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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 61275  
Subject: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/25/2010 8:12 PM
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In case you don't understand how Obamacare is paid for, here's an editorial cartoon that explains it:

http://blog.seattlepi.com/davidhorsey/archives/199109.asp
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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23717 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/27/2010 9:59 PM
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And this is why your cartoon is a pile of horse puckey:

http://kiplinger.com/infographics/health_care_spending/map.h...

Volucris

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23718 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/27/2010 10:25 PM
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The French and others tax their people 50-70% more..to pay for 'free' education for doctors.

That comes out of the GDP, but isn't shown as 'health care'

The French also likely pay for a lot of the clinics and hospitals out of other budgets or tax cuts......and that doesn't show up as 'health care costs' in their calculations.

Isn't it funny that most French have private insurance policies, above and beyond what the gov't provides.

oh, no one told you the French have to pay part of each medical bill..no $10 co pays...likely 30 bucks out of $100 paid from the citizens pockets or via the 'additional insurance' they carry to cover most fo the $30 per hundred the gov't doesn't pay.

We got too many people now with $10 co pays who go running to the doc for a splinter or cold......

t.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23719 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/27/2010 10:54 PM
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"We got too many people now with $10 co pays who go running to the doc for a splinter or cold......" - tele
--------------------------------------------

Tele I'm sorry but that is a very ignorant thing to say. Why would you say something like that? Sure you know better? Doctors don't want us self diagnosing ourselves.

There are very many diseases that mimic one another and the average person isn't knowledgeable enough to differentiate between a viral sore throat and strep throat. Strep can gravitate down into the internal organs and cause serious dammage.

"Just a splinter" can cause serious infection, septicemia, gangrene, etc. Remember the huge ulcer that Henry VIII had in his leg? That was causede by "just a splinter" that happened when he was jousting. It lasted for years and eventually killed him by causing heart dammage.

It is now thought that bad teeth and gums can cause low level bacterial septicemia ultimately turning into heart dammage, athelsclerosis, arterial plaque, etc.

A small discolored irregular mole or purplish red spot could be just skin irritation or it could be melanoma which is deadly. It's what killed my aunt Helen and she put off going to the doctor for 2 months because of a discolored place on her shoulder. It was melanoma. She was 72 years old.

A headache could be just a headache or it could be meningitis or a brain tumor.

I could go on and on. A cough could be just a cough or it could be lung cancer. Blood in the stool could be hemorrhoids or it could be colon cancer.

Art

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23720 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/27/2010 10:55 PM
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<<And this is why your cartoon is a pile of horse puckey:

http://kiplinger.com/infographics/health_care_spending/map.h......

Volucris
>>



I don't see that your chart answers the question at all. I think it's widely acknowledged that Obamacare does little to contain costs. It's mostly about expanding coverage to an additional thirty plus million people. However high American health care costs may be, that suggests they will be substantially higher still --- unless that fairy dust actually works.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23723 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/28/2010 2:32 PM
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I don't see that your chart answers the question at all.

As the US takes over more and more of health care (regardless of whether Obamacare had passed), it will be forced to contain costs. Eventually, the adoption of a health care system similar to Canada, Germany or France is inevitable. Obamacare was just the first but necessary step along the way.

The earlier we adopt a single payer system similar to Canada the better off we will be as a country, and the less we will have to spend for healthcare when we do it. However, there are many vested and well funded interests that must be overcome, not to mention sheer ignorance.

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Author: saunafool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23724 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/28/2010 2:46 PM
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tele,

Isn't it funny that most French have private insurance policies, above and beyond what the gov't provides.

oh, no one told you the French have to pay part of each medical bill..no $10 co pays...likely 30 bucks out of $100 paid from the citizens pockets or via the 'additional insurance' they carry to cover most fo the $30 per hundred the gov't doesn't pay.


My wife is French, we live in Luxembourg, and the medical system here is based on the French system.

The French system is public/private by design. It has been that way for decades. The public insurance is like Medicare with standard reimbursement rates at all medical facilities. Public hospitals and clinics will charge the standard rate. Private practices can charge whatever they want.

That is what the private insurance is for--it covers any medical service charges that are above the standard reimbursement rate. (For example, if you get hit by a bus in front of a private hospital.) It also pays for things like private hospital rooms.

