<<<We should torture everyone. Imagine what we could get to the bottom of.>>>>

If they weren't so funny, reading the left's posts would be a form of torture.
______________________

that's not a dedicated lefty

Just someone who doesn't realize that the same silly statement can be used with , well we put put murderers in prison so why not just penalize everyone.

They will come up with, the invariable, but they are tried defense, as if those tortured were not so certainly known to be terrorists that the guilt was not really a question.

The world should be a perfect place.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857388 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 2:05 PM
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"Yes, some of it came from some of the tactics that were used at that time, interrogation tactics that were used. "

Yeah!

Torture works. Sometimes. Kind of. Maybe.

But that doesn't make it legal.

Or ethical.

We used to be better than this.

Thanks George, Dick and John.

And does anyone else notice the absurdity of people who enthusiastically support the government's use of torture calling Obamacare "tyranny? or calling Obama a "dictator" for making questionable recess appointments?

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857390 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 2:07 PM
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"Yes, some of it came from some of the tactics that were used at that time, interrogation tactics that were used. "

Sure it did, but who can say the same info could not have been gained without torture, without compromising our values?

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857392 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 2:17 PM
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Wow, Leon confirms what has been obvious to all except the most starry eyed leftist for years.

Fail.

No one says torture never works. They say it does more harm than good both in terms of eliciting information and to the character of the nation.

People who cheer torture and who are cheered by this "admission" are sick.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857396 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 2:35 PM
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"We used to be better than this."

We used to be The Good Guys.

Ken

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857405 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 3:08 PM
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We used to be better than this.

Thanks George, Dick and John.


It is a new world order and you best get in line.

Obama spiked the football on the back of these techniques, so you best embrace it, as all things Obama.

99

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857419 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 3:36 PM
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"Yes, some of it came from some of the tactics that were used at that time, interrogation tactics that were used. "

Meet the Press.


_________________________

Thank you President George Bush. Because of you our greatest enemy was finally brought to justice.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857434 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 3:55 PM
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We should torture everyone. Imagine what we could get to the bottom of.

LOL.

I get funny.

Unfortunately some people aren't getting the sarcasm.

My new motto - "Sometimes you gotta laugh to keep from crying."

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857448 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 4:15 PM
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We used to be The Good Guys.

Ask yourself a question: Why were there very few Japanese POWs in WWII?

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Author: richieds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857449 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 4:15 PM
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"People who cheer torture and who are cheered by this "admission" are sick."




I have little doubt that scores of American lives have been saved by this technique and it has been used in extreme rare circumstances.

We live in a new world, where the next big attack could wipe out many thousands, if not a city and we KNOW, beyond a doubt, that there are people out there with just that intention.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857450 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 4:17 PM
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LOL.

I get funny.

Unfortunately some people aren't getting the sarcasm.

My new motto - "Sometimes you gotta laugh to keep from crying."


You guys REALLY need to read up on your own country more. Even good guys do bad things from time to time.

History lesson. A rec for the first left winger who can tell me who Shiro Ishii is and where he went after WWII.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857459 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 4:32 PM
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We should torture everyone. Imagine what we could get to the bottom of.

Good idea. We could start with Congress and maybe figure out what the heck they are thinking?

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857486 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 9:02 PM
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torture info used to find binladen

Not mentioned: NON-torture information was also used to find OBL. So, the real (and unanswered) question is very simple:

Was the info obtained via torture *necessary*?

If so, then welcome to the official "US Torture Chamber for the Obtaining of Truth".

Thank you, GWB.

The next question is: Who gets the honor of experiencing it first?

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857497 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 11:25 PM
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"People who cheer torture and who are cheered by this "admission" are sick."
---
I have little doubt that scores of American lives have been saved by this technique and it has been used in extreme rare circumstances.


You may have little doubt, but you also have no evidence that torture has saved a single life. I stand by my statement.

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Author: richieds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857498 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/3/2013 11:39 PM
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"You may have little doubt, but you also have no evidence that torture has saved a single life. I stand by my statement."


A number of officials have suggested waterboarding played a role but I doubt this country will ever turn over "evidence" on waterboarding.

Part of that is due to the usual tactic of being tight lipped about techniques that work against terrorists and part of it is due to political reasons.

Of course, you have to believe waterboarding does not work, because if it HAS saved lives, then the "sick" one would be the fella who'd prefer dead Americans over waterboarded terrorists.

Guess "sick" is in the eye of the beholder.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857500 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:05 AM
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Ask yourself a question: Why were there very few Japanese POWs in WWII?


Because they fought to the death and did not surrender.

What does this have to do with whether the U.S government should torture prisoners?

You're upset that the government has the power to require people to buy health insurance, but think its a great idea to give it the power to torture people. There's something wrong with that.

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Author: proton500 Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857515 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 8:55 AM
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I can't think of any other issue that demonstrates how completely you wingnuts can block reality from penetrating your shells of ignorance and willful stupidity than the bin Laden debacle. You can cling to your fairytales about Bush until the day you die but it won't change history one iota.

In 1972 two airmen were suspended for not taking their physicals; one was named George W. Bush and the other was his long time friend James R. Bath. Bath became the bin Laden family money man in Texas.

Bush the dumber starts oil company with bin Laden's brother and BIL as investors. The company goes broke but Bush illegally sells his worthless stock to a bin Laden family member. The SEC only gives Bush a reprimand because his daddy is head of the CIA.

The out going Clinton crew warned the incoming Bush administration specifically about bin Laden.

Bush gets memo; bin Laden 'determined to attack' and goes on the longest presidential vacation in history.

On 9/11 Bush Sr. is in a meeting with bin Laden's brother at the Ritz Carlton hotel, a couple of miles from ground zero.

The day after 9/11 Bush rounds up all the bin Laden family members in America and quietly flies them out of the country without interviewing them about what they knew or know. No other non-military planes fly over America that day.

Bush gives his phoney 'dead or alive speech.'

Bush let's bin Laden slip away at Tora Bora. (see below)

Bush/ Cheney decide to divert attention from bin Laden by stealing Iraqi oil.

Bush cuts off funding for the CIA unit tasked with finding bin Laden.

Bush says on TV that bin Laden 'not important.'


"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, responding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,

3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)



Congress then has to reinstate the CIA unit hunting for bin Laden.

And finally when Pres. Obama nails bin Laden; those among us who love swallowing wingnut tripe, declare that it was Bush the savant who deserves the credit.

May 17, 2002: CIA Counterterrorism Head Fired for Criticizing Failure to Capture Bin Laden


It is announced that Cofer Black, head of the CIA’s counterterrorism division for the last three years, has been assigned to another position. However, in 2004, six anonymous US intelligence officials will claim that, in fact, Black is removed by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld because Black publicly revealed details of the US military’s failure to capture or kill bin Laden in Tora Bora, Afghanistan, in late 2001. Sources will call Black “very aggressive, very knowledgeable,” in fighting al-Qaeda. According to these sources, after the Tora Bora battle ended, an intelligence analysis determined that bin Laden had been trapped in Tora Bora, and deemed his escape a “significant defeat” for the US. Rumsfeld, however, disagreed with the criticism, and said there was not enough “solid evidence” to come to that conclusion. Black then spoke on deep background to the Washington Post, and on April 17, 2002, the Post called the failure to capture bin Laden “the gravest error in the war against al-Qaeda.”(see April 17, 2002) Rumsfeld learned about Black’s role and used his influence to get him removed. [United Press International, 7/29/2004]


Bush disbanded the unit specifically charged with finding Osama bin Laden. And then said bin Laden wasn't important. etc. If Obama or Clinton or FDR did that the media would demand his immediate impeachment for treason. All day every day. The entire media would want to know why.

But for you wingnuts, it was a no comment, non-issue. The media didn't pursue it at all. Why is that? Can you offer me a plausible scenario whereby Bush's actions were reasonable and not treasonable? Are you able to acknowledge that Bush family business interests, specifically with the Saudis, took precedence over finding bin Laden?


proton

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857517 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 9:06 AM
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What does this have to do with whether the U.S government should torture prisoners?

