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Author: Hatescheapasses Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 308369  
Subject: Deleted Message Date: 2/23/2011 3:15 PM
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Yes it's ok to starve your child so you can date
NO it's not ok and this type of thinking is extremely selfish

Click here to see results so far.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301110 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 3:37 PM
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This is a silly poll. Who is going to answer yes? Even if they thought "yes," which no one in their right mind would, you have phrased the questions in such a way and with such immfalamtory language as to force the issue.

I hate push polls.

Ignore thread now...

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301111 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 3:40 PM
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You forgot the pants option.

LWW

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301120 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 4:04 PM
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immfalamtory


i am going to use this word whenever possible


peace & as soon as I figure out how to pronounce it
t

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301124 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 4:27 PM
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Children are one of the great assets they may come out of a marriage.

We divide up the real and personal property assets when qa divorce occurs, then award custody of the children to only one parent, giving the 50% of the real and personal property and 100% of the privilege of raising the children.

Then we add a generous portion of the income of the income of the non custodial parent.


So one parent typically gets 50% of the real and personal property

+ 100% of the value of raising the children

+ A generous slice of the income of the other spouse.


This is called "an equitable division of property."


Not at all surprisingly, this arrangement happens to be what women get in most cases.



This is the feminist idea of equality, except that feminists can always imagine additional cherries that should go on top to make them happy.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301125 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 4:40 PM
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I think it is pretty obvious that this is "mamapug" and she is very angry.

I think she found that he was posting here, and is just posting in response to him.

Ishtar

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301127 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 4:49 PM
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We divide up the real and personal property assets when qa divorce occurs, then award custody of the children to only one parent, giving the 50% of the real and personal property and 100% of the privilege of raising the children.

They were never married, SP.

Ishtar

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Author: LaraAmber Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301129 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 5:16 PM
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SP,

You forgot "100% of the expenses for raising the child" in your division. But then you always do, as though the custodial parent was awarded that "generous slice" of the money just for kicks.

I've never yet met a single parent who's child support income even came close to 50% of the costs of raising the child.

Lara Amber

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301130 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 5:22 PM
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..a certain father on here is constantly crying about having to pay child support and In the same breath complain about how courting is expensive...what a selfish mofo

He hasn't made a post on these boards since last August. Not exactly on here constantly.

LWW

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301131 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 5:24 PM
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<<immfalamtory


i am going to use this word whenever possible


peace & as soon as I figure out how to pronounce it
t >>



Heh, heh!


We'll just add that to the Yogi Berra Unbridged Dictionery of the English Language.....



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301132 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 5:30 PM
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<<SP,

You forgot "100% of the expenses for raising the child" in your division. But then you always do, as though the custodial parent was awarded that "generous slice" of the money just for kicks.

I've never yet met a single parent who's child support income even came close to 50% of the costs of raising the child.

Lara Amber >>



The person with the privilege of raising the child should foot the costs of doing so, along with the privileges.

Children are the priceless fruit that may come from a marriage or relationship. Awarding the winner custody and then taking substantial income from the loser is just piling on, and is not just in my opinion.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: LaraAmber Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301133 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 5:54 PM
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SP,

If children are the priceless fruit:

1. The non-custodial parent would be happy to give their income to the custodial parent to make sure their priceless fruit had the best in life. In fact they would write larger checks then the court ordered and it wouldn't need to come out of paychecks and be handled by the payroll company and court system, because every non-custodial parent would happily and voluntarily pay. They would also gladly call the custodial parent and say "hey, can I take Timmy to his next doctor appointment? Do you need any help paying for summer camp?"

2. It's hard to be a "winner" when the other parent doesn't want to be a custodial parent, they want to pretend they are 22 again and "make up for lost time".

Not only is it just in your opinion, your opinion isn't based on reality. Considering the number of relationships where I've seen the custodial parent BEG the non-custodial parent to actually spend some freaking time with their kid. I saw this as a child (friend of the kid caught in the middle) and as an adult (friend of the divorced parent).

Screw the "privilege of raising a child" it's about the RESPONSIBILITY of being a parent.

Lara Amber

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Author: DrBooa Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301134 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 6:17 PM
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I suddenly remembered why I am not on Facebook.


--Booa

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Author: NoIDAtAll Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301145 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/23/2011 9:27 PM
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Screw the "privilege of raising a child" it's about the RESPONSIBILITY of being a parent.

That's the way it should be, but often not the way it is. I wanted custody of my only daughter, but it wasn't going to happen. I had to work to support my daughter, as best as I could, while her mother let her run unsupervised. The family court judge pretty much decided, "She's a 'fit' parent. She's not working, he is. I'm going to award custody of the child that I didn't bring into the world and whom and whose mother and father I barely know to the mother." That's about as involved as the court system gets, other than to advise me that I had better not miss a child support payment, whether or not my daughters mother complied with allowing me visitation every other weekend and every other holiday. My wife had men running through the house like a revolving door in a department store. My daughter did well in the private school she attended when her mother and I were married. In high school, following the divorce, she ran with a pretty disfunctional crowd, got into illicit hard narcotics, had 3 children by 3 different men, dropped out of high school w/o a diploma, contracted Hepatitis C from a father of one of her children who died from AIDS. The drug addiction got so bad that her children were taken from her, thankfully. Losing her children shocked her into a degree of responsibility, thankfully. She no longer communicates with her mother, not my doing - I know her mom loves her, but she can be pretty hard and cold, when she sets her mind to it, and nobody will prove successful in changing a focus she chooses.

I fully agree, "Screw the "privilege of raising a child" it's about the RESPONSIBILITY of being a parent." But, one doesn't always get to exercise that responsibility. The "family court system" leaves a lot to be desired. My former wife and I get along much better these days - I just wish she would have allowed that much sooner. The child support payments didn't bother me. Her using our daughter to get to me and lack of constructive supervision did.

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Author: LaraAmber Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301161 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/24/2011 9:43 AM
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NoIDAtAll,

It sounds like you're one of the good guys. I know some great dads (and moms) who are completely about what's best for the kid. They arrange their work schedules to trade off childcare duties, they talk constantly, they can both attend family events and be friendly. I don't know if Denver metro area courts are particularly good, or if the court system in general is getting better at recognizing both parents bring more then money to the table.

I just wish I didn't still see some really crappy "parents" who try to divorce the kids as well as the former spouse.

Lara Amber

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301162 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/24/2011 10:13 AM
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In fact they would write larger checks then the court ordered and it wouldn't need to come out of paychecks and be handled by the payroll company and court system, because every non-custodial parent would happily and voluntarily pay.

LareAmber, I'd just like to point out that in TX, at least, you are required to pay child support through payroll deduction if the child custody agreement is put into place by the courts. It's actually a protection for both parents in regards to child support. It proves that the required amount has been paid. If the non-custodial parent wishes to pay for additional activities, they can, but anything they pay outside of the order is considered a "gift" and doesn't count towards the required child support amount.

We had a friend who had a baby with his girlfriend a couple of years ago. They lived together for a time after the baby was born. While they lived together, they were a family. Costs were shared, including the costs of raising their child. However, about 6 months after they split up, she went to the AGs office and demanded child support (he had been giving her money for their child, she didn't think the amount was enough). The AG saw that there was no record of how much the dad had paid, and ordered retro support back to the day the child was born. Now he's paying both current and back support.