If you are sick, you can go to any practice. If you do not have the supplemental insurance and go to a private practice, you will then have to pay approximately 30% of the cost (rough estimate of the price of private service over public).

You are correct about the co-pay. However, the price is 1 Euro (about $1.37). I think it is far too low, but that is what it is.

And about the supplemental insurance. The insurance companies cannot refuse people based on pre-existing conditions and they cannot drop you if you get sick. When we bought our supplemental insurance, we didn't even need to take a physical or show our medical records. For our family (early 40's, one child), we pay about 50 Euro per month for our private supplemental.

My wife's parents in France (mid 60's, good health, but moderate medical history for both) pay about 125 Euro per month ($180) for their supplemental insurance.

I can also say that the level of care in both Luxembourg and France is fantastic. If you are going to pick on a socialized health system, pick on the British. The French system absolutely rocks.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23725 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/28/2010 4:06 PM
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"The earlier we adopt a single payer system similar to Canada the better off we will be as a country, and the less we will have to spend for healthcare when we do it. However, there are many vested and well funded interests that must be overcome, not to mention sheer ignorance."
- volucris

-------------------------------


Is this where I get to cast my vote for the single payer system of healthcare? I figure the sooner we can get rid of the parasitic health insurance companies the better.

Artie

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23726 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/28/2010 4:58 PM
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<<The earlier we adopt a single payer system similar to Canada the better off we will be as a country, and the less we will have to spend for healthcare when we do it. However, there are many vested and well funded interests that must be overcome, not to mention sheer ignorance. >>



We are certainly a good many decades along on your program of reducing Americans to the status of being babies who must be cared for by parents.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23727 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/28/2010 5:29 PM
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"The earlier we adopt a single payer system similar to Canada the better off we will be as a country, and the less we will have to spend for healthcare when we do it. However, there are many vested and well funded interests that must be overcome, not to mention sheer ignorance. "

Canada has province by province health care system. Each province takes care of its own medical business and care...and raising the revenues to fund it.

care is uneven across the country.

But then tell me, why to the Canadian politicians always come to the US for the treatments they can't get in their own country?:?????curious minds want to know!

And why to regular canadians, if they can afford it, come across the border and pay for their care in the US, rather than wait for the 'free' but often year long wait for? ...curious minds want to know? WHen you have cancer and will be dead in six months or six weeks, a year wait or denied drugs is a death sentence.

Don't be in too much of a hurry to destroy the US health care system. Remember, they'll go after those 401Ks and IRAs to fund it......just like other countries have done. Give you some promise of an annuity with the money squirreled away in the same lock box that SS and Medicare money is kept at....joke joke....

Then the VAT.....to raise another 300 billion or more a year to fund all the 'social justice' programs. You'll be paying your own health care plus that for 2 or 3 others.



t.

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23730 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/28/2010 9:39 PM
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We are certainly a good many decades along on your program of reducing Americans to the status of being babies who must be cared for by parents.

What - by having a health care system that makes sense? Hardly.

As near as I can tell it is the GOP that are certainly acting like babies. Perhaps if they actually grew up and joined the debate something good might get done.

I won't wait underwater for that to happen though.

It's a shame really, but there it is.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23731 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/28/2010 10:41 PM
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<<Perhaps if they actually grew up and joined the debate something good might get done.>>



Republicans, conservatives, tea party members and others seem to have been participating in more of a debate on the issue than Democrats can handle without complaining about it.


I seem to remember Obama proclaiming that he wanted the health care issue resolved "before the August (2009) Cenogressional recess."


There wasn't enough debate to suit your taste?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23732 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 12:05 AM
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Republicans, conservatives, tea party members and others seem to have been participating in more of a debate on the issue than Democrats can handle without complaining about it.

http://gonzopolitique.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/tea-party-...

That is not "debating."

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23733 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 3:38 AM
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<<Republicans, conservatives, tea party members and others seem to have been participating in more of a debate on the issue than Democrats can handle without complaining about it.

http://gonzopolitique.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/tea-party-......

That is not "debating." >>



Of course it is. You just have a thin skin.


How many Nazi references did I see about George Bush during his Presidency?




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: saunafool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23734 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 4:00 AM
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How many Nazi references did I see about George Bush during his Presidency?

I am violating my rule to ignore any thread that brings the Nazis into it. However, equating health care reform to nazism is ridiculous.

