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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 734592  
Subject: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 6:00 PM
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http://pewresearch.org/politicalquiz/quiz/index.php

Take the quiz, it's 12 questions, then get depressed at where the scores fall after you're done.
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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546788 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 6:32 PM
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11/12 - missed question #11 (answered Medicare)


A couple observations:

What is a majority? I had to think on #4 for a moment. I knew the Republicans took many seats in the Senate but was it "enough"? Did they get a majority, but not enough to break a filibuster, or not enough even for a simple majority? The recent prevalence of the filibuster changes one's thinking on what constitutes a Senate "majority"


Don't ask Dad to fix the computer - The only questions where youth is positively correlated with the correct answer are #11 (what does the US govt spends the most money on) and #12 (what is the Google smartphone OS). However, the spread is much more narrow for #11; only a 10 point difference between the oldsters (35% correct) and the youngsters (45%). Quite a different story for #12, where the distribution of correct responses lays bare the generation gap, with the whiz kids getting this right 42% of the time and their parents trailing with a pathetic 11%.

I know it's England, but... an average of 14% getting David Cameron right? Good christ, you could guess blindly and get it right 25% of the time. Richard Branson? Tony Hayward? Give me a break.


Yes, a tad depressing. Let's cut funding for schools and libraries some more.

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Author: fredinseoul Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546790 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 6:44 PM
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I got 11 out of 11, along with 1% of the population. Thanks to the PA board.

fredinseoul

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546791 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 6:48 PM
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Yes, a tad depressing. Let's cut funding for schools and libraries some more.
----------------------------------------------------------
You know what, you've got a point, look at what throwing trillions of dollars at The War On Poverty has accomplished:

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/12/so-democrats-finall...

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546792 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 6:49 PM
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I got 11 out of 11, along with 1% of the population. Thanks to the PA board.

fredinseoul
-------------------------------------------
There were 12 questions.

2828

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546805 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 7:34 PM
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wow...I got 12 of 12....but a lot of folks do miserably on it.....really bad...... really really bad......

Half of them were so simple..........

one or two were challenging....



t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546806 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 7:35 PM
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"I got 11 out of 11, along with 1% of the population. Thanks to the PA board.

fredinseoul "



That's an example of liberal math. You just change it to make things look good. If you miss one, you don't count it!


t.

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546812 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 7:51 PM
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I got 7 out of 12 right.....10% of the population. I looked at the breakdown and see that females are a little weak in their answers. Hmmm....

I'm impressed with Mr. Telegraph man getting all the answers right but I know he reads every word in the WSJ each morning at McDonald's or whatever restaurant he goes to. :)

... __ __ __ ...

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546819 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 8:13 PM
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"I'm impressed with Mr. Telegraph man getting all the answers right but I know he reads every word in the WSJ each morning at McDonald's or whatever restaurant he goes to. "


---
Actually, I stay home (if I am not traveling) and go for the short morning walk.

Then I bring in the WSJ, make a healthy breakfast, and the paper end to end.

Had a nice egg beater omelet (one real egg), sliced up roma tomato, mushrooms.......a pinch of cheese....for breakfast along with one large cup of Taster's Choice coffee (2%milk and a splenda).

Of course, if y'all watch FOX news, you'd be up to speed on all of it.


Half of it was common sense....


Of course we have bigger deficits now....and we have a horrible trade balance..they keep talking about how big it is......and defense is always the biggest item in the budget...even the PA types rant and rave about it all the time...... Tony Haywood was BP Chairman....in the news for months....and the repubs won on the House....and who has been on Fox news all the time? Boehner.....

Other than knowing India and Pakistan hate each other and each developed nuke weapons to have in case of war.....and they fight each other over 'claimed disputed territory' every few years.... there weren't too many other toughies if you watched Fox News.

It shows how bad CNN and MS-LSD are at providing news coverage.

LD - I go to McD on Sunday morning after I buy the local Sunday paper ($3)..... no WSJ on Sunday!.....and read it end to end..well...I skip the classified and the Sports section.....

t.


t.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546842 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 10:10 PM
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You know what, you've got a point, look at what throwing trillions of dollars at The War On Poverty has accomplished:

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/12/so-democrats-finall......


I'm neither a big fan of Jesse Jackson nor of maintaining a perpetual welfare state.

But I don't see what the War on Poverty has to do with the poll (which was interesting, BTW) or funding for schools and libraries, which addresses your lamentation over the apparent ignorance of poll-takers.

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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546846 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 10:32 PM
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Got 11 out of 12...missed the TARP question. I thought it was all paid back....I know taxpayers made money (interest) -- didn't we?

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546850 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 10:43 PM
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"Got 11 out of 12...missed the TARP question. I thought it was all paid back....I know taxpayers made money (interest) -- didn't we?"


Ha..you fell for the Obama line...they feed you nice news but it isn't complete....

Like lindytoes scored 100% on 11 of the Pew questions.....that is Obama News...... forgetting about the other question entirely since it is unpleasant news.

Nope, we are not all paid back..there is still something like 20 billion still outstanding.

We did make money on SOME of the loans repaid....but overall , you still took it in the proverbial shorts.

You may never see it all repaid.

Here's just onenews article


More than three-quarters of Ohio banks that borrowed money from the federal government through the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP, have yet to repay the loans, leaving a $7.6 billion balance hanging over the state’s banking industry.

Of the five Ohio banks that operate in the Dayton region, only two — LCNB Corp. of Lebanon and First Financial Bancorp of Cincinnati — squared away their TARP debt. LCNB (NASDAQ: LCNB) in October 2009 repaid its $13.4 million loan and First Financial (NASDAQ: FFBC) in February repaid the $80 million it borrowed.

In total, 17 Ohio banks participated in TARP, borrowing $7.8 billion. Fourteen state banks have yet to repay TARP funds.


Read more: Banks still owe billions in unpaid TARP funds | Dayton Business Journal

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/news/2010/12/17/banks-stil...

ANother news item:

"In an earlier article I wrote about the success of the TARP program, the $700 billion bailout government program that is officially ending on Monday. According to a Wall Street Journal piece, more than 600 banks are still holding $65 billion of the bailout funds. Many of these banks are too weak to repay the government funds."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/227984-on-the-banks-that-hav...

---

That's about 10% not repaid yet.....65 billion......or about nearly $800 per household in the USA...


t.

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Author: whyohwhyoh Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546851 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/29/2010 11:20 PM
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I also went 11 for 12....

I read the Pakistan/India question too quickly...thought it said with not between.

Are relations <with> India and Pakistan generally considered to be...

I only learned about the Google Android connection recently though.

--
whyohwhyoh

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Author: AOLFoolman100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546855 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:22 AM
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10 of 12. I suck.

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546856 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:23 AM
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10 of 12. I suck.

That's "Yo suckso."

--fleg

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Author: AOLFoolman100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546857 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:34 AM
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That's "Yo suckso."

--fleg



Hi Fleg, I know you've been madly missing me on these boards. (LOL). Being with family members who are technologically behind the curve located in the backwoods of Texas has hindered my presence on these esteemed boards, apparently littered with the linguistically-advanced jet set. I've even heard that a Lion-lover and one who lives in a van down by the river has taken on the high art of verbal re-circuitrifying of one's neurons. I am impressed.

Now, about your being drowned.....and then frozen by the very same medium....

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546861 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 7:33 AM
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6 out of 12. 58% whatever that means.

Meh.....

Artie

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546867 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 8:46 AM
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10/12 - missed TARP and spending on national defense.

JLC

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546868 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 8:50 AM
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But I don't see what the War on Poverty has to do with the poll (which was interesting, BTW) or funding for schools and libraries, which addresses your lamentation over the apparent ignorance of poll-takers.

Throwing money at the problem doesn't make the problem go away. It was a stab at useless government spending.

JLC

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546875 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 9:36 AM
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But I don't see what the War on Poverty has to do with the poll (which was interesting, BTW) or funding for schools and libraries, which addresses your lamentation over the apparent ignorance of poll-takers.

Throwing money at the problem doesn't make the problem go away. It was a stab at useless government spending.

JLC
-------------------------------------
Thanks JLC, that's what i was getting at. I read recently that DC schools spent $17,000 per student and the Voucher program spent half as much and showed better results, so of course Obama ended the voucher program. It's not the money, check your property tax bill, it's throwing millions at administrators who walk around on marble floors all day and do nothing. The problem is the system, more money won't do anything. 2828 has spoken, go forth to love and serve the Lord.

Keep in mind that GardenBunny Jr. has died for us and is sitting with GardenBunny Sr., he is our sav-i-or, he is joy for all ages.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546877 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 9:43 AM
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Throwing money at the problem doesn't make the problem go away. It was a stab at useless government spending.

It's certainly not a universal solution. But still, schools and libraries?

Early this year, our County library system cut back on operating hours at all branches in order to avoid the proposed closure of one particular branch. The "targeted" branch was in one of the wealthy neighborhoods, yet circulation and attendance of library events was way down relative to other branches.

Not surprisingly, there was a local uproar from the community surrounding the one branch, who seemed to fear what would become of the property more than they feared the loss of library services.

The net result is that many of the very well-attended night and weekend programs at other branches got the axe so that *all* branches could continue to exist. Obviously this has a disproportionate impact on those who actually used the libraries, and benefited from the service they provide. The people who were trying to better themselves, in other words.

Considering all the other nonsense the government spends our money on, in the case of libraries, throwing a little cash at the problem goes a long ways.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546878 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 9:43 AM
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"I read recently that DC schools spent $17,000 per student and the Voucher program spent half as much and showed better results, so of course Obama ended the voucher program."


Silly you.

Vouchers go to private non-union schools.

That $17,000 per student goes to high teacher salaries, benefits and especially RETIREMENT PLANS that allow them to leave after 20 or 25 years with fat retirement packages.

It is no coincidence that Obama's most frequent visitor was his union buddy Andy Stern of the SEIU for the first year in office.


t.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546879 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 9:48 AM
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Considering all the other nonsense the government spends our money on, in the case of libraries, throwing a little cash at the problem goes a long ways.

Yes, and people can't be trusted to see the obvious benefits of libraries and voluntarily contribute, so we must use government coercion. It's the only way to get wrong-headed morons to serve the greater good which they are too stupid to recognize.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546882 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 9:59 AM
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Considering all the other nonsense the government spends our money on, in the case of libraries, throwing a little cash at the problem goes a long ways.
------------------------------------------------------
I don't know anything about the library situation, i'll have to refer you to Gattomeyoo or gattinogattino. Gattomeyoo is probably tangled up in her snuggie watching obscure british sitcoms and gattinogattino is probably beating away purse snatchers in Baltimore right now though.

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546889 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 10:27 AM
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...libraries?

Will/is a thing of the past. You're probably sitting in front of one right now. The "library" is the internet.

Counties could easily save tons of money by closing/converting libraries to internet kiosks. Would need a lot less storage space for a virtual library.

JLC

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Author: GringoFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546898 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 10:52 AM
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6 out of 12. 58% whatever that means.

Meh.....

Artie


The test was "culture biased". No questions on NDE, duality or separation, not to mention animal skinning.

G.F.

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546900 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 11:05 AM
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10/12

decath

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546902 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 11:38 AM
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Will/is a thing of the past. You're probably sitting in front of one right now. The "library" is the internet.