LWW

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Author: NoIDAtAll Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301163 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/24/2011 10:27 AM
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I just wish I didn't still see some really crappy "parents" who try to divorce the kids as well as the former spouse.


Yes, but you can't be your brother's keeper forever. I stayed awake many nights hoping and praying that I wouldn't have to bury my daughter - It was pretty bad. I didn't have time to think about somebody else' children - I had my own plate pretty full.

One day my daughter approached me in the office where I work and asked for $40. I was pretty sure that she wanted to buy drugs with it, as she didn't furnish a reasonable explanation for needing it. I told her I didn't have it. She cursed me. I slapped her face. She charged at me swinging her fists. I grabbed her wrists, swept her feet from under her and gently laid her on the floor. She went into a panic attack and my coworkers furnished her with a brown paper bag to breath into to help relieve that experience. My employer suggested that I leave and meet with him at a local tavern later. She went to the nearby local police station and asked to press charges against me for battery. The police called the tavern that I went to meet my employer and asked the owner, a former policeman, his opinion. The police on duty advised my daughter that they would file the matter and sent her on her way. She went to the tavern, embraced me and cried on my shoulder. I assured her that it would be OK. I haven't experienced a similar instance since and I really enjoy cooking with her when she comes to visit - times I live for. I talked with her fiance a couple of days ago about going fishing and kayaking with me this Spring - He seemed up for it, and I look forward to it: http://dnr.state.il.us/lands/landmgt/parks/r4/coffeen.htm

Bob

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Author: Patzer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301164 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/24/2011 11:29 AM
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So one parent typically gets 50% of the real and personal property

+ 100% of the value of raising the children

+ A generous slice of the income of the other spouse.


This is called "an equitable division of property."



SP, consider this statement: "Stocks rise an average of 11% per year."

Now, the trick question: What does that statement about stocks have in common with your statement about divorce? Think about it a bit.

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.
.
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.
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Answer: The general statement that stocks go up 11% per year is as relevant to investing as your characterization of divorce is to what goes on in divorce negotiations and divorce courts. IOW, it could be true for some people; but the variations in results make it untrue for many, perhaps most, people's actual experience.

I went through a painful 2 year divorce process ending in 2004. I had to give up some assets. I had to pay alimony. I got custody. I didn't get child support. I was able to live and support my daughter on what I got to keep. It really didn't look much like your description at all. In fact, the alimony I pay is less than what my ex was wasting every month when we were together.

My observation is that the results of going to divorce court, like investing results, can be improved by education about how the process works; careful attention to details; a healthy dose of realism instead of wishful thinking; and a bit of luck in getting a favorable situation to work with.

A "favorable situation to work with" might mean that the two parties can rationally discuss things and plan for the best results for the children. (Didn't happen in my case, but I know a couple that did things that way.) It could mean that the facts of the situation are so simple that there's no controversy. (Such as having no assets, no kids, and no fight.) It could mean that your soon to be ex spouse goes off into fantasy land on his/her demands and as a result the judge gives you more than you could have negotiated if if the stbx were reasonable.

I think that the man going off into fantasy land and being unrealistic about what he can expect or negotiate is the common case for the scenario you describe. If he won't negotiate, the court will see him as unreasonable and give her more than she would get if he were willing to work toward something equitable. Because he is in fantasy land, he doesn't realize that his own conduct made things worse than they had to be. Yeah, divorce pretty much sucks all around; but like many bad situations, it can easily be made worse through mismanagement.

Patzer

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301165 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/24/2011 1:54 PM
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A "favorable situation to work with" might mean that the two parties can rationally discuss things and plan for the best results for the children. (Didn't happen in my case, but I know a couple that did things that way.) It could mean that the facts of the situation are so simple that there's no controversy. (Such as having no assets, no kids, and no fight.)

In some cases, just having one parent leave is not bad. I know of two divorces where the wife received the family car as the divorce settlement, left the state and hasn't contacted the kids since the divorce.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301169 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/24/2011 5:21 PM
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<<she went to the AGs office and demanded child support (he had been giving her money for their child, she didn't think the amount was enough). The AG saw that there was no record of how much the dad had paid, and ordered retro support back to the day the child was born. Now he's paying both current and back support.

LWW >>



Of course having public authorities go after private parties in civil cases is another part of the Child Support racket.

You can't even really dignify such abuse by calling it "milking," since a dairyman who fails to milk his cow can't get a court order directing the cow to produce milk when it wasn't being collected.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: flowerschild Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301172 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/24/2011 8:38 PM
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Heh, heh!

We'll just add that to the Yogi Berra Unbridged
[sic] Dictionery [sic] of the English Language.....

Seattle Pioneer



Seriously?
That was a joke, right?

Here's another quote from Yogi Berra: "I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did."

(from http://www.yogiberra.com/yogi-isms.html)

flowerschild

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Author: flowerschild Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301173 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/24/2011 8:44 PM
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By "That was a joke, right?" I should have been clearer:

Those misspellings were a joke, right? Kind of like puns?


flowerschild

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Author: flowerschild Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301174 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/24/2011 9:02 PM
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Of course having public authorities go after private parties in civil cases is another part of the Child Support racket.

You can't even really dignify such abuse by calling it "milking," since a dairyman who fails to milk his cow can't get a court order directing the cow to produce milk when it wasn't being collected.

Seattle Pioneer



But I thought "[c]hildren are the priceless fruit that may come from a marriage or relationship," according to your post here:
http://boards.fool.com/ltltsp-you-forgot-quot100-of-the-expe...

So if the children are born of private parties, they are more like cow's milk than priceless fruit?

The financial obligation of both parents to raise a child exists, whether custody is full or not. If you disagree with the formula your state comes up with to assess the child support obligation of both parties, take that argument to your local legislature.

If they don't listen to a single man's argument regarding how he sees the appropriate obligations of parents in various economic circumstances....tough.


flowerschild

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301175 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/25/2011 2:26 AM
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<<The financial obligation of both parents to raise a child exists, whether custody is full or not. If you disagree with the formula your state comes up with to assess the child support obligation of both parties, take that argument to your local legislature.>>



The human population of the world managed without such a concept throughout human history until the past twenty years or so.

That usually resulted in marriages that lasted and parental commitment to supporting children that was commonly limited mostly by death.

The idea of "till death do us part" was commonly no joke.

Liberal social theories have trivialized marriage. And frankly men must be prepared to give up their children and home at pretty much any time with little or no notice if a woman wished to kick him out of his home.

Men must cultivate shallow relationships with their spouse and children if they want to stay out of jail.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301176 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/25/2011 9:25 AM
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The human population of the world managed without such a concept throughout human history until the past twenty years or so.

More like the past 40 years or so. My dad was ordered to pay child support when my parents divorced in 1969. He didn't, by the way.

LWW

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Author: LaraAmber Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301177 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/25/2011 10:21 AM
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The human population of the world managed without such a concept throughout human history until the past twenty years or so.

That usually resulted in marriages that lasted and parental commitment to supporting children that was commonly limited mostly by death.

The idea of "till death do us part" was commonly no joke.

Liberal social theories have trivialized marriage. And frankly men must be prepared to give up their children and home at pretty much any time with little or no notice if a woman wished to kick him out of his home.

Men must cultivate shallow relationships with their spouse and children if they want to stay out of jail.


