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Author: MissEdithKeeler Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 886534  
Subject: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/24/2013 1:10 PM
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Interesting segment today on "On the Media" about how the personal finance industry and its gurus are failing us. The author has a book out and in the interview she skewered Susi Orman, the Latte Factor guy, Robert Kisosaki and Jim Kramer. She mentioned Dave Ramsay, but I don't remember what she said about him.

http://www.onthemedia.org/2013/mar/22/how-personal-finance-l...

I'm curious, so I just bought the book on Amazon. I'll report back!
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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872731 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/24/2013 1:53 PM
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I listen to Dave a lot as he is pretty entertaining. I wouldn't really call him a personal finance guy. He offers a very narrow set of services/advice.

His advice on investing is pretty poor; his advice on real estate is off balance; and his particular religious perspective often leads to very skewed advice to couples (IMO). But his advice on budgeting and structuring your life to pay off and avoid debt is excellent. All in all, even with the caveats above, for those who come to him as a total train wreck and need structure he is very good at getting people to focus on the essentials and start LBYM.

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872760 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/24/2013 8:51 PM
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I'm curious, so I just bought the book on Amazon. I'll report back!

HA! Well, she's certainly reeled you in as a fish! Maybe if you had listened to Suze or the Latte guy more you would have waited until you could borrow a copy at your local library and not put your money in Helaine Olen's pocket.

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Author: MissEdithKeeler Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872769 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/25/2013 12:21 AM
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HA! Well, she's certainly reeled you in as a fish! Maybe if you had listened to Suze or the Latte guy more you would have waited until you could borrow a copy at your local library and not put your money in Helaine Olen's pocket.


Hmmm. Perhaps. That's the beauty of LBYM, though. I do have enough disposable income to spend money on the stuff I want. I love not having a mortgage.

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872781 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/25/2013 9:37 AM
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Hmmm. Perhaps. That's the beauty of LBYM, though. I do have enough disposable income to spend money on the stuff I want. I love not having a mortgage.

True - but it's ironic you just bought into someone's critique of popular financial advice givers - where the critique is probably about the increased books/products those advice givers sell - by buying a book of that critic - which means buying the product that critic is marketing. I call that being duped.

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872794 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/25/2013 3:16 PM
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I saw something on this the other day and I wasn't favorably impressed and I don't remember why. None of these finance people are perfect, obviously, but I think she was far too fatalistic.

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Author: MissEdithKeeler Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872816 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/25/2013 7:21 PM
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True - but it's ironic you just bought into someone's critique of popular financial advice givers - where the critique is probably about the increased books/products those advice givers sell - by buying a book of that critic - which means buying the product that critic is marketing. I call that being duped.

Well, that's not the focus of the book, which I'm about half through now, and the link I provided in my original post makes it pretty clear that the focus is not that the experts are profiting, but rather that 1) the experts don't really have that keen an insight into the economy and that 2) we're being convinced that we have absolute power when it comes to planning our retirement, etc., that all it takes is saving moeny and investing it wisely and we're guaranteed a comfortable retirement.

It's worth reading, if you care, and feel free to get it from the library. I didn't particularly want to wait.

I'm not sure why you're so critical of my decision to buy a book, and assume that you know what the book is about. I don't really care if I put a little money into the writer's pocket. I wanted the book, and I bought it. So I did. $14 bucks for some food for thought, and it's an interesting counterpoint to so much of the advice that's out there.

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872818 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/25/2013 7:41 PM
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we're being convinced that we have absolute power when it comes to planning our retirement, etc., that all it takes is saving moeny and investing it wisely and we're guaranteed a comfortable retirement.

Where do they say this? Because I watch the Suze Orman show - I get cable anyway, so it's not like I'm paying extra to watch it - and she constantly warns "hope for the best, but plan for the worst". So where is anyone guaranteeing anyone else can have a comfortable retirement?

I do see in Money Magazine articles (with analysis) that saving more over the long-term, can give a person better results than saving less but taking riskier investments does - but again, no where does it ever say it guarantees a comfortable retirement because who knows what laws will be passed in the future, and how the masses not saving for retirement will weight down on all of society.