Counties could easily save tons of money by closing/converting libraries to internet kiosks.


You really think so? Considering that a county library system might be serving 1000-2000 patrons at any given time, that's a lot of hardware to maintain.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned but I don't care to spend my life in front of a computer screen. I get plenty enough of that as it is. And if net neutrality is lost then you can kiss the usefulness of the internet as an open resource goodbye as well.

Without question, libraries are more cost-efficient. Based on the county budget and the property taxes I pay, I shell out about $25 a year for the county library system. Not counting the $40 or 50 or so I pay my ISP every month, I'd spend a heck of alot more than that on "digital books" (again, to be read on an infernal computer screen), movies, games, etc. that I can borrow for free from the library. Sometimes, while browsing the shelves, I stuble on to something that looks interesting and I'll pick that up to give it a whirl. Same goes for the kids. They borrow 20-30 books at a time and pore through them over the following month until they are due. A lot more efficient than maintaining a home children's library full of books that they'll quickly tire of.

I also like walking and riding a bike, which are also "things of the past" given that I could easily treat myself to the mechanical efficiency of a motorized wheelchair. Call me nostalgic.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546904 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 11:40 AM
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I don't know anything about the library situation, i'll have to refer you to Gattomeyoo or gattinogattino. Gattomeyoo is probably tangled up in her snuggie watching obscure british sitcoms and gattinogattino is probably beating away purse snatchers in Baltimore right now though.


You'll have to pardon me for not getting the joke.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546910 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 11:51 AM
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Will/is a thing of the past. You're probably sitting in front of one right now. The "library" is the internet.

Counties could easily save tons of money by closing/converting libraries to internet kiosks.


You really think so? Considering that a county library system might be serving 1000-2000 patrons at any given time, that's a lot of hardware to maintain.


How many of those 1,000-2,000 patrons don't already have computers and Internet access?

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned but I don't care to spend my life in front of a computer screen. I get plenty enough of that as it is. And if net neutrality is lost then you can kiss the usefulness of the internet as an open resource goodbye as well.

Huh? We haven't had "net neutrality," and it's been just fine.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546914 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:02 PM
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Yes, and people can't be trusted to see the obvious benefits of libraries and voluntarily contribute, so we must use government coercion. It's the only way to get wrong-headed morons to serve the greater good which they are too stupid to recognize.

I'll make sure to present the idea of voluntary contributions at the next public hearing on capital project funding. Surely this will be rabidly embraced by the local businesses who are always clamoring for wider roadways, traffic signals, and pre-emptive snow removal in the retail district. Surely they will regret having fought so vehemently against the impact fees and squirming their way around having those improvements done as a condition of their development permits. Surely they will reconsider their artificially low traffic projections used to cook the traffic impact study that proclaimed "No Improvements Required", and suddenly break out their checkbook to voluntarily contribute to roadway improvements in the name of "the greater good".

Heck, in the thrall of sudden altruism they may even pitch a bake sale and donate the proceeds to the county library.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546915 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:04 PM
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How many of those 1,000-2,000 patrons don't already have computers and Internet access?

I'll bet that pretty much all of them do. But the internet doesn't provide what they are looking for. That's why they're at the library.


Huh? We haven't had "net neutrality," and it's been just fine.

Whistling past the graveyard....

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546918 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:07 PM
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6 out of 12. 58% whatever that means. Meh..... Artie
--------------------------------------------------
"The test was "culture biased". No questions on NDE, duality or separation, not to mention animal skinning." - G.F.

-----------------------------------------


I would have done better if they'd had a "who cares?" option.

Artie

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:09 PM
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Yes, and people can't be trusted to see the obvious benefits of libraries and voluntarily contribute, so we must use government coercion. It's the only way to get wrong-headed morons to serve the greater good which they are too stupid to recognize.

I'll make sure to present the idea of voluntary contributions at the next public hearing on capital project funding. Surely this will be rabidly embraced by the local businesses who are always clamoring for wider roadways, traffic signals, and pre-emptive snow removal in the retail district. Surely they will regret having fought so vehemently against the impact fees and squirming their way around having those improvements done as a condition of their development permits. Surely they will reconsider their artificially low traffic projections used to cook the traffic impact study that proclaimed "No Improvements Required", and suddenly break out their checkbook to voluntarily contribute to roadway improvements in the name of "the greater good".

Heck, in the thrall of sudden altruism they may even pitch a bake sale and donate the proceeds to the county library.


Yes, because we know that none of these things would happen without government coercion (even though it used to be done without government coercion before government displaced voluntary action).

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:13 PM
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How many of those 1,000-2,000 patrons don't already have computers and Internet access?

I'll bet that pretty much all of them do. But the internet doesn't provide what they are looking for. That's why they're at the library.


What is the justification for using taxpayer money to pay for libraries? Certainly not for learning. There are vast amounts of learning and reference materials available on the Internet. So what justifies it? Fiction? Entertainment?

Huh? We haven't had "net neutrality," and it's been just fine.

Whistling past the graveyard....


Huh?

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546927 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:35 PM
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"Surely this will be rabidly embraced by the local businesses who are always clamoring for wider roadways, traffic signals, and pre-emptive snow removal in the retail district." - Modern Viking


If they want those things why don't they pay for it themselves out of their own pocket? Makes sense to me.

Artie

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546928 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:36 PM
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So what justifies it? Fiction? Entertainment?

It is justified because self-appointed "leaders" just know that they can spend your money better than you can. They determine it is just and necessary, so it is what it is.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546932 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:47 PM
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Yes, because we know that none of these things would happen without government coercion (even though it used to be done without government coercion before government displaced voluntary action).

Ah, back in the days when there was no government and the roads were built and paid for by volunteers...

Memories, memories....

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546933 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:51 PM
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"Surely this will be rabidly embraced by the local businesses who are always clamoring for wider roadways, traffic signals, and pre-emptive snow removal in the retail district." - Modern Viking


If they want those things why don't they pay for it themselves out of their own pocket? Makes sense to me.


Me too. But up until now, they've expected these items to be financed by taxpayers.

I can't figure out why. MadCap tells me they'll see the light if we politiely explain it's for the greater good.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546934 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:53 PM
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Yes, because we know that none of these things would happen without government coercion (even though it used to be done without government coercion before government displaced voluntary action).

Ah, back in the days when there was no government and the roads were built and paid for by volunteers...

Memories, memories....


So you aren't even going to attempt a rational argument?

Can't you think of any possible incentive for someone to build a road (for example) in the absence of government coercion? If you can't, then you lack imagination.

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Author: whyohwhyoh Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546935 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:55 PM
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It is justified because self-appointed "leaders" just know that they can spend your money better than you can. They determine it is just and necessary, so it is what it is.

Here in my neck of the woods they are building giant architecturally ornate libraries. Another one is under construction right now. Absolutely insane.... Yet they are reducing open hours and days, to punish the public is all I can think of.

It should me very minimal cost to keep a simple library open 24/7. What's the overnight operating budget of a 24/7 grocery store? I used to manage/work graveyard shifts, it was peanuts to keep them open. Libraries should be much less.

I think my county library budget is over 5 million/year for a population of 405,000 people, of only maybe 10% actually use the service. 5 million/year operation budget for 40,000 people. Something seems way out of whack. Dunno.

--
whyohwhyoh

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546936 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:56 PM
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I can't figure out why. MadCap tells me they'll see the light if we politiely explain it's for the greater good.

No, I don't speak in terms of the greater good. I was being sarcastic. People would build roads, libraries, etc. because it is in their self-interest to do so. There is no need for the ridiculous liberal altruistic "greater good" arguments.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546937 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 12:57 PM
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It is justified because self-appointed "leaders" just know that they can spend your money better than you can. They determine it is just and necessary, so it is what it is.

Actually, it's justified because county residents ask for it.

It's one of those things that makes my county one that people flock to ... following their free-market instincts, justifying the high cost for housing and the long commutes as a fair tradeoff for outstanding public services (including schools and libraries).

So far as I know the "self appointed leaders" (i.e. developers and CoC muckymucks) want nothing to do with libraries. Yet the elected officials do. Go figure.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546938 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 1:03 PM
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No, I don't speak in terms of the greater good. I was being sarcastic. People would build roads, libraries, etc. because it is in their self-interest to do so. There is no need for the ridiculous liberal altruistic "greater good" arguments.

Greater good as defined by them.

You are talking to an adherent of The One True Faith, that a team of enlightened elites just know better how to run your life than you ever will.

The phrase "find a need and fill it" rolls off their back. If left alone some creative individual(s) will devise a plan to meet a need in exchange for compensation. Of course, that would involve personal enrichment and we all know that altruistic sacrifice is the only acceptable motivation for human behavior... assuming that the elites get a cut, of course. Wealth is bad, except when it finds its way into the pockets of the rulers.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546939 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 1:04 PM
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Can't you think of any possible incentive for someone to build a road (for example) in the absence of government coercion? If you can't, then you lack imagination.

I'm not saying there isn't an incentive. It happened with the railroads. The DuPont family was also instrumental in building roads in Delaware in the early 20th century. The first "transcontinental" highway was basically the result of a public-private partnership. It helped that, at the time, there was a lot less public resistance to the idea of eminent domain (I know, I know, there's that dastardly "government coercion" again...) and it was a lot easier to carve up a few farms than to uproot hundreds of families in order to build a few miles of road.

But for some strange reason, businesses seem to have no interest in making such investments anymore.

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 1:06 PM
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It is justified because self-appointed "leaders" just know that they can spend your money better than you can. They determine it is just and necessary, so it is what it is.

Actually, it's justified because county residents ask for it.
----------------------------------------------------------
Every man, woman, and child owes $44,000 if we were to pay off the debt today, and that's just federal, the states are in worse shape. Again, i don't know about libraries, but some very difficult choices will need to be made very soon. When it's put to the county residents we will see what is justified or not. I want a pony, so what.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546942 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 1:09 PM
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Actually, it's justified because county residents ask for it.

If 50.1% of the voters vote to loot the other 49.9%, then it's moral? Sounds more like mob rule to me. No limits on the power of the majority - the recipe for tyranny.

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546944 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 1:14 PM
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the backwoods of Texas

Which suburb of Dallas is that?

--fleg

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546945 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 1:15 PM
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5 million/year operation budget for 40,000 people. Something seems way out of whack.

That's $125 bucks per user per year. Two tanks of gas.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546950 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 1:32 PM
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Every man, woman, and child owes $44,000 if we were to pay off the debt today, and that's just federal, the states are in worse shape.

On a per-capita basis, people aren't obligated by state debt nearly as badly as by the feds. Moving to California puts one in hock by about $1,800. New York, $2,900. Connecticut & Massachusetts seem to be the worst at around $4,500.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/20/states-debt-pensions-intera...



Again, i don't know about libraries, but some very difficult choices will need to be made very soon. When it's put to the county residents we will see what is justified or not. I want a pony, so what.

In my county, the Library accounts for a big fat 1% of the budget. Closing all libraries, firing all library employees, and terminating all services will save us 1%.


The piper is calling, indeed, at both the Federal and State level.

Your poll demonstrates that there is widespread lack of fundamental political literacy.

