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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 30311  
Subject: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 11:38 AM
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OK, so we're giving it a try (me: < 30g carbs per day, hubby: < 55 g carbs per day), and now I have a couple of concerns.


First of all, this is going to put me in the poorhouse. Holy crap. I spent $95 on groceries for the week for the two of us on Friday, another $20 on Sunday on stuff I forgot, and I'm going to need to make another run today. Is there any possible way to make any inexpensive meals? Ugh.


Second, I feel nothing different. Nothing. No cravings (well, unless you count finding bowling Saturday night a little lacking without a beer), no dizziness, no lightheadedness, no muscle cramps, no "fuzzy" feeling. Nothing different. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong?


Third, I most certainly am hungry. I'm eating waaaay more protein than I'm "supposed" to (55 g per day minimum). It's not carb cravings (chicken or ham or cheese or nuts satisfy it) and I'm pretty sure it's not dehydration (I average 1/2 - 3/4 gallon of water a day). Does this mean I'm doing something wrong.


Oh, and can someone explain the whole "sugar alcohol" thing to me? I bought some sugar-free syrup that has 12g carbs, but 10g "sugar alcohol" per serving. Am I correct in thinking that this makes it a net 2g carbs?


I'm already bored with the food, and it's only been 3 days.


Jan
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Author: Adenovir Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5790 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 12:16 PM
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Hey Jan!

I'll step up to the plate...

First of all, this is going to put me in the poorhouse. Holy crap. I spent $95 on groceries for the week for the two of us on Friday, another $20 on Sunday on stuff I forgot, and I'm going to need to make another run today. Is there any possible way to make any inexpensive meals? Ugh.

It is a bit more expensive to do low carb, however, once you get past the start up costs things settle down a bit. If you were eating lots of processed foods prior to low carbing, the cost shouldn't change much. If you were living on pasta, then costs will certainly go up. We eat alot of eggs, chicken, ground beef, broccoli and cauliflower. The veggies help keep costs down. Of course, the need to buy new and smaller clothes will not keep costs down!

Second, I feel nothing different. Nothing. No cravings (well, unless you count finding bowling Saturday night a little lacking without a beer), no dizziness, no lightheadedness, no muscle cramps, no "fuzzy" feeling. Nothing different. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong?

I didn't feel any different during induction, not everybody does. If you're not sure if you are doing it right, check your urine for ketones. You can get the test strips at most supermarkets in the diabetics section. Look for any positive reading. Doesn't matter if you are trace ketones or more. Just that the test is positive. At <30gm carbs/day I would expect you to be positive. Also look for significant improvement in how clothes fit in the first week or two.

Third, I most certainly am hungry.

You shouldn't be hungry. Have an extra egg with breakfast, some more tuna salad with lunch, a big pile of broccoli at dinner (don't forget the butter!). Eat until you are comfortably full, not stuffed. Don't leave the table hungry!!!


Oh, and can someone explain the whole "sugar alcohol" thing to me?

Sugar alcohols are controversial. The official word is that they don't count as carbs. However, some people say that they slow down weight loss and stop ketosis. They also certainly have a strong laxative effect when consumed in large quantities (BEWARE!!!). You need to figure out what effect they have on you. Most people would suggest avoiding them on induction and then slowly adding some to your diet and see what happens.

Good Luck!

Adenovir

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Author: DeltaDog2 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5792 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 12:46 PM
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First of all, this is going to put me in the poorhouse. Holy crap. I spent $95 on groceries for the week for the two of us on Friday, another $20 on Sunday on stuff I forgot, and I'm going to need to make another run today. Is there any possible way to make any inexpensive meals? Ugh.

Without knowing what you bought it's hard to say, but buying real food instead of specialty stuff makes a huge difference. I buy a lot of eggs, choose meats based on what's on sale, and veggies are always fairly cheap. Cheese does tend to be more expensive, but I try to buy it on sale. When I do decide to get specialty stuff, it's definitely pricey (I budget for it occasionally though).

Second, I feel nothing different. Nothing. No cravings (well, unless you count finding bowling Saturday night a little lacking without a beer), no dizziness, no lightheadedness, no muscle cramps, no "fuzzy" feeling. Nothing different. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong?

Nope.. some people never get the “induction flu.” If you're not seeing any weight loss yet, it's also possible you are eating more carbs than you realize. Most people start losing at least some water weight within the first few days. If you want to post a few days' worth of menus we might be able to help determine if that's the problem.

Third, I most certainly am hungry. I'm eating waaaay more protein than I'm "supposed" to (55 g per day minimum). It's not carb cravings (chicken or ham or cheese or nuts satisfy it) and I'm pretty sure it's not dehydration (I average 1/2 - 3/4 gallon of water a day). Does this mean I'm doing something wrong.

I'm not sure which plan you're following, but I think that all of them say to be sure and eat if/when you're hungry. It might be that you're not eating enough fat, though. If you aren't in ketosis yet, your appetite won't be suppressed yet – it took me a few days to get the appetite suppression so that I wasn't hungry much.