The point you missed was that US troops have committed torture in the past, so the good guy thingy is in your imagination and amongst your pom poms.

War is war and that does include torture whether you want to admit it or not. Not that it is just ok, but rather it just is. Nature of the beast.

99

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857532 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 10:18 AM
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What does this have to do with whether the U.S government should torture prisoners?

The point you missed was that US troops have committed torture in the past...</i.

Of course they have. CIA agents too. But that doesn't in any way justify making it the official policy of the United States.

...so the good guy thingy is in your imagination and amongst your pom poms.

The "good guy thingy" isn't my "thingy."


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Author: SaintPatrick1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857533 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 10:26 AM
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"those among us who love swallowing wingnut tripe" will love and rec your post.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857534 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 10:34 AM
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I can't think of any other issue that demonstrates how completely you wingnuts can block reality from penetrating your shells of ignorance and willful stupidity than the bin Laden debacle. You can cling to your fairytales about Bush until the day you die but it won't change history one iota.

I'm usually dismissive of conspiracy theories, but the Bush-Bin Laden connection is creepy. Not a "Truther" by an stretch, but the Bush reaction to 9-11 was simply bizarre, unless you understand the two families' history.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857538 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 11:59 AM
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A rec for the first left winger who can tell me who Shiro Ishii is and where he went after WWII.

Shiro Ishii was a Japanese scientist who conducted experiments on prisoners. As I recall he ran their bio-warfare program, and their "work" resulted in the deaths of hundreds (maybe thousands). I don't remember now if he did the hypothermia work also (there is disagreement to this day whether or not it is "ethical" to use the hypothermia data gathered by the Japanese during the war because of their using POWs). I'm pretty sure it was the same unit, even if he wasn't involved in it. I know he infected people (not just POWs) with various diseases, and then vivisected them to see the effects on their organs...without benefit of anesthesia.

He was brought to the US to aid in our bio-warfare program after the war. He should have been tried and executed, IMO.

Much as Wernher von Braun was brought to the US to work on our rocket/missile program (if memory serves, he was directly responsible for what later because the Saturn V program). Not as egregious as Ishii, but there were some who thought von Braun should have faced trial as well.

If you're trying to use history to justify modern actions (specifically the torture of "detainees"), it won't fly. It sounds incredibly trite, but "two wrongs don't make a right". We were wrong to bring Ishii here, and we were wrong to torture detainees. There is nothing "right" that comes from this.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857539 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:07 PM
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But for you wingnuts, it was a no comment, non-issue. The media didn't pursue it at all. Why is that? Can you offer me a plausible scenario whereby Bush's actions were reasonable and not treasonable? Are you able to acknowledge that Bush family business interests, specifically with the Saudis, took precedence over finding bin Laden?

___________________________

The answer is where you copied and pasted all this so called information from...It came from Michael Moore's Blog printed in 2004 to try and lend some credibility to his FOS movie FAHRENHEIT 9/11. It is probably why you did not supply a link. Even your side would laugh at the notion anything coming from Michael Moore is nothing more than skewed out of content MUS.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/fahrenheit-911-facts/factu...

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857545 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:27 PM
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Let's remove Felix from the penalty box and see if he knows any history.

"Ask yourself a question: Why were there very few Japanese POWs in WWII?"
Because they fought to the death and did not surrender.

Only partially correct. We weren't in the mood to TAKE any Japanese prisoners.

What does this have to do with whether the U.S government should torture prisoners?

It's in response to Ken' "We used to be the good guys" lament that really wasn't.

You're upset that the government has the power to require people to buy health insurance, but think its a great idea to give it the power to torture people. There's something wrong with that.

Actually, what's upsetting is the continued use of dishonest words tricks by you.

Thanks for continuing to be you.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857546 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:28 PM
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The point you missed was that US troops have committed torture in the past, so the good guy thingy is in your imagination and amongst your pom poms.

War is war and that does include torture whether you want to admit it or not. Not that it is just ok, but rather it just is. Nature of the beast.


Exactly. Nailed it.

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Author: icono5 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857547 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:31 PM
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LurkerMom: You can understandably disagree with some of proton500's ethical characterizations (e.g., Bush the Lesser), but his factual recitation about the Bush/Bin Laden ties is incontrovertible. It has been established by countless sources over many years. Of course, I suppose it's hard to categorize something as well-established "common knowledge" if you refuse such knowledge for its lack of conformity with your ideological assumptions. That refusal crops up again and again in public debate: over global warming, over evolution, and no less notably over GWB. The fact that he purported to speak and act in God's name on behalf of our nation somehow didn't save him from making a variety of catastrophic mistakes and missteps.

Steve

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857548 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:33 PM
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Shiro Ishii was a Japanese scientist who conducted experiments on prisoners. As I recall he ran their bio-warfare program, and their "work" resulted in the deaths of hundreds (maybe thousands). I don't remember now if he did the hypothermia work also (there is disagreement to this day whether or not it is "ethical" to use the hypothermia data gathered by the Japanese during the war because of their using POWs). I'm pretty sure it was the same unit, even if he wasn't involved in it. I know he infected people (not just POWs) with various diseases, and then vivisected them to see the effects on their organs...without benefit of anesthesia.

For those who want to google further, Ishii ran Unit 731 in Manchuria. It was responsible for Japanese research into bio-warfare.

Did you know that they STILL have the occasional outbreak of bubonic plague in that region? Even all these years later they still haven't been able to eradicate the effects of Ishii's 'flea bombs' and other things.

He was brought to the US to aid in our bio-warfare program after the war. He should have been tried and executed, IMO.

Much as Wernher von Braun was brought to the US to work on our rocket/missile program (if memory serves, he was directly responsible for what later because the Saturn V program). Not as egregious as Ishii, but there were some who thought von Braun should have faced trial as well.

If you're trying to use history to justify modern actions (specifically the torture of "detainees"), it won't fly. It sounds incredibly trite, but "two wrongs don't make a right". We were wrong to bring Ishii here, and we were wrong to torture detainees. There is nothing "right" that comes from this.


No. My point was twofold: 1) Ken's silly lament about "we used to be the bad guys" ignores the fact that 2) nation-states sometimes need to do what they need to do in moments of crisis.

As for waterboarding, if it's so bad then why do we do it to anybody who goes through SERE school?

PS> It's very likely we've found other ways to extract information from prisoners under Obama. It's the height of BDS to suggest otherwise.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857549 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:34 PM
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Rec paid for ID'ing Shiro Ishii, who, yes, got fully immunity after WWII despite his crimes.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857550 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:38 PM
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The answer is where you copied and pasted all this so called information from...It came from Michael Moore's Blog printed in 2004 to try and lend some credibility to his FOS movie FAHRENHEIT 9/11. It is probably why you did not supply a link. Even your side would laugh at the notion anything coming from Michael Moore is nothing more than skewed out of content MUS.

I took a look at his screed. What a pantload. You have to wonder whether he's got one of those rooms in his house that you see on the TV crime shows - you know, pictures of GWB with red ink all over them, newspaper clippings, etc.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857553 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:43 PM
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"It's in response to Ken' "We used to be the good guys" lament that really wasn't."

So change it to "We used to hold ourselves out as "The Good Guys," and publicly condemned others for State authorized torture of detainees/POWs."

Ken

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Author: SaintPatrick1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857554 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:45 PM
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his factual recitation about the Bush/Bin Laden ties is incontrovertible.

Actually it is ultra-controvertible.

It has been established by countless sources over many years.

So has the claim that it wasn't real airplanes that crashed into the WTC.



There is no doubt that the Bush family and the bin Laden family were involved in oil. The fact that they both were enriched by the oil business at one point in their lives doesn't make them incontrovertibly tied. At least no more than LBJ is incontrovertibly behind JFK's assassination.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857555 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:46 PM
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We used to be The Good Guys.

We've never been the so-called Good Guys. That is a myth that needs to die.

In fact, we are probably better now than we have ever been in our history.

We have always used the ends justify the means. The only thing that changes is the degree to which we will go and the techniques used.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857556 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:50 PM
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"War is war and that does include torture whether you want to admit it or not. Not that it is just ok, but rather it just is. Nature of the beast.

