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In your opinion, in the big picture of life, the universe and everything, which of these is the most egregious form of environmental terrorism?
Flying around by yourself in an executive jet churning out CO2
Fracking near communities' groundwater supplies
Catching the last whale / tuna / cod in the ocean
Having 4 or more kids
Causing a massive oil spill - BP, Exxon, Saddam in Gulf War I

Click here to see results so far.

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I could have added “destroying rainforests” but TMF only allow 5 options in a poll.



You’ll have seen Notehound’s superb post on food shortages. But is it about overall food shortages (food supply divided by total population) or mainly distribution of resources?

A few notes of my own

1. Life is all about growth, life wants to put resources under the control of its own genes. This is its purpose. Any other purpose, and that life form gets swamped by another. The law of the jungle is engrained or we wouldn’t be here.

2. The world’s human population has more than doubled just since I was born. That’s just incredible in such a short timespan for such a mature species.

3. When I see a TV program asking me to help a poor mother in Ethiopia and her 6 starving kids ... I do a double take. What?????


Or there’s Afghanistan. Kabul’s population increased from 500,000 to 4 million in the past 10 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabul#Demographics

Might this have something to do with it?

The more than $6 billion a year Afghanistan receives from foreign governments in civilian aid (excluding military spending) represents nearly 40% of gross domestic product.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/afghanistan/story/...

So what happens when we pull out and leave them to it? Having fostered this

Population growth rate
2.22% (2011 est.)
Total fertility rate
5.64 children born/woman (2011 est.)


Are they going to sell us more poppies for our heroin industries? What else can they do?

It looks like we should add to the list “Meddling in stable communities so as to enable them to grow their population to unsustainable levels thereby ensuring widescale distress at some point.”


Can we stand by while there is suffering today because we believe assisting will create more suffering in the future? Tough call.
I’m glad to see Bill Gates, a major terrorist in this respect by only “helping” people live well (and procreate energetically) has suddenly woken up on the issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjINFTa3LMc

But even the tangential discussion on the issue by Gates immediately engenders immense pushback as you can see in the comments. People want freedom to procreate as they wish. And the human urge is to go for it. Was the Catholic church waging a demographic war against everyone else by banning contraception? Is Islam waging a demographic war against the west now? Many are very touchy when the subject is raised, suggesting they are.

The interesting (from a philosophical angle) and sad (from a human-race wellbeing angle) is that if life is all about putting one’s genes in control of resources, then those who perform population terrorism ... win. Because once a child is born we ascribe the same right to him/her no matter is he/she is a single child or has 6 siblings. Unless something is done on a planet wide basis to level off the population, then the terrorists win. Even if their actions induce a horrific war for space and resources in which half the world dies ... the instigators’ genes will live on in a higher quantity than the genes of the more socially conscious.

And the way we are going now, and have been my lifetime, the population of the fast growing countries will totally swamp the few advanced countries that have levelled their populations.



Even sensible people ether don’t get it, or maybe can’t control their primordial instincts ... or maybe think they are above the fray ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/shortcuts/2012/nov/27/dia...

The wife of the new governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, has her own pleasingly edgy views on everything from the environment to equality of income

In a recent piece on inequality, the mother of four wrote warmly about the Occupy movement

Then there is her environmental campaigning ... She writes that she has "seen, firsthand, the devastation that our willful refusal to change our consumerist habits is wreaking on marginal communities".



And the lasting legacy to the planet of this eco warrior is ... a carbon footprint doubled for all of eternity (unless she advocates sterilising half her offspring?).



We thought nuclear war was the big issue? Seems to have been solved.

We thought the distribution of wealth was the issue. Do rich people, movers and shakers who have created wealth, deserve to keep so much of it? Tough call, but this issue doesn’t grow exponentially for ever.