Oh, and can someone explain the whole "sugar alcohol" thing to me? I bought some sugar-free syrup that has 12g carbs, but 10g "sugar alcohol" per serving. Am I correct in thinking that this makes it a net 2g carbs?

Technically, yes. Although I have seen speculation that the sugar alcohols do impact blood sugar in some people. It really varies by your own sensitivity to it.

I'm already bored with the food, and it's only been 3 days.

There's definitely no need to be bored. If you check out the recipe thread that RotJob posted, you'll find lots of ideas. Hopefully the menu threads will give you some ideas, too. I think one of the most important things early on is making the commitment NOT to get bored with it, or it makes it too hard to stick to. Here are a few things I tried when I started to help with the possible boredom (it's been a year now and I'm definitely not bored so I think it worked pretty well):

-- I printed off the list of “induction acceptable veggies” from the Atkins site (even if you're not following Atkins it's a good list of low carb veggies). I tried a new veggie that I'd never had before every week, and found some new ones that I really like to add to my regular weekly menus.
-- I tried a new meat/fish every few weeks for a while, although admittedly there's not as much variety there.
-- I made a new recipe at least once a week. I started by finding recipes for items that I missed from my “carb” days – RotJob's mac and cheese would be a good example. Then I branched out into various new recipes that looked good. I just bought the Dana Carpender “500 low carb recipes” book last week and it's given me lots of new ideas. Most of the low carb books have recipes in them too, so you could start there.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

Nikki


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Author: beccapooka Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5799 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 2:08 PM
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Jan,

The cost of food is a concern for me, too. Plus I still have to buy some 'normal' food for my kids. I maybe be able to eat a ham and cheese sandwich without the bread, but I can't tell them to do that!

Ground beef isn't overly expensive and we've been eating more of that than anything else. Chicken should be even cheaper. Jeff's allergic so we can't have that. I made my own ketchup and it's really good so one night we just had normal cheeseburgers just without the buns. Another night we had pizza burgers, again no bun. Tonight we are having steak! We won't do that often, but I feel like my wonderful husband (who basically got dragged into this) needs a reward. Eggs are super cheap. I would have said that I am not a big fan of eggs, but I have really been enjoying them scrambled with some cheese for breakfast in the morning, and I made a spinach fritata for dinner one night. Jeff is taking a chef's salad for lunch every day with italian dressing. We really like taco salads. Last night I made a neat casserole with shredded cauliflower, green beans, ground beef, tomato sauce, and some seasonings. I made suprisingly good pork chops one night. I sprayed my pan with olive oil (Tupperware and Pampered Chef both carry oil sprayer things, I haven't seen them elsewhere) and fried the pork chops with a little garlic powder and black pepper. (I don't use salt, but you could if you want.) I am planning on doing a chicken breast similar to that for my lunch tomorrow.

I guess what I am finding is that while the food I am eating is more expensive, I am not buying *any* junk! Last year, I proably spent even more on groceries because I would run out for ice cream every night, or eat a 1/2 pound of gourmet chocolate every day for 3 days, or I'd buy a cheesecake and eat the whole thing in 3 days, etc, etc, etc. I figure that if I made room for that junk I can make room for extra meat. I still buy bread for the kids, and I have stock-piled pasta for so long that with just the kids eating it I bet it will last a year!

HTH

Rebecca


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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5801 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 2:25 PM
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I'm not sure which plan you're following, but I think that all of them say to be sure and eat if/when you're hungry.

I guess I didn't word that very well. I am eating if/when I'm hungry, it's just that I'm noticing that involving a lot of food. Where is this self-regulating hunger thing? I can't believe I'm going to lose much weight if I'm taking in 4000 calories a day. I mean, I realize the theory is that some calories are "better" than others, but honestly ... no calories are that good! :)

And, btw, if this thing doesn't work, I am going to be so pissed that I got back into the habit of eating a large volume of food. It's just going to make going back to a regular diet that much harder.


If you check out the recipe thread that RotJob posted, you'll find lots of ideas.

I made the pancakes yesterday, and they were quite tasty. It looks to me, though, like a lot of his recipes are lowish carb, but not low enough for the beginning levels. I'm trying really hard to squeeze in a little bit of milk (if you made a list of foods I wouldn't want to give up, I think skim milk would be at the very top - they've got low-carb beer, couldn't they make low-carb milk?), which takes up 1/3 of the carb allotment for the day right there.


I started by finding recipes for items that I missed from my “carb” days

I'm not sure why this doesn't seem like a great idea to me. It seems like if I"m going to change the way we eat, I should change the way we eat - not try to eat like I used to. Surely if this diet (call it "way of eating" if you like, but anything that requires 6 hours of planning for a week-long menu is a "diet", in my book) is so natural and all, there is regular food that can be eaten on it. Or is that an unreasonable expectation?