Exactly. Nailed it."

Assuming that things happen in a war that the participants might not feel exactly proud of whether or not sanctioned by higher ups in the chain of command, the "War On Terror" never was a real "war" against a sovereign state but instead law enforcement that involved deploying the military in furtherance of the apprehension of criminals and disruption of further criminal activities aimed at US citizens and US interests.

There is no place in US jurisprudence for torture as an acceptable tool for law enforcement.

Ken

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857558 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:51 PM
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So change it to "We used to hold ourselves out as "The Good Guys," and publicly condemned others for State authorized torture of detainees/POWs."

And we don't now?

Go read up on Preble's Boys. Or GI conduct during the occupation of the Philippines. Or many other things.

We're not perfect. But we are still better than everybody else out there.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857559 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:53 PM
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"We're not perfect. But we are still better than everybody else out there."

Golly. That's swell.

Ken

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857561 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:54 PM
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Assuming that things happen in a war that the participants might not feel exactly proud of whether or not sanctioned by higher ups in the chain of command, the "War On Terror" never was a real "war" against a sovereign state but instead law enforcement that involved deploying the military in furtherance of the apprehension of criminals and disruption of further criminal activities aimed at US citizens and US interests.

There is no place in US jurisprudence for torture as an acceptable tool for law enforcement.


Who said there was? The war on terror isn't a law enforcement operation. Which means not only can the gloves come, there aren't any gloves at all.

You think we're playing pat-a-cake with these people? You think there aren't people that wouldn't hesitate to blow up a day care center or fly a 747 into a football stadium full of people?

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857562 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 12:57 PM
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"Who said there was? The war on terror isn't a law enforcement operation. Which means not only can the gloves come, there aren't any gloves at all.

You think we're playing pat-a-cake with these people? You think there aren't people that wouldn't hesitate to blow up a day care center or fly a 747 into a football stadium full of people? "

I think it's crimes and law enforcement. It was never a "war."

Ken

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857565 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 1:04 PM
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richie says

I have little doubt that scores of American lives have been saved by this technique and it has been used in extreme rare circumstances.

I have a great deal of doubt about both of those propositions.


We live in a new world, where the next big attack could wipe out many thousands, if not a city and we KNOW, beyond a doubt, that there are people out there with just that intention.

I don't know any such thing, but I know people who fantasize about it and make it their excuse for all sorts of things.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857568 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 1:15 PM
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I think it's crimes and law enforcement. It was never a "war."

Okay, then. You tell me how many law enforcement operations involve killing US citizens with armed drone strikes.

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Author: jwiest Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857569 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 1:18 PM
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If you're trying to use history to justify modern actions (specifically the torture of "detainees"), it won't fly. It sounds incredibly trite, but "two wrongs don't make a right". We were wrong to bring Ishii here, and we were wrong to torture detainees. There is nothing "right" that comes from this.

Dope and his crew are always the first to seek some kind of moral equivalence argument they can use to justify their opinions and actions. The highest road they will take is the lowest road they can find evidence for, even if it doesn't directly relate to the issue at hand.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857571 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 1:24 PM
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"You tell me how many law enforcement operations involve killing US citizens with armed drone strikes."

This ONE.

Ken

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857572 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 1:25 PM
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...nation-states sometimes need to do what they need to do in moments of crisis.

No. They don't.

We didn't have to grant Ishii immunity.

We didn't have to infect black people with syphilis (without their knowledge).

We didn't have to round up all the Japanese-Americans.

We didn't have to torture detainees.

We don't have to refuse to declare them POWs, and yet refuse them due process that civilians would otherwise be entitled to (and, yes, Obama is culpable in this at this point).

The list is lengthy. Those are off the top of my head. Those are not the actions of a society that values justice and fairness. They show bigotry, cowardice, and terror. These are things tyrants do, not peoples who (allegedly) hold the values stated in the US Constitution.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857573 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 1:26 PM
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Dope and his crew are always the first to seek some kind of moral equivalence argument they can use to justify their opinions and actions.

ROTFL. So sayeth the "But, Booooosh...." crew.

Hey, pot - kettle wants to meet you.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857574 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 1:27 PM
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This ONE.

Oh! That settles it, then!
BTW. What does "Equal protection under the law" mean to you?

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857582 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 2:10 PM
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We've never been the so-called Good Guys. That is a myth that needs to die.
_______________________

We've often been the good guys. We have far more often than not, not been in wars of aggression, and we are helpful to the point of stupidity.

The fact that torture is a part of war? That when the decision to torture someone or let an unknown number of your own comrades due comes to the fore, it ain't much of a choice, when you know your particular enemy tortures the way you drink sodapop

We need to be careful with our myths. Some are more true than not.

When there is made up context and BS though it is good to call it that.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857587 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 2:19 PM
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dope: "Only partially correct. We weren't in the mood to TAKE any Japanese prisoners."

IMO, the above statement crosses the line from "wrong" and enters the realm of "making stuff up".

I just finished reading a series of WWII history books, including, but not limited to, "A Short History of WWII" by Stokesbury, "Second World War" by John Keegan, and "A World at Arms" by Weinberg. They all describe gruesome battles in great detail at Peleliu, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and throughout the Carolines, Marianas and Gilbert.

In all of those battles across the Pacific the Japanese soldiers fought to the death to an extreme not seen in any other theater - even to the point of committing mass suicides at the end of the battles by either attacking with bayonets after running out of ammunition, jumping off of cliffs when there was nothing left to fight with, or pretending to surrender and setting off grenades to kill their captors, or, in the case of pilots, dive bombing kamikaze attacks.

To cavalierly say, "we weren't in a mood to take prisoners" when in fact they were actually fighting to the death in almost every case, crosses the line from "not knowing history" and enters the realm of "making it up out of whole cloth".

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857591 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 2:26 PM
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but instead law enforcement that involved deploying the military in furtherance of the apprehension of criminals and disruption of further criminal activities aimed at US citizens and US interests.

I would bet there are a few people in Yemen that would disagree with you.

Well, not really, they died from drone attacks so they don't disagree with anyone any more.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857592 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 2:28 PM
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"I would bet there are a few people in Yemen that would disagree with you."

Please provide a link to the USA Congressional Declaration of War against Yemen, or even one by Yemen against the USA.

Ken

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857595 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 2:36 PM
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IMO, the above statement crosses the line from "wrong" and enters the realm of "making stuff up".


And this statement usually precludes a load of poo.

In all of those battles across the Pacific the Japanese soldiers fought to the death to an extreme not seen in any other theater - even to the point of committing mass suicides at the end of the battles by either attacking with bayonets after running out of ammunition, jumping off of cliffs when there was nothing left to fight with, or pretending to surrender and setting off grenades to kill their captors, or, in the case of pilots, dive bombing kamikaze attacks.

Funny. This doesn't contradict anything I said. English must not be your first language.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857599 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 2:52 PM
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"Ask yourself a question: Why were there very few Japanese POWs in WWII?"
Because they fought to the death and did not surrender.

Only partially correct. We weren't in the mood to TAKE any Japanese prisoners.


It's overwhelmingly correct. The main reason we didn't take many Japanese prisoners is that they very rarely surrendered. Did soldiers also kill some of the few Japanese prisoners who did surrender? Of course. That happens in all wars, as does torture. That it happens isn't an argument for it being legal, or for it being government policy.



You're upset that the government has the power to require people to buy health insurance, but think its a great idea to give it the power to torture people. There's something wrong with that.
---
Actually, what's upsetting is the continued use of dishonest words tricks by you.


What "word tricks?"

Do you deny being upset about the government having the power to require people to buy insurance?

You obviously support the government having the power to torture.

It seems to me that every time someone points out a glaring flaw in one of your arguments you cry "foul" or, actually, "fail." It's sort of like your intellectual escape hatch. Instead of acknowledging a point that undermines or destroys your argument, you simply declare it invalid for some ambiguous, made-up reason.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857600 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 2:54 PM
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To cavalierly say, "we weren't in a mood to take prisoners" when in fact they were actually fighting to the death in almost every case, crosses the line from "not knowing history" and enters the realm of "making it up out of whole cloth".