This ignorance manifests in ridiculous arguments about how to save money, and where best to cut the fat. Personally, I'd rather the discussion be based on reality regarding what actually constitutes government "waste" and a close evaluation of where our national priorities lie.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546952 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 1:34 PM
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If 50.1% of the voters vote to loot the other 49.9%, then it's moral? Sounds more like mob rule to me. No limits on the power of the majority - the recipe for tyranny.

Oh, listen to you. Get the tricorn hat and musket out already.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546962 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:22 PM
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Oh, listen to you. Get the tricorn hat and musket out already.

Unable to muster a logical argument, eh? This is standard liberal gobbledygook. Whenever a point is raised for which they have no rational response, cue the ridicule.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546964 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:24 PM
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"Here in my neck of the woods they are building giant architecturally ornate libraries. Another one is under construction right now. Absolutely insane.... Yet they are reducing open hours and days, to punish the public is all I can think of." - whyohwhyoh


LOL! Let me see if I can explain this. I used to work for the University of Tennessee and am well acquainted with the "different pools of money" concept.

They got "building money" which can't be used for salaries, and they got "equipment money" which can't be used for maintenance but can only be used to buy new equipment, and they got salary money which can't be used for the other two.

Money in one pot can't be used to buy anything in the other pot. That is why when we worked for the University they'd tell us they didn't have any money for raises but at the same time they were building brand new multi-million dollar buildings.

Artie

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546966 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:28 PM
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But for some strange reason, businesses seem to have no interest in making such investments anymore.

What do you expect? It is not particularly financially rewarding to compete against free or heavily subsidized government roads or services.

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:30 PM
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"That's $125 bucks per user per year. Two tanks of gas." - ModernViking


Uh??? 6 tanks of gas for me. I drive a Nissan Sentra and since I only fill up once a month that would be half a years worth of gas money for me.

Or about a months worth of groceries, and yes I am that cheap.

Artie

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:33 PM
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Actually, it's justified because county residents ask for it.

If 50.1% of the voters vote to loot the other 49.9%, then it's moral? Sounds more like mob rule to me. No limits on the power of the majority - the recipe for tyranny.


If you and I vote in favor of robbing ModernViking before we take his money, then it is just democracy in action. If we didn't vote beforehand, then it would obviously be a criminal act. I hope that clears it up. ;-)

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546969 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:33 PM
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IWhat do you expect? It is not particularly financially rewarding to compete against free or heavily subsidized government roads or services.

Plus, Corporate America is the product of the same educational system/culture that has trained the populace to passively sit back and wait for Momma Bird (government) to drop the worm in its mouth. The concept of learned helplessness.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546972 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:35 PM
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If you and I vote in favor of robbing ModernViking before we take his money, then it is just democracy in action. If we didn't vote beforehand, then it would obviously be a criminal act. I hope that clears it up. ;-)

I decree that it is in the public interest to have me, you, 2828, and fleg take a Hawaiian vacation... and I vote that ModernViking pays for it.

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546973 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:38 PM
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I decree that it is in the public interest to have me, you, 2828, and fleg take a Hawaiian vacation... and I vote that ModernViking pays for it.

80% voted in favor of this, while only 20% voted against. Democracy in action!

--fleg

P.S. ModernViking is a good name for him--it conjures up the image of plunderers who devastate whatever lands they visit.

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:39 PM
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If you and I vote in favor of robbing ModernViking before we take his money, then it is just democracy in action. If we didn't vote beforehand, then it would obviously be a criminal act. I hope that clears it up. ;-)

I decree that it is in the public interest to have me, you, 2828, and fleg take a Hawaiian vacation... and I vote that ModernViking pays for it.
---------------------------------------------------------
Er, hooray! I figure if ModernViking has a vehicle which takes $62 to fill the tank then surely he can afford to send us to the 56th state on vacation. Hooray!

2828

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546976 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:39 PM
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If you and I vote in favor of robbing ModernViking before we take his money, then it is just democracy in action. If we didn't vote beforehand, then it would obviously be a criminal act. I hope that clears it up. ;-)

I decree that it is in the public interest to have me, you, 2828, and fleg take a Hawaiian vacation... and I vote that ModernViking pays for it.


Okay, but I'm adding a rider to the bill that also makes him pay for all the bacon that we can eat. :-)

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546977 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:42 PM
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Er, hooray! I figure if ModernViking has a vehicle which takes $62 to fill the tank then surely he can afford to send us to the 56th state on vacation. Hooray!

Having a vehicle that requires that much fuel to fill it up is proof positive of ModernViking's greed. He obviously shouldn't be depriving poor, deserving souls like us from a vacation. After all, why should he have so much while we have so little?

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546978 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:51 PM
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Will there be sunscreen made available? I have a tendency to freckle.

2828

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546979 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:54 PM
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Will there be sunscreen made available? I have a tendency to freckle.

I vote "yes." I'm sure MV doesn't us to suffer. After all, it's just a few additional dollars. I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

Me - YES

fleg? MadCap? 2828?

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546981 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:56 PM
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Will there be sunscreen made available? I have a tendency to freckle.

I vote "yes." I'm sure MV doesn't us to suffer. After all, it's just a few additional dollars. I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

Me - YES

fleg? MadCap? 2828?


We need to bend the health care cost curve down by preventing cancer, so I vote YES.

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 2:56 PM
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I vote "yes." I'm sure MV doesn't us to suffer. After all, it's just a few additional dollars. I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

Me - YES

fleg? MadCap? 2828?
----------------
I vote yes, and as a gesture of good will i will agree to send ModVike a postcard, i understand the air in Hawaii is so dewey sweet you don't even need to lick the stamps.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546983 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:01 PM
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"Ah, back in the days when there was no government and the roads were built and paid for by volunteers..."

Back in those days, folks build toll roads and charged for their use. Capitalism at work.

THe first toll roads were 'turn pikes'. YOu had a large gate, and after you paid your toll, you were permitted to travel on the toll road by having the large 'pike' turned 90 degrees so you could pass.


http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/transport/roadcult.h...


"A road owned and operated by a private turnpike company could also boost the economy of a region. Building and maintaining a road was usually done by local labor and contractors. The maintenance of a road could carry on through much of the year as it involved regrading, restoning and ditch digging. Tollkeepers, often posted every ten miles, also had to be paid, and were usually taken from a local labor pool.

Historical evidence suggests that the real value of a toll road to a community came during the winter months. During drier times of the year, many people used older, non-toll roads that were not as well maintained. Records show, however, that toll revenue went up during the times of inclement weather as travellers flocked to the safer and more comfortable roads. Thus, they seemed to have played a role early in the transportation revolution of improving the quality of economic and social life. "


Turnpikes and Toll Roads in Nineteenth-Century America

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/klein.majewski.turnpikes


"Private road building came and went in waves throughout the nineteenth century and across the country, with between 2,500 and 3,200 companies successfully financing, building, and operating their toll road. There were three especially important episodes of toll road construction: the turnpike era of the eastern states 1792 to 1845; the plank road boom 1847 to 1853; and the toll road of the far West 1850 to 1902."

---

Only the libs try to rewrite history. It didn't take 'big government' to build the roads.

In fact, we would have had the same or better highway system built from private companies at probably 1/2 the cost. (would have had to use the highest cost labor possible to do it).

t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546986 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:08 PM
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You realize it was Andrew Carnegie, that super rich capitalist, who built libraries in tens of thousands of cities because they didn't have them?

Private money.

Repeat....private money.

Only later did 'big government' stick its nose into the library business.

from wiki

"A Carnegie library is a library built with money donated by Scottish-American businessman and philanthropist Andrew Carnegie. More than 2,500 Carnegie libraries were built, including some belonging to public and university library systems.

Of the 2,509 such libraries funded between 1883 and 1929, 1,689 were built in the United States, 660 in Britain and Ireland, 125 in Canada, and others in Australia, New Zealand, Serbia, the Caribbean, and Fiji.[citation needed] Very few towns that requested a grant and agreed to his terms were refused. When the last grant was made in 1919, there were 3,500 libraries in the United States, nearly half of them built with construction grants paid by Carnegie."

---

In Colonial America, there were PRIVATE libraries. YOu paid an annual fee to belong and borrow books.

Now, you get money vacuumed out of your wallet.

This town of mine (well, 270,000 folks) has six major libraries. Kids hang out there to , ahem, study. THey have about 20 computer terminals in each one. Poor folks can go there and get on the internet for 15-30 minutes at a time, or those unemployed looking for a job, etc, along with lots of others. They have tons of books still.....but the magazine collection gets smaller and smaller each year as they cut back. All the buildings are nice , most new, multi-million dollar palaces with way more style than is needed...showcases, of course. Every town has to try to outdo the neighbor town on 'designer libraries'.


t.

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:09 PM
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"That's $125 bucks per user per year. Two tanks of gas. "


You must drive a real gas guzzler.

The Prius takes 8 gallons once a month (400 miles) and that is $24 bucks now.

The Malibu only holds about 14 gal and when I fill it up, it's usually #25 to $30 for gas.

What kind of guzzler do you drive? Hummer? BIg Ford truck?

t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546989 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:13 PM
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artie: "They got "building money" which can't be used for salaries, and they got "equipment money" which can't be used for maintenance but can only be used to buy new equipment, and they got salary money which can't be used for the other two.

Money in one pot can't be used to buy anything in the other pot. That is why when we worked for the University they'd tell us they didn't have any money for raises but at the same time they were building brand new multi-million dollar buildings. "


Yep, the building money is from bonds the tax payer approved, knowing that their kids and grandkids would be paying it back, not them. Long term 30 year type bonds. Millions of bucks in that fund likely. For new schools, libraries, etc. No need to save since it is all borrowed and not part of having to raise taxes this year to pay for them.

The salaries come from current tax year revenues. If you want to pay folks more, you got to collect more in current taxes.

New equipment comes out of 'capital expenses' which often can be written off in other ways......

t.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546991 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:15 PM
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"Oh, listen to you. Get the tricorn hat and musket out already."
-----------------------------------------------
"Unable to muster a logical argument, eh? This is standard liberal gobbledygook. Whenever a point is raised for which they have no rational response, cue the ridicule." - wolverine



Yep, exactly. It is a flawed debating tactic. Resort to belittlement when no other arguments can be found. - Art

"The comparison used in this skeptical argument is notoriously common, yet severely flawed and ludicrous. It is often more of a belittling tactic than a reasoned logical argument. Used when skeptics are challenged to disprove a paranormal claim, they often state it like this: "Of course I can't prove that God, spirits, UFO’s, paranormal phenomena or metaphysical realities don't exist, but you can't prove to me that invisible pink unicorns don't exist either." Other similar variations of this are "but you can’t prove to me that there wasn’t a dragon hiding in my garage either" and "but you can’t prove to me that little green gremlins aren’t stealing pennies from my pockets either," etc. The premise behind this argument is that if a claim is unprovable, then it’s in the same category as everything that’s been made up or fictionalized. However, it is a complete straw man argument because it falsely redefines the opposing position in terms that make it more easily attackable, using false comparisons. A simple examination reveals this."

http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/winston.html#4

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546994 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:20 PM
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"I decree that it is in the public interest to have me, you, 2828, and fleg take a Hawaiian vacation... and I vote that ModernViking pays for it." wolverine


Several years ago I promised my little niece I'd take her to Hawaii after I win the lottery. She was reading a Nancy Drew story and it took place in Hawaii and she told me she wanted to go Hawaii. Her mother told me on Christmas Day that she still remembers that promise. She is now in the ninth grade in High School. So I suppose if I win the Megamillions drawing tomorrow night I'll have to spend part of the jackpot on a trip to Hawaii.