Jan

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Author: DeltaDog2 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5802 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 2:58 PM
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I guess I didn't word that very well. I am eating if/when I'm hungry, it's just that I'm noticing that involving a lot of food. Where is this self-regulating hunger thing? I can't believe I'm going to lose much weight if I'm taking in 4000 calories a day. I mean, I realize the theory is that some calories are "better" than others, but honestly ... no calories are that good! :)

And, btw, if this thing doesn't work, I am going to be so pissed that I got back into the habit of eating a large volume of food. It's just going to make going back to a regular diet that much harder.


It does take a few days for you to get into ketosis. If you're eating too many carbs or not enough fat, you probably won't get into ketosis, and your appetite won't drop as it should.


I'm trying really hard to squeeze in a little bit of milk (if you made a list of foods I wouldn't want to give up, I think skim milk would be at the very top - they've got low-carb beer, couldn't they make low-carb milk?), which takes up 1/3 of the carb allotment for the day right there.

I understand not wanting to give it up, but this may be causing you more problems than you'd think. The sugar in the milk may be preventing you from getting into ketosis, which is where the appetite regulation comes in. The higher the fat content in the milk the lower the sugar content, so skim milk actually has the most sugar in it (cream has the least). When I am really craving milk (which happens less and less often), I mix some heavy cream with some water until it's the consistency that I want, and drink that. You might want to give that a try.


I started by finding recipes for items that I missed from my “carb” days

I'm not sure why this doesn't seem like a great idea to me. It seems like if I"m going to change the way we eat, I should change the way we eat - not try to eat like I used to. Surely if this diet (call it "way of eating" if you like, but anything that requires 6 hours of planning for a week-long menu is a "diet", in my book) is so natural and all, there is regular food that can be eaten on it. Or is that an unreasonable expectation?

I probably should have said that better. What I mean is, say I was missing pizza, I find a recipe for something that's natural, regular food, but also pizza-like (thus, meat crust pizza). Well…I guess salami isn't really very natural…hehe.. but it is low carb. Eggs and cheese are regular food - and with those you can make quiches, a "mac and cheese" like dish, an omelet, etc. I now make spaghetti with my same old homemade sauce, but put it on spaghetti squash. To me part of learning to make this something you can live with is learning new ways of cooking, or “decarb” recipes. It doesn't mean eating low carb bread or Atkins muffins every day, but certainly adding some variety by finding new ways to cook old favorites works well. I eat mashed cauliflower because I like it as a new veggie option for low carb eating…. I eat the egg crepe “mac and cheese” because it's a really tasty protein choice. They might resemble mashed potatoes or macaroni and cheese, but I also look at them as a whole NEW dish option for low carb.

Which plan are you following? It might help us to provide better advice for you. I spend maybe 20 minutes figuring out my menus for the week (if that... most of the time I just buy ingredients that I know I like, and wing it as far as what to make every day). It doesn't have to be very difficult, although there's definitely a "learning curve" as far as cooking techniques and shopping lists go.


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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5803 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 3:11 PM
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I understand not wanting to give it up, but this may be causing you more problems than you'd think.

Why would it cause problems if I'm calculating it into my daily carb totals?


Which plan are you following? It might help us to provide better advice for you.

The one in the Protein Power book. I (and my 45% body fat) am on Phase I (< 30g carb per day). Hubby's on Phase II (< 55g carb per day). I'm supposed to be aiming for a minimum of 55g protein, and hubby's at 80g protein.


It doesn't have to be very difficult, although there's definitely a "learning curve" as far as cooking techniques and shopping lists go.

I sure hope there's a power curve when it comes to cost, too. I don't think I can stomach $600 a month for groceries.


Jan

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Author: DeltaDog2 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5804 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 3:31 PM
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Why would it cause problems if I'm calculating it into my daily carb totals?

Since it's so many carbs all at once, and it's in the form of a sugar rather than something slower to digest, it can cause a blood sugar spike. This could then be leading to increased hunger. Whole milk or the cream/water I suggested has more fat and less carbs, so it's more likely to satisfy hunger with less of a blood sugar spike.

Sort of the same principle as not eating 20 carbs worth of M&Ms – it might fit into your daily totals, but it's going to really cause problems with your blood sugar and insulin.

Here are a few links that you might want to look at (they're taken from the Atkins site just because it's the one I'm most familiar with).

http://atkinscenter.com/Archive/2002/6/4-112589.html
http://atkinscenter.com/Archive/2001/12/15-683944.html

Also found a few interesting things on the Protein Power site FAQ. They definitely seem to like milk more than Atkins does, although they do say it would mean your carb limit for that meal. Here's what they had on it: http://eatprotein.com/answers4.htm#4f

