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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1949337  
Subject: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 11:30 AM
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I've been saying for months that Obama and his supporters can't avoid discussing the issues forever. Last night was the end of the road for what his campaign has been up to thus far.

For me, Chris Matthews' angry meltdown on Maddow's show last night summed it up:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/watch-chris-matthews-epic-meltdow...

“This tonight wasn’t an MSNBC debate, was it? It just wasn’t,” he said.

Indeed it wasn't an MSNBC debate. In an MSNBC debate, Lehrer would have asked Romney questions like Why do Republicans hate blacks so much? and Why are so many Republicans in favor of raping women? and Republicans just can't seem to connect with younger voters and the poor. Is it because your party is old and out of touch?

And so on. Those aren't real questions. They don't ask about real issues. Voters want to see leadership and visions for the future, not 24/7 gotchas. Obama fell flat on his face last night because he wasn't prepared. Let's expand on that point.

In liberal bubbles "debate" happens with a either a pinata posing as a Republican or you find a live one and tie him to a chair. Bound and gagged. Then the left can whale on the guy and declare victory. That's an "MSNBC debate" and the main reason why that entire network is a joke.

In the real world, you have to face a real live Republican who gets to counter the bullcrap. You don't get a debate moderator to bail you out - as Maddow was clearly expecting Lehrer to bail Obama out. No. You have to deliver on your vision, on your ideas. Romney was listening to Obama and directly addressing what Obama actually said. Obama was going through his strawmen and talking points. It didn't work.

Obama clearly wasn't prepared to debate a real live Republican on *any issue*. Nothing. All he had were his campaign talking points and his own perceived awesomeness. The plan was simple: stroll in there, give the talking points, let Lehrer ask Romney uncomfortable questions, and walk out. But go back and look at Obama's facial expressions as the debate runs on. At first he's the calm and cool Obama. About 15 minutes in his eyes get wider. About 40 minutes in he's looking at the floor and is clearly flustered. Romney broke him last night.

So, liberals: You can't hoist up your strawmen, your race cards, your rape accusations, your throw grandma down the stairs, your 47%ers, whatever, the entire campaign. You have to put in the work. Romney's been doing the work. And getting better. You and your guy? Living in a bubble convinced of your own greatness.

That's a recipe for a beatdown, and Obama got his in a big way last night. Dennis Miller put it thusly, "Obama better hope that a kicked ass is covered under Obamacare".

On to Ryan/Biden. Unfortunately for you, this debate will be even worse. Fortunately for you, there are zero positive expectations for Joe Biden.
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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821086 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 12:31 PM
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For me, Chris Matthews' angry meltdown on Maddow's show last night summed it up

For me as well. And why, you ask? Because Obama failed to say any of the things he could have to counter Romney's BS. The only points of Romney's statements that represented fact were those that kill him in public opinion poles, to wit:
1. Revenues are off the table for deficit reduction
2. Medicare will be a voucher system
3. PBS? Libraries? Schools? Eff 'em.

So enjoy Romney's "win," pyrrhic though it may be. Because in the end all his performance represented was an attempt to pull off a grand shaking of the Etch-a-Sketch, all while walking out to the tip of the limb that is being held out for him by the Tea Party Caucus.

And we're seeing today that the overwhelming response to last night's debate is to call him out on that.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821089 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 12:36 PM
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"1. Revenues are off the table for deficit reduction
2. Medicare will be a voucher system
3. PBS? Libraries? Schools? Eff 'em."

I see your being dishonest again

1. Revenues are off the table during the recession, Romney said revenues will come in when economy grows and more people get back to work, so Romney did say revenues are part of the equation, just in a more responsible way.

2. Romney said people will have options and choice between (voucher) or (traditional) which ever the individual chooses.

3. Romney said PBS yes, but nothing about effin'g libraries and schools.

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821103 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 12:54 PM
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Hey MV

I think you, like me, are Democrats because we are populists.

Romney went to Obama's left. Sure it is BS. But he could go to the left without offending has base because obama ahs moved so far right.
In the end, Obama ahs had four years to sell a populist approach, and he has moved with trepidation when bold action and rhetoric was required.