The really big issue seems to be that it looks like only a real constraint, one that makes life almost but not quite unlivable, is the future of the human race. And while some intelligent guys and gals here disagree, there are millions out there who don’t care about you or me, and who are busy, consciously or unconsciously, rather like ants or locusts in practice, making sure this miserable future happens.
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*(6) ALL OF THE ABOVE
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Solo Jetting: Nuts and usually ego-ugly but inherently small scale

Fracking: I am a died in the wool environmentalist and oil industry critic, but I have seen evidence of harm in only 2 instances of under regulated crooks -- small scale.

Eating the last whatever: How about catching the next to last? and etc. What drives that? Oh

Having 4 or more kids. Yeap. Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe after g-d the creator and EDUCATING WOMEN.


david fb
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Having 4 or more kids. Yeap.

Trouble is, you're fighting thousands of years of government and religous propaganda, when more peasants ment more production of food and goods to enrich the lord and more soldiers to take riches away from someone else, to enrich the lord.

Steve
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Trouble is, you're fighting thousands of years of government and religous propaganda, when more peasants ment more production of food and goods to enrich the lord and more soldiers to take riches away from someone else, to enrich the lord.

Steve


Yup, many advanced nations are effectively paying people to have kids. C. got a full year maternity leave with full pay (topped up by her employer) for each of hers.

I think the US has the least amount of benefits in the advanced world?

How would one limit the number of kids as I'm sure we all saw the reaction and outcome of the Chinese one child policy?


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/05/22/maternity-leaves-aro...

I don't buy the "Fracking near communities' groundwater supplies" as I think the statement is deliberately inflammatory, how many places actually do that? I'm sure there may be cases where someone's well is close by but that person is probably being well paid for the risk?


OT - Drones.

What's with all the whining about killing Americans, are these guys enemy combatants? If so and they are killing Americans why would they have some sort of special exemptions? Of course I'm watching GPS again. What can I say we doubled up on the snowfall from the storm last night. }};-()

Tim
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How would one limit the number of kids as I'm sure we all saw the reaction and outcome of the Chinese one child policy?

We've known the answer since the late 1700s or early 1800s.

The answer is prosperity.
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What's with all the whining about killing Americans, are these guys enemy combatants?

Thing is, some of them are civilians, not members of a foreign military. If they aren't charging a US military position with an AK in hand, offing them, without the Constitutionally required "due process of law", edges close to Stalin's disposal of people based entirely on someone's unchallenged denounciation.

Steve
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OTOH, consider someone walking toward the detonating mechanism of a huge bomb in a shopping center. At that point he isn't doing anything , just walking.At what point do you decide to shoot him, rather than let him possibly kill a hundred shoppers?

The 5th amendment is clear that "due process of law" is needed in general. The exceptions are hard to interpret because the whole amendment is full of oddly placed commas. Nevertheless the SC has mostly ruled over the years that these amendments were put in place to protect the populace from the government, thus when in doubt any bending should favor the former.

The present secrecy and lack of rigorous safeguards is troubling. I think everything should be documented, procedures should be followed, and everything released to the public 10 years later. Statute of limitations for any who may have broken the law should not begin running until the documents are released. Perhaps prosecution should be in the hands of an independent agency not appointed by the President.
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They're drilling through aquifers that serve communities here. There isn't any regulation so there isn't any problem... right?

Sometimes I am reminded that the favored footwear here in NZ is Jandals (Flip-Flops, Flap-Flaps depending on your region), Gumboots and Bare Feet.

Notice the lack of those pesky shoelaces that are too complex to tie. ;-)
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I see the having four or more kids has the most votes.

Where are these kids? One in the US uses far more resources then 4 or 6 in Ethiopia.

Nemo
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<<<What's with all the whining about killing Americans, are these guys enemy combatants?>>>

Thing is, some of them are civilians, not members of a foreign military. If they aren't charging a US military position with an AK in hand, offing them, without the Constitutionally required "due process of law", edges close to Stalin's disposal of people based entirely on someone's unchallenged denounciation.