Do I have to spread my carbohydrates around throughout the day or can I just save them all up and eat them all at once?
“You really can't save them up, unfortunately. Carbohydrates have an expiration date with each meal. There's a metabolic impact to eating carbohydrates.
If you eat 10 grams of carbohydrate, you're going to raise your insulin a little bit. If you eat 20 or 30 grams you're going to raise it more. If you've saved up all 40 grams throughout the day and you eat them all at one time, you're going to have a metabolic impact-your insulin is really going to go up. When that happens, it's like climbing right back on the insulin roller coaster-up goes the insulin, down goes the blood sugar, and then up goes the hunger and the cravings. You really do yourself more harm than good when you try to save up carbohydrates and use them all at one time.
If you plan to eat a little bit more carbohydrates than normal, the time to do it is in the morning.
Insulin receptors are more effective in the morning than they are later in the day. They actually move sugar out of the blood more quickly with less insulin.”
And http://eatprotein.com/answers6.htm#6d:

Is milk acceptable on the plan?
Yes, as long as you calculate the carbohydrate amount. Milk and plain yogurt are what we call "combination foods". They contain both protein and carbohydrates. In 8 oz. of each of these foods, there are approximately 12-13 grams of carbohydrate and 8-9 grams of protein. This would be your carbohydrate limit for that meal if you were following Phase I intervention.”

Hope that helps.



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Author: impolite Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5805 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 3:47 PM
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Why would it cause problems if I'm calculating it into my daily carb totals

It's almost a straight sugar in skim form (as in lactose).

I have a hyper-response to lactose - no sick tummy (unless I ingest it in great quantities), but I have a HUGE insulin spike because of it.

And, the days I drank milk, I wouldn't go into ketosis.

Now that I am on a quasi-maintenance plan, I can drink the milk in small quantities, and only whole at that. But, as far as the resultant sugar spike goes, I could probably just toss back some corn syrup for the same effect.

impolite


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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5806 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 3:55 PM
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In 8 oz. of each of these foods, there are approximately 12-13 grams of carbohydrate and 8-9 grams of protein.

Yeah, I'm talking about 3/4 cup of milk, which, according to the jug my milk came in, is 8g carbs.



I'm annoyed by all this talk (not you DeltaDog, the book/website/what have you) about cravings and stuff. I'm a big girl. I am capable of not eating carbs, even if I want them. So I would very much like to for them to differentiate between "it'll make it hard" and "it's bad for you".

I would gladly experience a little carb-craving (though I haven't noticed any) in order to have a little milk. Supposedly all carbs are exactly the same when they're broken down, right? I mean, that's what all the hysteria's about right? "Eating whole grain brain is just like having a spoonful of sugar" and all that.


Simple, my ass. There are more rules to this "simple way of eating" than an IRS tax form.


Jan
with hopes for a simple, painless weight-loss process somewhat dashed

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Author: TheNitpicker Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5807 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 3:57 PM
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If you are hungry, that probably means you are not eating enough FAT. Don't be afraid of good, natural fats.

It's normal for people to start out eating what seems like a LOT of food. It does level off after a while. There are probably various reasons for this (often past diets have left you protein and/or fat deficient) but it is nothing to be afraid of. Again, if you are eating what seems like a 'normal' portion of food and you are still hungry, fat is the first thing you ought to increase (because fat is the only macronutrient that does not increase your blood sugar.) Get some butter and olive oil on those veggies!

Eggs is cheap. Meats can be found cheaply if you shop smart. Low-carbing never will be as cheap as high-carbing because carb foods are subsidized by the govenment. One does have to accept a certain level of expense in order to eat real foods rather than empty carb calories - but that does not mean you can't do it cheapER.

Dana Carpender's 500 Low-Carb Recipes is the best all-around resource I know of for low-carb cooking in general. But really, any general-purpose cookbook is likely to contain plenty of recipes that can be used on a low-carb diet with no modification or minimal modification. I have found plenty of recipes in my Better Homes & Gardens cookbook that are naturally low-carb. Just look in the meat, fish, poultry, vegetables sections of any cookbook for the recipes that don't involve things like breading, crusts, etc. Or, if there is a carb quotient to a 'regular' recipe, it can often be elminated easily. Quiche is super-easy to cook without the crust. There's plenty of recipes that are just fine if you leave out the potatoes or what-not.

If you're bored you need to branch out. Try some lamb, some different kinds of fish, some gourmet sausages (not breakfast links - those are way too salty), heck, even a Cornish game hen or ostrich or venison! Try some different marinades with your meats. Try some vegetables you don't normally eat. Try some different vegetable recipes instead of just salad. And may I just say again that vegetables are awfully good with BOTH olive oil and butter on them.

nitpicker

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Author: chkNYC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5808 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 4:25 PM
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I'm already bored with the food, and it's only been 3 days.

Jan:

Wow, I'm eating LC for almost 3 months and I'm not bored at all!

I love thinking of tasty dishes I have had in the past and trying to make them low carb now. For instance, the great "lamb stew" I made on Saturday which had brussel sprouts instead of potatoes. Or the grated raw cauliflower which I use in some dishes.

And I am also experimenting with HOW I cook my veggies. Roasted cauliflower slices last week. Also sliced some baby eggplant (skin and all), dipped them in melted butter and then in crushed pecans and crushed pork rinds and baked them. (Going to do that for eggplant parm this week!)

