No. of Recommendations: 16
"Is it the number of guns? Societal breakdown? Our culture of violence? Hollywood? While there’s probably a kernel of truth in all the usual suspects, a more likely culprit may be the policy implemented by our betters which determined that mental institutions were horror chambers that inhumanely incarcerated people simply because they didn’t conform to the standards society determined to be normal (how judgmental).

As is often the case with good intentions, the “deinstitutional movement,” initiated in 1964 and fully implemented in the 1970’s, the “solution” did not fix the root problem. There are still just as many crazy people in society, only now they live amongst us free to act out their psychotic fantasies: unless and until they confess or get caught.

A culture of political correctness that doesn’t allow you to call dangerous crazy people “insane” let alone lock them up, doesn’t wish you to point out that terrorists may be more dangerous than conservative “haters,” and wants the good guys to give up their guns to set a good example for the bad guys." --MOTUS
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[...]and wants the good guys to give up their guns to set a good example for the bad guys.

"Culture" doesn't necessarily want the "good guys" to give up their guns. The people should be able, however, to reasonably ask why trigger locks, assault-style weapons restrictions, gun show loopholes, safe storage requirements, and stronger registration and background check laws (which have been repeatedly and staunchly opposed by groups such as the NRA) can't even be a part of the conversation.

Many "good guys" I know -- including LEOs -- would welcome many, if not all of these regulations in one form or another.

I'm a gun owner, and I know I would.

Speck
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The people should be able, however, to reasonably ask why trigger locks, assault-style weapons restrictions, gun show loopholes, safe storage requirements, and stronger registration and background check laws (which have been repeatedly and staunchly opposed by groups such as the NRA) can't even be a part of the conversation.

Because, when seconds matter, the police are minutes away. Repeatedly diverting the conversation away from what matters to try to get controls on the people who don't need them empowers the parasites and predators.

I'm a gun owner

Righhhhhtttt.

1HF
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"Culture" doesn't necessarily want the "good guys" to give up their guns. The people should be able, however, to reasonably ask why trigger locks, assault-style weapons restrictions, gun show loopholes, safe storage requirements, and stronger registration and background check laws (which have been repeatedly and staunchly opposed by groups such as the NRA) can't even be a part of the conversation. Many "good guys" I know -- including LEOs -- would welcome many, if not all of these regulations in one form or another. I'm a gun owner, and I know I would." - Speck
----------------


So if someone comes in your home to rob you are you going to ask them to "wait a minute while I find the key and take this gun lock off my gun?"

And You don't mind paying yearly registration and licensing fees to own and keep your guns while they set up a new database that shows where all the guns are? You want more people to have access and knowlege to what and how many guns you own?

Art
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So if someone comes in your home to rob you are you going to ask them to "wait a minute while I find the key and take this gun lock off my gun?"

If you had small children in the home, you sure would keep guns under lock and key. It'd be irresponsible not to do so.
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A culture of political correctness that doesn’t allow you to call dangerous crazy people “insane” let alone lock them up…

Should the government be allowed to lock up people who have committed no crimes but been declared "dangerous"?

The Soviet Union was famous for that.

Interesting perspective to find on a libertarian board.
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A culture of political correctness that doesn’t allow you to call dangerous crazy people “insane” let alone lock them up…

Should the government be allowed to lock up people who have committed no crimes but been declared "dangerous"?

The Soviet Union was famous for that.

Interesting perspective to find on a libertarian board.
-----------------------------------------------------
If the parent is saying she has no control and the kid has a history of mental illness and the kid is exhibiting violent behavior then i think there should be a place where people like that should be watched in a secure environment. What's your perspective professor?
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If you had small children in the home, you sure would keep guns under lock and key. It'd be irresponsible not to do so.

But you sure don't need the government telling you that you have to. There's no conversation necessary there.

1HF
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"The people should be able, however, to reasonably ask why trigger locks, assault-style weapons restrictions, gun show loopholes, safe storage requirements, and stronger registration and background check laws (which have been repeatedly and staunchly opposed by groups such as the NRA) can't even be a part of the conversation.