The references during the Bush Administration were related to things like secret prison camps, holding American citizens without trial, torture, wire-tapping, and starting the war in Iraq--all things that can quite easily be associated with a totalitarian regime. It was over the top, and I ignored all "Nazi" threads back then too.

In the case of Obama, the Democrats have just passed a major overhaul to the private health insurance industry. There is NO public insurance, much less hospitals or doctors in the employ of the Federal government included in the plan.

It only has anything to do with the Nazis in the paranoid world of the Tea Party. It is the old "first step" argument--first, they reform the private health insurance, then they create a public option, then the public option is the only option, then they start loading the unproductive people into gas chambers because they can't afford it.

Meanwhile, all of Western Europe has had national health insurance since the end of WWII and somehow they have not drifted into totalitarianism. Instead, people in most Western European nations have a lifestyle on par with Americans, and over the past 30 years, they have been moving towards more free markets.

So, maybe you think it is debate, but it isn't a rational debate of reality. It's a debate about a hyper-paranoid vision of the future that has a very limited and unsupportable basis in history.

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Author: cgrinder Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23735 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 10:34 AM
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i am still mad about paying for not finding the weapons of mass destruction!

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Author: temsike Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23736 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 10:40 AM
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i am still mad about paying for not finding the weapons of mass destruction!

Me too. The Iraq War is a $3T game of "hide and go seek" that keeps on taking.

Why don't the Teabaggers complain about that? SP? Tele? The floor is all yours <grin>.

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Author: cgrinder Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23737 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 10:42 AM
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i just got off work and going to bed

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23738 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 11:08 AM
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<<The earlier we adopt a single payer system similar to Canada the better off we will be as a country, and the less we will have to spend for healthcare when we do it. However, there are many vested and well funded interests that must be overcome, not to mention sheer ignorance. >>


We are certainly a good many decades along on your program of reducing Americans to the status of being babies who must be cared for by parents.
Seattle Pioneer

-----


Way to prove the point!

Thanks

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23739 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 11:08 AM
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There wasn't enough debate to suit your taste?

Hmm. Hard to have a 'debate' with some who call others Socialistic Fasco-communists, or communistic social-fascists, with no idea what it means. Or equating a gay Jewish guy to Hitelr. Humorous, to say the least, but I wouldn't say it qualifies as 'debate'.

And then threatening to shoot everybody when losing. Classy move there.

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Author: champ9010 One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23740 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 11:43 AM
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There appears to be an absence of discussion on the merits of Obamacare in this thread. In my opinion, Obamacare is more about the role of government and less about the substance of healthcare. Much of the outrage over the bill has as much to do about the process of writing and passing it as well as the implications on the country of funding it.

It is inconceivable to me that our lawgivers would think they could construct this monstrosity and make it law and then be amazed and angry when people and businesses take the necessary steps to mitigate the damage it will cause to them as individuals or as a business.

I empathize with people who can not get affordable insurance because of preexisting conditions. However, what reasonable business person would insure a person for $1,000 / month if the known peril were multiples of this. The government probably does have a role in this situation, but it is not to ruin the private insurance market.

Craig

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23741 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 12:34 PM
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<<The references during the Bush Administration were related to things like secret prison camps, holding American citizens without trial, torture, wire-tapping, and starting the war in Iraq--all things that can quite easily be associated with a totalitarian regime.>>



Governments have had military forces and domestic security apparatus pretty much throughout history. So they all look like Nazis if that's what you want to look at. They are all things associated with prettty much any political regime.


<<It was over the top, and I ignored all "Nazi" threads back then too.>>


Well, that's fine. And I agree that the Nazi references are ridiculous. But they are a part of political rhetoric of the kind used to club your political opposition. As long as it is verbal or image clubbing and not actual clubbing, you can complain about it if you wish but you'll find your supporters doing much the same thing when a suitable occasion arises.


<<It only has anything to do with the Nazis in the paranoid world of the Tea Party. It is the old "first step" argument--first, they reform the private health insurance, then they create a public option, then the public option is the only option, then they start loading the unproductive people into gas chambers because they can't afford it.>>


This certainly isn't the "first step." We are many steps along that path to what the left likes to promote as a "right to health care." And the left quite openly proclaims it's goal and intention to obtain a "single payer" health care system.