Artie

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546995 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:21 PM
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Other than knowing India and Pakistan hate each other and each developed nuke weapons to have in case of war.....and they fight each other over 'claimed disputed territory' every few years.... there weren't too many other toughies if you watched Fox News.

It shows how bad CNN and MS-LSD are at providing news coverage.

LD - I go to McD on Sunday morning after I buy the local Sunday paper ($3)..... no WSJ on Sunday!.....and read it end to end..well...I skip the classified and the Sports section.....

t.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I get thrown on the percentages questions....how much unemployment and that, there was other stuff too I got the wrong answer on but I'm not totally ignorant. I get my news mostly from my local and the WSJ papers. About a month ago, I went from 7 day a wk delivery of local paper to 4 days a wk. Thursday,Fri,Sat. and Sunday....it's weird not getting two papers in the morning but if it's not there I don't miss it and I can always get online and read the digital edition.

I saw a Sony reader today at the gym, first time, I've ever seen any readers up close and the guy holding it was a geezer! I was impressed. :) I asked him about it and all. I'm old fashioned and technophobic but never say never.

Did you catch my Morse Code at the end of my post? :)

LD

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546998 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:24 PM
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Keep in mind that GardenBunny Jr. has died for us and is sitting with GardenBunny Sr., he is our sav-i-or, he is joy for all ages.
2828

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Is the Glittery Squirrel just for decoration?


:)

:D

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547000 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:26 PM
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Unable to muster a logical argument, eh? This is standard liberal gobbledygook. Whenever a point is raised for which they have no rational response, cue the ridicule.

I was having a civil and fulfilling exchange until MadCap and you started in with the liberal-elitist class warfare nonsense. I suppose this is what passes for a "logical argument" in your book:

"Greater good as defined by them.

You are talking to an adherent of The One True Faith, that a team of enlightened elites just know better how to run your life than you ever will.
"

This, in an apparent criticism of government ("them") spending on public libraries. In a single sentence, you've turned your back on the subsidised access to literature/media as well as the principle of a representative democracy.

Great rebuttal there, wolf.

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547001 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:26 PM
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I live right off one of Virginia's 46 turnpikes - Little River Turnpike. So there.

arrete

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547002 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:28 PM
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I decree that it is in the public interest to have me, you, 2828, and fleg take a Hawaiian vacation... and I vote that ModernViking pays for it.
wolvie

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

speaking of Hawaii, I hear that Dear Leader is taking an extra day to spend more time with his family, isn't that sweet?

LD

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547005 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:31 PM
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i understand the air in Hawaii is so dewey sweet you don't even need to lick the stamps.

I was stationed at Pearl Harbor for three years. It was real nice to roll out of bed at 7 am on a Sunday and catch live NFL football. You could get your football fix, yet have enough time left in the day to go to the beach.

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547006 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:32 PM
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THe first toll roads were 'turn pikes'. YOu had a large gate, and after you paid your toll, you were permitted to travel on the toll road by having the large 'pike' turned 90 degrees so you could pass.


telegraph

>?>?>?>?>?>????????????????

thanks tele, I always wonder where turnpike came from....I'm curious about things like that and particularly people's last names if they are unusual or unique, I wonder what the origin is. I'm not sure what mine means either....I should research it.

LD

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547007 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:32 PM
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Keep in mind that GardenBunny Jr. has died for us and is sitting with GardenBunny Sr., he is our sav-i-or, he is joy for all ages.
2828

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Is the Glittery Squirrel just for decoration?
-----------------------------
No, no. GlitterySquirrel is very important, he is responsible for making people feel the pain they caused others by punching them in the gut while GardenBunny Sr. holds their arms behind their backs. He was also responsible for kerrying out GardenBunny Sr's edict by sending NonGlitteryOpossum to the underworld where he sits today, feeling shame for having disobeyed GardenBunny. You don't mess with GardenBunny.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547008 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:33 PM
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"That's $125 bucks per user per year. Two tanks of gas." - ModernViking


Uh??? 6 tanks of gas for me.



Just putting it in the perspective of most of the folks who, in my neck of the woods, prefer Yukons and F250s for their daily 30-mile single-occupancy commute into the city. We have a Honda Odyssey which doesn't do much better for gas mileage, and with gas at $3 a gallon costs about $50 to fill.

I can eek four to five tanks out of $125 with my mid-nineties Crapola which I am slowly beating to death as my daily driver. I'd do better with a newer car, but I just can't talk myself into buying a new car only to start racking up 25k miles a year and subjecting it to the random nastiness of Baltimore metro-area commuting.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547010 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:34 PM
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If you and I vote in favor of robbing ModernViking

You wouldn't be the first to try.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547011 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:35 PM
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This, in an apparent criticism of government ("them") spending on public libraries. In a single sentence, you've turned your back on the subsidised access to literature/media as well as the principle of a representative democracy.

I gladly turn my back on representative democracy when it is being used as a rationalization to violate our natural rights.

I wish you would acknowledge the fact something isn't necessarily morally right just because a majority agree with it. Slavery was legal in this country for many years, but I would hope that you would consider slavery immoral.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547012 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:39 PM
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"Keep in mind that GardenBunny Jr. has died for us and is sitting with GardenBunny Sr., he is our sav-i-or, he is joy for all ages."
2828
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"Is the Glittery Squirrel just for decoration? :)" :D

---------------------------------------------------------------------


It's a take off on the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Three in one person, and how each one of us can have the holy spirit living in us.

and yes, it's a holographic universe thing. Everything points in that direction.

"In addition to its phantomlike nature, such a universe would possess other rather startling features. If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected. The electrons in a carbon atom in the human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and every star that shimmers in the sky. Everything interpenetrates everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe, all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature is ultimately a seamless web.

In a holographic universe, even time and space could no longer be viewed as fundamentals. Because concepts such as location break down in a universe in which nothing is truly separate from anything else, time and three-dimensional space, like the images of the fish on the TV monitors, would also have to be viewed as projections of this deeper order. At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously."
-Excerpt from The Universe as a Hologram, http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

The holographic universe: When it pays to be first

http://blogs.monografias.com/sistema-limbico-neurociencias/2...

Our world may be a giant hologram

http://www.inquisitr.com/15460/scientists-claim-our-world-ma...

Scientific American Article on Holographic Universe

http://www.crystalinks.com/holouniverse1.html

Nature's Mind: the Quantum Hologram
http://www.edmitchellapollo14.com/naturearticle.htm

Articel in National Geographic, Brian Green interview

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/03/0326_040326_...

String Theory Holographic Universe

http://physics.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A...

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547018 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:47 PM
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"I can eek four to five tanks out of $125 with my mid-nineties Crapola which I am slowly beating to death as my daily driver. I'd do better with a newer car, but I just can't talk myself into buying a new car only to start racking up 25k miles a year and subjecting it to the random nastiness of Baltimore metro-area commuting." - modern viking


I'm dreaming of a cute little 50 mile per gallon car. If the Fiat 500 or the Toyota Scion I.Q. got 50 miles per gallon I'd be tempted to buy one of them but my understanding is that neither one will come close to 50 mpg? Probably more like 40 mpg at most. Maybe in 6 years or so by the time I've been able to save up enough the Chinese or Indians will be importing some cheap little high mileage car that I can buy?

I'm not impressed with all electric cars yet. Sounds like sort of a hassle. I'm going to have to wait for the price to come down a lot before I buy one.

Artie

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547022 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:48 PM
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LD: "Did you catch my Morse Code at the end of my post? :)"


-.-- . ...

But I didn't think the quiz was that hard that you had to plea that....



-

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547031 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 3:59 PM
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NonGlitteryOpossum to the underworld where he sits today, feeling shame for having disobeyed GardenBunny. You don't mess with GardenBunny.
2828

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

okay, NonGlitteryOpossum is new to me, I wonder if he keeps a kosher kitchen or prays 5 times a day or has a hotline to Pat Robertson? :)
LD

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547034 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 4:02 PM
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LD: "Did you catch my Morse Code at the end of my post? :)"


-.-- . ...

But I didn't think the quiz was that hard that you had to plea that....


tele*********************

********************************

alright, :) we have our secret code....I must admit having to think looking at the end of this post.....but i got it! :)

I'm going ot have to refresh my memory as those brain cells have been in sleep mode for a long time.

LD

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547043 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 4:14 PM
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I'm dreaming of a cute little 50 mile per gallon car.

The only modern mass-market automobiles I can think of that get that kind of mileage are the Prius and the new Honda Insight.

Back in the 80's there was the Honda CRX HF, a standard powertrain (non-hybrid or diesel) that was typically good for around 50mpg and, if driven carefully, even more. Woefully underpowered by modern standards, but it was also woefully lightweight which gave it marginally acceptable performance. Tough to find one used that hasn't been all modded-out or crippled by neglect.

More recently there was the original Honda Insight (2000-2006), a bit of more of a deathtrap than other small cars or modern hybrids but something you had a reasonable shot of getting 70mpg in. Transmission choices were Auto, CVT and manual. I like to row my own though the CVT is supposed to get the best mileage. Only a five-year warranty on the battery pack, so even the 06's are getting to the point where that's a risk. You can find one of the later year models used for a little over ten grand, though they're a bit of a collectors item and seem to appreciate dramatically when gas prices rise (as they have been). In 2007-2008, I remember some lower-mileage versions of the later model versions being on the market for over $20k, which is probably close to exceeding the MSRP. People go bat-shirt-crazy when gas prices spike. It's worse than a snowy day in D.C.

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547048 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 4:28 PM
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10 out 12 correct to beat out 96% of the population. Not bad for a guy who isn't retired yet.

Mike

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547052 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 4:37 PM
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I gladly turn my back on representative democracy when it is being used as a rationalization to violate our natural rights.

How are your natural rights being violated in the course of local funding for public libraries?

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547057 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 4:56 PM
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I gladly turn my back on representative democracy when it is being used as a rationalization to violate our natural rights.

How are your natural rights being violated in the course of local funding for public libraries?


It's a violation of my property rights.

For more on the nature of rights, read on:
http://boards.fool.com/what-is-a-quotrightquot-28992344.aspx...

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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547058 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 5:00 PM
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Franklin "formed the first public lending library in America"...and considered by some to be "the most influential in inventing the type of society America would become." Many of his ideas appear to be in line with true conservatism today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin
Benjamin Franklin (January 17, 1706 [O.S. January 6, 1705[1]] – April 17, 1790) was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States. A noted polymath, Franklin was a leading author and printer, political theorist, politician, postmaster, scientist, inventor, satirist, civic activist, statesman, and diplomat. As a scientist, he was a major figure in the American Enlightenment and the history of physics for his discoveries and theories regarding electricity. He invented the lightning rod, bifocals, the Franklin stove, a carriage odometer, and the glass 'armonica'. He formed both the first public lending library in America and the first fire department in Pennsylvania.