SP did you take any history classes?

Let's take the rose-colored glasses off for a second and show what actually happened in the past.

1. Women were PROPERTY. They didn't have the right or the ability to leave a bad marriage. They couldn't own their own businesses, take their possessions with them, etc. So their choices were: live with husband, live with father, or live with relatives. So instead of saying "well they took marriage seriously back then" it should be "marriage was a virtually loveless contract between vastly unequal parties".
2. Women who had children out of wedlock weren't given child support. They lost their jobs (maids, shop girls, etc), sent to seclusion to then give up the baby (if wealthy), or had a dangerous abortion/committed suicide. The guy faced no consequences.
3. Work houses and orphanages. We don't have those any more. Cities used to be littered with them. Kids were raised in poverty and virtual slavery. They ran wild on the streets as criminals. Part of the whole reason we started all these social programs to help the poor was to make the streets safer.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "shallow relationships". I don't know of any man who has gone to jail because he doesn't see his kids anymore. Refusing to pay court ordered child support can have consequences, but I've yet to see anyone punished for not being pleasant.

Oh, and "liberal social theories" have STRENGTHENED marriage. Modern theories demand that marriage be about love, between equals, and that each person be treated with respect, not just the man.

Lara Amber

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301178 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/25/2011 10:31 AM
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That usually resulted in marriages that lasted and parental commitment to supporting children that was commonly limited mostly by death.<?i>

BS.

It resulted in a society where people would remain married despite clear physical and mental abuse, or even abandonment.

It was not uncommon for a man to "set aside" his wife and publicly carry on with a mistress.

Or simply walk out on the wife and kids never to be seen again.

For example, my ex-fiancee's grandfather and grandmother remained married even though they had not lived together in over 25 years. Granddad had enough money for flying planes to be his favorite hobby. Meanwhile, Grandma had to sell off family property in order support kids and later her grandson.

Despite what you think, it was not uncommon for men to walk away and not ever send a dime for their children or ever see them again. And, I also know a man whose wife walked out, never to be seen again. He got full custody of his kids with her and also her kid from a previous relationship (which I've told you multiple times before).

The child support "racket" was put in place to ensure these parents helped support the children they helped create. See, if the parents are supporting the kids, they kids/remaining parent are less likely to end up on welfare or living off of some kind of charity, which I would think you would applaud.

It was not an idyllic world before child support.

Ishtar


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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301179 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/25/2011 10:53 AM
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Ish and Lara - you aren't new here,
and yet you are engaging with SP about marriage/divorce/custody?


peace & you know better
t

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301180 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/25/2011 11:12 AM
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<<3. Work houses and orphanages. We don't have those any more. Cities used to be littered with them. >>


The work houses have been closed? Things were far better in the time of Dickens:


'Are there no prisons?"

'Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
'And the Union workhouses.' demanded Scrooge. 'Are they still in operation?'


'Both very busy, sir.'

'Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. 'I'm very glad to hear it.'





Seattle Pioneer

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301181 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/25/2011 11:14 AM
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It was not an idyllic world before child support.

You are only half right. It was idyllic for a man to which SP is a member of this special club.

PSU

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Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301182 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/25/2011 4:29 PM
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Oh, and "liberal social theories" have STRENGTHENED marriage. Modern theories demand that marriage be about love, between equals, and that each person be treated with respect, not just the man.

Massachusetts, generally considered one of the most liberal states in the country, has the lowest divorce rate.

And I know of plenty of cases where the guy walked out, and didn't care about sending child support, no matter how low it was set. Didn't care about seeing his kid ever again, either. And you can't stop visitation just because the guy isn't paying support.

Nancy
I've also known some really fantastic kids to come out of these circumstances, too.

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Author: MissEdithKeeler Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301183 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/25/2011 4:43 PM
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1. Women were PROPERTY. They didn't have the right or the ability to leave a bad marriage. They couldn't own their own businesses, take their possessions with them, etc. So their choices were: live with husband, live with father, or live with relatives. So instead of saying "well they took marriage seriously back then" it should be "marriage was a virtually loveless contract between vastly unequal parties".
2. Women who had children out of wedlock weren't given child support. They lost their jobs (maids, shop girls, etc), sent to seclusion to then give up the baby (if wealthy), or had a dangerous abortion/committed suicide. The guy faced no consequences.
3. Work houses and orphanages. We don't have those any more. Cities used to be littered with them. Kids were raised in poverty and virtual slavery. They ran wild on the streets as criminals. Part of the whole reason we started all these social programs to help the poor was to make the streets safer.



I think SP refers to this era as "the good old days."

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301184 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 8:56 AM
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happy Fooleversary, PSU!

LWW

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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 9:14 AM
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<<1. Women were PROPERTY. They didn't have the right or the ability to leave a bad marriage. They couldn't own their own businesses, take their possessions with them, etc. So their choices were: live with husband, live with father, or live with relatives. So instead of saying "well they took marriage seriously back then" it should be "marriage was a virtually loveless contract between vastly unequal parties".
2. Women who had children out of wedlock weren't given child support. They lost their jobs (maids, shop girls, etc), sent to seclusion to then give up the baby (if wealthy), or had a dangerous abortion/committed suicide. >>



Despite the liberation of women, the bottom line is that women wish to pick the pockets of men. Government will gladly do that for women upon request.


<<I think SP refers to this era as "the good old days." >>



This is the system the "modern woman" created and dotes upon.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: TheEvilDrP Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301186 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 9:57 AM
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Despite the liberation of women, the bottom line is that women wish to pick the pockets of men. Government will gladly do that for women upon request.


Because of the liberation of women, women are now free to leave abusive marriages before they are killed.

Because the government ensures that both parents are financially responsible for the children they helped create, the CUSTODIAL PARENT is able to support the children. Being a woman is NOT a guarantee that you will retain custody of the children in question. Better it would be that both parents work together to co-parent and put the child's needs first.

Minxie

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301187 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 10:51 AM
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<<Because of the liberation of women, women are now free to leave abusive marriages before they are killed.>>



If that were the standard, it would have merit.


But divorce can be attained at any time for any reason or no reason at all ----by a PARENT.

The children, of course, are the most common victims. But they aren't consulted on their preferences in having their home ripped up. Neither is the other spouse.





Seattle Pioneer

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Author: NoIDAtAll Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301188 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 11:10 AM
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The children, of course, are the most common victims. But they aren't consulted on their preferences in having their home ripped up. Neither is the other spouse.

Pretty good points.

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301189 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 11:16 AM
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Despite the liberation of women, the bottom line is that women wish to pick the pockets of men. Government will gladly do that for women upon request.


Most women prefer that men accept their responsibility and take on half of the parenting duties and expenses.

No one gets rich from child support payments.

Now, an argument could be made that alimony is picking a man's pocket, but that's rarely awarded these days and when it is, there is usually a time limit on it.

Ishtar

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301190 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 12:16 PM
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Now, an argument could be made that alimony is picking a man's pocket, but that's rarely awarded these days and when it is, there is usually a time limit on it.

Alimony can be awarded to the lower income spouse, and that isn't always the woman.

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Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301191 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 12:21 PM
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Alimony can be awarded to the lower income spouse, and that isn't always the woman.