1HF:"Because, when seconds matter, the police are minutes away. Repeatedly diverting the conversation away from what matters to try to get controls on the people who don't need them empowers the parasites and predators."

---

Right on.

In all 3 of the school shootings, your 'trigger locks' would have done nothing. The kids in CO were members of the family and likely knew where the keys to the trigger locks were....I mean is it that hard to 'borrow' the key ring, get a duplicate made, or even find the duplicate when you live in the same house? or if they are locked away......you simply take a big hammer and pound it open, or again, 'borrow' the key from your mother , father...or even maybe you have one as a member of the family? Silly......

Stronger background checks? The mom got the guns legally in CT, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the country.

You strike out there. Same for the father in CO>....he would have qualified and owned the guns. same for background checks. In all these cases, the people would have passed any background check. Remember, even in your 'worst case' scenario, your 'medical records privacy' guaranteed by the government and enforced by giant fines - would have prevented law enforcement from even knowing you were a homicidal maniac. (unless you had a criminal record).

So....in your entire paragraph you failed to list one thing that would have prevented the crime in AUrora, at VA Tech or in CT. Right?

ALl you would do is hassle 100 million legal gun owners - and not stop a single case of nut cases going off and taking out school kids.



t.
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"If you had small children in the home, you sure would keep guns under lock and key. It'd be irresponsible not to do so." - catherine


Yes, you are right. When my brother came by on his way from Northern Michigan back to South Georgia his 8 year old son was with him. I know how tempting guns are for boys so when my brother called me and told me he was on his way I unloaded both my guns and put the bullets away in a case and hid them and took both guns and put them up high on a shelf in our walk-in closet where my nephew couldn't see them. We keep our bedroom dark with coverings on the windows and the walk in closet is dark also so I figured it was less tempting for my nephew to wander into.

They didn't spend the night and were only there for a few hours but those few hours I kept my guns and shells hidden.

Art
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well if I had anyone in my house, visitors, or children of my own, I would keep them locked up somewhere in a room or closet with deadbolts. I do that with all valuables when I have a maid service come in....I don't want them stolen.

Speaking of which, I noticed yesterday that I'm missing at least 6 forks....they are stainless and I wonder if one of the maids stole them? strange.

I read in the paper that the mother had guns for self defense and liked target shooting. Never allowed her card club to have games at her house.....I'm thinking it's because of the azzbergers kid since he was there all the time. The article said she was a regular at a tavern where she enjoyed craft brews.....during the outings, her son had access to her hidey holes if she had them......if she had them locked up, I'm sure he could have found them. I know because I was a very curious kid with a lot of time on my hands and my parents didn't leave me alone very much....I was always shaking xmas presents and even peeling back the tape. :)

As it is, I keep my guns in my gunbag with ammo in my office which has a deadbolt on it. I really need to get a 9mm for self defense...just have a .22 for practice, .357 of my father's which I don't like and then my .32 which would be okay but a 9 mm would be better. the .357 can shoot 38's but still don't like revolver....too dang big!
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I really need to get a 9mm for self defense...just have a .22 for practice, .357 of my father's which I don't like and then my .32 which would be okay but a 9 mm would be better. the .357 can shoot 38's but still don't like revolver....too dang big!

Sounds like you need to look at a Glock. I don't have one, but they get high marks for reliability and ease of use.

1HF
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"You have no recommendations left for today. (explain this)"


It's 9:43 am and I'm all ready out of recommendations. How is that possible?

Sigh!

Art
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If you had small children in the home, you sure would keep guns under lock and key. It'd be irresponsible not to do so.

But you sure don't need the government telling you that you have to.

An important distinction, yes.
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If the parent is saying she has no control and the kid has a history of mental illness and the kid is exhibiting violent behavior then i think there should be a place where people like that should be watched in a secure environment. What's your perspective professor?

My perspective is that there are tens of millions of mentally disturbed people in this country, a small handful of whom act out violently.

If you trust your government to be able to weed out those people effectively without abusing that power your faith in the government is infinitely greater than mine.