Franklin earned the title of "The First American" for his early and indefatigable campaigning for colonial unity; as a writer and spokesman in London for several colonies, then as the first United States Ambassador to France, he exemplified the emerging American nation.[2] Franklin was foundational in defining the American ethos as a marriage of the practical and democratic values of thrift, hard work, education, community spirit, self-governing institutions, and opposition to authoritarianism both political and religious, with the scientific and tolerant values of the Enlightenment. In the words of historian Henry Steele Commager, "In Franklin could be merged the virtues of Puritanism without its defects, the illumination of the Enlightenment without its heat."[3] To Walter Isaacson, this makes Franklin, "the most accomplished American of his age and the most influential in inventing the type of society America would become."[4

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547060 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 5:16 PM
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"More recently there was the original Honda Insight (2000-2006), a bit of more of a deathtrap than other small cars or modern hybrids but something you had a reasonable shot of getting 70mpg in. Transmission choices were Auto, CVT and manual. I like to row my own though the CVT is supposed to get the best mileage. Only a five-year warranty on the battery pack, so even the 06's are getting to the point where that's a risk. You can find one of the later year models used for a little over ten grand, though they're a bit of a collectors item and seem to appreciate dramatically when gas prices rise (as they have been). In 2007-2008, I remember some lower-mileage versions of the later model versions being on the market for over $20k, which is probably close to exceeding the MSRP. People go bat-shirt-crazy when gas prices spike. It's worse than a snowy day in D.C. "

Latest issue of Consumer Reports just had article about 2002 Prius with over 200K miles. They ran it through the same test that they had done on one back in 2002. Same acceleration. Same gas mileage. Conclusion: battery pack doing fine at 200K miles and no problems.

The GEO Metro got 50mpg on the highway. For the last crunch, they were selling at a premium. 3 cylinder engine. Death trap for sure.

I'll take my 2007 Prius....

t.


t.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547063 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 5:58 PM
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How are your natural rights being violated in the course of local funding for public libraries?

Where does it stop? At what point has the gov't grown large enough? Wha tlimits are there? According to your argument, I have no rights that cannot be voted away by the majority. Whatever the majority wants, the majority gets.

Heck, we have a document that was suppose to limit the growth of gov't and ensure maximum liberty for the people, yet somehow statists find justification to support Big Government in a document meant to limit it.

I can live without a library, but I don't have a choice in the matter. Do-gooders have banded together and determined that I'm gonna pay for a library whether I want one or not. Just like in my facetious example of you paying for my Hawaiian vacation, once the public figures out that it can vote itself benefits out of the public purse (at someone else's expense), then it just a matter of time before the collapse comes... and we are collapsing under the weight of somethng-for-nothing right now. Don't you see it? The philosophy is bringing down societies all over world. Are you blind?

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547068 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 7:23 PM
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10 out 12 correct to beat out 96% of the population. Not bad for a guy who isn't retired yet.

Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


another one of those engineer types.....:)

LD

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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547070 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 7:32 PM
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I know it is a waste of time, but here is where taxes go--

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258

If we as a country are going to get serious about debt, bitching about libraries just is not going to cut it. Although this is showing federal expenditures, I would imagine that local, city, state expenses are similar (with library hardly registering on the budget).

Defense and Security -- 20%
SS -- 20%
Safety Net Programs 14%
Interest on Debt -- 6%
Medicare/Medicade/CHiP -- 21%

All other programs come out of 19% -- and of that, 4% describes all other not listed (see pie chart for breakdown)

Let's get out of Iraq and Afganistan and reduce our military around the world -- now there is a way to really cut the budget.

Let's remember that during the tea party rallies against health care people yelled 'get your dam gov't hands off my medicare' -- most people don't even understand that it is gov't run and do not want it touched, same with social security. No law maker is going to want to touch those programs...it's going to take some brave congressmen to make major changes to those programs...in other words, it's never going to happen.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547071 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 7:33 PM
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I can live without a library, but I don't have a choice in the matter. Do-gooders have banded together and determined that I'm gonna pay for a library whether I want one or not.

I really think there are bigger threats to individual liberty than public libraries. That's really something to get your knickers in a twist over.

I can live without another friggin Barnes & Noble or Wal Mart or another neighborhood of cookie-cutter McHouses cluttering up the landscape, but they keep building them. And I sure as heck don't have a say about it when the majority of the local taxes I pay go to fund infrastructure to keep up with this perpetual development.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547073 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 7:38 PM
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"How are your natural rights being violated in the course of local funding for public libraries?" - Modern Viking


Actually I think he explained his position very well. He doesn't think it's fair that the majority can vote away the rights of the minority. He finds it reprehensible that the majority can vote to take money from the minority to build a library which he has no interest in and won't use. Instead of taking away his rights they were taking away his money.

To me it's the exact same argument as the majority voting to make gay marriage illegal. The majority voting to take away the civil rights of the minority. What happened in California with proposition 8 making gay marriage illegal. The majority voting away the rights of the minority.

Artie

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547075 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 7:41 PM
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I"m reading the latest Glen Beck book....broke....

Imagine a stack of 100 dollar bills 7 feet high...now put one on every square inch of a football stadium NFL playing field.....a stack, not a $100 bill. BY the time you are done, you have a trillion dollars.

NOw find 13 other NFL stadiums to do that, and you have 13 trillion dollars. That is what the US owes.

It's growing at a trillion a year...another stadium filled with 7 foot high stacks of one hundred dollar bills....end to end..... year after year with no end in sight.

THat is what collapses governments and societies.

You can't go on spending what you don't have. Sooner or later, you inflate your currently so it becomes worthless, or no one will take it. Then you are toast.

t.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547076 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 7:43 PM
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lindytoes posts, "He formed both the first public lending library in America and the first fire department in Pennsylvania."


What conservatives have a problem with is forcing them to contribute money to libraries which they have no interest in using.

Same idea for people who choose to be childless being forced to contribute through taxes to schools they won't use. I can see their point. It's a logical argument.

But, like a marriage counselor once said to me when I was whining about the unfairness of life, "Oh Art grow up! Life isn't fair! Get over it!" <grin!>

Artie

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547080 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 7:51 PM
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If we as a country are going to get serious about debt, bitching about libraries just is not going to cut it.

You miss the bigger picture. Once you accept the validity of the concept that other people shuld be forced to pay for your wants you can rationalize the concept in other areas. Again, I ask the question... at what point do we have enough gov't? Obviously libs have dismissed the Constitution as a limiting device, so where is the limit?

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547083 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 7:58 PM
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All other programs come out of 19% -- and of that, 4% describes all other not listed (see pie chart for breakdown)

You fail to take into account the opportunity costs of wealth not generated due to regulatory burdens. The damage gov't does to the economy via indirect costs is greater than the direct cash outlay to support those agencies.


Let's remember that during the tea party rallies against health care people yelled 'get your dam gov't hands off my medicare' -- most people don't even understand that it is gov't run and do not want it touched, same with social security. No law maker is going to want to touch those programs...it's going to take some brave congressmen to make major changes to those programs...in other words, it's never going to happen.

The cuts are coming one way or another. It'll either be in a controlled manner or haphazardly when foreigners stop buying our debt.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547084 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 7:59 PM
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"What conservatives have a problem with is forcing them to contribute money to libraries which they have no interest in using. "

Libraries are usually funded at the local level where at least you have a say. Unfortunately, its usually a power hungry Board of Directors that wants libraries as big as they can get the voters to approve tens of millions of bond dollars to build. No one ever builds a 'frugal library' but always one better than the next town over. We got 4 real fancy ones here...and 2 utilitarian style from the 1950s or 60s. The new ones are palaces. Lots of bucks wasted. I could care less about how 'aesthetic' the library is.

There is no reason for the feds to be butting into libraries, or trying to control the process. They have no authority under the Constitution.

The feds are sticking their greedy noses into everything, trying to 'regulate it', establish 10,000 people departments with mega million budgets, fat cats, lots of 'executives' with $200,000 plus salaries, an army of 'consultants' who rip the government off with useless reports that go nowhere and useless studies, to basically try to run your life in the name of 'helping out'.

We need to chop 1/3rd of the gov't departments and 50% of gov't employees, and eliminate 80% of the consultants and report writers. We don't need their BS, and justification for even more studies and reports which is always the output of their work.

My sister has been ripping off the gov't coming up with useless reports, and the companies she has worked for have probably ripped off you and me for $50,000 million over the past 10 years. 99% of the work she did was tossed in the trash can, and most of it was studies about how 'effective' (usually totally ineffective') government programs were. The programs should have been canned along with the dozens of report writers and the 5000 people paid for these programs. Total waste.

Of course, she isn't complaining taking home $100K plus a year, plus benefits.....why should she?

DC is so corrupt and so bloated with useless people you could eliminate half of them tomorrow and it would take 5 years before anything actually stopped anywhere. MOst of it is inertia doing useless things.

t.


t.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547087 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 8:09 PM
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I really think there are bigger threats to individual liberty than public libraries. That's really something to get your knickers in a twist over.

I'm gonna try one last time to explain it and if you refuse to see it, then further discussion would be pointless.

The public has figured out that it can vote itself benefits out of the public purse. For Joe it's a library, for Mary it's something else, for Karen it's another thing, and so on. We have collectively voted ourselves benefits that someone else has to pay for: be it "the rich," tourists, or future generations. We have ran out of other people's money.


I can live without another friggin Barnes & Noble or Wal Mart or another neighborhood of cookie-cutter McHouses cluttering up the landscape, but they keep building them.

The concept of private funding of these projects evades you, doesn't it? The above examples are private property, not public.


And I sure as heck don't have a say about it when the majority of the local taxes I pay go to fund infrastructure to keep up with this perpetual development.

This is something worthy of discussion. You are making my point. Folks have gamed the system to slant the rules in their favor. They want it, yet they force others to pay for it. So you're on my side after all.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547089 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 8:12 PM
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I can live without a library, but I don't have a choice in the matter. Do-gooders have banded together and determined that I'm gonna pay for a library whether I want one or not.

I really think there are bigger threats to individual liberty than public libraries. That's really something to get your knickers in a twist over.

I can live without another friggin Barnes & Noble or Wal Mart or another neighborhood of cookie-cutter McHouses cluttering up the landscape, but they keep building them. And I sure as heck don't have a say about it when the majority of the local taxes I pay go to fund infrastructure to keep up with this perpetual development.


There are quite a few things that aren't a big threat to liberty in isolation. Too bad these things aren't in isolation. Government spending is about 44% of GDP (and this ignores the continuous increase in regulations).

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_20th_century_chart.ht...

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547093 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 8:26 PM
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"And I sure as heck don't have a say about it when the majority of the local taxes I pay go to fund infrastructure to keep up with this perpetual development. "

Our entire economic system depends upon growth.

Our borrowing depends upon having 'higher GDP' and higher tax base and higher incomes to tax in the future (after inflation).

Our ability to repay debt depends upon increasing incomes.

Folks borrow, expecting tomorrow they will earn more and will be able to pay it back.

Look to Japan for stagnation with zero growth for a decade. Painful.

Do you want to be part of a 'growing area' or a 'declining one' like MI and the rust bucket states?

Yes, you hope that sooner or later the growth in your neck of the woods stops and it moves elsewhere..... but depending where you live that could be a long time.

Meanwhile, get set to fund the expansion of suburbia....

They build 30 shopping centers a year down here. At least..and 500 strip mall type places...every year.....and another 30,000 -50,000 houses...still going up......

Better than inner city Detroit where houses are left to rot....you can't sell most of them.....and the population is fleeing.