My niece paid alimony to her husband for two years. The assumption was that by the end of that time he might be earning a living. There were no children involved, and she was the only one earning, so she thought that was perfectly fair.

Nancy

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301192 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 12:32 PM
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The children, of course, are the most common victims. But they aren't consulted on their preferences in having their home ripped up. Neither is the other spouse.

The children are not necessarily better off in "families" that stayed together for the children. The studies of children from "bad" marriages (and not abusive/dangerous households) doesn't show that the parents staying together was a resounding success. Most of the children wished their parents had divorced rather than been raised in a very stressful home.

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301193 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 1:30 PM
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Alimony can be awarded to the lower income spouse, and that isn't always the woman.

Very true.

If my ex and I had been together longer, he would have been able to get alimony.

Ishtar

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301194 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 9:07 PM
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<<
The children are not necessarily better off in "families" that stayed together for the children. The studies of children from "bad" marriages (and not abusive/dangerous households) doesn't show that the parents staying together was a resounding success. Most of the children wished their parents had divorced rather than been raised in a very stressful home.>>



Nice effort to salve the guilty conscience of those promoting the divorce culture.


But heck, how about this? When minor children are present, grant a divorce if a court decides that divorce "is in the best interest of the children."


Those who are a part of the divorce culture would not approve of that limitation on their ability to get a divorce for any reason or no reason at all.

Does that appeal to you?




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Primmm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301195 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/26/2011 10:00 PM
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But heck, how about this? When minor children are present, grant a divorce if a court decides that divorce "is in the best interest of the children."


Those who are a part of the divorce culture would not approve of that limitation on their ability to get a divorce for any reason or no reason at all.

Does that appeal to you?


Much as it pains me to agree with you, as a divorced parent I would love to bring back "at fault" divorces. As a financially, physically and emotionally abused spouse, I would have got a whole lot more out of my divorce settlement for myself and my children if I'd been allowed to bring up these points in court. But here at least (not sure about the US) that isn't allowed.

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301196 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 7:15 AM
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And you can't stop visitation just because the guy isn't paying support.

and I don't think that you should.
Visitation and support are probably the two most hotly contested issues in a divorce, but i do not think they should be linked.
They are 2 different things.

There are myriad reasons (not saying they are all valid) that child support does not get paid, but the children should not be held hostage or deprived of the other parent for those payments either. The parental relationships on both sides should be encouraged.


peace & i tried to stay out of this
t

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Author: TheEvilDrP Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301197 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 8:19 AM
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There are myriad reasons (not saying they are all valid) that child support does not get paid, but the children should not be held hostage or deprived of the other parent for those payments either. The parental relationships on both sides should be encouraged.


Bears repeating.

Minxie

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301198 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 11:17 AM
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<<There are myriad reasons (not saying they are all valid) that child support does not get paid, but the children should not be held hostage or deprived of the other parent for those payments either. The parental relationships on both sides should be encouraged.


Bears repeating.

Minxie >>



Men who are denied access to their children are about as common as mothers who don't get paid child support, and rather commonly their is a relationship between the two.

While mothers can call upon the state to coerce the father to pay child support, a father victim of the various methods women use to deny visitation cannot.

So mom gains money from state coercion of fathers and often can deny visitation to fathers without consequences.


The child support racket is a marvelous system.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: joelcorley Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301199 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 11:28 AM
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vkg,

You wrote, The children are not necessarily better off in "families" that stayed together for the children. The studies of children from "bad" marriages (and not abusive/dangerous households) doesn't show that the parents staying together was a resounding success. Most of the children wished their parents had divorced rather than been raised in a very stressful home.

My kids certainly thought my XSO and I should have separated and divorced sooner. They're both in their mid-20's now, so I don't think they're saying that just out of bitterness. I'm also willing to admit it was a mistake in our case.

But it might not be in every case - I think you have to take into account the dynamics within the family before making that decision. And making the right decision while you're living it can be very difficult.

- Joel

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301200 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 11:42 AM
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the thing is SP- we actually are agreeing on the point that one parent should not with hold children from the other -
and i am doing my best to not use anecdotes here.

OCD:While custodial parents can call upon the state to coerce the non custodial parent to pay child support, a non custodial parent victim of the various methods other parents use to deny visitation cannot.

not true

If one parent is being denied visitation at a whim, that parent can enlist local law enforcement and show up with a cop to pick up the kids on the designated visitation days.
Ugly- you bet.
Effective - yes.


peace & methods
t

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Author: joelcorley Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301201 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 11:49 AM
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Windowseat,

You wrote, My niece paid alimony to her husband for two years. The assumption was that by the end of that time he might be earning a living. There were no children involved, and she was the only one earning, so she thought that was perfectly fair.

I still believe alimony laws still aren't very fair. Would it have been fair for your niece to have paid alimony if she were divorcing her husband largely because he was a spendthrift that wasted her income and rarely contributed anything meaningful to the family unit? What if she had warned him to get work or go to college so he'd be employable, but he'd kept procrastinating?

Unfortunately, most state alimony laws don't make distinctions like this. Also most people don't make their divorce decisions based on any time limits placed on alimony. I think that's why a number of divorced [wo]men are bitter about having to pay alimony. They didn't know they were going to having get stuck supporting their lazy ex for years longer - if they had, they would have probably gotten divorced sooner.

In Texas it is really difficult to get alimony. They don't even call it that here. Instead you have to petition the court for "Temporary Spousal Support" as part of or in response to the divorce petition. Generally you have to show you lack an education and/or are generally unemployable, lacking any recent employment experience. Spousal support is often terminated when the divorce is finalized and it cannot exceed $2,500/month in any case. And yes ... either spouse can file for support.

- Joel

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Author: TheEvilDrP Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301202 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 11:53 AM
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Men who are denied access to their children are about as common as mothers who don't get paid child support, and rather commonly their is a relationship between the two.

While mothers can call upon the state to coerce the father to pay child support, a father victim of the various methods women use to deny visitation cannot.

So mom gains money from state coercion of fathers and often can deny visitation to fathers without consequences.


WRONG!!!!! NON-CUSTODIAL PARENTS can request local law enforcement be present when they pick up their children. Additionally, they can pursue the matter in court if the CUSTODIAL PARENT continues to interfere. That is the job of the court; to adjudicate between two dissenting parties.

Would it be nice if everyone got along and co-parented their children like adults? Sure, but life happens and this is one of the ways developed to try to ensure the children suffer as little as possible. Life's not all sunshine and peaches, you know.

It's not restricted to visitation, either; there is such a thing called Parental Alienation Syndrome in which one parent deliberately tries to turn the kids against the other. Custodial parents can LOSE CUSTODY of their children for either of those offenses.

Minxie

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Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301203 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 12:41 PM
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I still believe alimony laws still aren't very fair. Would it have been fair for your niece to have paid alimony if she were divorcing her husband largely because he was a spendthrift that wasted her income and rarely contributed anything meaningful to the family unit? What if she had warned him to get work or go to college so he'd be employable, but he'd kept procrastinating?

Joel, I think on any message board it's extremely difficult to explain an entire family dynamic, but I will add that my former nephew-in-law had a massive, overwhelming struggle with depression, to the point where he found it difficult to get up in the morning. But yes, despite his not working, and not contributing, and not bringing in any income, she still felt it was fair for her to pay alimony for a couple of years while he made another attempt to pull things together. She went into court planning to pay. It was not something the court imposed on her.