I have to admit that I don't like a lot of butter or oil on my veggies but I do use olive oil to saute and use butter to cook my eggs. I eat macadamia nuts for a snack. I also started to whip up some ricotta cheese with hazelnut syrup and unsweetened cocoa on it.

For lunch today I had roast salmon. Tonight I'm having baked pork chops. Boring? I don't think so.

Maybe you should try reading the daily menus we were posting last week for ideas.

Christina

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Author: DeltaDog2 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5809 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 4:38 PM
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I'm annoyed by all this talk (not you DeltaDog, the book/website/what have you) about cravings and stuff. I'm a big girl. I am capable of not eating carbs, even if I want them. So I would very much like to for them to differentiate between "it'll make it hard" and "it's bad for you".

I know what you mean on the craving thing. What's worked pretty well for me is to recognize that when a food messes with (I know scientific term there..hehe) my blood sugar, it causes me to feel awful and become really, really hungry. Not just carb cravings, but an almost insatiable hunger. I think especially in the beginning when you're retraining your body to live on bodyfat and ketones instead of carbs that you're eating, anything that makes it harder is probably also bad for you. If you're eating something that causes you to have any kind of craving, it's probably messing with your blood sugar, too.

I would gladly experience a little carb-craving (though I haven't noticed any) in order to have a little milk. Supposedly all carbs are exactly the same when they're broken down, right? I mean, that's what all the hysteria's about right? "Eating whole grain brain is just like having a spoonful of sugar" and all that.

Not exactly… it does get quite a bit more complicated. Fiber slows the digestion of the carb, so it has less of an impact on your blood sugar. There's a whole concept out there called the “glycemic index” that basically ranks foods in terms of their impact on your blood sugar levels. Much more important for diabetics than those of us just trying to lose weight I think, but it is interesting. The Eades' say on their site that since they use the Effective Carb Content (carbs minus fiber), it naturally leads you to foods that aren't going to have a big impact on your blood sugar, so they don't worry about it too much.

Simple, my ass. There are more rules to this "simple way of eating" than an IRS tax form.

After having read both Atkins and Protein Power I honestly thought Atkins was much easier to follow in the “Phase I” or “Induction” part of it. Atkins is very straightforward in terms of here's what you can eat, here's what you can't, and here are amounts for you. He's a little “cocky” about it as opposed to Protein Power, but it's definitely easy. My first two weeks consisted of eggs for breakfast, salad and meat for lunch, salad or a side veg and meat for dinner. It was boring and I enjoyed adding more variety later, but it made the switch from high to low carb much easier on me.

All of the plans really end up being about learning what works best for your body – it's just much easier to do that once you get away from the crazy blood sugar swings that you go through when eating a lot of carbs all the time. In the long run it's very individual.

with hopes for a simple, painless weight-loss process somewhat dashed

Yeah… to me it's much easier than other ways of eating, and it also feels healthier to me (my body just feels so good now), but it's definitely not a quick fix or completely easy. It does get easier as time goes on, though.


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Author: Chaconne Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5812 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 4:48 PM
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I mean, that's what all the hysteria's about right? "Eating whole grain brain is just like having a spoonful of sugar" and all that.

I, for one, jan, don't believe that this is true. I may get booted off this board for saying that, ha,ha. Yeah, eating too much of the whole grain will probably hinder your weight loss. You have to find your own level of comfort with them. But (no matter what I've read to the contrary), whole grains are not the same (and are not used the same) as refined sugar.

Cut out the refined stuff. Flour, sugar, pasta. Go really easy on the starchy vegetables. Avoid them altogether if you find you can't lose weight while eating them. Eat whole fruit, stay away from juices. And avoid the starchy fruits, too, if, again, your weight doesn't go down and you're doing everything else.

And exercise. I don't think that exercise is emphasized enough. It is a major factor in weight loss and maintenance, not to mention general health. But you already exercise, don't you?

Andrea




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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5815 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 5:25 PM
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But you already exercise, don't you?

Yes, I do, although probably not "enough". Right now we do weight training 2 nights a week, cardio once, and "something active" on the weekend. "Something active" varies from bowling or horsey-ground-training to skiing or hiking or bike riding.

Jan

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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5817 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 5:59 PM
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If you were eating lots of processed foods prior to low carbing, the cost shouldn't change much. If you were living on pasta, then costs will certainly go up.

See, this kind of comment is why, IMO, people are turned off by the whole "low carb revolution". Do you really think those are the only two choices?

FWIW, I buy a few convenience foods (tomato sauce in a can, for example, and soup for cooking with, also in a can), but not very many. We make our own taco seasoning and meat marinades. I buy natural peanut butter, or grind my own at Fred Meyer. We were eating pasta, but I was making my own - whole wheat, spinach and roasted red pepper. I make as much stuff from scratch as is realistic, given that I have a full-time job and some semblance of a life elsewhere, and I make every effort to include as many "whole" foods in that as is practicable.