What we should be doing is placing armed guards, metal detectors, and other security systems in every school in the country.

Any place where hundreds of attorneys, judges, or politicians gathered daily would have that level of security. It wouldn't even be given a second thought.

But with children we don't seem to care.
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My perspective is that there are tens of millions of mentally disturbed people in this country, a small handful of whom act out violently.

Psychiatric Drug Use Spreads
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020350320457704...

How Psychatric Drugs Made America Mad
http://www.alternet.org/story/155001/how_psychiatric_drugs_m...

Since the introduction of major tranquilizers like Thorazine and Haldol, “minor” tranquilizers like Miltown, Librium and Valium and the dozens of so-called “antidepressants” like Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil, tens of millions of unsuspecting Americans have become mired deeply, to the point of permanent disability, in the American mental “health” system.

Many of these innocents have actually been made “crazy” and often disabled by the use of – or the withdrawal from – these commonly prescribed, brain-altering and, for many, brain-damaging psychiatric drugs that have been, for many decades, cavalierly handed out like candy – often in untested and therefore unapproved combinations of two or more.

Trusting and unaware patients have been treated with potentially dangerous drugs by equally unaware but well-intentioned physicians who have been likewise trusting of the slick and obscenely profitable psychopharmaceutical drug companies aka, BigPharma, not to mention the Food and Drug Administration, an agency that is all-too-often in bed with the drug industry that they are supposed to be monitoring and regulating. The foxes of BigPharma have a close ally inside the henhouse.
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alchook:"What we should be doing is placing armed guards, metal detectors, and other security systems in every school in the country."


The gun didn't come through a door. Scratch that idea. Metal detector? GImme a break.

Armed guard...maybe...but in most schools, they are spread out, and the perp could knock off 30 kids in 60 seconds and the guard might be 2 minutes away.

I know my high school had at least 20 classrooms and if you watched the guard, you'd wait until he was as far away as possible.

And colleges? Face it...UT of Austin has 50,000 students, 24,000 faculty and staff..and covers square miles. You'd need 50 armed guards and that wouldn't stop a nutcase.....


t.
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The people should be able, however, to reasonably ask why trigger locks, assault-style weapons restrictions, gun show loopholes, safe storage requirements, and stronger registration and background check laws (which have been repeatedly and staunchly opposed by groups such as the NRA) can't even be a part of the conversation.

Trigger locks and safe storage are bogus arguments. Someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night, even if it took me only 30 seconds to unlock the safe (assuming its at my bedside), undo the trigger lock, load my weapon (even if its a magazine) is 30 seconds too long. Oh, wait mister robber/rapist/murderer while I retrieve my weapon.

If you're worried about "the children", then the best then to do is to teach the child about gun safety.

JLC
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If you're worried about "the children", then the best then to do is to teach the child about gun safety.

How would that have helped the 20 children at Sandy Hook?
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If you had small children in the home, you sure would keep guns under lock and key. It'd be irresponsible not to do so.

I grew up in a home with about 6 or 7 rifles, all kept in a gun cabinet. One of those decorative kinds, a display case more than anything else. Maybe only the 12 gauge was kept loaded. It was "locked" but I always knew where the key was, right on top. I was taught from the get go, DO NOT TOUCH. And I didn't.

A couple times my father and brother took me out in the woods while they shot tin cans. I didn't like the loud noise. So guns never did interest me, their was no mystery.

That's the responsible thing to do.

JLC
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Should the government be allowed to lock up people who have committed no crimes but been declared "dangerous"?

I can legally lock someone up now for 24 hours by filling out a PEC (Physician's Emergency Commitment), and with a consulting physician it can be extended to 72 hours. They've committed no crimes but can be/are deemed dangerous to themselves or others.

It is a slippery slope.

JLC
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I really need to get a 9mm for self defense...just have a .22 for practice, .357 of my father's which I don't like and then my .32 which would be okay but a 9 mm would be better. the .357 can shoot 38's but still don't like revolver....too dang big!

Sounds like you need to look at a Glock. I don't have one, but they get high marks for reliability and ease of use.