Nancy

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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 12:46 PM
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WRONG!!!!! NON-CUSTODIAL PARENTS can request local law enforcement be present when they pick up their children. Additionally, they can pursue the matter in court if the CUSTODIAL PARENT continues to interfere. That is the job of the court; to adjudicate between two dissenting parties.

You know, I thin you and tconi are wasting your time trying to tell sp that failing to pay child support leads to lack of visitation. He's had his mind made up for years that women in a marriage are evil, scheming harridans whose entire purpose is to rob sweet, innocent, nice guys, and there is nothing that you can say that will ever change his mind. You can point out that nasty attitudes happen on both sides, you can offer anecdata and research studies, and he will still insist, to the bitter end, that everything that goes wrong in a marriage is because of the horrible wives, and men, in every single case, always get the bad end of the stick.

You might as well stop wasting your time and energy.

Nancy

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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 12:48 PM
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You know, I thin you and tconi are wasting your time trying to tell sp that failing to pay child support leads to lack of visitation. He's had his mind made up for years that women in a marriage are evil, scheming harridans whose entire purpose is to rob sweet, innocent, nice guys, and there is nothing that you can say that will ever change his mind. You can point out that nasty attitudes happen on both sides, you can offer anecdata and research studies, and he will still insist, to the bitter end, that everything that goes wrong in a marriage is because of the horrible wives, and men, in every single case, always get the bad end of the stick.

You might as well stop wasting your time and energy.


I ever have hope that he might open his mind a teeny fraction to the truth if it's repeated enough. ;-)

Minxie

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301206 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 2:15 PM
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-- I thin you and tconi are wasting your time trying to tell sp that failing to pay child support leads to lack of visitation --
This is NOT at all what I am saying.
I do not think that visitation should be linked to support.
period.
I think visitation is a completely separate issue and should also be open and available as is appropriate.
But you are correct that I know better. I tried to stay off this thread and failed.

peace & getting sucked in.
t

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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 2:20 PM
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You know, I thin you and tconi are wasting your time trying to tell sp that failing to pay child support leads to lack of visitation.

Oh, also this is not what I am saying either. Missed that on the first go-round; thanks, tconi, for pointing it out.

Like tconi said, visitation and child support are two COMPLETELY SEPARATE matters. You don't get to deny visitation because a parent is behind on their child support and you don't get to withhold child support because they're jacking around with your visitation.

What you do get to do is act like adults. Failing that, use the court system as it was designed for the good of the CHILDREN involved.

Minxie

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Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301208 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 2:30 PM
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This is NOT at all what I am saying.

I know, and I muffed it. But I still think you're wasting your time!

Nancy
trying to exit thread.

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Author: flowerschild Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301210 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 6:33 PM
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While mothers can call upon the state to coerce the father to pay child support, a father victim of the various methods women use to deny visitation cannot.

So mom gains money from state coercion of fathers and often can deny visitation to fathers without consequences.

The child support racket is a marvelous system.

Seattle Pioneer




I think your first clause should read:

While the custodial parent can call upon the state to coerce the non-custodial parent to pay child support...

So I fixed that for you, SP.


a father victim of the various methods women use to deny visitation cannot.

I agree that either parent, whether custodial or non-custodial, should have equal access to their child (in a normal, non-abusive to the child relationship). Perhaps you should make your feelings known to your local judges and county administrators, and vote accordingly.

The clause you wrote stating: ....a father victim of the various methods women use to deny visitation cannot.
is your typical inflammatory fare. I translate it as:

"O, lo those pernicious women-folk who use their wiles against the meek, unsuspecting kindly male."

And I realize again that you are not seeking solutions or the truth, but just slashing out at the phantoms in your life.

If you really think the child support system is a racket, set about to fix it. I personally never thought parents should be on the hook for the kid's college education, since the "kid" is then 18.

I've no kids and am very happily partnered for 20 years, but my new neighbors have three sweet kids and are currently divorcing. Some of their arguments make me concerned for those kids. I hope they rise above their conflict and keep their kids' needs as their top priority.


flowerschild

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301211 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 6:38 PM
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<<You can point out that nasty attitudes happen on both sides, you can offer anecdata and research studies, and he will still insist, to the bitter end, that everything that goes wrong in a marriage is because of the horrible wives, and men, in every single case, always get the bad end of the stick.>>


Of course your claim is absurd. There are plenty of bad actors among both men and women and I'm perfectly willing to condemn fools and abusers regardless of sex.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301212 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 6:43 PM
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<<You know, I thin you and tconi are wasting your time trying to tell sp that failing to pay child support leads to lack of visitation.

Oh, also this is not what I am saying either. Missed that on the first go-round; thanks, tconi, for pointing it out.

Like tconi said, visitation and child support are two COMPLETELY SEPARATE matters. You don't get to deny visitation because a parent is behind on their child support and you don't get to withhold child support because they're jacking around with your visitation.>>


Oh, LEGALLY they are separate. But their are plenty of custodial parents who use visitation as a bargaining tool with their ex spouse, or make using visitation rights burdensome in order to drive the non custodial parent away.

And the idea that local police are going to do more than be witnesses at when a child goes to the other parent is an interesting claim. Does anyone have a reference to that kind of police action?

I've heard of parents turning over children at a police station when they couldn't get along, but I'd be surprised if they are going to get very involved trying to enforce child custody orders, which really aren't their responsibility.

But I'd be glad to have someone illustrate that claim.



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Author: flowerschild Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301215 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 7:03 PM
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<<You can point out that nasty attitudes happen on both sides, you can offer anecdata and research studies, and he will still insist, to the bitter end, that everything that goes wrong in a marriage is because of the horrible wives, and men, in every single case, always get the bad end of the stick.

Windowseat>>


Of course your claim is absurd. There are plenty of bad actors among both men and women and I'm perfectly willing to condemn fools and abusers regardless of sex.

Seattle Pioneer



Absurd? Please.

To quote you:

"While mothers can call upon the state to coerce the father to pay child support, a father victim of the various methods women use to deny visitation cannot.

I'm sure you're "perfectly willing to condemn fools and abusers regardless of sex."

But you don't; because you're not seeking an honest discussion, just entertainment. You just like to bait good people and stir the pot.

Something to read online after you're done watching the afternoon soaps, perhaps.


flowerschild

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Author: TheEvilDrP Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301217 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 7:37 PM
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Oh, LEGALLY they are separate. But their are plenty of custodial parents who use visitation as a bargaining tool with their ex spouse, or make using visitation rights burdensome in order to drive the non custodial parent away.

And the idea that local police are going to do more than be witnesses at when a child goes to the other parent is an interesting claim. Does anyone have a reference to that kind of police action?

I've heard of parents turning over children at a police station when they couldn't get along, but I'd be surprised if they are going to get very involved trying to enforce child custody orders, which really aren't their responsibility.

But I'd be glad to have someone illustrate that claim.


First of all, no one claimed that the local police would do more than be witnesses. Law enforcement is present to act as witnesses to the fact that the children are not being transferred to the other parent and to prevent abuse, assault and battery or intimidation. I posted:

NON-CUSTODIAL PARENTS can request local law enforcement be present when they pick up their children. Additionally, they can pursue the matter in court if the CUSTODIAL PARENT continues to interfere. That is the job of the court; to adjudicate between two dissenting parties.