I have news for you, almost every infantry soldier is taught (verbally, not by written order), to shoot twice at each target on the ground as you take a position, even if they are not moving.

If you don't, you had to take them prisoner after you secured the position and give them care and treatment. While you were still securing it, they were considered still hostile and could be met with deadly force.

Nothing new about that idea.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857601 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 2:55 PM
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As for waterboarding, if it's so bad then why do we do it to anybody who goes through SERE school?

For the same reason they do mock assassinations at SERE and other hostage training courses, to psychologically prepare people for the possible depravity of their captors.

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Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 2:58 PM
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There is no place in US jurisprudence for torture as an acceptable tool for law enforcement.

The "soldiers do it anyway" argument for torture is mind-boggling.

Soldiers rape female civilians too, but it doesn't follow that it should be U.S. policy.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857604 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:06 PM
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It's overwhelmingly correct. The main reason we didn't take many Japanese prisoners is that they very rarely surrendered. Did soldiers also kill some of the few Japanese prisoners who did surrender? Of course. That happens in all wars, as does torture. That it happens isn't an argument for it being legal, or for it being government policy.

And who said it was? Again, the point was raised to counter a statement that Ken made. No matter how much obfuscating you try you won't be able to change that.

What "word tricks?" See above.

Do you deny being upset about the government having the power to require people to buy insurance? <-- Relevance, counselor? Oh, right. There isn't any.

You obviously support the government having the power to torture. I support waterboarding. I don't accept that waterboarding = torture. Stop trying to slip stuff past me; it won't work.

It seems to me that every time someone points out a glaring flaw in one of your arguments you cry "foul" or, actually, "fail." It's sort of like your intellectual escape hatch. Instead of acknowledging a point that undermines or destroys your argument, you simply declare it invalid for some ambiguous, made-up reason.

It seems to me that you're unable to mount an argument that's 1) relevant to something I said or 2) that fronts the point you want to make. I don't need any intellectual escape hatches.

The problem that you and every other lib on this forum is quite simple: every one of you tries so very hard to nail every rightie you can. But in so doing you forget to make an actual point or supply evidence to argue with. Instead you obfuscate (like above, where you're trying to take something I said to Ken and apply it where it wasn't intended to be applied) introduce irrelevant distractions (such as the false equivalence between opposing health care mandates and this subject) or use unsupported conclusions (such as categorically stating that waterboarding = torture without having established it as such) or poisoning the well (such as when you make me the issue instead of the issue).

It's not my fault that I'll point out this kind of BS first time, every time, and call you on it. My ability to absorb hits far outweighs yours and every other libs' on this forum to dish it out. It's futile. Just give up and make honest arguments from positions of fact and PA will be a far better place.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857605 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:07 PM
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Soldiers rape female civilians too, but it doesn't follow that it should be U.S. policy.

Good thing no one said or implied such, Commander Strawman.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857606 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:09 PM
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For the same reason they do mock assassinations at SERE and other hostage training courses, to psychologically prepare people for the possible depravity of their captors.

I see. So it's legal except when it's not legal. Perfect.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857607 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:20 PM
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By the by. Every Obama supporter on this board who whined about Bush and the war on terror is FOS.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857610 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:28 PM
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Please provide a link to the USA Congressional Declaration of War against Yemen, or even one by Yemen against the USA.

Thank you for proving my point.

No declaration of war, yet we are killing Yemenis and other country's civilians (including ours) that we believe might pose a threat to the US.

But hey, it's just "crimes and law enforcement."

Good thing some other "Good Guy" country isn't target our civilians that they think might harbor ill will toward them. I bet we would not term it "crimes and law enforcement."

Hawkwin
Pro "law enforcement" via Hellfire missles

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857611 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:34 PM
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Good thing some other "Good Guy" country isn't target our civilians that they think might harbor ill will toward them. I bet we would not term it "crimes and law enforcement."


Thanks for this. We'd never tolerate China hunting down some Falun Gong leader in Phoenix and taking him out with a rocket from a drone in the middle of a shopping mall. It's the converse case that blows away the "it's a law enforcement exercise" argument.

Once the premise that this is in fact a war - and thus outside the bounds of law - the question is begged: What is an acceptable tactic and how far are we willing to go? Clearly right now we have no compunction of assassination via drone strikes...even of American citizens.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857612 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:35 PM
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"No declaration of war, yet we are killing Yemenis and other country's civilians (including ours) that we believe might pose a threat to the US."

Which is a different issue than the use of torture on detainees/prisoners.

Ken

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857613 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:35 PM
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"By the by. Every Obama supporter on this board who whined about Bush and the war on terror is FOS."

FAIL!

Ken

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857614 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:43 PM
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Which is a different issue than the use of torture on detainees/prisoners.

Correct, as I stated earlier, the dead cannot complain or file a court case to be released.

Which is why we are killing them, I mean, "law enforcing" them, in a foreign country instead of reading them their rights and returning them for trial.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857615 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:43 PM
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FAIL!

And lacking in the ability to correctly "Fail" a post.

-dope, in education mode today.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857617 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:56 PM
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Which is a different issue than the use of torture on detainees/prisoners.

I'll go you one even better:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-01-01/world/36323571...

Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

The secret arrests and detentions came to light Dec. 21 when the suspects made a brief appearance in a Brooklyn courtroom.

The men are the latest example of how the Obama administration has embraced rendition — the practice of holding and interrogating terrorism suspects in other countries without due process — despite widespread condemnation of the tactic in the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

----------

More Good Guys to the rescue.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857618 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:56 PM
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Soldiers rape female civilians too, but it doesn't follow that it should be U.S. policy.
---
Good thing no one said or implied such, Commander Strawman.


I didn't say you said or implied it. It's not a straw man. It's an analogy.

Again, just because it is a fact of war that soldiers torture and rape, does not mean that torture and rape should be condoned or codified as U.S. policy.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857619 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 3:57 PM
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For the same reason they do mock assassinations at SERE and other hostage training courses, to psychologically prepare people for the possible depravity of their captors.
---
I see. So it's legal except when it's not legal. Perfect.


Huh?

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857620 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 4:12 PM
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I didn't say you said or implied it. It's not a straw man. It's an analogy.

It's an analogy used to create either a strawman or a false equivalence.

Again, just because it is a fact of war that soldiers torture and rape, does not mean that torture and rape should be condoned or codified as U.S. policy.

False equivalence it is!

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Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 4:38 PM
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It's overwhelmingly correct. The main reason we didn't take many Japanese prisoners is that they very rarely surrendered. Did soldiers also kill some of the few Japanese prisoners who did surrender? Of course. That happens in all wars, as does torture. That it happens isn't an argument for it being legal, or for it being government policy.

And who said it was?


Umm... you? Aren't you arguing that torture should be legal because (1) it works and (2) soldiers do it anyway? If not, what's your argument?



Again, the point was raised to counter a statement that Ken made. No matter how much obfuscating you try you won't be able to change that.

Change what? What point did Ken make that you're refuting? That Americans are usually the "good guys?" Do you really disagree with that? That'd be an unusual switch for you.



What "word tricks?"
---
See above.


That's an insufficient explanation tantamount to evasion. Nothing "above" is a "word trick."





Do you deny being upset about the government having the power to require people to buy insurance? <-- Relevance, counselor? Oh, right. There isn't any.

Of course there is relevance. You've claimed the government is too powerful in any number of respects, yet you want the government to have the power to torture prisoners of war. You've argued that the assumption of certain powers by the state, such as firearms regulation, amount to "tyranny" and "dictatorship," yet the power of imprisonment without due process and torture do not. That speaks directly to the basis of your political philosophy, its incoherency and your intellectual inconsistency. Contrary to your stated beliefs, it makes you seem to support authoritarian government, insofar as it doesn't directly affect you. Other people's rights vis-a-vis the state are conditional and negotiable, but not yours.



It seems to me that every time someone points out a glaring flaw in one of your arguments you cry "foul" or, actually, "fail." It's sort of like your intellectual escape hatch. Instead of acknowledging a point that undermines or destroys your argument, you simply declare it invalid for some ambiguous, made-up reason.
--
It seems to me that you're unable to mount an argument that's 1) relevant to something I said or 2) that fronts the point you want to make. I don't need any intellectual escape hatches.