1HF
>>>>>>>>>
yep, Glock 19 Gen 3 or 4 540-580 bucks....it will be a purchase next yr. I bought the .22 this yr.
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If you're worried about "the children", then the best then to do is to teach the child about gun safety.

How would that have helped the 20 children at Sandy Hook?


It wouldn't.

Your quote is out of context. The post I was replying to was talking about how to keep guns out of the wrong hands. Trigger locks and safe storage only make it harder to people to get to their firearms in a timely manner. But the counter argument is to keep kids safe from the guns in the home. Thats where gun safety for kids come into play.

JLC
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My Daddy always had guns for protection, he carried money and kept strange hrs. and the business was in a bad neighborhood.

There were no trigger locks when I was growing up. The respect he taught me concerning guns was don't look down the barrel and also don't touch them or else I'd get a whipping. :) Yes Sir.

Now boys might be different and pick up guns to play with but I didn't do that. My brother picked it up when he was a tyke(before I was born) and shot a hole in the wall of the apt. There were no other problems that I was aware of though.

Then again, we didn't play violent video games as kids....all we had were cartoons on tv like Elmer Fudd, Bugs Bunny and Wile E. Coyote. :)

Video games, videos imprint on young minds, or minds in general but especially in the young, they are just forming....keep seeing the stuff over and over again, it builds connections in the brain and emotionally as well. I don't have a problem with video games with sports but killing people, animals, violence of any kind, that's crazy to let a child have that stuff. Might as well give him or her a flashy magazine with Violence 101 on it. It's very unhealthy at any age.

LD
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"If you're worried about "the children", then the best then to do is to teach the child about gun safety." - JLC


Or do like I did and get a vasectomy and don't have any. That works too.

Art
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"My brother picked it up when he was a tyke(before I was born) and shot a hole in the wall of the apt. There were no other problems that I was aware of though." luckydog


Holy crap that could have ended in disaster. If anyone had been on the other side of the wall they could have been whacked. There isn't much to sheetrock.

I had BB guns from the time I was quite young. I seem to remember shooting BB guns from like the 3rd grade, like maybe 8 years old? I got a 22 rifle in middle school. I shot the hell out of that gun. I used up box after box of shells. I also remember getting a real bow and arrows with field points in the 4th grade. I actually killed a jack rabbit with it in California. It was a little fiberglass Ben Pearson bow with like a 25 lb pull and about 6 field arrows. I had a lot of fun shooting and practicing with that bow.

In the fourth grade I traded a book of S&H greenstamps for a Schrade Walden Skinning knife - that I still own. It's actually a really good knife for skinning animals. I've used it to skin many a deer and hog and a few cows and sheep.

Art
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The gun didn't come through a door.

Guns don't kill people. Gunmen kill people. The gunman came through a door.

Metal detector? GImme a break.

Have a break.

I did my surgery training in Detroit at the peak of its violent days. Metal detectors were pretty standard in schools there, as were armed guards. The people who lived there told me the kids loved it. School was the one place they could feel safe.

Armed guard...maybe...but in most schools, they are spread out, and the perp could knock off 30 kids in 60 seconds and the guard might be 2 minutes away.

Have them at every entrance. That's what they do at courthouses, right? Again, if you had lawyers, judges, or politicians gathered in one place security wouldn't be an issue.

And colleges?

No one's obligated to attend college. It's strictly voluntary.

Society mandates that children attend school.

I maintain that if the government requires children to show up at a school it has an obligation to provide them with the same level of protection it provides its politicians.

Radical, I know.
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"Society mandates that children attend school."


Actually, no...in this case, the perp was home schooled, leading to his isolation.....


====

and no...this perp didn't go through a door.......he broke in through a window...shot it out......


And most burglars don't go in through the front door or back door.maybe in through the roof......or through a connecting store....or simply back a truck into the front window, or break down the door.
By the time you get there, they are in and out.


in 2 minutes all the kids would have been dead..by the time a security guard would have gotten to that end of the building.



t.
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and no...this perp didn't go through a door.......he broke in through a window...shot it out…

Well, I don't know all the particulars, and I did just read that no one is actually sure how he got into the school. The current thought is that the windows may have been shot out by the police.