So it's not unreasonable to criticize some of the right wing rhetoric, even though the natural rejoinder is that the left does much the same thing about different issues. Both the exaggerated rhetoric and the crocodile tears are a part of American politics.

If you can't stand the heat, as they say....



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23742 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 12:44 PM
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<<There wasn't enough debate to suit your taste?

Hmm. Hard to have a 'debate' with some who call others Socialistic Fasco-communists, or communistic social-fascists, with no idea what it means. Or equating a gay Jewish guy to Hitelr. Humorous, to say the least, but I wouldn't say it qualifies as 'debate'.>>



Sure it does, at least when the left uses that kind of rhetoric to attack the right, or the Bush administration in particular.


<<And then threatening to shoot everybody when losing. Classy move there. >>

Now here you identify the frontier of American political debate, I think. I think it's out of bounds to use or credibly threaten or tacitly encourage political violence.

Both the left and the right violate that standard some of the time, most commonly with the lefts "non violent disobedience" which often becomes violent (ala the Seattle World Trader riots) or the right with the Oklahoma City bombing, to cite examples.

Overblown right wing rhetoric along these lines deserves criticism, and I join in that criticism. But that's where the line is properly drawn, in my opinion.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23744 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 3:19 PM
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Name calling isn't a debate. A debate is the exchange of opposing ideas. The GOP is engaged in 'contradiction'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

Overblown right wing rhetoric along these lines deserves criticism, and I join in that criticism. But that's where the line is properly drawn, in my opinion.

Fair enough.

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Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23747 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 5:48 PM
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"How many Nazi references did I see about George Bush during his Presidency?'

That wasn't debate back then either.

Besides, most people learn in grade school that two wrongs do not make a right.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23748 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 6:22 PM
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<<"How many Nazi references did I see about George Bush during his Presidency?'

That wasn't debate back then either.

Besides, most people learn in grade school that two wrongs do not make a right. >>


Well, you are certainly entitled to have higher standards for political debate if you wish. I'm simply trying to define where I think the outer limits for acceptable political discussion may be.

Name calling and such is widely practiced in the political arena by left and right, in my experience. So are references to the Nazis ---in an earlier era one may have made references to The Devil.

It seems to me that those outer limits involve, or ought to involve, actual threats, violence, harassment, intimidation or efforts to incuite those kinds of behaviors.

As I noted earlier, even these standards are violated often enough by the left and right. At present the right is inciting acts of violence in objectionable ways, and at other times the left is often tolerant of their "non violent disobedience" which is intended to harass and disrupt the peace of the community and the right of innocent people to go about their daily business.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23749 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 3/29/2010 11:24 PM
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Ummm: Besides, most people learn in grade school that two wrongs do not make a right.

Reminds me of a story. It seems Mr. and Mrs. Wong had a baby. The baby came out white. Mr. Wong sputtered, "Two Wongs don't make a white!" She replied, "It was purly occidental."

Count Uptoten
... see also http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=28405592

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Author: xuincherguixe Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23765 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 4/3/2010 10:24 AM
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Canada has province by province health care system. Each province takes care of its own medical business and care...and raising the revenues to fund it.

care is uneven across the country.

But then tell me, why to the Canadian politicians always come to the US for the treatments they can't get in their own country?:?????curious minds want to know!


Sounds like someone has been getting their "facts" from Fox News.

Yes, some Canadians receive care in the United States. But did you know that many American's do the same?

Just ask Sarah Palin! Seems like our hospitals are good enough for your politicians too.


What the pundits don't tell you is that most Canadians like our Health Care system. We don't envy your system, we feel <em>pity</em>.

If you want to see what our real health care problems are, I suggest reading the CBC's website. They're not in the habit of bold face lying.


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Author: SuperLiberal Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23977 of 61275
Subject: Re: Paying For Obamacare Date: 4/25/2010 9:59 AM
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Silly. We'll pay for it by raising taxes on "The Rich." After all, they're getting enough from society!

Now, just who are "The Rich?" Well, anybody able to retire before the age of 60 is certainly rich...why should someone sponge off of society for longer than he or she worked and contributed? Applying social security and Medicare taxes to all income, not just earned income, is a start. Whys should someone's pension and investment income be exempt? Next up--a tax on the PRINCIPAL of savings. After all, it's for the good of society! It's not fair for "The Rich" to keep so much of society's money in their posession.

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