Last night Romney, while using nothingbut BS, was able to get to Obama's left and appear that he, Romney, is the populist.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821107 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 12:56 PM
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"Last night Romney, while using nothingbut BS"

Actually Factcheck has declared Obama the winner of the BS last night, but don't let that interfere with your blind partisan one way street agenda.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821109 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 12:59 PM
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For me as well. And why, you ask? Because Obama failed to say any of the things he could have to counter Romney's BS. The only points of Romney's statements that represented fact were those that kill him in public opinion poles, to wit:
1. Revenues are off the table for deficit reduction
2. Medicare will be a voucher system
3. PBS? Libraries? Schools? Eff 'em.


Sorry, but this where left wingers get into trouble.
You're not debating a bound and gagged Republican who's tied to a chair. Obama had to debate a REAL LIVE Republican, who can actually answer charges and make his own attacks.

1. Revenues are off the table for deficit reduction
Mitt talked about this. He doesn't want to raise taxes, BUT, what he'll do is close loopholes. If the Obama campaign really knew anything about Romney - and it's evident they don't, nor do his supporters - the government has more ways than taxes to raise revenue. Mitt raised fees as governor of Mass. He'll do it as President. Will that be enough? I don't know. Neither does Obama.

2. Medicare will be a voucher system<?i>
You are SO making this too easy. Have you looked at Mitt's plan? It's obvious you haven't. Again, this is what happens when you debate the bound and gagged Republican instead of the real thing.

It was Ryan's plan that killed Medicare for younger people. Romney's plan leaves traditional Medicare as an option. It's right there on his website. You folks are again debating your own strawmen. If you're going to come back with, "Well, Medicare will die without all those extra people in it..." then 1) you're tacitly admitting that Medicare really isn't that efficient and 2) that it's in trouble anyway.

I'll have that debate with you all day, every day. It won't end well for you or for Obama.

3. PBS? Libraries? Schools? Eff 'em.

Mitt said he wasn't going to cut schools. Again. You have to debate the actual candidate. No offense, but PA left wingers need to get out more. You gives rail at how stupid/evil/ignorant/ill informed conservatives are because you never actually go out and talk to one. But speaking for PA conservatives, to a man and a woman we ALL know what you're going to say before you say it. Why? We're here. Talking to you. Reacting to what you say.

You guys react to what your prejudices tell you we're saying. Case in point. Obama kept claiming Romney was going to issue a $5 trillion dollar tax cut for the rich or something. He pulled that out of his a$$. Romney said, no, that's not my plan, and Obama...couldn't adjust his talking points. At all. He had to keep going with his prepared script.

It was like watching a football team keep running the same play over and over again. Coach Obama kept calling for a draw play out of the eye right up the middle. Coach Romney said, put 8 men in the box and dared Obama to go over the top. Obama kept at it. Romney dialed up a blitz. Obama kept calling the same play. On and on.

As far as cutting federal funding for PBS and NPR, good luck making that argument to voters in Ohio and VA in the face of trillion dollar deficits.

And we're seeing today that the overwhelming response to last night's debate is to call him out on that.

The overwhelming response today is, "Obama got his a$$ kicked last night".

Team Obama's first move? Fire John Kerry. Kerry can't play John Kerry much less Mitt Romney.

Team Obama's second move? Time to start actually running for President of the United States instead of auditioning for a slot on MSNBC.


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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821110 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 1:00 PM
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With better formatting:
For me as well. And why, you ask? Because Obama failed to say any of the things he could have to counter Romney's BS. The only points of Romney's statements that represented fact were those that kill him in public opinion poles, to wit:
1. Revenues are off the table for deficit reduction
2. Medicare will be a voucher system
3. PBS? Libraries? Schools? Eff 'em.


Sorry, but this where left wingers get into trouble.
You're not debating a bound and gagged Republican who's tied to a chair. Obama had to debate a REAL LIVE Republican, who can actually answer charges and make his own attacks.

1. Revenues are off the table for deficit reduction
Mitt talked about this. He doesn't want to raise taxes, BUT, what he'll do is close loopholes. If the Obama campaign really knew anything about Romney - and it's evident they don't, nor do his supporters - the government has more ways than taxes to raise revenue. Mitt raised fees as governor of Mass. He'll do it as President. Will that be enough? I don't know. Neither does Obama.

2. Medicare will be a voucher system
You are SO making this too easy. Have you looked at Mitt's plan? It's obvious you haven't. Again, this is what happens when you debate the bound and gagged Republican instead of the real thing.