Speaking of relevance, you brought up the fact that during World War Two, U.S. soldiers took few Japanese prisoners. Care to explain the relevance of that in a thread about torture?

For someone who doesn't need escape hatches, you sure use them a lot. "Fail."




The problem that you and every other lib on this forum is quite simple: every one of you tries so very hard to nail every rightie you can.

This betrays a Nemesis-like, misplaced sense of self-importance. No one is trying to "nail" you. You're not part of some heroic crusade against libs and lefties, bedeviling them at every encounter. You're playing a game you're not very good at and tossing the board every time someone beats you... and declaring victory. It's comical.



But in so doing you forget to make an actual point or supply evidence to argue with.

Your refusal to acknowledge points does not mean they haven't been made.


<i...introduce irrelevant distractions (such as the false equivalence between opposing health care mandates and this subject)...

I posited no equivalence between the two. Quite the contrary. I noted that to you the common power to tax is "tyranny," but that the extraordinary power to torture is not.


<i...or use unsupported conclusions (such as categorically stating that waterboarding = torture without having established it as such)...

Well, look at the thread title. That "torture" works, is being assumed in this discussion. If you want to rehash the "is waterboarding torture" debate, start another thread.


My ability to absorb hits far outweighs yours and every other libs' on this forum to dish it out.

Again, whether you realize it or not, you're playing the Black Knight.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857624 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 4:52 PM
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Change what? What point did Ken make that you're refuting? That Americans are usually the "good guys?"

No, that we used to be the Good Guys - as if anything that has occurred in the last 10 years is substatially different or worse than what we did previously in the history of our country.

That is what we are refutting; and why your rape comment is a strawman and isn't relevant, because we never used such as a means to justify the ends as we have with torture, detention, drone attacks, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, etc. etc.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857625 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 5:04 PM
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Change what? What point did Ken make that you're refuting? That Americans are usually the "good guys?"
--
No, that we used to be the Good Guys - as if anything that has occurred in the last 10 years is substatially different or worse than what we did previously in the history of our country.


Thanks for the clarification.

I don't know if you consider this substantially different or not, but until a few years ago, we did not publicly condone torture and it was not part of U.S. policy to torture prisoners. That we did, in fact, torture prisoners, both at the level of the individual battlefield soldier and in "black" intelligence operations is somewhat beside the point. I suppose a positive case could be made that, at least, the Bush administration dropped the pretense. But that's not the case being made here. Instead, it is "torture works, therefore it is okay."

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857627 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 5:38 PM
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By the by. Every Obama supporter on this board who whined about Bush and the war on terror is FOS.
__________________________

Just how FOS are the ones that claim our budget problems are due to tax cuts and the war?

There are so many issues that define them as utterly FOS, it is tough to keep count

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857628 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 5:41 PM
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Thanks for this. We'd never tolerate China hunting down some Falun Gong leader in Phoenix and taking him out with a rocket from a drone in the middle of a shopping mall. It's the converse case that blows away the "it's a law enforcement exercise" argument.
___________________________

In Obama's defense, it is hard to imagine the US harboring the Falun Gong and running interference to make following them impossible.

I do not agree with the death from the sky approach, but the analogous linkage does not work for me.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857632 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 5:48 PM
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Umm... you? Aren't you arguing that torture should be legal because (1) it works and (2) soldiers do it anyway? If not, what's your argument?

Go read the thread.

Change what? What point did Ken make that you're refuting? That Americans are usually the "good guys?" Do you really disagree with that? That'd be an unusual switch for you.

Go read the thread.


That's an insufficient explanation tantamount to evasion. Nothing "above" is a "word trick."


Explained already. Go read the thread.

Of course there is relevance. You've claimed the government is too powerful in any number of respects, yet you want the government to have the power to torture prisoners of war. You've argued that the assumption of certain powers by the state, such as firearms regulation, amount to "tyranny" and "dictatorship," yet the power of imprisonment without due process and torture do not. That speaks directly to the basis of your political philosophy, its incoherency and your intellectual inconsistency. Contrary to your stated beliefs, it makes you seem to support authoritarian government, insofar as it doesn't directly affect you. Other people's rights vis-a-vis the state are conditional and negotiable, but not yours.

Congratulations on a symphony of strawmen and nonsense. I've never used the word 'tyranny' here that I can recall. Nor 'dictatorship'. I think perhaps your arguing with someone else.

Further, your criticisms of me are another example of you poisoning the well. I don't have to respond that crap, so I'm not going to, other than to note that's why you're normally a permanent fixture in many conservatives' penalty boxes. Here's a hint: I could care less what your distorted view of my "political philosophy" is or is not.

Speaking of relevance, you brought up the fact that during World War Two, U.S. soldiers took few Japanese prisoners. Care to explain the relevance of that in a thread about torture?

Already have. 3 times now.


For someone who doesn't need escape hatches, you sure use them a lot. "Fail."


No. You're wrong. And being dishonest as usual.

Your refusal to acknowledge points does not mean they haven't been made.

You don't even know which poster you're referring to in this thread.

Again: you can make me, or Jedi, or whomever, the issue all you want. All it does is make you look like a jerk and doesn't advance your argument. Other morons here on this board love that stuff, which is why so many here do it.

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Author: richieds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857633 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 5:51 PM
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"I don't know any such thing,"


Post 9/11, you have doubts that there is an element out there that is intent on another big attack that could wipe out thousands?

In an age of biological and chemical weapons, you are confident that there is no element capable of procuring such weapons, maybe in the next 20 years, and having the willingness to use them on a major American city?

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857635 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 6:00 PM
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"No, that we used to be the Good Guys - as if anything that has occurred in the last 10 years is substatially different or worse than what we did previously in the history of our country."

Yes, de-evolution is a wonderful thing. We should no longer aspire to be better because once upon a time we were worse. I'm surprised you didn't use slavery or the destruction of the Native Americans to "prove" your point.

Ken

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857636 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 6:01 PM
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"Post 9/11, you have doubts that there is an element out there that is intent on another big attack that could wipe out thousands?"

Yes, criminals, not countries.

Ken

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857638 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 6:02 PM
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Yes, de-evolution is a wonderful thing. We should no longer aspire to be better because once upon a time we were worse. I'm surprised you didn't use slavery or the destruction of the Native Americans to "prove" your point.

It's not his fault that neither you or Felix has any grasp of US history. We HAVE been getting better and moving CLOSER to our ideals for years.

Post 9/11: Did we jail journalists by the thousands, like Woodrow Wilson did in WWI?

Or did we round up entire communities of Muslims and put them in internment camps, as we did in WWII?

The answer is NO on both counts.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857639 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 6:20 PM
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dope: "Only partially correct. We weren't in the mood to TAKE any Japanese prisoners."

IMO, the above statement crosses the line from "wrong" and enters the realm of "making stuff up".


You are 100% correct, jgc. It was a supreme disgrace in Japanese culture to surrender. The bushido was alive and well at the time. It's also why they treated prisoners so badly: only sub-humans would surrender. If you surrendered you didn't deserve to be called a soldier, and they had nothing but contempt for you. The Japanese would dig-in and fight until they could fight no more, generally forcing us to kill them. This pattern was repeated over and over as we hopped from island to island. It's what made some battles in the PTO so much more brutal than in the ETO. The Germans would surrender. So we didn't have to literally dig them out one by one. The Japanese wouldn't, and you didn't want to bypass them such that they were BEHIND you as you advanced. So you had to get every last one of them. Even then, we did miss a few. I had to look up the name, but as late as the 70s we have confirmed captures of Japanese soldiers still fighting. One of them, Private 1st Class Kinshichi Kozuka, was actually killed in a shootout with Philippine police because he would not surrender. His companion, Lieutenant Hiroo Onoda, also did not surrender, but they brought in their former commander to relieve him of duty (so they could remove him peacefully, and alive). As I recall the lieutenant received a hero's welcome, and is probably the most famous "holdout".

Westerners mostly don't get it, and sometimes don't believe it. But that was their culture. Radically different from Western culture and traditions.