The offended parent would need to petition the courts who would then issue a contempt of court action against the offending parent. (I don't know how better to word that so please forgive the wording.) There is a reason, you know, that family law is its own practice with its own courts. However, local law enforcement has much leeway dependent on the locality.


http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C400-499/4520000425.HTM

Sheriff or law enforcement to enforce custody and visitation orders, when--limitations.

452.425. Any court order for the custody of, or visitation with, a child may include a provision that the sheriff or other law enforcement officer shall enforce the rights of any person to custody or visitation (bolding mine) unless the court issues a subsequent order pursuant to chapter* 210, 211, 452 or 455 to limit or deny the custody of, or visitations with, the child. Such sheriff or law enforcement officer shall not remove a child from a person who has actual physical custody of the child unless such sheriff or officer is shown a court order or judgment which clearly and convincingly verifies that such person is not entitled to the actual physical custody of the child, and there are not other exigent circumstances that would give the sheriff or officer reasonable suspicion to believe that the child would be harmed or that the court order presented to the sheriff or officer may not be valid.


http://hannahs-house.org/FAQ.htm#How%20is%20local%20law%20en...
How is local law enforcement involved in the work of the professional supervised visitation monitor?

Law enforcement personnel will enforce court orders, including enforcing supervised visitation and supervised exchanges. (again, bolding mine) While the police can enforce orders, they do not have the authority to over ride the policies, procedures, and decisions of the professional monitor/agency which have been established to provide services in compliance with Section 5.20 of the California Rules of Court. When a monitor/agency has decided to prevent, suspend or terminate an exchange or visit, law enforcement cannot force the monitor or agency to change that decision. They can enforce a visitation or exchange separate from and off the property of the monitor/agency, unless the Court Order specifies that the visitation or exchange must be conducted by a particular monitor/agency and the monitor/agency is unwilling to participate.



Additionally, many localities have programs in place to assist the non-custodial parent with visitation concerns such as:

http://www.co.travis.tx.us/dro/enforce_visit.asp

Visitation Enforcement Services are offered as a part of Travis County's Cooperative Parenting Program...

...Visitation Enforcement helps non-custodial parents who are being denied access to their children receive their visitation rights. (again bolding mine) Child access can only be enforced according to what is stated in your final Travis County court order.



Divorce laws and proceedings have changed a great deal in the past forty years. The focus is on what is best for the CHILD(REN).

Minxie

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301218 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 8:27 PM
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<<I'm sure you're "perfectly willing to condemn fools and abusers regardless of sex."

But you don't;>>



Sure I do!


<<because you're not seeking an honest discussion, just entertainment. You just like to bait good people and stir the pot. >>

Who, ME?


Be serious. I didn't start this thread. And by my recollection it's been months since the last discussion of the child support and child custody racket.



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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 8:42 PM
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<<Visitation Enforcement

Visitation Enforcement Services are offered as a part of Travis County's Cooperative Parenting Program.

Domestic Relations Office attorneys and staff are considered "Friends of the Court" and do not represent you or any party. Domestic Relations Office attorneys and enforcement officers decide what enforcement remedies will be used based on the particular facts of your case. >>



First time I've seen that. That's an improvement over the situation men often find themselves in, denied visitation by the mom and not having $15,000 to pay to a lawyer to go to court.


By contrast however there is a well funded, nationwide government program to squeeze men for child support.

The scales of justice between enforcing child support and child visitation orders I suggest remains grossly skewed.



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Author: TheEvilDrP Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301221 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/27/2011 9:32 PM
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By contrast however there is a well funded, nationwide government program to squeeze men for child support.


SP, I just think you don't care to get it. The UIFSA was not established to squeeze men for child support. It was established to provide a structure and mechanism to force PARENTS to be financially responsible for their offspring, something I'd think you would favor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Interstate_Family_Suppo...

...The act addresses non-payment of child support obligations and limits the jurisdiction that could properly establish and modify child support orders. It has been adopted by every U.S. state....

...Whenever more than one state is involved in the establishing, enforcing or modifying a child or spousal support order, the Act is implemented to determine the jurisdiction and power of the courts in the different states. The Act also establishes which state's law will be applied in proceedings under the Act, an important factor as support laws vary greatly among the states.


It clarifies which state's laws apply, which is exceedingly helpful in interstate cases such as when one parent moves away from the children or never lived in the same state. It helps states work together to establish paternity, legitimate the child, set support orders and enforce those orders. This can work for or against the custodial parent. As an example, my son's father lives in WV; the amount of support set there is much lower than in my home state so in this instance, UIFSA works against me as his state will set the support order.

Each parent has an obligation to their child, whether they want it or not. If a person doesn't want to pay child support or rear a child, s/he ought not risk creating a child. If s/he does create a child, then there is a financial and moral obligation to that child to provide him or her with adequate food, clothing and shelter.

Additionally while many child support orders might seem overly generous to you, many are wickedly parsimonious. I know of custodial parents who have been ordered support at the rate of $20/month. That doesn't cover shoes, let alone daycare, food, or housing for that child. So the custodial parent bears essentially the entire financial burden because the noncustodial parent found a way to scam the system. The noncustodial parent still has visitation rights even though they're not supporting their child.

Some parents take lower paying jobs or refuse to work altogether simply because they don't want their money going to support the other parent. As a single parent, I can tell you that every bit of the support I receive PLUS my own money is used to support my child. EVERY BIT PLUS. Children aren't cheap and yet, some people would like to think that the custodial parent should take on the entire burden themselves. It doesn't work that way.

Lastly, AGAIN, both parents have an obligation to co-parent the child(ren). It is woefully easy for noncustodial parents to walk away from their children and just never call or see them. Who does that hurt? THE CHILD. If an NCP is truly worried about their child and what is best for him/her, then s/he is best served by being an active parent in that child's life.

Minxie
Minxie

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301223 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 9:28 AM
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But heck, how about this? When minor children are present, grant a divorce if a court decides that divorce "is in the best interest of the children."

Yeah, how would that work? In homes where the parents take great pains to try to keep the children from knowing that they are miserable with each other, how would you determine if it's in the best interest of the child? What about families where one parent travels a lot and the child doesn't see him or her very much anyway? While I agree that in most cases, kids are better off with two parents in a stable relationship, I have also seen how much stress a bad marriage can put on the kids of the marriage.

Did your parents stay together for the sake of the children? Was it stressful for them? Is that why you became a confirmed bachelor?

LWW

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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 9:33 AM
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While mothers can call upon the state to coerce the father to pay child support, a father victim of the various methods women use to deny visitation cannot.

Bullsh!t. In every state, fathers can petition the Court to enforce visitation. Even if they have never been married to the mother. In fact, one of the most basic things the AGs office does in TX is draft out a child support and visitation schedule upon confirmation of paternity.

The reality is that there are far too many non-custodial parents out there, both male and female who don't want the responsibility of supporting or seeing their children.

LWW

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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 9:40 AM
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In Texas it is really difficult to get alimony. They don't even call it that here. Instead you have to petition the court for "Temporary Spousal Support" as part of or in response to the divorce petition. Generally you have to show you lack an education and/or are generally unemployable, lacking any recent employment experience. Spousal support is often terminated when the divorce is finalized and it cannot exceed $2,500/month in any case. And yes ... either spouse can file for support.