It was Ryan's plan that killed Medicare for younger people. Romney's plan leaves traditional Medicare as an option. It's right there on his website. You folks are again debating your own strawmen. If you're going to come back with, "Well, Medicare will die without all those extra people in it..." then 1) you're tacitly admitting that Medicare really isn't that efficient and 2) that it's in trouble anyway.

I'll have that debate with you all day, every day. It won't end well for you or for Obama.

3. PBS? Libraries? Schools? Eff 'em.

Mitt said he wasn't going to cut schools. Again. You have to debate the actual candidate. No offense, but PA left wingers need to get out more. You gives rail at how stupid/evil/ignorant/ill informed conservatives are because you never actually go out and talk to one. But speaking for PA conservatives, to a man and a woman we ALL know what you're going to say before you say it. Why? We're here. Talking to you. Reacting to what you say.

You guys react to what your prejudices tell you we're saying. Case in point. Obama kept claiming Romney was going to issue a $5 trillion dollar tax cut for the rich or something. He pulled that out of his a$$. Romney said, no, that's not my plan, and Obama...couldn't adjust his talking points. At all. He had to keep going with his prepared script.

It was like watching a football team keep running the same play over and over again. Coach Obama kept calling for a draw play out of the eye right up the middle. Coach Romney said, put 8 men in the box and dared Obama to go over the top. Obama kept at it. Romney dialed up a blitz. Obama kept calling the same play. On and on.

As far as cutting federal funding for PBS and NPR, good luck making that argument to voters in Ohio and VA in the face of trillion dollar deficits.

And we're seeing today that the overwhelming response to last night's debate is to call him out on that.

The overwhelming response today is, "Obama got his a$$ kicked last night".

Team Obama's first move? Fire John Kerry. Kerry can't play John Kerry much less Mitt Romney.

Team Obama's second move? Time to start actually running for President of the United States instead of auditioning for a slot on MSNBC.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821112 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 1:08 PM
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1. Revenues are off the table during the recession, Romney said revenues will come in when economy grows and more people get back to work, so Romney did say revenues are part of the equation, just in a more responsible way.

This point needs to made over and over. Romney crushed Obama on small business. It's clear Obama doesn't know the first thing about them or how they work. It's a mistake that democrats make over and over. You could just feel the audience nodding their heads as Romney walked through how a small business would benefit from lower rates. Obama did his usual song and dance routine equating tax credits (what he issues) vs. tax cuts (which are actual cuts in rates).

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821113 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 1:16 PM
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Sorry, but this where left wingers get into trouble.
You're not debating a bound and gagged Republican who's tied to a chair. Obama had to debate a REAL LIVE Republican, who can actually answer charges and make his own attacks.
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

You can hear their keyboards clicking, a 100 percent pure indicator that PA liberals are being dishonest.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821167 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 3:09 PM
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3. Romney said PBS yes, but nothing about effin'g libraries and schools.

__________

That's not true...he actually mentioned that with all the money blown on Solyndra and other failed loans to campaign donors, Obama could have funded X number of teachers (I forgot the number he said).

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Author: ModernViking Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821192 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 3:56 PM
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You're not debating a bound and gagged Republican who's tied to a chair. Obama had to debate a REAL LIVE Republican, who can actually answer charges and make his own attacks.

No, but Romney got to debate a bound and gagged Obama. Obama leveled no charges of any substance and responded to attacks with a "meh."


He doesn't want to raise taxes, BUT, what he'll do is close loopholes.

He'll close the loopholes that primarily benefit the middle class. The gaping hole in our tax code that allows trillions of dollars to disappear into personal stockpiles of unused cash & assets (where they continue to generate more cash & assets similarly sheltered from taxation) will remain wide open.

What about oil subsidies, Mitt? What about cap gains tax rate? How about farm subsidies? What about bonuses and compensation via stock options? Instead he's going to close the deficit by eliminating the mortgage interest deduction, repealing consumer protections, and turning over our public lands to the resource extractors. And the dummies are calling this a plan.


Mitt said he wasn't going to cut schools. Again.

When Mitt says he's not going to cut funding for schools that means he's going to gut the public school system and put that money up for vouchers. This is conservative fiscal doctrine for time immemoriam. There is all the evidence in the world to suggest that a Romney administration would be the last, greatest wealth transfer from the middle class into the new American ruling class, with all the "Water the Tree of Liberty" goofballs leading the team cheer.