Steve

....

The 5th amendment is clear that "due process of law" is needed in general. The exceptions are hard to interpret because the whole amendment is full of oddly placed commas. Nevertheless the SC has mostly ruled over the years that these amendments were put in place to protect the populace from the government, thus when in doubt any bending should favor the former.

The present secrecy and lack of rigorous safeguards is troubling. I think everything should be documented, procedures should be followed, and everything released to the public 10 years later. Statute of limitations for any who may have broken the law should not begin running until the documents are released. Perhaps prosecution should be in the hands of an independent agency not appointed by the President.



How exactly does one know if a member of the Taliban or al- Qaeda is civilian or military?

Er, Police kill people every day without "due process of law" you know little things like holding a pistol in a liquor store? Methinks drones are not quite up to checking passports yet?

I know, you could say you thought he looked like a Canuck!!! }};-D

I'm sure y'all will pardon me for saying you're all a bit odd and some of those comments sound absolutely ridic... er silly to an old soldier.


Any <Kill them all let the autopsy sort them out> mouse
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<Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe after g-d the creator and EDUCATING WOMEN.>

Educating women and giving them the cultural power to control their fertility and the economic power to afford the means of control.

Wendy
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OT - Drones.

What's with all the whining about killing Americans, are these guys enemy combatants? If so and they are killing Americans why would they have some sort of special exemptions?


At last! Proof that the drones and Hellfire missiles are working!

I'd begun to fret that the US$68,000 cost of an anti-tank missile like the AGM-114 Hellfire was disproportionate to the effect on the terrorists who mostly ride motorcycles and ride in what we here in the states would call mini-economy cars.

I mean, as a fiscally responsible citizen I'd like to see the enemy vehicle destroyed cost at least as much as the weapon used to destroy it.

I'm glad to read that the terrorists have resorted to their legion of useful idiots via their propaganda arm. This means that the drone fired Hellfire missiles are having the desired effect i.e. reducing the terrorist population (traitor Americans included). HURRAH!

Maybe we should all write our Congressperson and ask that the name of one of the people killed on 911 be painted on the side of each Hellfire missile.

Perhaps someone on this board should look into buying stock in the companies that make the drones, drone parts Hellfires and Hellfire components.
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How exactly does one know if a member of the Taliban or al- Qaeda is civilian or military?

Ah Ha! You've pointed out the essence of difference between old school warfare (uniforms & marching) and new school warfare (clandestine bomb factories & terrorism). The old days of capturing the enemy's capitol to win the war are waning.

The United States of America has the hands down best military in the whole wide world, bar none. Therefore the only way to fight them is with Guerrilla warfare or terrorism.

Guerrilla warfare in the Pakistan/Afghanistan region can not be fought best by us lining up shoulder to shoulder and marching towards an enemy hiding and shooting from behind trees.

Hence drones and Hellfire missiles.

The useful idiots among us would require us to send in thousands of troops to kill and be killed arresting suspects so that "due process of law" can be carried out.

Hey useful idiots! "You don't win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other son-of-a-bitch die for his."
-- General George Patton
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At last! Proof that the drones and Hellfire missiles are working!

DD

Oh they have been working fine, the turnover rate at the top of al-Qaeda has been tremendous. Oh it would appear that the leadership brings along the family as many of the "innocent" casualties are the wives and kids.

Historically while political leaders are often considered off limits, military leaders are not protected under those rules. Clearly the definition of military and political has become somewhat cloudy with some leadership filling both rolls in terrorist groups.

Incidentally there is a long tradition of executing combatants who are not in uniform without due process... well OK they may not have been American.

I personally can't imagine why anyone would look at a drone as being anything but a weapon of war. When large numbers of prisoners were taken during the Spanish Civil war and ammo was in short supply for firing squads they would lay them down in lines on the roads and drive over them with a truck.
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At last! Proof that the drones and Hellfire missiles are working!