And I'm just throwing out ideas here. I certainly don't want to try to pretend that my knowledge of security matches that of someone who knows the term "perp."

So if you're telling me that providing a modicum of security to elementary school students somehow defies the laws of physics, or that, unlike any other structure in the universe, a school can't be designed to discourage wanton lunatics from just strolling in with a small arsenal and shooting the place to pieces, I guess I'll have to take your word for it.
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Because, when seconds matter, the police are minutes away. Repeatedly diverting the conversation away from what matters to try to get controls on the people who don't need them empowers the parasites and predators.

A federal LEO I know quite well showed me his bedside combo gun safe that he can open in under 3 seconds -- in the dark. They also have biometric models that only take a fingerprint. Locking one's guns away so that they're only -- but readily -- available to those who own them goes a long way towards keeping them out of the wrong hands while honoring the Second Amendment.

"What matters" is talking about responsible gun ownership and better mental health access and services.

"What matters" is making sure that the shopping mall I take my kid to (I live 10 minutes from Clackamas Town Center) is reasonably safe.

"What matters" is my daughters' safety in their classrooms.

If only it were as easy to get access to meaningful and affordable mental health as it is to buy a gun...

(I'm a gun owner)

Righhhhhtttt.


They ain't sexy, but I own a New England Firearms Pardner-SBI 12 gauge shotgun and a S&W 25-5 .45 Colt revolver.

Or if it's just easier for you to believe that all us "libs" just hate guns, be my guest.

But we'll never get anywhere until we can have a grownup discussion about this stuff and quit assuming stuff about each other.

Cheers,

Speck
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I've seen the biometric gun safes at the local range ....small, can put jewelry and other stuff in them along with guns. Pretty nifty and not too expensive either. Very portable.

here's some from Cabela's

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/browse/shooting-gun-storage-g...
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I've seen the biometric gun safes at the local range ....small, can put jewelry and other stuff in them along with guns. Pretty nifty and not too expensive either. Very portable.

here's some from Cabela's


Those biometric units look pretty sweet. The safe I saw was (I think) the Gun Vault 2000 non-biometric version, which looks to be $100 - $150 cheaper than the sexy biometric models, but hey, I've been more nice than naughty this year, Santa ;-)

Thanks for the link -- I also love Cabela's.

Speck
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I also love Cabela's.
--------

I thought they just sold clothes and stuff. Who knew?

Do they have tiny taser containers?

arrete
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I've been to the Cabela's in Dallas (Allen) and in Austin (south of Austin).

That place is ABSOLUTELY incredible for the outdoorsy person. Their stores are IMMENSE....Walmart is in awe.

And their gun collection?? They have a museum in the store for guns.

They have racks and racks of rifles you can go up to and test out guns (they're locked of course), but it's really, really cool.

And their gun counter??? Full of pistols and rifles??? About 30 yards long.....no joke.

Place is a Xanadu for gun lovers....
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Place is a Xanadu for gun lovers....

The first Cabelas opened in 1961 in Chappell, Nebraska and its flagship store today is in Sidney, 131 miles due south from Chadron.

"The 85,000-square-foot (7,900 m2)[4] store just off Interstate 80 on the southern edge of Sidney, Nebraska illustrates some of the elements. The grounds include a 3½ acre pond and two bronze double-life-size bull elk on one side of the building. Inside, moss rock pillars hold trophy elks of huge proportions. A 27-foot (8 m)-tall replica of a mountain is framed in a 48-foot (15 m) mural of blue sky. The mountain is covered with 40 lifelike game trophies and features a waterfall that splits at the base into two ponds. Suspended in the air between the entryway and the mountain is a flock of taxidermic Canada geese."
--Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabela%27s

There's a history and a video of Dick and Mary Cabela talking about starting the store and showing some of the wildlife displays at this link:
http://www.cabelas.com/content.jsp?pageName=history&WTz_...