Team Obama's second move? Time to start actually running for President of the United States instead of auditioning for a slot on MSNBC.

If last night is the "new Obama", then he would be lucky to get a gig as a recurring guest on Granholme's show on Current.

It was a massively disappointing performance for anyone who is sick to their stomach of opportunistic cowboy conservatives (W and Saint Ronnie come to mind), blubbering, squishy toadies (Boehner, Hatch, McConnell et al), and dogmatic reactionaries (the Jim DeMints, Sarah Palins, and the other BSCs) that are actually running the 21st Century Republican Freak Show.

Obama's silence meant the absence of a voice for the people. Cause it sure as hell isn't Mitt.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821200 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 4:07 PM
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He'll close the loopholes that primarily benefit the middle class.

Sorry but the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center has it otherwise:

“This is targeting high-income people and would hit them pretty hard,” said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center in Washington.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-03/romney-17-000-deduc...

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821202 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 4:09 PM
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"What about oil subsidies"

As Mitt pointed out, Obama gave 50 years of oil subsidies in one pop 90 billion to his buddies in green energy (Solyndra) that went belly up.

And Mitt said these subsidies that are 100 years old, are on the table, he may get rid of them.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821206 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 4:15 PM
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No, but Romney got to debate a bound and gagged Obama. Obama leveled no charges of any substance and responded to attacks with a "meh."

Really? So Obama was standing there in true MSNBC fashion answering questions likes, "So, Governor Romney. This video of yours shows you hating on the 47% who don't pay taxes. Don't you think that's a problem for you?"

Sorry, but no. Lehrer let them talk. Good for him. He set up the issue framework and let them go at it head to head. It's not his fault or Mitt's fault that Obama showed up to the game unprepared.

He'll close the loopholes that primarily benefit the middle class. The gaping hole in our tax code that allows trillions of dollars to disappear into personal stockpiles of unused cash & assets (where they continue to generate more cash & assets similarly sheltered from taxation) will remain wide open.

I won't address your mischaracterization of stocks and assets (because that's a longer post and will take a while), but did you listen to the debates? Mitt said, "Pick a number - $20, $25,000 and we'll work on it". Do you have $25 large in deductions? We don't.

You're doing the leftist bubble thing again. You've assigned "Romney position = bad" in the logical structure in your brain. He could have said $1 million and you wouldn't have heard it. This is what happens when you debate in a bubble and can't fathom that some middle ground can be had by your opponent.

What about oil subsidies, Mitt? What about cap gains tax rate? How about farm subsidies? What about bonuses and compensation via stock options? Instead he's going to close the deficit by eliminating the mortgage interest deduction, repealing consumer protections, and turning over our public lands to the resource extractors. And the dummies are calling this a plan.

What are Obama's answers to the above? It's amusing watching you guys allow Obama to hand wave but you all demand uber-specifics from Mitt. He even covered that, too; I'll bet you don't know where or how. Obama sure didn't.

When Mitt says he's not going to cut funding for schools that means he's going to gut the public school system and put that money up for vouchers. This is conservative fiscal doctrine for time immemoriam. There is all the evidence in the world to suggest that a Romney administration would be the last, greatest wealth transfer from the middle class into the new American ruling class, with all the "Water the Tree of Liberty" goofballs leading the team cheer.

Vouchers. Yeah, only conservatives support vouchers. Do you know who Michelle Rhee is? And are you familiar with Arne Duncan's past statements on vouchers?

In any case, thanks for conceding the point. Your real issue is not that Mitt's going to cut education funding. Your real issue is that Mitt won't direct money to the teachers' unions. Say, how is dealing with Mayor Rahm working out for them?

One more time: get out of the democrat bubble.

It was a massively disappointing performance for anyone who is sick to their stomach of opportunistic cowboy conservatives (W and Saint Ronnie come to mind), blubbering, squishy toadies (Boehner, Hatch, McConnell et al), and dogmatic reactionaries (the Jim DeMints, Sarah Palins, and the other BSCs) that are actually running the 21st Century Republican Freak Show.

Obama's silence meant the absence of a voice for the people. Cause it sure as hell isn't Mitt.


LOL. Again and again you make my point. When you ass-u-me that you speak for "the people" but in reality only talk to 1/5th of them or less it's no small surprise that you run into situations where you're completely at a loss...like, say, when having to debate a REAL LIVE Republican instead of an MSNBC tackling dummy.