In other words, all people who don't subscribe the whole low-carb fad are not stuffing their fat faces with Twinkies and loaves of french bread and saying "since it's low fat, I can eat it." For a bunch of people that don't like having your food choices criticized, I see an awful lot of "ooo, we're so superior" attitude here.


So. Part of the reason this seems so expensive to me is that there doesn't appear to be a (reasonable) way for me to save some money by making my own. I have a meat grinder, so I might be able to look into buying a large chunk of beef or pork and make ground meat. Or maybe hubby will get lucky and get a deer in the fall and we can use some of that meat.

Other than "eat more eggs" (I fear that if we eat any more eggs, we will actually turn into chickens - I bought 2 dozen for this week alone), are there specific ways to save money buying food for this plan?


Jan
not, actually, an eater of Snackwells cookies for breakfast, lunch and dinner

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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5821 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 7:19 PM
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If you are hungry, that probably means you are not eating enough FAT. Don't be afraid of good, natural fats.

I'm not afraid of them, I just don't always like them. I cut the big fat chunks off my steak, not because I'm some panic-stricken no-fat-eater, but because I think the texture is gross. The idea of drinking straight cream, or eating pork rinds (aren't those things deep-fried? are we not trying to avoid trans-fats anymore?) just sounds horrible to me. Trust me when I say this is not because I'm holding onto an idea that fat is bad for me - it just sounds gross. Two percent milk gags me.

I do love cheese, though I prefer mozzarella to the really greasy ones. And the Protein Power book makes it sound like you should stay away from too much cheese, anyway.

Are there some fattier meats I could choose? We've eaten ham, because we like it, and chicken, because we already had some and fish, for variety.

Did I mention I don't like veggies much? I was assured they weren't an essential part of the program, but it sounds like that's where many of you get your variety from.


Try some lamb, some different kinds of fish, some gourmet sausages (not breakfast links - those are way too salty), heck, even a Cornish game hen or ostrich or venison!

Hmm ... these all sound even more expensive. I guess I can learn to live with bored if it means not pushing my grocery budget up over my rent budget. :)


I have found plenty of recipes in my Better Homes & Gardens cookbook that are naturally low-carb.

I have this cookbook - I'll take a look. Thanks.


Jan


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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5822 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 7:29 PM
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In other words, all people who don't subscribe the whole low-carb fad are not stuffing their fat faces with Twinkies and loaves of french bread and saying "since it's low fat, I can eat it." For a bunch of people that don't like having your food choices criticized, I see an awful lot of "ooo, we're so superior" attitude here.

Harsh. I don't know where you are getting your persecution complex from, since I've read every post on this board. You came to this board with a whining attitude right from the start. All I've seen are people taking a not inconsiderable amount of time out of their busy day to try to help you over the initial hump. Come to think of it, perhaps they are superior given all the consideration they are showing you.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want to lose weight, you have to compromise somewhere. Maybe things will be more expensive, or boring, or no longer what you are used to. Then again, it is what you are used to that got you to the weight you are today. No change is possible without an open mind.

InParadise


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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5823 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 8:03 PM
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I don't know where you are getting your persecution complex from, since I've read every post on this board.

I don't think I have a persecution complex. I think I'm just as tired of having assumptions made about my eating habits as you are about yours. I'll say it again: Not everyone who isn't on a low-carb plan is eating nothing but junk food and convincing themselves that it's healthy because it's low-fat.


All I've seen are people taking a not inconsiderable amount of time out of their busy day to try to help you over the initial hump. Come to think of it, perhaps they are superior given all the consideration they are showing you.

Perhaps they are, at that. Who am I to say?


If you want to lose weight, you have to compromise somewhere.

And I am. Believe me when I say I wouldn't be doing this otherwise. I guess that's the problem, right there. Non-adherence to the "low carbing is the one, only answer and it's easy and fun and we love it" party line does not appear to be welcome here.

I shouldn't have posted my objections to the "carb-eater-bashing", as it's clearly a part of the board atmosphere. I apologize. I just find it frustrating, and I'm cranky. Blame it on hormones. Or just think I'm a bitch. Whatever.


I was told by several people that questions were welcomed and that the board liked answering them, which is why I came to ask some. I am, however, resourceful enough to get them elsewhere, since they seem to ruffle feathers here.

With apologies and a farewell,

Jan

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Author: Adenovir Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5824 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 8:03 PM
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Jan,

I said...If you were eating lots of processed foods prior to low carbing, the cost shouldn't change much. If you were living on pasta, then costs will certainly go up...

You replied...See, this kind of comment is why, IMO, people are turned off by the whole "low carb revolution". Do you really think those are the only two choices?...In other words, all people who don't subscribe the whole low-carb fad are not stuffing their fat faces with Twinkies and loaves of french bread and saying "since it's low fat, I can eat it." For a bunch of people that don't like having your food choices criticized, I see an awful lot of "ooo, we're so superior" attitude here.