As far as I know they still live in the Chappell/Sidney area out here in western Nebraska. The wildlife displays there are amazing. You can turn it into a weekend and go as a tourist--there are camping facilities right there if you don't want to stay in one of the many motels close by. Quite a successful business venture. Revenue (2010):2.7 billion; Employees (2010): 14,800; No. of stores (2012): 40 --figures from Wikipedia

Cabela's Gun Library:
http://www.cabelas.com/gun-library.shtml
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I know we can't use the "H" word here.

So for you history buffs, one of the first things that a certain German dictator,(who was democratically elected in 1933,) did was outlaw gun ownership by private German citizens.
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"Culture" doesn't necessarily want the "good guys" to give up their guns. The people should be able, however, to reasonably ask why trigger locks, assault-style weapons restrictions, gun show loopholes, safe storage requirements, and stronger registration and background check laws (which have been repeatedly and staunchly opposed by groups such as the NRA) can't even be a part of the conversation.


You're asking for a mix of

(a) things pretty much pointless ('assault style weapons' means what, guns that look scarier than other guns? so a functionally identical but prettier-looking gun would be okay?)

(b) things that make life difficult for the good guys without hindering the bad guys or offering any significant improvement in general safety

(c) things that directly give the government the power to strip away a right explicitly protected by the Constitution, or at least to keep a list of people prepared to resist outrageously oppressive government - which would be extremely convenient for such a government
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" The people should be able, however, to reasonably ask why trigger locks, assault-style weapons restrictions, gun show loopholes, safe storage requirements, and stronger registration and background check laws (which have been repeatedly and staunchly opposed by groups such as the NRA) can't even be a part of the conversation."


1) Trigger locks? IN all three cases recently, it was either a PEERSONALLY owned gun or a family owned gun. In which case, the perp would have access to the kes for the trigger locks. useless deterrent, other than to cause 100 million Americans inconvenience. And of course, you'd have to have 100,000 jackboot police to make sure every gun was locked up when not used. Just like they go around checking every single car parked across the country because some kid might come and steal it and kill someone or commit a crime, right?

2) stronger registration? In both CO and VA tech and CT, the guns were legally bought and kept. All in 3 cases, you had 'clean' people buying the guns. So that would not have done zippo to stop any of those 3.

And what, you are going demand $5000 background checks including interviewing everyone you have ever known, ala security clearance, to own and buy a gun? really? For 100 million Americans........when 0.0000000003% go nuts? We can't keep out a million tons of pot each year .....we can't keep out hundreds of tons of cocaine. our policing forces are powerless to stop murder and rape in prisons.....in the most 'strict' environment in the world. What makes you think by this silliness you'll stop ...say....drunk driving that kills 10,000 a year? You can't even stop that....so all you would do is hassle law abiding citizens...


those silly requirements SHOULD be opposed. At every step of the way.


t.
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I know we can't use the "H" word here.

So for you history buffs, one of the first things that a certain German dictator,(who was democratically elected in 1933,) did was outlaw gun ownership by private German citizens.
isawbones

>>>>>>
oh why the heck not? I did in a previous post after comments from Feinstein and Bloomberg concerning gun control..I posted a link to wiki on 1938(I think) laws which banned Jews from the manufacture and ownership of guns and ammo.

I've fired those machine guns and assault rifles at the range and I don't like them. Too much fire power for me and they are loud as chit even with silicone earplugs and muffs! Some women in the club like them but for the above stated reasons I don't, I don't consider them fun. What is fun is a .19 rifle...quiet, accurate, plinker and varmint killer if that's what you like to do I don't like shotguns either but man alive! I can see the deterrent of ne'er do well just hearing me rack it back. :) Big boom!!!

I have a concern about these types of weapons but think if they banned them, it's a slippery slope down to total gun ban.
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They also have biometric models that only take a fingerprint.

IF they work anything like the "drug safe" at our hospital then they aren't worth crap. Great idea, short on execution.