Obama's got, what? Two weeks to bone up and find some game. Here's some tips:

1. Fire John Kerry, who by the way served in Vietnam. He should go to Fox News and hire Bob Beckell as a consultant, and beg Carville to come work for him.
2. Actually show up to debate prep. Last night was one of those instances where the game was lost on the practice field before the first fan walked into the stadium. Mitt put in the work. Obama didn't. Pure and simple.

For you as a fan you need to realize that the PA/MSNBC worldview is shared by only a deep minority of the voting public. Republicans don't have horns, don't all hate blacks, don't want to eat the elderly and the poor people, and actually have functioning brains.

Ass kickings have ways of focusing the mind. Let's see if Obama's vaunted competitive spirit can override his ego and make him bring some game next time.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821207 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 4:16 PM
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"Cause it sure as hell isn't Mitt."

Actually he is

All you have to do is look at Obama 2007/2008 campaign, Obama promised jobs/economy would be his #1 priority, well he won, and Obamacare became #1 priority, Obama said hell with the American people, i can more done when they are hurting and desperate, we will let the American people sweat a while so we can get this Obamacare done. I wouldn't call that a voice for the people or a president who cares about the people, Obama made a concious decision to put all his eggs into Obamacare instead of fixing the economy/jobs. His lack of priorty on the economy/jobs shows in his record/results after 4 years, growth is slowing each year, real unemployment still 14%, 50% of college grads can't get jobs, this is what happens when a president decides to ignore the economy/jobs, things don't improve. So now, finally Obama will work on the economy/jobs? this time we can believe him? no thank you, the American people as a majority isn't that stupid. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, most people are not up to being fooled twice.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821208 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 4:17 PM
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As Mitt pointed out, Obama gave 50 years of oil subsidies in one pop 90 billion to his buddies in green energy (Solyndra) that went belly up.

And Mitt said these subsidies that are 100 years old, are on the table, he may get rid of them.


This is the problem with left wingers. We see it on this board all the time. They're used to debating straw men, who have no voice and can't argue back. They have no clue how to listen and react to the other side.

Mitt, on the other hand, was all over tearing apart Obama's answers. It was a thing of beauty.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821216 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 4:39 PM
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"As Mitt pointed out, Obama gave 50 years of oil subsidies in one pop 90 billion to his buddies in green energy (Solyndra) that went belly up."

If even one of those companies flourishes, the payoff for our future will be incalculable. It has great potential to get us on the road to being dominant in new technology and manufacturing. The only way to do that is to invest, take some risk. Yes, one of those companies failed. That doesn't mean we should never take those risks.

"And Mitt said these subsidies that are 100 years old, are on the table, he may get rid of them."

He also said that much of those subsidies goes to smaller companies, suppliers, etc., and that they may well be needed. Imagine, a capitalist such as Mitt, hedging on government subsidies. In essence, he said nothing committal. He is very good at that.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821221 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 5:11 PM
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If even one of those companies flourishes, the payoff for our future will be incalculable. It has great potential to get us on the road to being dominant in new technology and manufacturing. The only way to do that is to invest, take some risk. Yes, one of those companies failed. That doesn't mean we should never take those risks.

Are solar cells and electric cars new technology?

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821236 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 6:00 PM
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"If even one of those companies flourishes, the payoff for our future will be incalculable. It has great potential to get us on the road to being dominant in new technology and manufacturing. The only way to do that is to invest, take some risk. Yes, one of those companies failed. That doesn't mean we should never take those risks.
"

Another in a long line of progressives who have come out in support for CRONY capitalism. Which means they are in favor of government favoritism and the corruption that ultimately follows.

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821245 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 6:19 PM
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"No, but Romney got to debate a bound and gagged Obama. Obama leveled no charges of any substance and responded to attacks with a "meh.""

Because, he had nothing from which to debate Romney on since his record if replete with failure.

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821246 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 6:19 PM
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"No, but Romney got to debate a bound and gagged Obama. Obama leveled no charges of any substance and responded to attacks with a "meh.""

Because, he had nothing from which to debate Romney on since his record is replete with failure.

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Author: richieds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821284 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 10:25 PM
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"Voters want to see leadership and visions for the future, not 24/7 gotchas."

