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Author: DarmaBumGary One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 22708  
Subject: Peace on earth Date: 12/15/2006 10:22 PM
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"slaughterhouses - faceless compounds where society conducts its dirty business of abusing and killing innocent, feeling beings.
These are our Dachaus, our Buchenwalds, our Birkenaus. Like the good German burghers, we have a fair idea of what goes on there, but we don't want any reality checks. We rationalize that the killing has to be done and that it's done humanely. We fear that the truth would offend our sensibilities and perhaps force us to do something. It may even change our life.

Slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz of the Humane Farming Association is a gut-wrenching, chilling, yet carefully documented, expose of unspeakable torture and death in America's slaughterhouses. It explodes their popular image of obscure factories that turn dumb 'livestock' into sterile, cellophane-wrapped 'food' in the meat display case. The testimony of dozens of slaughterhouse workers and USDA inspectors pulls the curtain on abominable hellholes, where the last minutes of innocent, feeling, intelligent horses, cows, calves, pigs, and chickens are turned into interminable agony."
Reviewed by Alex Hershaft, PhD
http://www.meat.org.uk/slaught.html
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Author: MitsouR Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12903 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/16/2006 4:17 PM
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Look DarmaBum - I support animal rights with all I have. I really believe that the way we treat animals in our industrialized system is shameful and horrid. I don't eat much meat in part for that reason (didn't used to eat any for years before having kids). Animals deserve humane treatment and I wish they got it. I pay extra for free range chicken eggs, organic meat, etc.

Still - I hotly reject ANY comparison between work/death camps that the Nazis set up to house/kill PEOPLE and slaughterhouses set up today to process animals.

Human life is infinitely more valuable (in my view) than animal life and no parallel that you try to draw between the two will get any sympathy from me.

MitsouR





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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12904 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/16/2006 4:57 PM
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Susan,

I hope this helps:
http://boards.fool.com/LastPosts.asp?limit=99&uid=46256283

Abe

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12907 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/16/2006 6:26 PM
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so darmabumguy, you come onto a Jewish board on Hannukah and Shabbas evening, and make a post comparing animal slaughterhouses to Dachau and Buchenwald.

Why would anyone but an asshole do something like that?


Dov

btw, Jack Kerouac is rolling in his grave cause you expropriated his name for your handle.

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Author: DarmaBumGary One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12925 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/17/2006 10:46 AM
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Still - I hotly reject ANY comparison between work/death camps that the Nazis set up to house/kill PEOPLE and slaughterhouses set up today to process animals.
++++++++++++++++++
"process animals"? you mean kill them.

It's great that you are sensitive to these issues. Justice and commpassion are values sadly lacking in the world. The link between nazi death camps and modern slaughterhouses was strongly made in the book Eternal Treblinka by C. Patterson an historian of the Holocaust:
http://www.powerfulbook.com/author.html
http://jewishveg.com/schwartz/interview.htm

The Title of the book comes from I.B. Singer's The Letter Writer: "In relation to them, all people are Nazis; for the animals it is an eternal Treblinka."



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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12931 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/17/2006 1:16 PM
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The link between nazi death camps and modern slaughterhouses was strongly made in the book Eternal Treblinka by C. Patterson an historian of the Holocaust:
http://www.powerfulbook.com/author.html
http://jewishveg.com/schwartz/interview.htm
===============

I categorically reject this argument, I dont care how many historians you quote. Trust me, I can find many survivors, historians and others who are withnes to events during the Holocaust, and they would be appalled at such a thing.

You can be against animal cruelty without diminishing the horror of the Holocaust. It is a disgusting comparison.

But this is not the first time someone has told this to you, is it? But you are deaf dumb and blind to the feelings of survivors and you just plow ahead like a bull in a china shop.

Am I wrong? Are Dorothy and I the first people who have ever told you they think the comparison is disgusting?


Dov

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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12934 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/17/2006 1:41 PM
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Do you guys don't get it? The vegetarian guy is jsut trolling. He usually leaves his 'message' on the Christian Fools board.

Abe

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Author: isophorone Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12939 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/17/2006 3:16 PM
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Are Dorothy and I the first people who have ever told you they think the comparison is disgusting?

Well, Dov, you beat me to the punch. I agree with you on this one.

You know, it's OK to be vegetarian for whatever reasons, whether health, personal ethics, etc. However, using Holocaust analogies is demeaning to survivors as well as to victims of genocide wherever is takes or has taken place.

It's very different from the reverse analogy, which is that genocide means treating humans like animals. This is what various totalitarian dictators, from Hitler, to Stalin, to Pol Pot, to Saddam Hussein, etc. were trying to do.

So by the analogy of slaughterhouses to Holocaust, does that mean that all animal slaughter and meat consumption should be banned?

Ron

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Author: IndecisiveFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12946 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/17/2006 5:14 PM
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Do you guys don't get it? The vegetarian guy is jsut trolling. He usually leaves his 'message' on the Christian Fools board.