Oh they have been working fine, the turnover rate at the top of al-Qaeda has been tremendous.


Ayup! And with any luck it will continue to be.
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In your opinion, in the big picture of life, the universe and everything, which of these is the most egregious form of environmental terrorism?

You left out the fraud of global warming - where our planet is being destroyed in order to save it from a non-existent threat.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100196794/...

http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/releases/spanish-wind-...

Breeding Can’t Keep Up
California officials report an average of 67 golden eagles die each year at the Altamont Pass wind farm.

"It would take 167 pairs of local nesting golden eagles to produce enough young to compensate for their mortality rate related to wind energy production,” Doug Bell, manager of East Bay Regional Park District’s wildlife program, told the Los Angeles Times. “We have only 60 pairs."


http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2011/08/01/golde...

See also: http://boards.fool.com/climate-crimes-30534504.aspx and

http://boards.fool.com/number-of-birds-killed-by-wind-farms-...

http://boards.fool.com/wind-turbines-are-eco-friendly-304948...


-=Ajax=-
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You left out the fraud of global warming - where our planet is being destroyed in order to save it from a non-existent threat. - AjaxofTelamon

Fraud of global warming!?! Unfortunately, Mother Nature didn't get that memo. Here are several indicators that our planet is, indeed, growing warmer:

http://climate.nasa.gov/key_indicators/

There are, of course, many, MANY other indicators, such as shrinking glacial ice mass, population shifts in flora and fauna, earlier and earlier snow cover melts, changes in the jet stream pattern (the polar jet stream keeps shifting northward), melting permafrost, etc., etc., etc.

As for bird kills related to wind turbines as some sorta eco-disaster - please stop. You're simply embarrassing yourself:

http://tinyurl.com/a4e9xrr

Window strikes – estimated to kill 97 to 976 million birds/year – Millions of houses and buildings, with their billions of windows, pose a significant threat to birds. Birds see the natural habitat mirrored in the glass and fly directly into the window, causing injury and, in 50% or more of the cases, death.

Communication towers – estimates of bird kills are impossible to make because of the lack of data, but totals could easily be over 5 million birds/year, and possibly as many as 50 million. Towers have proliferated in recent years, with an estimated 5000 new towers erected per year during the 1990s, mainly for the cell phone and digital TV industries. Any tall structure will kill birds by collision, and lighted towers attract birds at night.

High tension line collisions – may kill up to 174 million birds per year. This figure extrapolates from European studies to the millions of miles of aerial wires in North America. There are very few data in North America.

Electrocutions kill tens of thousands of birds per year. This occurs mainly when large birds such as raptors make contact between a live electrical wire and a ground such as a pole. The relatively small number of birds affected belies the significance of this threat, since species such as Golden Eagle are more susceptible. Large predators like eagles have smaller population sizes and lower reproduction rates than songbirds, so removing a few thousand birds from the population will have a much larger impact than removing the same number of, say, Savannah Sparrows. Studies by HawkWatch International revealed an electrocution rate of just under 1 bird per 100 poles per year, or 547 birds at 74,000 poles in Utah in 2001-2002. About 10% of the birds killed were Golden Eagles, 34% Ravens, and another 25%Buteos (Red-tailed, Swainson’s and Ferruginous Hawks).

Cars may kill 60 million birds per year. Of over 8 million lane miles of roads in the US, 6.3 million, or over ¾, are in rural areas where most birds are presumably killed.

Wind turbines may kill 33,000 birds per year, and, as in the case of electrocutions, these birds tend to be large and scarce (e.g. raptors). The recent surge of interest in wind power has heightened concerns about their effect on birds, and has led to at least the discussion of efforts by the wind power industry to design more benign windmills and to choose locations that are less “birdy”.

Pesticides may kill 72 million birds per year or possibly many more. The sub lethal effects of pesticides may also make the birds more susceptible to predators or unable to reproduce, essentially killing them.