They didn't get that from Romney last night. His vision of the future was that he will leave it up to congress. He doesn't know the details and has no actual plan. That's simply a fact that he readily admitted to.
For some reason, Obama was just too incompetent to hit that one out of the park.

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Author: richieds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821285 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 10:30 PM
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"2. Romney said people will have options and choice between (voucher) or (traditional) which ever the individual chooses."

Doesn't take much to see how that plan falls apart. Obama touched upon it but was simply incapable of taking it home.

The way insurers, government or private, remain solvent is that the premiums paid by healthy make up for the costs incurred from the unhealthy.

In the voucher plan, that model falls apart. The private insurers take on the healthy clients, leaving the sick to medicare. Eventually, medicare fails under the weight of that broken model.

Add in the fact that we all know the vouchers will fail to keep up with HEALTHCARE INFLATION and you have the recipe for disaster.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821287 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 10:39 PM
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Doesn't take much to see how that plan falls apart. Obama touched upon it but was simply incapable of taking it home.

I wondered how long it would take you to return to the Obama aquatransport business. 24 hours sounded about right :)

In the voucher plan, that model falls apart. The private insurers take on the healthy clients, leaving the sick to medicare. Eventually, medicare fails under the weight of that broken model.

There's just one problem with your narrative: Medicare is doomed anyway.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821291 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 11:01 PM
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Add in the fact that we all know the vouchers will fail to keep up with HEALTHCARE INFLATION and you have the recipe for disaster.

We know that?

Bears

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Author: richieds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821294 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/4/2012 11:28 PM
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"There's just one problem with your narrative: Medicare is doomed anyway."


Says alot that you didn't even attempt to refute the obvious fact that the voucher system would fail.

"I wondered how long it would take you to return to the Obama aquatransport business"


Obama is a horrible debater. Doesn't mean Romney should be president.

Another point you made no attempt to refute is the fact that Romney has no plan and admits to it.

It was another softball that an incompetent Obama should have hit out of the park.
He should have reminded Romney that the way it works as President is you present a plan and then congress debates it. It's called leadership.

I'm still sizing the candidates up. Romney impressed me as a debater but, other than on energy, most of Romney's points last night were untrue and that's a big problem.

Dodd Frank? Repeal with no idea of what to replace it with? Does Romney even understand the concept of "too big to fail" and how that would be handled under Dodd Frank? Nope. Unfortunately, neither did Obama last night.

Obama's big problem with me was not his debating skills but his administrations failure and possible coverup in Bengazi.

For you, the election was made up in your mind four years ago when Obama was first elected.

For me, it will be made up in the next month.

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Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821315 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/5/2012 3:55 AM
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"1. Revenues are off the table for deficit reduction
Mitt talked about this. He doesn't want to raise taxes, BUT, what he'll do is close loopholes. If the Obama campaign really knew anything about Romney - and it's evident they don't, nor do his supporters - the government has more ways than taxes to raise revenue. Mitt raised fees as governor of Mass. He'll do it as President. Will that be enough? I don't know."


Romney is going to raise 5 trillion dollars in fees? LOL Is there anything he says that you would look at critically or do you just accept everything from Romney/Ryan because they have a R next to their name?

You say others are no nothings, yet you actually believe that Mitt can cut everyone's rates by 20%, raise defense spending and close the deficit.

His magic underwear must really be special.

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Author: SaintPatrick1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821319 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/5/2012 6:30 AM
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More religious bigotry. Expected at this point.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821322 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/5/2012 6:50 AM
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"What about oil subsidies"

As Mitt pointed out, Obama gave 50 years of oil subsidies in one pop 90 billion to his buddies in green energy (Solyndra) that went belly up.

And Mitt said these subsidies that are 100 years old, are on the table, he may get rid of them.
_________________________________

Isn't it funny how Mr. Specifics is never specific about anything?

What 'oil subsidies' is he actually talking about.


Why don't you put up or shut up President Punk, or for that matter just shut up. Sorry to you who respect him, but he is so darn tiresome even for a hypocritical even.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821326 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/5/2012 7:52 AM
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What are Obama's answers to the above? It's amusing watching you guys allow Obama to hand wave but you all demand uber-specifics from Mitt. He even covered that, too; I'll bet you don't know where or how. Obama sure didn't.
____________________

This is what gets so damn tiresome from the whole crew of them

They demand that Mitt admit to every strawman that Obama can come up with, and when he does not, they believe he mist be a liar.