Just a point of clarification, I'm not aware of any "jumping off cliffs" except on Okinawa. Those were civilians who had been propagandized into believing that US soldiers would rape and kill all the women, toss babies around on bayonets, and even literally eat them (cannibalism). So as we took the island and the Japanese "protection" was peeled away, some out of shear panic flung themselves (and their children) from cliffs. It wasn't Japanese soldiers, however.

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Author: richieds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857641 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 6:27 PM
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"Yes, criminals, not countries."


Which plays right into their hands. We don't live in an age where armies must meet armies in the battlefield.
We live in an age where our enemies can fund, arm and support groups like Al Qaeda to do their dirty work.

It is naïve to believe that Al Qaeda was just a bunch of criminals who happened to live in Afghanistan.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857647 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 6:34 PM
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Umm... you? Aren't you arguing that torture should be legal because (1) it works and (2) soldiers do it anyway? If not, what's your argument?

Go read the thread.


More evasion? You should be able to succinctly state your own argument. I've already said what it appears to be, based on what you've written so far in the thread.


Change what? What point did Ken make that you're refuting? That Americans are usually the "good guys?" Do you really disagree with that? That'd be an unusual switch for you.

Go read the thread.


Again, evasion. It's a yes or no question. Why won't you answer it?


Again: you can make me, or Jedi, or whomever, the issue all you want.

Umm... Jedi? What's he got to do with it? And I'm not trying to make you the issue. You are the one claiming some special lib-slayer status. I and other are refuting your arguments. And when we do, you (1) pretend they weren't your arguments (but won't say what point you were making), (2) start calling people names (3) play the martyr, and (4) declare "victory."

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857648 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 6:39 PM
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You are 100% correct, jgc.


No, he's not.

Ahem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_prisoners_of_war_in_Wo...
Allied military personnel were reluctant to take Japanese prisoners at the start of the war. US forces were generally unwilling to accept the surrender of Japanese during the first two years of the war due to a combination of racist attitudes and anger at Japan's sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and atrocities committed against Allied troops.[16][23] Australian soldiers were also reluctant to take Japanese prisoners for similar reasons.[24] Incidents in which Japanese troops booby-trapped their dead and wounded or pretended to surrender in order to lure Allied troops into ambushes were well known within the Allied militaries and also hardened attitudes against seeking the surrender of Japanese on the battlefield.[25] As a result, Allied troops believed that their Japanese opponents would not surrender and that any attempts to surrender were deceptive;[26] for instance, the Australian jungle warfare school advised soldiers to shoot any Japanese troops who had their hands closed while surrendering.[24] Furthermore, in many instances Japanese soldiers who had surrendered were killed on the front line or while being taken to POW compounds.[27] The nature of jungle warfare also contributed to prisoners not being taken, as many battles were fought at close ranges where participants "often had no choice but to shoot first and ask questions later".[28]

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857650 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 6:45 PM
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More evasion?

No. Go read the thread.

Going to skip to the end now:
And I'm not trying to make you the issue.
ROTFL. Lie.

You are the one claiming some special lib-slayer status. I and other are refuting your arguments.

My status of being a lib-slayer is because of my being able to (quite easily, as it happens) shoot holes in what you and others posts. Don't like it? Up your game.

Take this thread. I made a simple statement of fact, that the allies captured fewer Japanese because we weren't always in the prisoner taking mood. Several libs jumped and cried BS without bothering to do any research on the issue. But lo and behold, they turned out to be wrong. As usual. Since you'll claim never to have seen any evidence, here it is again for you:

Allied military personnel were reluctant to take Japanese prisoners at the start of the war. US forces were generally unwilling to accept the surrender of Japanese during the first two years of the war due to a combination of racist attitudes and anger at Japan's sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and atrocities committed against Allied troops.[16][23] Australian soldiers were also reluctant to take Japanese prisoners for similar reasons.[24] Incidents in which Japanese troops booby-trapped their dead and wounded or pretended to surrender in order to lure Allied troops into ambushes were well known within the Allied militaries and also hardened attitudes against seeking the surrender of Japanese on the battlefield.[25] As a result, Allied troops believed that their Japanese opponents would not surrender and that any attempts to surrender were deceptive;[26] for instance, the Australian jungle warfare school advised soldiers to shoot any Japanese troops who had their hands closed while surrendering.[24] Furthermore, in many instances Japanese soldiers who had surrendered were killed on the front line or while being taken to POW compounds.[27] The nature of jungle warfare also contributed to prisoners not being taken, as many battles were fought at close ranges where participants "often had no choice but to shoot first and ask questions later".[28]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_prisoners_of_war_in_Wo...

There you go. You and team lib have done nothing in thread except raise strawmen and try your usual tactics.

Your last couple of sentences lead me to conclude you really aren't interested in actually reading this thread and what was typed. Making it up as you go along is much more fun.

PS. Never argue WWII history with me. You'll lose 99/100 times.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857664 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 7:40 PM
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My status of being a lib-slayer is because of my being able to (quite easily, as it happens) shoot holes in what you and others posts. Don't like it? Up your game.

I don't know how to put this a nice way, Dope. You're delusional.



Take this thread. I made a simple statement of fact, that the allies captured fewer Japanese because we weren't always in the prisoner taking mood. Several libs jumped and cried BS without bothering to do any research on the issue. But lo and behold, they turned out to be wrong. As usual. Since you'll claim never to have seen any evidence, here it is again for you...

Bizarre. What does this have to do with torture? Nothing. Yet you accuse others of diversion and fogging the issue. Does it refute the contention that "we used to be the good guys?" No. Even if it did, so what?

No one cried "BS" about U.S. soldiers taking few Japanese prisoners. Instead, they said, correctly, that your point was off-topic and overstated. The reason the U.S. took so few Japanese prisoners was overwhelmingly due to the fact that the Japanese rarely surrendered, not because of the "mood" of American soldiers.

This is an example of how you "slay" lib arguments that no lib has made. The lib argument in this thread is that (1)torture rarely, if ever, produces info that can't be obtained by other means, and (2) that it is in any event unethical and should be illegal. You haven't even addressed those points, let alone "slayed" them. Instead you ran off on some tangent about Japanse prisoners of war. And you even managed to be wrong about that.

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857668 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 8:02 PM
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richie says

Post 9/11, you have doubts that there is an element out there that is intent on another big attack that could wipe out thousands?

There might be or there might not.


In an age of biological and chemical weapons, you are confident that there is no element capable of procuring such weapons, maybe in the next 20 years, and having the willingness to use them on a major American city?

There might be or there might not. Your claim was that we KNOW there is; in fact we don't. But if we convince each other that it is a sure thing, that serves a lot of agendas.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857670 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 8:05 PM
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Bush Derangement Syndrome, apparrently an uncurable mental disorder suffered by liberals.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857672 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 8:06 PM
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Waterboarding is not torture.

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Author: MissEdithKeeler Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857673 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 8:11 PM
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Bush Derangement Syndrome, apparrently an uncurable mental disorder suffered by liberals.


You need a new meme.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857674 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 8:11 PM
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I don't know how to put this a nice way, Dope. You're delusional.


Thanks. You lose, by the way. Unable to make an argument or drive home a point, you have to resort to insults.

Bizarre. What does this have to do with torture? Nothing.

Because it was in response to another poster's statement. You jumped in and tried all kinds of things to do...something, I'm not exactly sure what besides wasting TMF bandwidth.

But keep on being you. In all the years we've interacted with one another it always comes down to posts like what you've made in this thread. This is why 99.5% I don't bother to reply to you: I know going in you're not interested in an honest discussion of any kind. You're here to label people and nothing else. Good luck with that.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857678 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 8:23 PM
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Libs crack me up. They live their entire lives based upon the ends justify the means - any means to achieve their socialist utopian fantasy - which is really a ruse, they don't care one whit about people, they care only to control people and to tell them how they should live their lives. They are the smartest people on the planet and the unwashed masses can't be trusted to manage their own lives.

Waterboarding should be right up their alley, the ends justify the means. But instead they have misplaced and faux compassion for terrorists.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

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Author: richieds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857680 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 8:29 PM
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"Your claim was that we KNOW there is; in fact we don't."