There have been many a time where I'm trying to get the machine to scan my fingerprint so I can get drugs out for an emergency c-section and it has taken me 2 minutes or more (and it often feels like an hour). Get good complete fingerprint on scan, won't recognize. Clean scanner, clean finger, still nothing. And then on some random try, bingo. Meanwhile baby and momma are circling the drain.

We "joke" about seconds count when help is minutes away, this is a real life scenario I deal with almost daily.

I'd hate to have my firearm in one of those safes when someone was breaking into my house.

JLC
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"There have been many a time where I'm trying to get the machine to scan my fingerprint so I can get drugs out for an emergency c-section and it has taken me 2 minutes or more (and it often feels like an hour). Get good complete fingerprint on scan, won't recognize. Clean scanner, clean finger, still nothing. And then on some random try, bingo." - JLC


I've had a similar experience with our safety deposit box at our bank. It's a hand scanner. I've got cracked fingers and some kind of nasty fungus or something that grows on my hands and feet (and yes I've been to the doctor numerous times to try and get rid of it) and so my hands have random cracks and spots on them so the scanner has a difficult time recognizing my hand print. It's a pain in the butt and I don't like it.

Art
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IF they work anything like the "drug safe" at our hospital then they aren't worth crap. Great idea, short on execution.

It's unfortunate that you seem to have a crappy drug safe at work. However, picking one unit at random from Amazon shows an overwhelming number of 5 Star ratings for one:

http://www.amazon.com/LockSAF-PBS-001-LockSafe-Biometric-Pis...

And, as I mentioned, the model my federal LEO friend showed me was a straight up combo safe which he can open in the dark in under 3 seconds. It's akin to this model:
http://www.amazon.com/Gunvault-GV1000D-Mini-Vault-Deluxe/dp/...

If you don't have kids in the house and you're sure you can get to your gun before a bad guy does, maybe you don't need one. But I can think of many recent cases where unfettered access to someone else's gun has led to needless tragedy.

Speck
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TMFSpeck wrote: If you don't have kids in the house and you're sure you can get to your gun before a bad guy does, maybe you don't need one. But I can think of many recent cases where unfettered access to someone else's gun has led to needless tragedy.

Then medicine cabinets should have the same locks because the people who commit these heinous acts were all on psychotropic drugs when they committed the act.
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If you're worried about "the children", then the best then to do is to teach the child about gun safety.

How would that have helped the 20 children at Sandy Hook?


It wouldn't. It would deal with accidental shootings by children at home - which is a far less serious hazard than, say, bathtubs or bicycles.

What would have helped the 27 people (including the principal, school psychologist, two teachers, two other adult employees, and the perpetrator) who died at Sandy Hook Elementary:

a) Get people who intend to commit crimes to obey the gun laws (anyone see a problem with this?)

b) Establish sensible provisions for carefully-scrutinized confinement of mentally deranged people who are a threat to the community (but doing this while also properly respecting individual liberty is, at the most optimistic, walking a pretty fine line - some people think there's a fundamental conflict between the two concepts, and they aren't obviously and definitively wrong)

c) Completely ban guns, and successfully enforce such laws - of course I do mean completely, as in the police and military can't have guns either because those guns might be stolen and fed into the criminal market. (We've had such fabulous success at banning other things, like alcohol and marijuana...)

d) Repeal the "gun-free zone" laws and instead establish an expectation that at any given school a significant fraction of faculty/staff will be carrying. With appropriate permits where the law requires them. (Not ALL faculty/staff, because some wonderful teachers have physical issues that would make it pointless or even a bad idea for them to carry - plus, unlike a so-called "liberal", I actually support diversity of ideas in schools, so would want to leave room for teachers who philosophically object to carrying firearms.)
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So if you're telling me that providing a modicum of security to elementary school students somehow defies the laws of physics, or that, unlike any other structure in the universe, a school can't be designed to discourage wanton lunatics from just strolling in with a small arsenal and shooting the place to pieces, I guess I'll have to take your word for it.

The problem is not that schools CAN'T BE designed for security, the problem is that they (mostly) WEREN'T.