As far as Obama goes? Well they know what he means, and even if they do not and there is no detail, they know he means well, so it really does not matter what the details are.

IT is just so dumb, I always believe they are disingenuous and end up really disliking them. I guess I am not fair, if I can just wrap my mind around the fact that they may actually be this stupid, I could feel a little better about them.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1821379 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/5/2012 10:04 AM
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More religious bigotry. Expected at this point.

LOL. I unboxed him to read that. Yeah, it's not surprising that in the 11th hour when the other insults don't work anymore that liberals would start letting the religious bigotry come out. Hoch did it the other day as well. Nobody hates like a liberal.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1822224 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/8/2012 11:34 AM
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[ If even one of those companies flourishes, the payoff for our future will be incalculable. It has great potential to get us on the road to being dominant in new technology and manufacturing. The only way to do that is to invest, take some risk. Yes, one of those companies failed. That doesn't mean we should never take those risks. ]

"Are solar cells and electric cars new technology?"

Not sure if they are (to you) or not. Why do you ask?

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1822225 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/8/2012 11:36 AM
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[ "If even one of those companies flourishes, the payoff for our future will be incalculable. It has great potential to get us on the road to being dominant in new technology and manufacturing. The only way to do that is to invest, take some risk. Yes, one of those companies failed. That doesn't mean we should never take those risks." ]

"Another in a long line of progressives who have come out in support for CRONY capitalism. Which means they are in favor of government favoritism and the corruption that ultimately follows."

That is a bizarro interpretation of what I said.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1822231 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/8/2012 12:14 PM
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Not sure if they are (to you) or not. Why do you ask?

Because I want to see if you are aware that both solar cells and windmills aren't exactly new.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1822233 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/8/2012 12:18 PM
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[ Not sure if they are (to you) or not. Why do you ask? ]

"Because I want to see if you are aware that both solar cells and windmills aren't exactly new."

I see. Was there something I said that you disagreed with, or was there something you wanted to add?

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1822238 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/8/2012 12:30 PM
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I see. Was there something I said that you disagreed with, or was there something you wanted to add?

Somebody (I think it was you) was talking about explosive new growth or something in solar and wind. I merely want to know if you're aware that these technologies have been around for decades.

Are you aware you can make solar cells in your kitchen sink?

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1822240 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/8/2012 12:34 PM
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"Somebody (I think it was you) was talking about explosive new growth or something in solar and wind. I merely want to know if you're aware that these technologies have been around for decades.

Are you aware you can make solar cells in your kitchen sink?"



Wow. You really focused on the word 'new'. I was saying 'new' in the sense that it would be a 'new' manufacturing base for us, not that it was new technology.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1822241 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/8/2012 12:39 PM
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Wow. You really focused on the word 'new'. I was saying 'new' in the sense that it would be a 'new' manufacturing base for us, not that it was new technology.

A "new" manufacturing base? Okay. (If you can't tell, I'm probing you to see what you know about this).

How hard is it to build a semiconductor fab to make solar cells?

And windmills. How hard is it to build those?

In other words, where's the real value-add in those products? What's the hardest thing about them?

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1822268 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/8/2012 2:28 PM
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"A "new" manufacturing base? Okay. (If you can't tell, I'm probing you to see what you know about this)."

Are you now? Fascinating. Are you always this condescending? Its kind of weird.

"In other words, where's the real value-add in those products? What's the hardest thing about them?"

You've entirely missed the point I was making. Never mind.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1822269 of 1949337
Subject: Re: "Not an MSNBC debate" Date: 10/8/2012 2:35 PM
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Are you now? Fascinating. Are you always this condescending? Its kind of weird.

You've been a consistent Obama defender and attacker of the right wing. These should be simple questions.

You've entirely missed the point I was making. Never mind.

No, I think I know where you were going. The problem is, there's a lot you don't know. That for example the most valuable parts of windmills are the rare-Earth magnets they use. Guess who owns the mining for that? China.

Over on the solar panel side, I don't want any US semiconductor fabs touching that crap. The marginal profit for a solar cell isn't much. US fabs should be making microprocessors and SOCs - things that require cutting edge processing. Not solar cells unless somebody has a great idea for new materials. One that say, boosts efficiency over the 23% that they can get today (and most are worse than that).

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