Well, we have a group of militants that have TOLD us what their intention is.
We also know that this same group of militants was responsible for carrying out the 9/11 attacks.
You put two and two together and the only question is whether or not they ever have the capability of carrying out this attack.

So, on the question of intent and desire, yes, I have no doubt whatsoever.

We can argue the question of capability but I'd rather than be proactive and assume that, in this day and age, if a group as well funded as Al Qaeda and it's satellites has the intent, they will, eventually, have the means.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857706 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 9:36 PM
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"It is naïve to believe that Al Qaeda was just a bunch of criminals who happened to live in Afghanistan. "

And it was stupid as hell to believe that they happened to live in Iraq (if not plain out criminally fraudulent to insist), or otherwise had a Saddam connection.

Ken

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857707 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 9:38 PM
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"Allied military personnel were reluctant to take Japanese prisoners at the start of the war. US forces were generally unwilling to accept the surrender of Japanese during the first two years of the war due to a combination of racist attitudes and anger at Japan's sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and atrocities committed against Allied troops."

Which still has nothing to do with the use of torture being green lit by the chain of command 50 years later.

Ken

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857708 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 10:00 PM
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You lose, by the way. Unable to make an argument or drive home a point, you have to resort to insults.

I made an argument. You ignored it, went off on a tangent about Japanese POWs and declared yourself king of the "lib-slayers." That's delusional. It's not an insult. It's a diagnosis.


...it was in response to another poster's statement.

that statement being that we Americans were once considered "the good guys," a statement with which you presumably agree. So what is your point in pretending to refute it?


You jumped in and tried all kinds of things to do...something, I'm not exactly sure what

This is why 99.5% I don't bother to reply to you: I know going in you're not interested in an honest discussion of any kind. You're here to label people and nothing else.

I'm sure you have no idea how unselfaware and how ironic that statement is. I'm trying to engagage you in honest discussion by asking you to clarify your meaning, your intentions and to answer simple yes-no questions. You refuse to engage, probably because you know that to do so demonstrates the illogic or inconsistency of your positions. So instead, you shout "fail," "you lose" and other such nonsense, and tell yourself I'm "not worth talking to." But it's not just me. You play this odd game with many people here.

And some "lib-slayer" you are, running away 99.5% of the time.


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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857713 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 10:21 PM
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Waterboarding is not torture.

Keep telling yourself that.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857716 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 10:23 PM
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Waterboarding is not torture.

Keep telling yourself that.


The US prison system is torture


Bears

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857719 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 10:37 PM
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Libs crack me up. They live their entire lives based upon the ends justify the means - any means to achieve their socialist utopian fantasy - which is really a ruse, they don't care one whit about people, they care only to control people and to tell them how they should live their lives. They are the smartest people on the planet and the unwashed masses can't be trusted to manage their own lives.

Waterboarding should be right up their alley, the ends justify the means. But instead they have misplaced and faux compassion for terrorists.

____________________________


http://boards.fool.com/but-i-only-see-two-options-quotlegalq...

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Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857722 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/4/2013 10:55 PM
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"As for waterboarding, if it's so bad then why do we do it to anybody who goes through SERE school?"

The answer to this has been explained to you many times before. What do you hope to accomplish by ignoring all of those previous explanations? Do you think they will just go away?

For the 103,962,735th time for you to ignore, SERE training is voluntary.

If assulting people is so bad then why do we let MMA fighters and boxers do it to each other?

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857731 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 12:40 AM
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I made an argument.

No you didn't. You jumped into a response I gave to ken.

You ignored it, went off on a tangent about Japanese POWs and declared yourself king of the "lib-slayers."

Actually, you brought it up. I just rolled with it:
http://boards.fool.com/pannetta-torture-info-used-to-find-bi...
And I'm not trying to make you the issue. You are the one claiming some special lib-slayer status. I and other are refuting your arguments. And when we do, you (1) pretend they weren't your arguments (but won't say what point you were making), (2) start calling people names (3) play the martyr, and (4) declare "victory."

You made this part up out of whole cloth.

that statement being that we Americans were once considered "the good guys," a statement with which you presumably agree. So what is your point in pretending to refute it?

I wanted to bring up a historical point. You went off on a tear and read far too much into it.


You jumped in and tried all kinds of things to do...something, I'm not exactly sure what


Make a historical point. You need to take a step back. If I had created a doppel seemingly unconnected to me and made the same point, no one would have raised an objection to it.

I'm trying to engagage you in honest discussion by asking you to clarify your meaning, your intentions and to answer simple yes-no questions. You refuse to engage, probably because you know that to do so demonstrates the illogic or inconsistency of your positions. So instead, you shout "fail," "you lose" and other such nonsense, and tell yourself I'm "not worth talking to." But it's not just me. You play this odd game with many people here.

Actually, you're the one who started off with 'Fail'. There goes that data point for you. I said "you lose" when you said you didn't want to make it personal then insisted on calling me 'delusional'. You bring what you get on to yourself.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857750 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 8:59 AM
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Yes, de-evolution is a wonderful thing.

You get what you vote for. I point you to the front page of Time this week and the memo released last night detailing the authorization of the murder or US citizens abroad if we think they might one day commit acts of terror.

But it is the possibility of tortue that has your panties in a bunch.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857751 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 9:05 AM
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"But it is the possibility of tortue that has your panties in a bunch. "

Oddly enough, it's the subject matter of this thread.

Heed your own panties, whydontcha?

Ken

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857752 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 9:09 AM
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No you didn't. You jumped into a response I gave to ken.

That was one post. And it was a response to a question: "Why were there very few Japanese POWs in WWII?" If you want to have a private conversation, use e-mail.


I wanted to bring up a historical point. You went off on a tear and read far too much into it.

C'mon. Be honest. You didn't just toss out a random historical point. You thought it had some relevance to the question of torture, the subject of the discussion.


If I had created a doppel seemingly unconnected to me and made the same point, no one would have raised an objection to it.

You're playing the martyr again. No one objects to your point. They merely questioned its relevance.


Actually, you're the one who started off with 'Fail'.

Are you kidding? In this thread maybe. But I was making fun of your constant use of "fail" as a show stopper.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857753 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 9:19 AM
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You get what you vote for. I point you to the front page of Time this week and the memo released last night detailing the authorization of the murder or US citizens abroad if we think they might one day commit acts of terror.


Not in favor of this, but you're leaving out a few important details. The target has to be (1) an imminent threat, (2) impractical to apprehend, and (3) a member of al Qaeda or some affiliated terrorist organization. In other words, you can plot your terror attack on the U.S. in a Paris bistro without fear of assassination. They'll simply arrest you.

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Author: jwiest Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857770 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 10:19 AM
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This is an example of how you "slay" lib arguments that no lib has made.

Dope: the Don Quixote of Motley Fool.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857779 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 10:37 AM
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The target has to be (1) an imminent threat, (2) impractical to apprehend, and (3) a member of al Qaeda or some affiliated terrorist organization.

LOL, I love it when you guys bend over backwards to excuse this stuff when it is one of your own.

Let me guess, you haven't read the memo yet?

"the condition that an operational leader present an "imminent" threat of violent attack...does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on US persons and interests will take place in the immediate future.

more...

"capture would not be feasible if it could not be physically effectuated during the relevant window of opportunity or the relevent country were to decline to consent to a capture operation. Undue risk to US personal...could also be relevant"

In other words, if we might put US personal in danger or if the host country forbids capture (yet they allow us to kill them?!?), then the only recourse is kill. Of course, if we never put boots on the ground in the area of operations, it will ALWAYS be physically unfeasible to capture over kill.

I find it even more laughable that the administration used Hamdan v Rumsfield as part of their defense.

Now that both parties have defended this practice, it will become accepted US policy for decades to come.


Hawkwin
Pro "law enforcement" via Hellfire missiles

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857786 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 10:46 AM
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"the condition that an operational leader present an "imminent" threat of violent attack...does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on US persons and interests will take place in the immediate future.


If Bush had done this they'd be screaming for impeachment. Obama? Why, that's just good thinking!