That's not what I was implying. I was just comparing two hypothetical situations, extremes perhaps, as an example. I didn't think for a second that you ate twinkies and snackwells all day. I was actually thinking of what many other people have told me about the cost of food. Many people who were former WW or generic low fat/low calorie dieters relied on staples such as pasta and bread. Others lived on "healthy choice" entree's and the like. These are simply two extremes on the cost continuum.

I think it's great that you take the time to eat "whole foods"; in the end, that's what a healthy diet boils down to, less processed stuff and more fruits/veggies/meats/whole grains. Most whole foods tend to be cheaper than the processed stuff. My suggestion to lower costs was to stick to the meat/fish and fruit/vegetable aisles in your food store. But since you are already doing that, you won't find much room to save any money if you are low-carbing.

Just trying to be helpful...

Adenovir



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Author: chkNYC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5825 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 8:08 PM
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All I've seen are people taking a not inconsiderable amount of time out of their busy day to try to help you over the initial hump

Have to say that I am just amazed at the number of people who have been willing - no, eager! - to reply and offer their thoughts, suggestions, empathy, etc.

And yet, each and every time someone posts with a suggestion or an explanation or offers links or just support or encouragement, here comes another rabbit punch.

Gotta say this to you, Jan. Either you want to do this or you don't. Your very first post, entitled "Convince me" was an indication (at least to me) that you didn't. A lot of people have devoted a lot of their valuable time in formulating responses to you.

At this point in time, I think it's time to say: Sh*t or get off the pot!!!!

Sorry if that sounds rude and crude but you are starting to sound like a troll. Absolutely nothing anyone says seems to be appreciated. If you don't want to LC, DON'T!!!! If you do, fine.

Ya gotta understand that while absolutely everyone here is willing to answer questions and offer suggestions, no one is here to make you do what you don't want to do.

I hope that you eventually find something that works for you.

Christina

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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5826 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 8:09 PM
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And I am. Believe me when I say I wouldn't be doing this otherwise. I guess that's the problem, right there. Non-adherence to the "low carbing is the one, only answer and it's easy and fun and we love it" party line does not appear to be welcome here.

I shouldn't have posted my objections to the "carb-eater-bashing", as it's clearly a part of the board atmosphere.


Well this is the low-carb board.






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Author: chkNYC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5827 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 8:11 PM
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Non-adherence to the "low carbing is the one, only answer and it's easy and fun and we love it" party line does not appear to be welcome here

I'm sorry but you did see the name of this board, didn't you? It's the "Low Carb Way of Life" Board. I have to say that I think your posts have been more then treated with all due politeness and respect.

Sorry that you didn't feel welcome here.

I wish you success in whatever eating plan you eventually decide is right for you.

Christina

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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5828 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 8:28 PM
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I'm sorry but you did see the name of this board, didn't you? It's the "Low Carb Way of Life" Board.

I don't think that eating low-carb means you have to be totally intolerant of other ideas, nor did I think that doing it means you have to love it. In many, many, many support-group type diet forums, expressing frustration at the negative aspects of being on a "food plan" is part of the culture.

If there's one thing I think we know for sure, it's that nobody really knows for sure how the whole food/nutrition/exercise thing works in the human body. As I said, it just seems to be part of this particular board's atmosphere to have a sort of disdainful attitude toward anybody not using this particular plan.


I wish you success in whatever eating plan you eventually decide is right for you.

FWIW, I'm not convinced that this eating plan won't work for me, and I'm determined to stick it out for awhile and see if it does. It's the board I'm swearing off, not the plan. :)


I didn't mean to offend anybody. I've emailed a couple of people privately, but in case I missed anybody - I honestly apologize (insert frustration at the difficulty of communicating sincerity in a written medium).


Jan

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Author: chkNYC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5830 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 8:32 PM
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I don't think that eating low-carb means you have to be totally intolerant of other ideas, nor did I think that doing it means you have to love it.

jan:

I don't think that anyone here is intolerant of other eating plans and can't see how any of the responses you've received here would lead you to say that.

I don't understand why you seem to resent the fact that some of us do LOVE it. No one said or even implied that you had to.

Christina

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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5831 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 8:42 PM
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Christina,

I have conceded defeat. I have privately and pubicly apologized for anything and everything that I said/wrote that bothered anybody. I'm not sure what else I can do.

I've had my feelings hurt enough for today. You would be doing me a personal favor if you'd let it go with my apology and promise not to bother the board anymore.

Thanks.



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Author: chkNYC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5832 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 8:58 PM
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I've had my feelings hurt enough for today. You would be doing me a personal favor if you'd let it go with my apology and promise not to bother the board anymore.

I apologize if I hurt your feelings - that wasn't my intent.