Joel,

you missed the part where you have to have been married for a minimum of 10 years in order to qualify for it. Also, it can be extended up to 24 months after the finalization of the divorce. The idea being that the spouse should be capable of getting some sort of job training and be able to support themselves after two years. I have a good friend who has stayed with her abusive husband for over 25 years because she can't afford to support the kids without him, and both kids are currently in college. She will probably leave him when the kids actually graduate and move out. He's a real control freak who refuses to allow his kids to drive, and requires that she shuttle the kids to school everyday. I had the misfortune to deal with him on an academic misconduct case. Quite honestly, their relationship has screwed up the kids nine ways to Sunday.

LWW

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301226 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 11:38 AM
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But heck, how about this? When minor children are present, grant a divorce if a court decides that divorce "is in the best interest of the children."

Yeah, how would that work? In homes where the parents take great pains to try to keep the children from knowing that they are miserable with each other, how would you determine if it's in the best interest of the child? What about families where one parent travels a lot and the child doesn't see him or her very much anyway? While I agree that in most cases, kids are better off with two parents in a stable relationship, I have also seen how much stress a bad marriage can put on the kids of the marriage.



Thank you for illustrating that the default position of advocates of the divorce culture is usually divorce by either married person, at any time for any reason or no reason.

Advocates of the divorce culture routinely accept the ability of courts to decide what is in the "best interest of the child" but they don't want to limit the divorce culture to that standard when it comes to modifying divorce on demand by a parent.

The simple fact is that advocates of the divorce culture do not want the interests of the children to stand between them and a divorce. The interests of the children are expendable.



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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 11:40 AM
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<<The reality is that there are far too many non-custodial parents out there, both male and female who don't want the responsibility of supporting or seeing their children.

LWW >>



That's primarily true only AFTER a divorce occurs.

BEFORE a divorce occurs it's usually not a problem.




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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301228 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 11:45 AM
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That's primarily true only AFTER a divorce occurs.

BEFORE a divorce occurs it's usually not a problem.


BS.

I've known people who never went home when the kids were awake. Leave early in the morning for work when the kids were still in bed, then out with co-workers after work, and not home until after the kids are back in bed.

Then fight with the spouse about never being there, and spending most of their paycheck at the bar.

And this is gender-neutral.

Ishtar

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301229 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 11:52 AM
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She will probably leave him when the kids actually graduate and move out. He's a real control freak who refuses to allow his kids to drive, and requires that she shuttle the kids to school everyday. I had the misfortune to deal with him on an academic misconduct case. Quite honestly, their relationship has screwed up the kids nine ways to Sunday.

LWW


Oh, the CALAMITY! Children who aren't permitted to drive! That's certainly a good reason for divorce.


<<I have a good friend who has stayed with her abusive husband for over 25 years because she can't afford to support the kids without him>>



What we need then are more government subsidies so that people who can't afford to get a divorce can get one anyway? Divorce is a social goal which should be an object of public policy support?


After they graduate from college presumably these oppressed children with have the money needed to cry out their conflicts on the couch of a therapist.


Sorry, not impressed based on your anecdote.



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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301230 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 11:57 AM
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<<I've known people who never went home when the kids were awake. Leave early in the morning for work when the kids were still in bed, then out with co-workers after work, and not home until after the kids are back in bed.

Then fight with the spouse about never being there, and spending most of their paycheck at the bar.

And this is gender-neutral.

Ishtar >>



So you have two parents cooperating voluntarily to provide for their children. A divorce is going to improve that how?


Personally I don't really give a fig if the parents are unhappy. They made their choice when the got married and had children.



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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301231 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 12:34 PM
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That's primarily true only AFTER a divorce occurs.

BEFORE a divorce occurs it's usually not a problem.

Seattle Pioneer


Not necessarily, separation often precedes divorce. Just because a couple is married doesn't mean that they live at the same place or talk to each other.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301232 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 12:37 PM
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Oh, the CALAMITY! Children who aren't permitted to drive! That's certainly a good reason for divorce.

You missed the control freak part of the sentence and that the children are in COLLEGE. My aunt was the same. She took her daughter to college everyday (no public transportation available and it would not have been permitted). It did seriously mess up the daughter life. She married at the first opportunity and ended up in an iffy marriage.

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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 1:04 PM
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<<Oh, the CALAMITY! Children who aren't permitted to drive! That's certainly a good reason for divorce.

You missed the control freak part of the sentence and that the children are in COLLEGE. My aunt was the same. She took her daughter to college everyday (no public transportation available and it would not have been permitted). It did seriously mess up the daughter life. She married at the first opportunity and ended up in an iffy marriage.>>


Why the POOR BABY! Imagine how abusive that aunt was! OH, the CALAMITY! Traumatized for life, no doubt?



Personally, I didn't learn to drive until I'd completed graduate school and needed to drive for the job I got. (generous car allowance and gas and oil included).

Cars are a money pit and a luxury best avoided by those in school, is my opinion.




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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 1:14 PM
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Does it honestly never occur to that what worked for you isn't necessarily the best route for EVERYONE ELSE?


Oh, and I cannot believe that you honestly think one parent never home and frivolously spending their pay is "too parents collaborating" because it is not. It is one parent acting like a child (and de facto abandonment) and leaving the other with all the responsibility.

Might as well be divorced, it is easier than living with that stress.

Ishtar

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301236 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 2:09 PM
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Why the POOR BABY! Imagine how abusive that aunt was! OH, the CALAMITY! Traumatized for life, no doubt?

Personally, I didn't learn to drive until I'd completed graduate school and needed to drive for the job I got. (generous car allowance and gas and oil included).

Cars are a money pit and a luxury best avoided by those in school, is my opinion.


You are missing the point. Not being allowed to drive was symptom of the problem. Yes, her life was damaged. Her relationship with her mother was harmed. It was done to completely control her life, including friends.

Also, in an area that doesn't have public transit, driving is necessary to earn money. Her brothers earned money for their cars.

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301238 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 3:27 PM
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Also, in an area that doesn't have public transit, driving is necessary to earn money. Her brothers earned money for their cars.

Exactly. In this situation, the kids have never been allowed to get jobs. Dad picked a house that is in a very remote area of the county with no public transportation at all. The son wanted to go to University of Texas, which is about 100 miles away from here. His dad got so abusive towards his mom in the last few months of the son's senior year, he ended up going to A&M in order to be close to home to protect his mom and sister. His sister is now at the local community college and mom has to drive both of them on a 30 mile round trip every school day, which means she has to stay in town while they're in school or drive another 30 miles to pick them up. Mom has a bachelors degree from UT and a paralegal degree from community college, but she has not been allowed to work outside the home during the entire time they've been married.

LWW

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Author: determinedmom Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301243 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 2/28/2011 8:05 PM
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Personally I don't really give a fig if the parents are unhappy. They made their choice when the got married and had children.

I have to say that while I don't agree with you about child support I agree with this. I think that parents of minor children are way too cavalier about divorcing and I would have no problem -- with a few exceptions -- in providing that parents of minor children can't divorce unless it is in the best interest of the children. (I do think they could live apart). The exceptions that I can think of off the top of my head are (1) domestic violence, (2) serious substance abuse and possibly and (3) possibly adultery at the option of the wronged party (i.e. not at the choice of the adulterer).