I'm thinking back to my high school's layout. Hallways and doors. Start with a square for the main hallways. Put the main entrance in the middle of the south side - one door, steady use. Knock another door at the south end of the east side, and put the library a bit outside that door - two more doors in steady use, plus two emergency exits from the library. Cut out the north half of the west side, and put a door in steady use at each of the cuts. Extend the south wall a bit to the west, and put the old gym there - two more doors, one in steady use in the winter. On the north side of the old gym are two classrooms, one accessible from the west hallway and also with an outside door that sees occasional use; the other is underneath it and accessible ONLY from outside, so that's another door that sees steady use. Extend the north-side hallway to the east a good bit, adding three more doors but only one (back of the cafeteria) sees frequent use or is often left open. Now to the northwest are two other buildings: the shop building (main entry door, three shop classrooms and one other classroom each with its own outside door - the other-classroom door gets frequent use, the others are frequently propped open in good weather) and the field house (main entry door toward school, door toward football field, multiple doors toward parking lot).

That's 12 doors in steady use plus four that are frequently left open and about six others.

For about 600 students, grades 7-12.

By the way, a student walking between the main building and the field house will spend some time in an area almost completely out of sight of any windows - one classroom in the shop building - and quite close to the parking lot.

Security? Obviously not part of the design.
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The problem is not that schools CAN'T BE designed for security, the problem is that they (mostly) WEREN'T.

My son's high school, located in one of the ghetto areas of Long Beach, CA, was safe, but it wasn't built that way for that reason in 1895.

Long Beach Poly bills itself as "The School of the Century" and "The Home of Scholars and Champions" and it's a "California Distinguished School." Poly has produced more athletic talent than any other high school in America. Billie Jean King, Tony Gwynn and 38 NFL players are Poly graduates. At least one administrator says that kids who "want a look" from college recruiters generally congregate to Poly. Rapper Snoop Dogg actually graduated from Poly, as did actress Cameron Diaz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Beach_Polytechnic_High_Sch...

It's built like a citadel, with an open courtyard in the middle and four buildings forming a square around it. Each entry was guarded; once the students were inside, they couldn't leave without someone taking them out with proper ID.

Entry was allowed during a specific period in the morning only; otherwise, you had to go to the office for entry. After closing bell rang, anyone could get out.

All the windows have bars, so the CT gunman would've been able to shoot out the windows but could not have gotten in.
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Security? Obviously not part of the design.

What can't be retro-fitted?

The White House was built in the early 18th century. The Capitol was completed during the Civil War, at a time when so little attention was paid to security that a crazed gunman was able to walk into the President's theater box and put a bullet in his head and then leave unmolested.

Yet I doubt a 20 year-old could walk into either place today carrying a rifle and a couple pistols.

To paraphrase Tom Hanks in Volunteers, it's not that we can't do this. We don't want to.
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I read in the paper that the mother had guns for self defense and liked target shooting. Never allowed her card club to have games at her house.....I'm thinking it's because of the azzbergers kid since he was there all the time. The article said she was a regular at a tavern where she enjoyed craft brews.....during the outings, her son had access to her hidey holes if she had them......if she had them locked up, I'm sure he could have found them. I know because I was a very curious kid with a lot of time on my hands and my parents didn't leave me alone very much....I was always shaking xmas presents and even peeling back the tape. :)


My dad told me that when he was a kid, my grandfather owned a gun that he kept locked up in a desk. When my dad was only six years old, however, he found the key to the desk, unlocked it, took the gun out, and actually figured out how to take the gun apart and put it back together again. Of course, my grandfather was furious when he found out, and my dad got punished severely.

I don't know why my dad's mechanical abilities didn't rub off on me, but they didn't.

Another story my dad told me is that once when my grandfather was beating him really badly, my grandmother went to the desk, got the gun, and ran after him to get him to stop. Later my grandfather asked her, "What did you think you were doing, woman?" To which my grandmother replied, "I was only trying to scare you."
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My perspective is that there are tens of millions of mentally disturbed people in this country


And they all seem to eventually find me somehow. I seem to attract them like flies on you-know-what. Which is one reason I'm much more reclusive than I used to be.
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