I caught this thread on "Best Of". This poster goes from board to board with his animal rights message. As mentioned, he trolled the Christian Fools board. Before that, he was trolling the Everyday Ethics board where I occasionally post. TMF is pretty good at pulling his posts if you are offended.

IF

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Author: DarmaBumGary One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12948 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/17/2006 9:48 PM
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Why would anyone but an asshole do something like that?
Dov
btw, Jack Kerouac is rolling in his grave cause you expropriated his name for your handle


Please make an appointment for me at the correct time
to protest
injustice,cruelty and needless bloodshed.

"Buddha loved all sentient beings" said Kerouac, whose hero Saints and
Bodhisattvas: Teresa, Assisi, Avalokitesvara, are evoked in specific terms of compassion for animals, the vegetarian way cited as the ideal.
The term beat means to Kerouac a compassion for the weak and lowly, the "thin bum", and the [animals]" hung upside down and slowly bled to death by reverent ritual fools".
The Dharma bums, like Kerouac, Ginsberg and others flaunted convention,
howled criticism , had visions of Buddha in the streets of Denver. Some also turned away from western religions and became Zen monks, formed Zen centers, published cookbooks that spread vegetarianism.

I am appalled to see the increase in animal slaughter during the time many claim as the season of deep spirituality. I suspect you may too, and hence the animus.





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Author: LtUhura Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12951 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/17/2006 11:45 PM
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Have you no shame? Honest to Mike, have you absolutely no shame?

For the record, I am not Jewish, no big surprise there. I was, in my younger days, a Shabbat Goy. When I went to live with my aunt in Massachusetts, I found we were the only black people in the neighborhood. I was lonely and negotiating my own set of social landmines. On our street lived the Rabbi and the Cantor of the shul at the top of the street (we lived on a hill). One day, Auntie told me she volunteered me to work for the rabbi -- at no cost. The work was simple, go to his house on Friday and Saturday, turn on or off lights and the TV, make sure the doors were locked, run any errands he might need on Saturday, that sort of thing. I thought it was kind of stupid (especially for no pay), but I did it anyway.

The Rabbi's wife was a nice lady, plump and kind of dowdy, but nice in a motherly sort of way. Once she learned I liked latkes, she made sure there was a plate piled high with them waiting for me when I went over. She would talk to me on Fridays before sunset, when I went to her house after school. One day I commented on her bracelets, saying how much I liked them. See, the Rabbi's wife always wore broad bracelets, at least three inches wide, on her arm. That one day she took them off to show me her tattoos, a series of numbers. I was not unaware of the Holocaust. We had to read The Diary of Anne Frank and knew full well the horrors inflicted on an entire people by Hitler. Still, it a was an abstract until she showed me those numbers on her arm and took me through her house and showed me pictures of real people, her relatives, who went up in smoke during that terrible time. Seeing those numbers on the Rabbis' wife's arm, seeing those pictures of her murdered relatives, I broke down and cried. It was no longer abstract, it was so real I could hear the slaughtered's voices talking to me through the passage of time. She said something to me that made an impact on my entire life: "We have our Holocaust, your people have your Middle Passage. Forgive, but never forget."

The Rabbi's wife passed away about fifteen years ago. Every time I eat a latke I think of her. I can hear her voice and smell that perfume she always wore, if just for a second. And I can see those faded numbers on her arm, the ones she always covered with those pretty bracelets. I have one of them in my jewelry box. Her son gave me one after her funeral, but I can't bring myself to wear it.

Again I repeat, have you no shame? How dare you compare those dead to cows and pigs. Hitler compared the Jews to vermin, rats and mice. How are you any better?

Uhura

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12952 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/17/2006 11:59 PM
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Uhura,
Thank you for sharing and making such a profound post.

It is posts as such that make it feel worthwhile participating on the forums here.

Gary, I hope you read this and reflected back on your ignorant post( for your sake, I hope you were simply too ignorant for your own good).

Uhura, thank you again for sharing your story with us. It touched my heart more than you know.

Mark

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12954 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/18/2006 12:27 AM
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I know all about the dharma bums my friend, I was one, and I knew those guys. The last time I saw Alan was in Princeton six months before he died.

I can tell you this, they would think you are a fanatic, and someone who is so driven to impose his 'compassion' on everyone else, that he is deaf, dumb and blind to the signals he is getting from all everyone around him.

You know nothing of the real spirit of these people, rather, you have expropriated their language for your own purposes, using terms like 'compassion' and yet you act with anything but compassion. Sorry, but you would be a real drag to hang out with.


And you still havent apologized for the ham-handed and insensitive way you jumped into this board. You are so single minded and dense you probably dont even realize it how offensive your original post was, even though you have already been told.



The number of trolls who have invaded this board in the last few months is another real drag. I guess nothing ever really stays the same.

I should just shut up until you disappear. and you will disappear beccause you have no real interest in this board except to preach.


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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12955 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/18/2006 12:30 AM
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Holy crap, remind me never to piss you off:)

Mark

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12956 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/18/2006 12:35 AM
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lol, I'm cranky ...