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Author: MissEdithKeeler Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872819 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/25/2013 7:56 PM
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Where do they say this? Because I watch the Suze Orman show - I get cable anyway, so it's not like I'm paying extra to watch it - and she constantly warns "hope for the best, but plan for the worst". So where is anyone guaranteeing anyone else can have a comfortable retirement?

I do see in Money Magazine articles (with analysis) that saving more over the long-term, can give a person better results than saving less but taking riskier investments does - but again, no where does it ever say it guarantees a comfortable retirement because who knows what laws will be passed in the future, and how the masses not saving for retirement will weight down on all of society.


Ok, whatever. My use of the word "guarantee" was my word and maybe not the best one to use.

This is a pretty silly argument--you're arguing about the contents of a book you haven't read. Read it or don't. Stand behind your favorite financial gurus. Makes no difference to me.

But I will say that I watched Suze Orman for a while. and I don't think she's all wrong. However, I also remember when the real estate bubble burst and she devoted a whole show to talking about the fact that she might have been wrong about some of her prior advice. I think Suze's maybe more honest than most.

I think it's good sometimes to have a counterpoint to the seemingly prevailing thought that a well-funded 401(k) invested in equities is going to get you where you need to be come retirement. Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

Personally, I like listening to disagreeing voices once in a while, because it makes me sit back and question my own position and ask if I've considered both sides. I'm not getting why you find this to be threatening.

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872821 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/25/2013 9:36 PM
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I think it's good sometimes to have a counterpoint to the seemingly prevailing thought that a well-funded 401(k) invested in equities is going to get you where you need to be come retirement. Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

What is the alternative, though? Some savings is better than none. Risk is a fact of life. You do your best to mitigate it and put yourself in a good position. She seems to offer a lot of complaints, not a lot of solutions.

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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872834 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/26/2013 8:40 AM
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I think it's good sometimes to have a counterpoint to the seemingly prevailing thought that a well-funded 401(k) invested in equities is going to get you where you need to be come retirement.


I agree that it seems there are a lot of articles written saying that a well-funded 401k will help provide a good retirement, but that's advice with which I have tended to disagree anyhow. That's because it seems to me that these articles say that like it is the only place one should be saving retirement money, and I have never believed that would be enough savings to provide a comfortable retirement, so I have always opted to save in my 401k and to save outside of it so that I actually have more savings outside of retirement vehicles than inside.

I wish more of these articles would point out that you don't have to save in something that is only for retirement or tax-advantaged for retirement. I think they are short-sighted not to point out that you should just be saving. Period. And that the savings should be both in retirement vehicles and in taxable accounts because you'll have other expenses before you get to retirement, because you get some flexibility like this in your retirement, and basically because you'll end up with more money in retirement and a better chance at that comfortable retirement that is the goal.

For me, it is that push that sounds like you only need to save in a 401k or IRA for retirement, and I think that's very short-sighted, and insufficient.

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Author: concordiadiscors Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872835 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/26/2013 9:24 AM
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I just requested this from my library- judging from the number of existing holds it's a popular read. Thanks for bringing it up.

I listened to the OTM segment and it doesn't sound like she's saying anything like "don't invest for the long term!" or "don't cut back on frivolous expenses when you need the money for other things!" She's pointing out things which people on this board and elsewhere have observed over and over-- the personal finance expert-types are marketing their brands first and foremost, they have vested interests of their own, they're by no means infallible, they make exaggerated claims about what you can expect to gain by following their advice, and Robert Kiyosaki and Jim Kramer are total a$$clowns.

I'm somewhat ambivalent about her outlook on financial education, at least as it came across in the radio piece. I worked for a financial literacy program aimed at college students and alums, and I'm familiar with the tension inherent in providing unbiased information and education that relies on corporate money (that wants its name all over the place). I'm also well aware that simply making financial education available to people is not nearly enough to make them want it. But having it isn't useless, and I don't see, as Olen seems to, an either/or when it comes to protective legislation and education.

Anyway, I look forward to reading the book.

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872837 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/26/2013 9:50 AM
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I think Suze's maybe more honest than most.