Domestic and Feral Cats – may kill 500 million birds per year or more. More information can be found at The American Bird Conservancy. Predators, of course, account for the vast majority of bird deaths each year, and most of this predation is natural. Domestic cats are not natural predators, but kill many birds. It is worth noting that house cats have been blamed for the extinction of two species of small mammals in the southeastern United States, and feral cats continue to be a huge problem where they have been introduced on many oceanic islands.
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Domestic and Feral Cats – may kill 500 million birds per year or more. More information can be found at The American Bird Conservancy. Predators, of course, account for the vast majority of bird deaths each year, and most of this predation is natural. Domestic cats are not natural predators, but kill many birds. It is worth noting that house cats have been blamed for the extinction of two species of small mammals in the southeastern United States, and feral cats continue to be a huge problem where they have been introduced on many oceanic islands. <?I>

Considering the coverage of birds in my back yard that thoroughly cleaned out my dear corn and big buck mix, we don't have enough feral cats.

Cheers
Qazulight
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...house cats have been blamed for the extinction of two species of small mammals in the southeastern United States...

What small mammals have become extinct? Our aggravating cat only seems to drag up squirrels and voles (a type of mole), and there doesn't seem to be any shortage of those species.

We keep expecting her to be eaten by a coyote, since apparently coyotes are pretty quick to gobble up cats.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/Wildlife/2009/1201/outd...

-Hound (who finds cats aggravating but useful in keeping vermin away from the house - and who finds chihuahuas the only domestic animals more aggravating than cats)
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What small mammals have become extinct? Our aggravating cat only seems to drag up squirrels and voles (a type of mole), and there doesn't seem to be any shortage of those species.

We keep expecting her to be eaten by a coyote, since apparently coyotes are pretty quick to gobble up cats.
- notehound

I don't know which species may have been exterminated by cats. I haven't done sufficient research. Suffice it to say, cats are pretty darn good killers...but not as good as coyotes.

In my previous neighborhood, we had lots of rabbits...until coyotes moved in. Each week, when I mowed the lawn, I'd find the scattered remains of rabbits. Within just one year, all the rabbits disappeared. The coyotes then moved on. (This was in a fairly densely populated suburban environment). As a biologist, I find all this interesting.
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lots of rabbits...until coyotes moved in.

The mountainous Griffith Park in Los Angeles where I run and walk and bike the dirt trails and firebreaks has a wonderful running drama of peak cycles of rabbits followed a year later by coyotes.

Two years ago in the 2nd week of lent i went for a run and there were cute little bunnies EVERYWHERE. I estimate I saw over 200 in my one hour trip.

Next year, fewer bunnies.

This year, lots and lots of hungry hungry coyotes.

The deer population is somewhat independent, correlated to bunnies by abundance of grass.

david fb
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The mountainous Griffith Park in Los Angeles where I run and walk and bike the dirt trails and firebreaks has a wonderful running drama of peak cycles of rabbits followed a year later by coyotes.

Two years ago in the 2nd week of lent i went for a run and there were cute little bunnies EVERYWHERE. I estimate I saw over 200 in my one hour trip.

Next year, fewer bunnies.

This year, lots and lots of hungry hungry coyotes.


It's been a few years, but iirc an article I read the rabbits (and hence the coyotes) are on an 11 year cycle.

Coyote population follows the rabbit population up until the rabbit population plummets followed a year later by the coyote population.

Then the whole thing starts all over again.

With the rabbits gone there will be a real danger to people and pets in the area until the coyote population winds down in a year or two.
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Fraud of global warming!?!

http://www.climatedepot.com/
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Window strikes – estimated to kill 97 to 976 million birds/year

To the point where Breeding Can’t Keep Up?


Cars may kill 60 million birds per year.

How many Golden Eagles?


Domestic and Feral Cats – may kill 500 million birds per year or more.

Bald Eagles are killed by cats?


-=Ajax=-
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Thanks for all votes and comments.