Christina

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5838 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/17/2003 10:26 PM
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"Trust me when I say this is not because I'm holding onto an idea that fat is bad for me - it just sounds gross. Two percent milk gags me. "

The fat is what suppresses your appetite. You will find that it satisfies you and you will eat much less. Overeating protein will turn into glucose, much like carbs. And when you eat less, you cost will go down. Hamburger is only $1 lb. for 30% fat. You can get a lot of butter into your scrambled eggs. If 2% milk really gags you, you will never be a successful low carber.


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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5846 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/18/2003 7:17 AM
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If 2% milk really gags you, you will never be a successful low carber.

Sure you can. Check out the Perricone Perscription. He sticks to fish and poultry primarily. The diet targets those concerned with wrinkles, but weight loss and cholesterol & BP reduction are also big side effects. He just doesn't market his plan for that. I looked my mom's copy over, but the idea of salmon in the morning, and red salmon at that, just plain makes me nauseous. IMO, farm raised salmon is so much tastier, (fattier,) than the Alaskan red.

Strangely enough, he also advocates no coffee, but tea is just fine with him. He maximizes consumption of antioxidants, and minimizes things that cause swelling, which coffee apparently does.

InParadise,
sipping on her morning mug of strong black coffee.



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Author: Chaconne Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5849 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/18/2003 9:18 AM
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I don't think that eating low-carb means you have to be totally intolerant of other ideas, nor did I think that doing it means you have to love it.

This reminded me of what a newcomer to Weight Watchers told the WW founder (Jean???) when she was told to eat cottage cheese (or yogurt, or whatever it was). "But I don't LIKE cottage cheese!" she said, whereupon Jean, the founder, replied, "I didn't tell you you have to Like it, I just told you you have to EAT it!"

Well, I can tell you, Jan that some of the low carb regimens are not for me, what with all the eggs and bacon for breakfast. Ugh. I do not LIKE eggs first thing in the morning (I eat quite a few omelettes for lunch, though) and the bacon thing bothers me because of the cancer causing chemicals in them. Nitrate free is available but its very costly.

I also do not like to eat a lot of cheese. It clogs me up. No, not the problem often discussed but my head, it clogs up my head.

Anyhow, I guess my point is that you take what works for you and leave the rest.

And this isn't really the place to challenge the prevailing views held here. People come here and post because this diet or "way of eating" either works for them or appeals to them, or both. Its a support group.

Hey, if it works and makes them happy, I say that's a good deal.

Andrea



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Author: DeltaDog2 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5864 of 30311
Subject: Re: Questions Date: 3/18/2003 2:16 PM
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I don't think that eating low-carb means you have to be totally intolerant of other ideas, nor did I think that doing it means you have to love it. In many, many, many support-group type diet forums, expressing frustration at the negative aspects of being on a "food plan" is part of the culture.

I don't know if you're still reading or not and I should probably let this go, but I kind of feel the need to defend the board here. I think this board is actually very tolerant. I've been on many other low carb boards where so much as the suggestion that you're doing anything BUT Atkins, or that you might ever want to taste bread again, gets you attacked. That just doesn't happen here. I do sometimes feel like people come here in a very defensive mode with the preconceived notions that “they must be a bunch of low carb evangelists” - and of course since they are looking to find that, they do. I'm not sure if that's the case with you or not, but it has happened before. I'll admit some of us have gotten a little feisty in the past when someone suggested that eating a bunch of candy after exercising was a good part of a low carb plan, because I think a lot of us felt it could really hurt people, but even then people kept a pretty open mind and at least read the poster's thoughts and opinions on it.

After reading this whole thread it looks to me more like you were looking for people to commiserate with. I have a lot of friends who are in various weight loss support type groups (Weight Watchers comes to mind) and a big part of it for them is getting together and complaining about their diet (sorry, complaining has a kind of negative connotation but I can't think of a better word to use here at the moment). Kind of like when I complain to DH about work or whatever and I don't want him to “solve” it for me, I just want some sympathy or a hug or something.

Anyway..I could be totally off base, but if that's what you are looking for, I honestly don't know that you'll find it here. Most of us are happy with the plan (whichever one we're on) overall, or at least we tend to focus on the positive aspects of it. Honestly I wouldn't do any plan unless I was feeling pretty positive about the majority of it, because you have to be able to live with the “maintenance” phase for life on any plan. Of course there are negatives for anything though - we do have some threads in the past about how to shop cheaper, new recipes in case you get bored, etc. I think on the whole we tend to focus on fixing the problem more than commiserating about it… I guess you could call that part of the board culture. I know that if I complain about a stall or my bad breath or something here, it's pretty likely I'm going to get a lot of suggestions to use FitDay, count carbs more closely, cut out certain foods, or brands of breath mints have the least carbs in them. It's something I appreciate, but I can understand how it could be frustrating if I was hoping for “<Hugs> I know, low carb sucks sometimes!” Some other boards are probably better for that – lowcarbfriends.com can be kind of “militant” sometimes but also has more of that sympathetic type of focus.

So… I rambled more than I should have (both in this and my previous posts), but I hope that helps some. Good luck to you.


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