Basically I don't think that parents of minor children should be able to divorce for reasons such as irreconcilable differences or not being happy or not being fulfilled unless such as a divorce was in the best interests of the children.

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Author: pachouly Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301244 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/1/2011 10:37 AM
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Personally I don't really give a fig if the parents are unhappy. They made their choice when the got married and had children.

I know this is talking to a brick wall, but there are actually times when a divorce is better for the whole family - children included - even in the absence of physical abuse.

pachouly

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Author: determinedmom Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301245 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/1/2011 12:28 PM
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I think the position SP was espousing was that divorce would be OK if in the best interests of the children but not if the parents were just unhappy and it wasn't in the best interests of the children.

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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/1/2011 12:29 PM
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I would have no problem -- with a few exceptions -- in providing that parents of minor children can't divorce unless it is in the best interest of the children. (I do think they could live apart). The exceptions that I can think of off the top of my head are (1) domestic violence, (2) serious substance abuse and possibly and (3) possibly adultery at the option of the wronged party (i.e. not at the choice of the adulterer).

I think this is unworkable until/unless the law changed such that each party in a marriage was considered a separate financial entity during the marriage - no obligation to pay for the others debts or obligation to share any gain for that matter, while still allowing large untaxed gifts from one to the other. Seems pretty unlikely to me.

In other words, I'm pretty sure Patzer and Joel wouldn't agree with this LOL

LL

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Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/1/2011 12:38 PM
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Well I live in a community property state and there are plenty of debts that one person is not obligated to pay for the other. It isn't like being married automatically makes you liable for all debts of the other.

That said, if one party was extremely financially irresponsible then divorce might be in the best interest of the children and under my view would be justifiable. The point is that in most instances the best interests of the children come first.

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Author: Patzer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301249 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/1/2011 2:12 PM
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I would have no problem -- with a few exceptions -- in providing that parents of minor children can't divorce unless it is in the best interest of the children. (I do think they could live apart). The exceptions that I can think of off the top of my head are (1) domestic violence, (2) serious substance abuse and possibly and (3) possibly adultery at the option of the wronged party (i.e. not at the choice of the adulterer).

I think this is unworkable until/unless the law changed such that each party in a marriage was considered a separate financial entity during the marriage


No, it's unworkable because it's a fuzzy standard. You start with two parents who have serious disagreements about what is in the best interest of the children, then the court has to make a decision based on evidence presented by adversarial advocates whose goal is winning rather than elucidating the truth.

We have a "best interest of the children" standard for custody disputes now. That's probably unavoidable, but the adversarial nature of American legal proceedings guarantees that a lot of kids are going to get sub-optimal results.

Adding a "best interest of the children" standard as a requirement for granting a divorce at all would be foolish. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to require someone who wants a divorce to beat his/her kids to prove that divorce would be better for the kids.

FWIW, I pursued the divorce that my ex asked for in major part because I thought it would be in the best interest of our daughter. My ex might or might not have agreed, but I truly believe that the best interest of our daughter wasn't on the ex's radar screen.

Patzer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301251 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/1/2011 3:21 PM
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<<Does it honestly never occur to that what worked for you isn't necessarily the best route for EVERYONE ELSE?>>



Sorry, I just can't bring myself to weep for a poor college student who has to put up with her aunt providing chauffeured limousine service to college rather than having her own car.


EVERYONE ELSE is entitled to do what they wish to make their way in the world. But don't expect sympathy from other people when you make foolish nor stupid decisions.

Frankly this young woman comes across as a spoiled brat, not a victim.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301252 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/1/2011 3:25 PM
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<<Personally I don't really give a fig if the parents are unhappy. They made their choice when the got married and had children.

I know this is talking to a brick wall, but there are actually times when a divorce is better for the whole family - children included - even in the absence of physical abuse.

pachouly >>


Fine! So will you support my proposal to limit divorce to occasions when a court determines divorce to be in the best interest of minor children in the family?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301256 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/1/2011 4:20 PM
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Sorry, I just can't bring myself to weep for a poor college student who has to put up with her aunt providing chauffeured limousine service to college rather than having her own car.

You are avoiding looking at the entire issue. The chauffeur service was at quite a personal price. She wasn't allowed to work. Her brothers were free to work and pay for their own cars. It allowed the mother to control where she was at all times. It allowed control of her friends.

It isn't an issue of a spoiled brat, but of a parent not allowing a child to become an adult. By the time someone is in their 20s, they should be well on a path to being self supporting.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301258 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/1/2011 5:48 PM
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<<Sorry, I just can't bring myself to weep for a poor college student who has to put up with her aunt providing chauffeured limousine service to college rather than having her own car.

You are avoiding looking at the entire issue. The chauffeur service was at quite a personal price. She wasn't allowed to work. Her brothers were free to work and pay for their own cars. It allowed the mother to control where she was at all times. It allowed control of her friends.>>



Boo hoo.


<<It isn't an issue of a spoiled brat, but of a parent not allowing a child to become an adult. By the time someone is in their 20s, they should be well on a path to being self supporting.>>



If she was unhappy, she should be off on her own. She could have been an adult fast enough had she wanted to be.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: joelcorley Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301261 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/1/2011 11:10 PM
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llambe,

SeattlePioneer wrote, I would have no problem -- with a few exceptions -- in providing that parents of minor children can't divorce unless it is in the best interest of the children. (I do think they could live apart). The exceptions that I can think of off the top of my head are (1) domestic violence, (2) serious substance abuse and possibly and (3) possibly adultery at the option of the wronged party (i.e. not at the choice of the adulterer).

To which you replied, I think this is unworkable until/unless the law changed such that each party in a marriage was considered a separate financial entity during the marriage - no obligation to pay for the others debts or obligation to share any gain for that matter, while still allowing large untaxed gifts from one to the other. Seems pretty unlikely to me.

In other words, I'm pretty sure Patzer and Joel wouldn't agree with this LOL


I actually didn't get divorced until my kids weren't minors - complying with SeattlePioneer's suggestion. I kind of agree with him in principal; but I think any attempt to regulate divorce as he suggests is doomed to either failure or abuse because it is rarely possible to make an objective decision about the best interest of children when it comes to their parents remaining married.

- Joel

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301262 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/2/2011 12:06 AM
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If she was unhappy, she should be off on her own. She could have been an adult fast enough had she wanted to be.

Seattle Pioneer


It isn't easy for a child that has been conditioned to be subissive. Given the parenting, the daughter was still an emotional child. She "got out" the way most girls get out, by getting married as soon as possible. The marriage results in children. You would be happy. She stayed in a difficult marriage and became the sole support of the household. It contributed to her death.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301263 of 308369
Subject: Re: Poll: Should Child Support Be Used For Court Date: 3/2/2011 3:20 AM
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<<If she was unhappy, she should be off on her own. She could have been an adult fast enough had she wanted to be.

Seattle Pioneer

It isn't easy for a child that has been conditioned to be subissive. Given the parenting, the daughter was still an emotional child. She "got out" the way most girls get out, by getting married as soon as possible. The marriage results in children. You would be happy. She stayed in a difficult marriage and became the sole support of the household. It contributed to her death.>>



You have a million excuses for people who have no responsibility for the decisions they make.


Sorry, not impressed.



Seattle Pioneer

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