Tim,
Historically while political leaders are often considered off limits ...

It’s not difficult to work out why. Although the political leader of the other side may have instigated the war, and be the one guy out of everyone who deserves to be hit, and the most efficient way of ending the war, our politician targeting him also paints a bull’s eye on his own chest. They both prefer to have a large wedge of cannon fodder between each other.


Ajax,
I’m not sure about the man-made aspect of global warming, but for sure the planet has been through many changes, and species adapt or exciting new ones come along. That is part of how life works and how we came into being. To say to nature "let's hold things right here for eternity", meaning with humans in control, isn't going to happen. Life in the big picture hates stasis, you can feel it with people wanting to "get ahead", within the system, or by getting around the system or disrupting the system. And not just within mankind, between species too, what happens if we don't maintain our back yards neatly ...

Agreed that windfarms cause problems for wildlife. But also for humans.

http://www.caithnesswindfarms.co.uk/accidents.pdf
http://www.caithnesswindfarms.co.uk/fullaccidents.pdf

And we all subsidise the industry because it is not economic, yet somehow so so desirable ...
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Tim,
Historically while political leaders are often considered off limits ...

It’s not difficult to work out why. Although the political leader of the other side may have instigated the war, and be the one guy out of everyone who deserves to be hit, and the most efficient way of ending the war, our politician targeting him also paints a bull’s eye on his own chest. They both prefer to have a large wedge of cannon fodder between each other.


MrP

Unfortunately wars tend to take on a life of their own and a change of leadership seldom ends them on their own. See recent history for examples.

Dozens of attempts (both known and claimed but officially unknown) were made to eliminate the leader of Germany’s Third Reich, most by his own military and political people.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_attempts_on_Adolf...

After watching his constant interfering with his generals in military operations with severely negative outcomes the allied leaders decided it would end the war quicker if he was left in power. A British sniper team plan to off him at his resort (Berghof) was cancelled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Foxley

The plan was submitted in November 1944, but was never carried out because controversy remained over whether it was actually a good idea to kill Hitler: he was by then considered to be such a poor strategist that it was believed whoever replaced him would probably do better.
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How exactly does one know if a member of the Taliban or al- Qaeda is civilian or military?

Er, Police kill people every day without "due process of law" you know little things like holding a pistol in a liquor store? Methinks drones are not quite up to checking passports yet?


Precisely, Tim!

Watching the legislature in action gives me progressively less respect for "due process" with each passing day.

The due and undue process of cybercrime and nuclear delivery technology make the whole thing a very bad joke.

jz
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I'm sure y'all will pardon me for saying you're all a bit odd and some of those comments sound absolutely ridic... er silly to an old soldier.

Tim, keep in mind that US laws were written by people that some potty old duffer in England would have loved to order a drone strike on.

Steve
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Tim, keep in mind that US laws were written by people that some potty old duffer in England would have loved to order a drone strike on.

Steve



Interesting but historically incorrect. The Brit politicians of the day were very careful to follow the "no kill" on political leaders rules. They wouldn't even allow Napoleon to be terminated though a few Royalist French officers were not so sensitive and wanting no more to do with guarding him in his new island abode eventually poisoned him.

The "raid" in 1814 to send a message about the burning and plundering of York (now Toronto) was just that and the troops were careful to burn only government property. The raid was also successful beyond expectations by the British commanders simply because the US troops often abandoned their fortifications at the mere sight or report of the enemy approaching.

Oh and Dolly didn't save the paintings, she saved her jewellery, the servants saved the paintings. Her husband was certainly one of the "Hawks" responsible for starting the war of 1812 but didn't hang around long enough to test the "no kill" rule.


Any <**** censored ****> mouse
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The Brit politicians of the day were very careful to follow the "no kill" on political leaders rules.

In spite of the delicacies of the time, he probably wanted to.

The Brits were not so sensitive when it came to Charles I, tho he did have a trial of sorts.