If you don't have a growing population, you don't have enough people to keep paying for all the infrastructure you already have...plus that you will build to satisfy their needs.
and their grandkids.....and on and on...


t..

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547105 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 8:45 PM
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99% of the work she did was tossed in the trash can, and most of it was studies about how 'effective' (usually totally ineffective') government programs were.
-----------------

Hey! That's what I did. Except for the Partnership for Peace bit.

Here's a library for you, tele. The new Alexandria City main library - probably since your time. It's huge. Across the street from what used to be Cameron Station.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/samanthatoy/4338389543/

arrete

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547111 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 9:18 PM
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6 out of 12. 58% whatever that means.

It means someone also didn't do well in arithmetic?

It justifies the name of the test?

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 9:30 PM
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Huh? We haven't had "net neutrality," and it's been just fine.

Whistling past the graveyard....

Huh?


Government regulation has been proposed, therefore government regulation is the only possible way to avoid disaster.

If nobody had proposed government regulation, then the system in question could have continued to produce miracles for several more decades - but all that changed the moment someone proposed regulation.

Also please note that most of the entities most enthusiastically pushing regulation are the same ones that will allegedly rip us off and destroy the country in the absence of regulation.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547117 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 9:45 PM
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If you and I vote in favor of robbing ModernViking before we take his money, then it is just democracy in action. If we didn't vote beforehand, then it would obviously be a criminal act. I hope that clears it up. ;-)

I decree that it is in the public interest to have me, you, 2828, and fleg take a Hawaiian vacation... and I vote that ModernViking pays for it.

Okay, but I'm adding a rider to the bill that also makes him pay for all the bacon that we can eat. :-)


And hey, just because DW and I are retired doesn't mean we should have to go without a Hawaii vacation at MV's expense!

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547118 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 9:46 PM
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Actually I think he explained his position very well. He doesn't think it's fair that the majority can vote away the rights of the minority. He finds it reprehensible that the majority can vote to take money from the minority to build a library which he has no interest in and won't use. Instead of taking away his rights they were taking away his money.

OK ... but the logical conclusion of this line of thinking is that the government shouldn't be empowered to do anything because everything would somehow run afoul of the desires of some fringe minority.

This would be total anarchy. Neither realistic nor desirable. Some entity would step in to fill the void in the social order. This entity would not be in the form of a representative democracy. I don't think the many folks who, today, so plaintively seek an existence as an island would like it.


To me it's the exact same argument as the majority voting to make gay marriage illegal. The majority voting to take away the civil rights of the minority. What happened in California with proposition 8 making gay marriage illegal. The majority voting away the rights of the minority.

Point taken that if everything boiled down to a simple majority vote we would have many cases of tyranny by the majority. But that's not the case since we have constitutional tests for such things. Slavery and other such fundamental injustices may very well have sustained a majority vote but were deemed unconstitutional. Restrictions on gay marriage will fall similarly.

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Author: GringoFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547121 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 9:52 PM
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6 out of 12. 58% whatever that means.

It means someone also didn't do well in arithmetic?

Uh, I suspect it refers to scoring better than 58% of the people who took the test, not the % correct.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547123 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 10:04 PM
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I'm not impressed with all electric cars yet. Sounds like sort of a hassle. I'm going to have to wait for the price to come down a lot before I buy one.

The all-electrics do not, in my opinion, have the range to be plug-in replacements for gas-powered cars for more than maybe a fifth of American drivers.

Now if you assume that drivers will ALSO SIMULTANEOUSLY abandon their drive-everywhere approach and use mass transit wherever physically feasible and it won't take more than an extra hour or two, then the number who could switch to electrics goes up a lot... but of course then most of the savings is from the switch to mass transit rather than from the switch to electric cars, and you need to look at the cost of upgrading the mass transit system, and factor in the cost of the time lost...

.. but don't worry, this is not going to happen over the course of less than 20 years. And probably not over 40 years either.

And I am - so far - not impressed with the savings from either hybrids or tiny vehicles. Yes, things like the Smart fortwo get pretty good mileage, but they should do even better.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547128 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 10:21 PM
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Actually I think he explained his position very well. He doesn't think it's fair that the majority can vote away the rights of the minority. He finds it reprehensible that the majority can vote to take money from the minority to build a library which he has no interest in and won't use. Instead of taking away his rights they were taking away his money.

OK ... but the logical conclusion of this line of thinking is that the government shouldn't be empowered to do anything because everything would somehow run afoul of the desires of some fringe minority.

This would be total anarchy. Neither realistic nor desirable. Some entity would step in to fill the void in the social order. This entity would not be in the form of a representative democracy. I don't think the many folks who, today, so plaintively seek an existence as an island would like it.


It is absolutely ridiculous to make the leap from "we need a government to protect our rights..." to "...therefore it is proper for government to do anything that a majority says is right."

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547131 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 10:38 PM
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It is absolutely ridiculous to make the leap from "we need a government to protect our rights..." to "...therefore it is proper for government to do anything that a majority says is right."

This is why I decided to just drop it. In the mind of a liberal limited government = anarchy. There is nothing more to add.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547133 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 10:40 PM
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I'm gonna try one last time to explain it and if you refuse to see it, then further discussion would be pointless.

Honestly, I see where you are coming from but it's apparent you've gotten to the point where you see any government spending as completely indefensible and a violation of your personal liberties. Whatever. Let me muddle through this one bit at a time and if we don't come out the other end with some kind of mutual understanding then I give up as well.


The public has figured out that it can vote itself benefits out of the public purse. For Joe it's a library, for Mary it's something else, for Karen it's another thing, and so on.

Yes, there is an element of entitlement in how people percieve the function of government. There are also a great many folks and/or entities that happily game the system to either avoid contributing to the public trust or to extract as much as they can from it. I believe it is more so now than it has ever been in the past. Altogether, this is not a good thing.


We have collectively voted ourselves benefits that someone else has to pay for: be it "the rich," tourists, or future generations. We have ran out of other people's money.

Referendums on capital projects are tough to dispute, as the only challenge that can be levied against them is if the functional outcome of the referendum is to do something unconstitutional.

But you raise a point that harkens to the larger issue of our federal debt, so I'll note two things in that regard:
1) We are in desperate need of revenue to pay off the national debt and to make our government solvent. This will require a combination of frugality and increased revenue. As for the revenue part, one can not draw blood from a stone. The middle and lower class is tapped out; the wealthy are not. History teaches us that 50% marginal tax rates will not stifle business investment, and that is where we should extract the necessary revenue to set things right. It is the wealthier classes that have disproportionately benefited from reforms to progressive tax rates over the past 50 years, and we're starting to find out it was all done on a credit card. Time to pay it back.

2) I keep hearing people say we should fire all the government bureaucrats and shut down federal departments to save money. In reality, such a drastic measure would save us about 5% annually, which makes this a stupid suggestion though that's not to say there aren't avenues for maximizing efficiencies. Complicating this is that there isn't agreement on what are the core functions of government at the federal level, and there hasn't been since the days of the founders. Has the federal bureaucracy metastasized into malignancy? In many ways yes, in other ways the growth has been both appropriate and beneficial. My point being that we need systems to run a modern society and operating the federal government on a skeleton crew is neither a panacea to our budget/debt problems nor a pragmatic approach to running this country.


The concept of private funding of these projects evades you, doesn't it? The above examples are private property, not public.

Very simple - It doesn't matter. If anything, the private development is worse because it represents a third party (developers) having an undue influence on how county tax revenue is spent to accomodate their adventures in profiteering. Yes, I know the developers are (usually) footing the bill for the land and the on-site construction. But county taxpayers are the ones who get stuck paying for the consequences of that development.

Case in point, a builder in my county pays an "impact fee" of $6,000 per single-family dwelling of new construction. Say he builds a subdivision of 1,000 three-to-five bedroom houses. The builder builds the internal roads in the subdivision and whatever marginal improvements are warranted by the traffic study at points of entry to state or county roads (turn lanes, traffic signals, etc.) The builder pays for internal water and sewer if the subdivision is going to be on the public system. Beyond that, the builder builds the houses, turns the operation over to the sales office and gets the eff out of dodge. That $6 million impact fee is barely a whiff of a down payment on a new elementary school, capacity upgrades to the public water & sewage treatment plants, and the roadway improvements that people will cry for at public meetings, asking why these weren't done before they were allowed to build. Such capital expenses (that the taxpayers didn't ask for) that arise from the endless cycle of development and catch-up infrastructure construction account for roughly 40% of the budget. In other words, 40% of my taxes go to pay for the whims of private developers that give me NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER, and unlike a library, it's not something that I can choose to take advantage of.


This is something worthy of discussion. You are making my point. Folks have gamed the system to slant the rules in their favor. They want it, yet they force others to pay for it. So you're on my side after all.

In a roundabout way, yes. I think we see eye-to-eye through a glass, darkly. The main differnece being that you seem to see government itself as the problem while I tend to see government as the unfortunate dupe of those who would choose to exploit it unfairly (part of the problem being that it is something so easily corrupted). The solution is far from straightforward.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547135 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 10:46 PM
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It is absolutely ridiculous to make the leap from "we need a government to protect our rights..." to "...therefore it is proper for government to do anything that a majority says is right."

I agree. Probably why I never inferred anything like that.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547138 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 10:59 PM
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"It means someone also didn't do well in arithmetic? It justifies the name of the test?" - warrl


I think it's a percentile thing like the SAT which means that I did better than 58% of the people who have taken the test. I actually thought I did rather poorly but since I don't watch or read the news I figure I did okay. I recogized a few names from posts on this message board.

Artie

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 11:08 PM
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"And I am - so far - not impressed with the savings from either hybrids or tiny vehicles. Yes, things like the Smart fortwo get pretty good mileage, but they should do even better." - warrl

Yes I absolutely agree. And what I find especially irksome is that in Europe they have cars that get upwards of 75 Miles to the gallon (Fiat) and we aren't allowed to have them here because of nannystatism. It is so hypocritical because they allow in motorcycles which are infinitely more dangerous and they disallow small fuel efficient vehicles like the Indian Tata Nano and the Chinese Chery and the little Fiat diesels all of which are cheap and get way better gas mileage than most cars here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"but don't worry, this is not going to happen over the course of less than 20 years. And probably not over 40 years either." - warrl

In which case I needn't worry about it because I more than likely will be dead, or at least close to it. The chances of me lasting another 40 years are slim to none.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547144 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/30/2010 11:58 PM
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Honestly, I see where you are coming from but it's apparent you've gotten to the point where you see any government spending as completely indefensible and a violation of your personal liberties.

Not true. There are common functions that are necessary for any society to function: protection from aggression (internal and external), a system to resolve disputes, contract enforcement, public department of health/sanitation, fire, and roads.

Without getting into too fine of a point on it, we can argue if government is the most efficient and effective way to deliver these services. The snow situation in NYC lends weight to the argument that other alternatives need to be considered for public services, but that's another argument for another time.


Yes, there is an element of entitlement in how people percieve the function of government. There are also a great many folks and/or entities that happily game the system to either avoid contributing to the public trust or to extract as much as they can from it. I believe it is more so now than it has ever been in the past. Altogether, this is not a good thing.

Sadly, it is the nature of man to want something for nothing, or at least pay as little as possible for it. Mankind has discovered that it is easier to steal than it is to work.