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Author: WendyBG Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12977 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/18/2006 5:44 PM
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<LtUhura added to your Favorite Fools list >

Brilliant and deeply moving.

You might want to reconsider, and wear the Rebbitzen's bracelet. Perhaps on a happy holiday, such as Passover, the Jewish celebration of freedom (like African-Americans, Jews were slaves, too...except that our Middle Passage was the exodus from slavery, not the carrying into slavery).

If the Rebbizen cared so much for you that she willed you her bracelet, she surely meant for you to enjoy it.

Wendy


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Author: LovesChocolate Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 12980 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/18/2006 7:56 PM
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DarmaBum--

Something about reading your posts on this thread made me really hungry, so I just made an appointment to Outback Steakhouse.

I am looking forward to sinking my incisors into one of your best friends.

"No rules, just right."

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13000 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/19/2006 2:37 PM
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"How dare you compare those dead to cows and pigs. Hitler compared the Jews to vermin, rats and mice. How are you any better?"

Very well spoken. I too have a similar memory. For about the first 10 years of my life, I lived with my family in a small Northern NJ town. We lived in one of about 6 attached rowhouses. Very small, but cozy. Next door lived a Jewish family with children about our age: the father was always happy; the mother seemingly always cranky. I didn't ever think much about it, but she too had a faded concentraton camp tattoo on her arm. As a child, I never really understood the significence.

One Summer we moved, "down the shore," and lost touch with that family. Sadly we heard that a number of years later, that same woman - mother, wife, sister, child - committed suicide by hanging herself. We came to find out that the torment she carried from those concentration camp days was too much for her to bear. It was only as an adult that I could realize why she was the way I remember, and her resultant action.

To compare anyone's concentration camp experience to that endured by animals bred for food is ignorant and heartless.

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13001 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/19/2006 3:07 PM
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here is a story of a Holocaust survivor and his family. To compare the murder of his parents, little sister, aunts and uncles and cousins, in the most brutal of fashions, with what chickens go through is ... I dont know what the word should be.

But to couch that philosophy using terms like 'compassion', or to compare a slaughterhouse to a concentration camp ... well ... I wish people like that could spend 10 minutes in a concentration camp setting. If they survived that experience, they would know better.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=19878095&sort=recommendations



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Author: LtUhura Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13014 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/20/2006 8:37 AM
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Thanks, Wendy. I will think about it. I do get great enjoyment from the bracelet, I just have a little trouble actually wearing it. It's psychological, I know.

FYI, because I know you didn't mean any malice, comparing the Exodus to the Middle Passage is to me what the original post in this thread is to you. A closer comparison to the Exodus would be the Underground Railroad; it was no coincidence that Harriet Tubman's code name was Moses.

The Middle Passage (in case anyone's interested):
http://www.juneteenth.com/middlep.htm

Uhura

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13017 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/20/2006 9:51 AM
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thank you

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Author: WendyBG Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13026 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/20/2006 1:05 PM
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<I do get great enjoyment from the bracelet, I just have a little trouble actually wearing it. It's psychological, I know.>

It is precisely your psychological sensitivity that I admire so much. Also, the Rebbitzen surely sensed your deep empathy, with her suffering. Why else would she give you her bracelet, symbolic of her slavery and suffering, and not a different inheritance (such as a vase)?

I believe that the Rebbitzen meant for you to feel her tattooed numbers, when you wear her bracelet. And you do! That's why it's so hard for you to wear. You are truly a remarkable person! Clearly, the Rebbizen understood that you would feel this, more than anyone else who could have inherited that bracelet.

That is why I suggest that you wear the bracelet, on Passover. After all, the Rebbitzen did survive, to have a family, and ultimately, to meet yourself. In the same way, the Jewish slaves did survive, to leave Egypt, and to find freedom. So, wearing the bracelet on Passover represents both slavery and freedom, both pain and joy.

<FYI, because I know you didn't mean any malice, comparing the Exodus to the Middle Passage is to me what the original post in this thread is to you. A closer comparison to the Exodus would be the Underground Railroad; it was no coincidence that Harriet Tubman's code name was Moses.>

Thank you, for explaining this! I apologize, for any offense.

I see now that the Middle Passage was more like the Holocaust, not the Exodus. Although none of the Jews who left Egypt actually got to live in the Promised Land (they all died, along the way, in punishment for sins enumerated, in the Bible), they certainly didn't have the same degree of suffering, as the Middle Passage. Also, both the Middle Passage and the Holocaust were inflicted by merciless humans, not by God.

Change of subject: Why haven't African-Americans instituted a holiday of freedom, like Passover?

Wendy



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Author: LtUhura Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13028 of 22708
Subject: Re: Peace on earth Date: 12/20/2006 2:47 PM
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Thank you, for explaining this! I apologize, for any offense.

None given, none taken :o)

Change of subject: Why haven't African-Americans instituted a holiday of freedom, like Passover?

Oh, but we have, Juneteenth, every June 19 to mark the date when the last slaves were officially emancipated in Texas -- two and a half years after the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. A lot of families have picnics or block parties to celebrate.

Uhura

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