Steve
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The Brits were not so sensitive when it came to Charles I, tho he did have a trial of sorts.

Steve



Ah but that was a bunch of religious nutters, those fellows can justify anything.

It is also important to separate the monarchy from "political leaders", Charles was a bitter enemy of parliament. In fact he constantly prorogued parliament unless he needed money from them.


Tim


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_England
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Unsurprising this argument about feral cats is

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&obj...

...but the flip side is that the better hunters also kill rats

...which are a major threat to the native birds.

?
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Unsurprising this argument about feral cats is

...

...but the flip side is that the better hunters also kill rats



Indeed, lest we forget while humans domesticated dogs, Cats were responsible for domesticating humans or at least allowed them to settle down as farmers instead of continuing the hunter gather thingy that was high risk and often hungry.

The earliest farmers who attempted to store food lost it all to rats, mice, birds and a host of others drawn to the piles of food. That is until the forest cats notice the target rich environment and moved in to establish a symbiotic relationship.


Tim
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Ah but that was a bunch of religious nutters, those fellows can justify anything.

'course, some of those nutters had previously decamped to North America to impose their idea of religion, vs the King's imposed religion. By some accounts, Cromwell was relatively tolerant of other Protestant denominations, but virulently anti-Catholic.

See US Constitution, 1st Amendment, ban on government imposed religion.

It is also important to separate the monarchy from "political leaders",

For that matter, the US' "political leaders" of 1776 were not members of any government recognized by the Crown, but rather the heads of a traitorous terrorist rabble raising arms against their soverign. I doubt George III would have worried about any "do not kill" courtesies, and would have eagerly flattened the entire block in downtown Philadelphia to take out the likes of Franklin, Jefferson and Adams, if he had had the means.

The USians fought dirty too. Terrorized civilian royalists. Used guerilla tactics like hiding behind trees and walls and, worst of all, made a particular objective of picking off the Brit officers.

Francis Marion (c. 1732 – February 27, 1795[1]) was a military officer who served in the American Revolutionary War. Acting with Continental Army and South Carolina militia commissions, he was a persistent adversary of the British in their occupation of South Carolina in 1780 and 1781, even after the Continental Army was driven out of the state in the Battle of Camden.

Due to his irregular methods of warfare, he is considered one of the fathers of modern guerrilla warfare, and is credited in the lineage of the United States Army Rangers. He is known as the Swamp Fox.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion

Steve
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Methinks this fellow was a bit ahead of Marion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers'_Rangers
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I am sure that you are already aware that the way to reduce the birthrate is (1) to educate women and provide economic opportunity and (2) provide healthcare so that kids grow up and a woman does not have to have 6 children in order to see a couple of them reach adulthood.
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In your opinion, in the big picture of life, the universe and everything, which of these is the most egregious form of environmental terrorism?

Eating Organic non-GMO only produce and proselytizing this approach to everybody you know. Bonus points for trying to convince people to be self-sufficient farmers.

Seriously.

This sh1t is so inefficient we would run out of Earth's surface area before feeding 30% of the world's population.
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Eating Organic non-GMO only produce and proselytizing this approach to everybody you know. Bonus points for trying to convince people to be self-sufficient farmers.


stenlis

Chuckle, my youngest spawn is currently on this kick with added "gluten" is instantly fatal to the human race. I made the mistake of picking up a jug of (lethal?) milk that was significantly cheaper but didn't mention "Organic" while there over Christmas. She very carefully ensured that only the adults (preferably the grandparents) could drink that milk.

Speaking of grocery shopping, she orders her groceries on line these days and hubby picks them up at the store near the Metro when he picks her up. Methinks this would play hell with all the careful shelf placements?


Any <it is hard to get good help with grocery shopping these days> mouse
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MrPlunger

I was impressed by a psychiatrist for the wealthy when he said, "At least they know that lack of money is not their problem."

brucedoe
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