Mankind has had government for thousands of years. With very few exceptions, mankind's social history has been one of ruthless exploitation of his fellow man. Might making right.

Obviously, there is something within us collectively that prefers the certainty of exploitation by tyrants over the uncertainty of liberty.

I feel a speech coming on, so I'll just move onto the next point.


Referendums on capital projects are tough to dispute, as the only challenge that can be levied against them is if the functional outcome of the referendum is to do something unconstitutional.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should. I'm sure you've heard the following quote before....

"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it." One of the lessons of history is that government grows slowly over time, taking liberty one piece at a time... all for a good cause, of course.


We are in desperate need of revenue to pay off the national debt and to make our government solvent.

No, this is but a symptom of the disease. The disease is that others are expected to care for us and we take no responsibility for our own affairs. If the government somehow came into $20 trillion tomorrow, is there any doubt that in a few years we'd be in the same fiscal boat as we are today? You are what you think and as long as we collectively feel that the world owes us something, there will always be someone around who will promise you the moon... for a price.



This will require a combination of frugality and increased revenue. As for the revenue part, one can not draw blood from a stone. The middle and lower class is tapped out; the wealthy are not.

Karl Marx lives!!!! The Class Struggle endures!!!!


History teaches us that 50% marginal tax rates will not stifle business investment,

I know of no such history, please enlighten me. I cannot remember the exact wording right now and it's too late to Google it, but Lincoln is quoted as saying: "You cannot enrich the poor by pulling down the rich," or words to that effect. You are espousing social cannibalism.


It is the wealthier classes that have disproportionately benefited from reforms to progressive tax rates over the past 50 years, and we're starting to find out it was all done on a credit card. Time to pay it back.

So the worker is not worthy to keep the fruits of his labors? Liberals always feel that the wealth producers will always continue to produce wealth reagrdless of the insults tossed their way. This is not the case and THAT is what history teaches us.



I keep hearing people say we should fire all the government bureaucrats and shut down federal departments to save money. In reality, such a drastic measure would save us about 5% annually,

I wonder where you get your figures. At least 90% of what the Feds do is not Constitutionally authorized and that's just the direct costs. What about the wealth that never gets created in the first place due to regulatory red tape or the person who is discouraged from even trying to work hard to resolve his own problems, but rather to wait for Mama Bird to drop a worm into his mouth as he sits in the nest?

Wealth is not created by some bureacrat in Washington, Lansing, Sacramento, or whatever city is your state's capital. It is created by individuals responding to the natural human desire for a better life for them and their children.


Complicating this is that there isn't agreement on what are the core functions of government at the federal level, and there hasn't been since the days of the founders.

I disagree. The Constitution explicitly tells us what the Feds can and cannot do. There is an amendment process to rectify changing desires.


Has the federal bureaucracy metastasized into malignancy? In many ways yes, in other ways the growth has been both appropriate and beneficial.

Look at what your "appropriate and beneficial" growth has gotten us? Name the governmental function and it is bankrupt: SS (check), Medicare (check), Amtrak (check), Post Office (check). Government leaves a trail of destruction everywhere it goes. Do private entities go belly up? Sure, but it's their money and a private entity's bankruptcy doesn't threaten the entire society, like Uncle Sam. Once again, nobody spends someone else's money as carefully as they spend their own.



My point being that we need systems to run a modern society and operating the federal government on a skeleton crew is neither a panacea to our budget/debt problems nor a pragmatic approach to running this country.

Government has the Reverse Midas Touch. Everything it touches turns to carp. What is the Magic Number for graft, corruption, incompetence, and theft that is necessary for you to accept realize that? How many bribes, insider deals, waste, and what-have-you will it take to shake your delusions?


while I tend to see government as the unfortunate dupe of those who would choose to exploit it unfairly (part of the problem being that it is something so easily corrupted).

You mean dupes like Harry Reid? A man employed by gov't for all but two years of his adult life after graduating from law school? The man raises five kids on a government salary and is a multimillionaire? Yup, poor Harry.

Or Maxine Waters steering bailout money to a small bank that her husband just happens to own $350,000 worth of stock in?


The solution is far from straightforward.

People respond to incentives. If you concentrate power in one central entity then control of that entity almost becomes a matter of financial life or death. You don't think that that gives corrupt power trippers an incentive to slant things their way?

If you lessen the reward for controlling the central entity, then they'll have no reason to spend all of this time/money trying to influence it. Folks will be far more inclined to offer something folks will willingly buy in the marketplace instead.

You're right. Perfection is not an option, so we do the next best thing.

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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547147 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 12:11 AM
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Yes, I know the developers are (usually) footing the bill for the land and the on-site construction. But county taxpayers are the ones who get stuck paying for the consequences of that development.

ABSOLUTELY. I live in a county that has been growing and growing and is one of the smallest (land-wise) counties in Georgia (of 159 counties 2nd only to Texas). When we moved here in 1992 there was one high school, elementary and middle school. Now there are two high schools, two middle schools and I lost count of elementary but I would guess five. We now have a motel and massive new growth in real estate, commercial property, etc., etc. We the taxpayers are paying for all those schools, the new roads, all the other improvements including a new exit off the bypass around Athens due to the high volume of traffic near my house. They have revamped the roads near my house year after year due to the high volume of traffic.

I see the problem as a viscous cycle of build, need more schools, build more to get taxes to pay for the schools, build houses for more people, etc. etc. This used to be an agricultural county but not any more. We've paved over paradise.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547149 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 12:20 AM
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I'm gonna try one last time to explain it and if you refuse to see it, then further discussion would be pointless.

Honestly, I see where you are coming from but it's apparent you've gotten to the point where you see any government spending as completely indefensible...


I see that you are resorting to the Goofyhoofy technique of distorting our position in order to criticize the distorted position. I can't say that I blame you. It's your only hope.

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Author: riprock45 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547152 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 4:51 AM
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I got 'em all.

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547163 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 10:31 AM
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You really think so? Considering that a county library system might be serving 1000-2000 patrons at any given time, that's a lot of hardware to maintain.

I haven't set foot in a library since getting a computer/internet in the 90s except to vote.

I think the cost would be made up for in smaller building. Could probably serve same amount of people with a 400 sq. ft. "office" compared to a 10,000 to 20,000 sq. ft. complex. Save on heating/cooling. Would need only 1 IT person instead of 10 "re-stock" boys, etc. Don't have to worry about replacing/finding misplaced books. Or damaged books. A fire won't destroy all your inventory, you can just re-download it with the new computer.

Yes there is something about holding a book/magazine/newspaper in your hands, but I see them as a thing of the past. Why do you think so many newspapers/magazines are going under? Places like Borders and Barnes & Noble are struggling.

Using a buggy whip was nostalgic too.

JLC

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547164 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 10:31 AM
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The Class Struggle endures!!!!

Always has, always will.


I know of no such history, please enlighten me. I cannot remember the exact wording right now and it's too late to Google it, but Lincoln is quoted as saying: "You cannot enrich the poor by pulling down the rich," or words to that effect. You are espousing social cannibalism.

The top marginal tax rate was over 90% for 20 years following WWII, a period widely recognized as America's "golden age". Vietnam, and a drop in the top rate to 70%, coincided with a period of significant civic and social upheaval. The "drop taxes and go to war" model would be repeated to futility through the modern day. Surely you recall the top rate dropping to 50% under Reagan and it was like everyone thought he was Santa Claus. Now 39.6% is going to stifle business growth? Give me a break.

Alternatively, we can just default on our debt. This is an option of disputable merit.



Government has the Reverse Midas Touch. Everything it touches turns to carp. What is the Magic Number for graft, corruption, incompetence, and theft that is necessary for you to accept realize that? How many bribes, insider deals, waste, and what-have-you will it take to shake your delusions?

I disagree ... sometimes. Interstate highways are the engine of our economy and would not exist except for government action at the federal and state level. The moon landing demonstrates the astonishing technological leaps we can make when we bring all our resources to bear on a problem and strip away the bureaucratic red tape. The CDC has eliminated diseases that regularly claimed lives only decades ago. There are glowing successes amidst all the "carp".


If you lessen the reward for controlling the central entity, then they'll have no reason to spend all of this time/money trying to influence it.

The above summarizes the problem nicely, and I'd like to stop on this point of reflection. You've left me with some thoughts to cogitate on but I'm going to abandon this thread and move on to other things for a long holiday weekend.

It's been a fulfilling exchange, Wolf. We may come to disagreement on how we got to this point or where we go from here but it's safe to say we're both seeking a better path forward.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547165 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 10:31 AM
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How did my posting a pew quiz get turned into a discussion about library funding? I didn't even set out to create duality with that post.

2828

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 10:33 AM
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Yes there is something about holding a book/magazine/newspaper in your hands, but I see them as a thing of the past. Why do you think so many newspapers/magazines are going under? Places like Borders and Barnes & Noble are struggling.

Using a buggy whip was nostalgic too.
----------------------------------
They aren't being very "progressive" are they JLC <g>?

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547167 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 10:37 AM
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Yes there is something about holding a book/magazine/newspaper in your hands, but I see them as a thing of the past. Why do you think so many newspapers/magazines are going under? Places like Borders and Barnes & Noble are struggling.

Using a buggy whip was nostalgic too.
----------------------------------
I was just thinking, seriously i was, you know how liberals always talk about "food miles" and all that type of stuff? Shouldn't they be against paper newspapers and magazines and books? Think of all the magazine miles needed to get each magazine in the hands of the reader. OK, i'm done thinking for today.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547168 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 10:43 AM
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I see the problem as a viscous cycle of build, need more schools, build more to get taxes to pay for the schools, build houses for more people, etc. etc. This used to be an agricultural county but not any more. We've paved over paradise.


Mmmm Hmmm. Gotta be chasing that tax revenue, dontcha know? Like the snake that bites because it's a snake, the developers are just doing what they do. Can't blame the homebuyers, either. This is purely the result of poor planning / greed / roads to hell being paved with good intentions within local government.

I don't know how things are run in your neck of the woods, but it doesn't hurt that most of our Council is made up of developers. Talk about gaming the system.

We've paved over paradise, and put up a parking lot. Not my favorite song, but Joni Mitchell sure hit that nail square on the head with the lyrics.

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 10:47 AM
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OK, i'm done thinking for today.
-------------

Time for champagne?

arrete

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547170 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 10:56 AM
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OK, i'm done thinking for today.
-------------

Time for champagne?

arrete
------------
I'm a tad bit hungover, had a few too many Ice Homes last night. No time to stop now though, it's New Years Eve. Champagne sounds good, maybe ModernViking can send me a few bottles <g>.

2828

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 11:15 AM
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"The top marginal tax rate was over 90% for 20 years following WWII, a period widely recognized as America's "golden age". Vietnam, and a drop in the top rate to 70%, coincided with a period of significant civic and social upheaval. The "drop taxes and go to war" model would be repeated to futility through the modern day. Surely you recall the top rate dropping to 50% under Reagan and it was like everyone thought he was Santa Claus. Now 39.6% is going to stifle business growth? Give me a break." - Modern Viking
-------------------------------


What is the top rate right now? I need to know because I plan on winning the Megamillions lottery jackpot tonight and if I decide to take the cash option it is up to $154 Million dollars and want to know how much I'll have to pay in Federal Income taxes?