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857788 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 10:49 AM
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C'mon. Be honest. You didn't just toss out a random historical point. You thought it had some relevance to the question of torture, the subject of the discussion.

It is as I said it was. Nothing more.

You're playing the martyr again. No one objects to your point. They merely questioned its relevance.

Mmmm. Not quite.

Are you kidding? In this thread maybe. But I was making fun of your constant use of "fail" as a show stopper.

I use 'Fail' because...left wing 'arguments' (I use that term loosely) are made from it. When someone screws up I explain why.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857797 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 11:13 AM
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Take this thread. I made a simple statement of fact, that the allies captured fewer Japanese because we weren't always in the prisoner taking mood.

From your link:

The number of Japanese soldiers, sailors and airmen who surrendered was limited by the Japanese military indoctrinating its personnel to fight to the death,...

I see how you just gloss over (or ignore) that bit. That was by far the dominant reason.

Do troops sometimes not bother to take prisoners? Sure. But to imply that was the primary reason (in the PTO) is absurd, and not defensible. In the ETO I might buy it.

P.S. Never argue WWII with me. Period.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857802 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 11:21 AM
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I see how you just gloss over (or ignore) that bit. That was by far the dominant reason.


Hence my statement of "partially correct" earlier in the thread.

P.S. Never argue WWII with me. Period.

You're ON, cowboy. Anytime. Although I suspect we'd agree more than disagree :)

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857813 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 11:55 AM
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Although I suspect we'd agree more than disagree :)

Yeah, probably.

Facts are facts. If you know them, then we're bound to agree. :-)

But the public usually doesn't know them, and WWII history isn't generally emphasized in school. Pearl Harbor, D-Day, a few things like that. I still have to correct people who think a Japanese bomb when down the smoke stack of the Arizona (it didn't), or that no mini-sub made it into the Harbor (there are photos and other indications that at least one did), etc. The nuances and context in which we opted to use Little Boy is unknown to most.

Such a pivotal event that has had such major effects on the world we live in today, and folks don't know diddly about it. Which is what I'm used to dealing with (whenever the subject comes up).

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Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 12:10 PM
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The target has to be (1) an imminent threat, (2) impractical to apprehend, and (3) a member of al Qaeda or some affiliated terrorist organization.
---
LOL, I love it when you guys bend over backwards to excuse this stuff when it is one of your own.


Umm... I'm not excusing it. I'm describing it. I think it's outrageous.

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Author: wolsey1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857823 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 12:27 PM
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In other words, you can plot your terror attack on the U.S. in a Paris bistro without fear of assassination. They'll simply arrest you.


Just as we predicted in 2002, we're now further along the slippery slope to when they won't bother with the arrest...they'll just kill you and everyone nearby.

And without any oversight or accountability.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857843 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 1:18 PM
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1pg: "But the public usually doesn't know them, and WWII history isn't generally emphasized in school"

You got that right. I knew little or nothing about WWII beyond a couple of dates and Dad's stories prior to our tour of the cliffs of Normandy in September of 2011. When I got back, I started reading the U.S.-centric stuff like the 1959 classic on D-Day by Cornelius Ryan, followed Band of Brothers, Citizen Soldiers, other stuff by Stephen Ambrose, Unbroken, American Caeser, Merrill's Marauders, and then general histories by Stokesbury, Keegan and Weinberg.

I knew nothing of the savagery of the Pacific theater as compared to the European theater.

I also had little or no inkling of how much more massive the eastern front between Russia and Germany was in terms of the millions upon millions of deaths and suffering that made the western front pale by comparison.

Nor did I know about the savagery of the eastern front due to Hitler's Commissar's order to kill "slavs, jews and bolshevik agitators" by the SS after capture, combined with Stalin's willingness to have the NKVD gun down his own soldiers if they faltered, fled or surrendered.
I just finished "Stalingrad" on the 70th anniversary of the final surrender at Stalingrad.

I think my next step is to learn more about Barbarossa. I have my eye on "Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East (Cambridge Military) or "Ostfront" by I forget who.

I am open to suggestions since I am a 57 year old who did not major in history.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857858 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 1:55 PM
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Umm... I'm not excusing it. I'm describing it.

No, you are trying to minimize it by providing, as you stated, "a few important details," when the details are what actually makes it outrageous.

Disingenuous as best.

Taofelix (you) on the subject of torture
http://boards.fool.com/there-is-no-looking-the-other-way-one...

One way or the other, this is going to end unpleasantly for Bush, Cheney and a few other people in the torture chain of command. At the very least, they'll be international pariahs, vulnerable to arrest in many foreign countries, even in places like the U.K., once charges are filed in any European nation.

One of the usual preconditions for an international tribunal for handling matters like this is the failure of the suspects' home country's legal system to address the charges. What an embarrassment that would be, the failure of the much vaunted U.S. legal system, supposedly one of the best in the world, to bring these men and women to justice. That'd be even worse, I think, than the shame of permitting the abuse of power, the gross violation of long-held American principles and law.

---------

Feel the same way about the Obama administration now, do you?

I love this little nugget of your's further down the thread:

Personally, I don't believe that Bush, Cheney et al should be prosecuted for their policy blunders. I think they should be prosecuted for the crimes they committed in pursuit of and support of those policy blunders.

---------

Good thing for Obama that we will never have evidence of such blunders.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857863 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 2:18 PM
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I am open to suggestions since I am a 57 year old who did not major in history.

You may want to glance over WW1.

You can see why the Middle East is the Middle East .... All of what we call the Middle East, from Turkey on, was part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3g_2_5VEGro/TV3fkpytp6I/AAAAAAAAAA...

Turkey sided with Germany, and when the Germans lost, England and France cut the Empire into the countries we have now.

That is why one country may have two different religions, three different ethnic groups (Persians, Arabs, Kurdish)

The war itself had both an Eastern and Western front as in WW2 plus the front in Turkey. Hungary was a huge Empire at that time too (Austria/Hungarian Empire) and were very active in the war.

Good stuff

Bears

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Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 2:41 PM
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Umm... I'm not excusing it. I'm describing it.
---
No, you are trying to minimize it by providing, as you stated, "a few important details," when the details are what actually makes it outrageous.


You're not making sense. If the details enhance the outrageousness of it, then how does my noting them "minimize" anything?

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1857898 of 1947623
Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 2:57 PM
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I didn't major in history either. I just took an interest in WWII when I was 11 or 12. Something about it intrigued me. My home library is composed mostly of science textbooks, science fiction, and WWII books.

Not a book, but I can highly recommend the series "World at War". Produced by the BBC, narrated by Olivier.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071075/

They neither horrify nor glorify, they just tell it like it was. With sometimes-graphic footage. Multiple episodes, including coverage of Barbarossa (of course). Probably the best documentary series out there on the War. Others tend to glorify too much (and are too US-centric), IMO.

I read a few books in my youth on Barbarossa. I don't remember which ones now. If you've got a good book they should discuss, at least briefly, how Barbarossa was delayed because of Mussolini. He was attempting to conquer Greece and the Balkans (Yugoslavia), and did not do well. Hitler had to bail him out by invading in May of '41. Greece fought only briefly, then surrendered before the Germans could pound Athens (but not before thousands of allied troops evacuated to Crete, which led to a major battle featuring German paratroopers). Yugoslavia didn't last much longer, really.

But, at least partially because of this, Barbarossa was delayed until June. It is significant because Hitler was within sight of Moscow when winter hit. If he'd started in May....???

That's the sort of thing that really gets me going about the War. All the "what ifs". What if Mussolini had been successful, or hadn't invaded at all. What if the Tone's catapult didn't malfunction at Midway. Etc.

1poorguy

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Subject: Re: pannetta: torture info used to find binladen Date: 2/5/2013 3:10 PM
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Feel the same way about the Obama administration now, do you?


No, and I can explain why not.

As bad a policy as this is, there's still a big difference between targeting a suspected terrorist for assassination and the torturing suspected terrorists once they're in custody. It's the difference between killing an enemy in battle and torturing a prisoner of war. I'd make a law enforcement analogy too, but albaby would pick it apart. :^)

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