I stopped listening when she started showing up on Buick commercials. When you start endorsing a product, you lose credibility.

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872839 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/26/2013 10:37 AM
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This is a pretty silly argument--you're arguing about the contents of a book you haven't read. Read it or don't. Stand behind your favorite financial gurus. Makes no difference to me.

I'm not having an argument - I just think it's funny someone immediately buys into the "hook" of someone else's criticism by buying the product that critique is hocking. I don't think of Suze Orman, Dave B, etc as "gurus" - I see them as financial advisors - sure they've become media popular - but I see them as offering good advice for people just starting out trying to get control of their financies - and there's a lot of people in the US who need that help. Doesn't mean that's the ONLY advice one should ever get.

I think it's good sometimes to have a counterpoint to the seemingly prevailing thought that a well-funded 401(k) invested in equities is going to get you where you need to be come retirement. Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

Of course maybe it wont - since the 401K wasn't invented as a "retirement" vehicle, it was invented as a way for high income earners to shelter some of their income from taxes - but here's the rub - what other choice do most working Americans have nowadays? Most companies don't offer a pension - and even for the ones that do pleny people got burned by either the pension being under-funded or getting fired just before vesting - so even in a traditional pension environment it's a "maybe it will work out, maybe it wont" situation. And you can't depend on the government for the masses, because look what happens when the birth rate slows - many European countries are facing that problem.

And it's not like the biggest retirement savings problem in the US is too many people saving too much money but putting that money in the wrong investment choices.

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872840 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/26/2013 10:44 AM
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That's because it seems to me that these articles say that like it is the only place one should be saving retirement money, and I have never believed that would be enough savings to provide a comfortable retirement, so I have always opted to save in my 401k and to save outside of it so that I actually have more savings outside of retirement vehicles than inside.
.............................
For me, it is that push that sounds like you only need to save in a 401k or IRA for retirement, and I think that's very short-sighted, and insufficient.


But as a lawyer, you're a high-income earner. You have to consider median household income in the US is about $50,000.

So if you're single and fully funding a 401K and Roth IRA at that income, that's about (using this year's max) $23,000 - 46% of your gross income.

If you're a couple - the max for both at that household income would be $46,000 - how are they supposed to eat?

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872841 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/26/2013 10:46 AM
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That's because it seems to me that these articles say that like it is the only place one should be saving retirement money, and I have never believed that would be enough savings to provide a comfortable retirement, so I have always opted to save in my 401k and to save outside of it so that I actually have more savings outside of retirement vehicles than inside.

While I don't disagree with having plenty of savings outside retirement accounts, I do think you can provide enough savings from them for a comfortable retirement, unless comfortable means expensive gated golf course communities. With a two income family like mine, we can put away $35k per year into 401ks. With matching and some profit-sharing, we can exceed $40k per year. Once I turn 50, I can up my contribution to $23k. By the time we retire, the total amounts will be in the seven figures. The accounts alone will be enough for retirement. Adding SS on top, I won't need to tap my taxable accounts other than for tax purposes.

PSU

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872843 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/26/2013 11:24 AM
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they're by no means infallible, they make exaggerated claims about what you can expect to gain by following their advice, and Robert Kiyosaki and Jim Kramer are total a$$clowns.

Kiyosaki created a marketable past. He isn't even a clown.

Cramer is entertaining, and does try to educate.

Both Orman and Ramsay audiences are those that are in debt and are willing to make changes to get out of debt. Once out of debt, it is necessary to move on.

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Author: RoadScholar5 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872883 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/27/2013 8:28 AM
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<When you start endorsing a product, you lose credibility.>


Just ask Cher.


RS

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872886 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/27/2013 9:32 AM
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Just ask Cher.

I didn't realize Cher gave personal finance advice.

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Author: RoadScholar5 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 872890 of 886534
Subject: Re: Personal Finance Industry Date: 3/27/2013 10:00 AM
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If you go back to read the info I put in parens, you will get the reference or maybe not, the story is old.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,306638,00.html


RS - sheesh, pandering to longtime TMF snark culture now, need to go back to FB, where the community is simpatico,lol.

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