Tennessee doesn't have a state income tax so I won't have to pay any state taxes on it. Just federal tax.

Artie

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 11:21 AM
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What is the top rate right now? I need to know because I plan on winning the Megamillions lottery jackpot tonight and if I decide to take the cash option it is up to $154 Million dollars and want to know how much I'll have to pay in Federal Income taxes?
------------------------------------------------
It's 37-38-39ish. Think about that. the government taking over 30% of your earnings over a certain point. I just don't see how that should EVER happen, it's insanity. I like the King Arthur 10% tax, that should be plenty to pay for everything that's in Constitution as legitimate functions of the government.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547182 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 11:34 AM
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The top marginal tax rate was over 90% for 20 years following WWII, a period widely recognized as America's "golden age". Vietnam, and a drop in the top rate to 70%, coincided with a period of significant civic and social upheaval. The "drop taxes and go to war" model would be repeated to futility through the modern day. Surely you recall the top rate dropping to 50% under Reagan and it was like everyone thought he was Santa Claus. Now 39.6% is going to stifle business growth? Give me a break.

No, give *us* a break. Even Christina Romer (Obama's former economic advisor) isn't willing to maintain the liberal delusion that taxes don't stifle business growth.

"The resulting estimates indicate that tax increases are highly contractionary. The effects are strongly significant, highly robust, and much larger than those obtained using broader measures of tax changes. The large effect stems in considerable part from a powerful negative effect of tax increases on investment."

http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/~cromer/RomerDraft307.pdf

Is she wrong?

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Author: NewEchota Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547190 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 12:11 PM
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I cannot remember the exact wording right now and it's too late to Google it, but Lincoln is quoted as saying: "You cannot enrich the poor by pulling down the rich," or words to that effect.


Those are not Lincoln's words, though they've mistakenly been attributed to him since William Boetcker wrote them in 1942.

Visit your local public library and read through They Never Said It: A Book of Fake Quotes, Misquotes, and Misleading Attributions, and in addition to the misleading Lincoln attribution already mentioned you'll discover that Lenin never said anything about "useful idiots," Jefferson never said "That government is best which governs least" and Greeley never said "Go west, young man."

One thing Jefferson, who knew a thing or two about education and libraries, did write, is this: "And even should the cloud of barbarism and despotism again obscure the science and libraries of Europe, this country remains to preserve and restore light and liberty to them."

Happy New Year!

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547196 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 12:32 PM
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"The top marginal tax rate was over 90% for 20 years following WWII, a period widely recognized as America's "golden age"."

The main reasons it was seen as 'good' was we had removed a half million from the population *young energetic types' leaving a shortage of labor, had amassed tremendous production capabilities due to ramping up during WW2, and had a baby boom that necessitated a housing binge to house them all. ALso, for five years you couldn't buy new cars or electronics due to the war.

We had destroyed all the factories of our competitors so they didn't have any ability to compete.

The stock market didn't do much, and in fact, it was pretty droll through the 1950s and 1060s with mini-recessions, lots of job turmoil, etc. The US car makers and most other industries had total monopolies....the big 3 auto makers....about 5 TV makers.....

Jobs and stocks did better in the 1990s.

Marginal high rates killed a lot of potential investments and caused a lot of 'tax avoidance' decisions, not the best for the country but the best for the individual investors.




" Interstate highways are the engine of our economy and would not exist except for government action at the federal and state level."

We could have done the same with private toll roads. In fact, most east coast states had toll roads. NJ, NY, CT, MA, PA, IN, IL....and most of them were simply incorporated into the interstate system and still charge tolls.


" The moon landing demonstrates the astonishing technological leaps we can make when we bring all our resources to bear on a problem and strip away the bureaucratic red tape."

Ya gotta be joking. There was stadiums full of red tape. We just threw large sums of money against a specific project.


"The CDC has eliminated diseases that regularly claimed lives only decades ago. There are glowing successes amidst all the "carp"."

Polio? That was erased through a program (March of Dimes) started under Teddy Roosevelt!

Malaria? Now becoming a major problem since the eco-whacks managed to get the most effective solution banned - DDT.

Common cold? Still with us.


t.

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Author: synchronicityII Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547215 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 2:18 PM
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People would build roads, libraries, etc. because it is in their self-interest to do so.

And of course you have COUNTLESS historical examples to back this up, right? Because the private sector has ALWAYS done a better job of building infrastructure than anything involving government. Why, once government got involved the whole process got much worse, right?

-synchronicity

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547216 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 2:31 PM
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And of course you have COUNTLESS historical examples to back this up, right?

Did you read the entire thread? Did you note the Carnegie example? How aboout this one from my hometown:

http://www.bay-journal.com/bay/1he/people/fp-sage-henry-w.ht...

Henry W. Sage contributions to this area are notable and many. The Sage Library which is now over a century old was a gift from him to the lumber town he founded along the west bank of the Saginaw River. It was the first building built solely for library purposes and is still standing today.


Because the private sector has ALWAYS done a better job of building infrastructure than anything involving government. Why, once government got involved the whole process got much worse, right?

It is obvious that your mind is closed. We dare talk impiously about your god, so you instinctively get defensive. And yes, you do have it correct. The private sector does virtually EVERYTHING better than the public sector. One thing I know about liberals is that I could offer a thousand examples and your mind will not change, so why bother?

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Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 2:57 PM
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Did you read the entire thread? Did you note the Carnegie example? How aboout this one from my hometown:

http://www.bay-journal.com/bay/1he/people/fp-sage-henry-w.ht......

Henry W. Sage contributions to this area are notable and many. The Sage Library which is now over a century old was a gift from him to the lumber town he founded along the west bank of the Saginaw River. It was the first building built solely for library purposes and is still standing today.


Yes, there are examples of private funding for libraries and even roads. But they've been dwarfed throughout human history by the PUBLIC spending on such items.

It is obvious that your mind is closed. We dare talk impiously about your god, so you instinctively get defensive. And yes, you do have it correct. The private sector does virtually EVERYTHING better than the public sector. One thing I know about liberals is that I could offer a thousand examples and your mind will not change, so why bother?

My "God"? YGTBSM. If "the private sector" does virtually EVERYTHING better, then why is it that throughout the entire arc of human history, continuing to today, that ALL of the most powerful/dominant/technologically advanced nations/states/empires of the world have had a strong government with broad administrative powers? Why haven't dominant world powers sprung up in areas where government was weak to nonexistent? (Don't tell me, "property rights", correct? Most everything else is gummint bunk).

There are legitimate arguments to be made about the size of government at all levels, the proper allocation of legitimate government powers (however one chooses to define that) to the federal/state/local level, how those powers should be administrated, and how they should be funded. In no way shape or form do I think our current government is "perfect" or that "more government" is always the answer, and I agree that 'too much" government can stifle individual freedom and therefore innovation and throttle economic development.

But reading this board, I see assertions which fly in the face of actual observed history over the centuries. I see the most advanced nations of the world have fairly strong governments dealing with matters where markets are by nature slow to self-correct. I see examples of economic growth and prosperity due to many GOVERNMENT programs (Erie Canal? TVA? Apollo Program? Manhattan Project?) where the private sector would not enter due to issues of long term uncertain payoffs and benefits going to parties beyond those of the initial innovators. I realize that the counter-argument is often "the private sector would have eventually done it better" or words to that effect, but again, when I look at the long arc of human history I see scant evidence of that being the case.

Government is far from perfect, it is subject to all sorts of issues such as being "captured" by special interests or making less than optimal decisions based on imperfect information and not clearing as quickly as the private sector might when better information becomes available. But my brief list above shows areas where the private sector is loath to tread where "government" can intervene with a positive impact. Heck, look at traffic, do we have private stop lights? Do you think we should? Is a red light telling you to stop when there is no traffic around a pernicious government assault on your natural rights?

Government can screw stuff up, but it also can do things right, and human history shows on balance that a fair degree of government involvement propels countreis forward. (Yes, too much can drive them backward, I know all about the USSR, etc.).

But in a world where speaking of public funding for libraries as yet another assault on your natural rights (not even getting into AMOUNT of such funding, but the fact that such funding is being done AT ALL), I must be a commie-marxist-socialist liberal or something.

-synchronicity

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547224 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 3:23 PM
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My "God"? YGTBSM. If "the private sector" does virtually EVERYTHING better, then why is it that throughout the entire arc of human history, continuing to today, that ALL of the most

Because mankind is a defective creature. When given a choice between peaceful co-existence and coercion we (collectively) follow tyrants. When Jesus called us "sheep" he wasn't paying us a compliment.

Riddle me this, since I am obviously so intellectually deficient, why is it that the US of A is so economically advanced? There are cultures older than ours, so that isn't the answer.

All of the examples you cite were made possible because gov't took from the productive capacity of others and spent it on things that the rulers wanted instead. So if coercion is the sole reason for greatness, why did Communism fizzle so badly? Are citizen slaves the mark of greatness?

Are pyramids, aquaducts, etc... the sole measure of a society's success? How did the common man live? How does a middle class develop? Mankind has always been the ruling elite and the impoverished masses.

So what happens to folks when they assume political control? When they were on the outside they were unable to run their own lives, but now, not only can they run their own lives, but everyone else's too. How is that? What magical change happens to them to give them such wisdom?

But again, I read the all-too-common argument that limited gov't = anarchy as a way to discredit libertarians. I beleive that mankind is better served through voluntary exchanges, and such a system does pop up in humankind's history from time to time, but it is not the norm.

All you advocate is the reversion to the mean.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547226 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 3:34 PM
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My "God"? YGTBSM. If "the private sector" does virtually EVERYTHING better, then why is it that throughout the entire arc of human history, continuing to today, that ALL of the most powerful/dominant/technologically advanced nations/states/empires of the world have had a strong government with broad administrative powers? Why haven't dominant world powers sprung up in areas where government was weak to nonexistent? (Don't tell me, "property rights", correct? Most everything else is gummint bunk).

The United States is one example. Total government spending (federal, state, and local) as a percentage of GDP was around 7% in 1903 (to put this in perspective, it is about 44% of GDP now). Even as late as 1929, it was only about 11%. We all know how prosperous the US was despite not having a "strong government with broad administrative powers."

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_20th_century_chart.ht...

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547269 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 5:49 PM
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What is the top rate right now? I need to know because I plan on winning the Megamillions lottery jackpot tonight and if I decide to take the cash option it is up to $154 Million dollars and want to know how much I'll have to pay in Federal Income taxes?

Tennessee doesn't have a state income tax so I won't have to pay any state taxes on it. Just federal tax.

Artie


I think you know (or could easily find out) the top marginal rate is 35% on income over $375k (or thereabouts).

Don't sign that winning ticket until you talk to a lawyer to set up a trust and sign the ticket in the name of the trust. Or you'll end up like one of my coworkers who won the $250,000 second prize earlier this month. He has been inundated with requests for money by previously unknown relatives and various hardcases. One woman sent him her three-month overdue electric bill in the hopes that he'd pay it.

Good luck. I'm in for $5 myself.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547271 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 5:53 PM
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Champagne sounds good, maybe ModernViking can send me a few bottles <g>.

Can it wait until I win the lottery tonight? I'll be in a more giving mood after that.

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547272 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 5:56 PM
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Is she wrong?

Yes.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547273 of 734592
Subject: Re: Pew Quiz Date: 12/31/2010 5:57 PM
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