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Author: AlisonWonderland Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 4330  
Subject: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/25/2006 2:23 PM
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Anyone ever heard of this? It's for young adults who have some assets but whose lives haven't gotten to the stage of spouses or real estate ownership and such. The idea is to decide how to handle the no-longer-kid's assets so they don't blow it all on twinkies or other extravances. Who'd get the assets if the unthinkable were to happen. The Health Care documents. Who makes those decisions. That kind of thing, revocable but in a much more simplified arrangement than for older folks.

The Revocable Trust board hasn't had a post in a year, so I thought I'd ask about it here.

TIA ~~ Alison
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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2398 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/25/2006 10:48 PM
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Never heard of it.

Trust Lite?

buzman

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Author: AlisonWonderland Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2399 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/25/2006 10:53 PM
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Trust Lite?

That's sorta what it sounds like to me.

Thanks, buzman!

~~ Alison

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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2400 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/25/2006 11:11 PM
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Consult an attorney familiar with estate law in your state.

buzman

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Author: AlisonWonderland Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2401 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/25/2006 11:16 PM
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Consult an attorney familiar with estate law in your state.

He's the one talking about it. That's why I'd posted here -- to minimize the personal stake in the matter.

;^D

Thanks again.

~~ Alison

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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2402 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 7:00 AM
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I googled transitonal trust-nothing jumped out at me.

I assume that the beneficiary access to the assets is limited but I am not a lawyer.

Maybe this arrangment has more flexibility.

buzman

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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2403 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 7:26 AM
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It's for young adults who have some assets but whose lives haven't gotten to the stage of spouses or real estate ownership and such. The idea is to decide how to handle the no-longer-kid's assets so they don't blow it all on twinkies or other extravances. Who'd get the assets if the unthinkable were to happen. The Health Care documents. Who makes those decisions. That kind of thing, revocable but in a much more simplified arrangement than for older folks.


It doesn't sound any different than a regular trust that you set up to pass your assets along. Currently, we have living trusts that have all our assets in them, and these would be used to pass the assets on to the kids if we both die with distributions something like 1/3 at 25 and the balance at 35. I don't see how this is any different than what you describe except the way you described it, it almost sounded like you were taking the assets the child already has and locking them up, but that can't be right because they already belong to the child.


The Revocable Trust board hasn't had a post in a year, so I thought I'd ask about it here.


I'd post it there anyhow. I suspect that folks that would frequent that board have it on favorites as I do, so they'll see that there's a new message once you post. It can't hurt to do that.

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Author: AlisonWonderland Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2404 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 12:56 PM
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It doesn't sound any different than a regular trust

No, it doesn't seem very different, except that maybe it's a trust on training wheels. It'd include the Health Care documents, which we need to do anyway, but it'd be a slimmed down trust -- no need for guardianship issues -- but also with some safeguards for the kid's access to the assets up to a designated age.

I don't see how this is any different than what you describe except the way you described it, it almost sounded like you were taking the assets the child already has and locking them up, but that can't be right because they already belong to the child.

No, it absolutely wouldn't be taking their assets. It'd be more like changing from custodial (with me as custodian) to individual but with some restrictions on their accessing the assets -- a trustee with veto power rather than a custodian.

It can't hurt to do that.

Sure, why not. Maybe the Family Fool board as well.

Thanks!

~~ Alison

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2405 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 1:06 PM
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I have nothing to say except thanks for tackling this one first - we'll be redoing things in a couple of years and I'm thrilled to have someone to follow !

rad

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Author: AlisonWonderland Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2406 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 1:14 PM
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thanks for tackling this one first

Wooo Hooooo -- I'm looking into an estate planning / parenting thing before 2gifts and rad! LOL!

;^D

~~ Alison

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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2407 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 1:31 PM
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No, it doesn't seem very different, except that maybe it's a trust on training wheels. It'd include the Health Care documents, which we need to do anyway, but it'd be a slimmed down trust -- no need for guardianship issues -- but also with some safeguards for the kid's access to the assets up to a designated age.


OK, now I'm really confused. I've never heard of putting health care documents or guardianship things in a trust. I'm assuming the health care docs are for the kids who would not be minors at the point the trust kicks in, so they'd need health care docs. And we have our guardian and trustee for the kids named in our will as that is not something I'd ever heard belonged in a trust.

From what you've said, this doesn't sound any different to me than what is already in place, so why does your attorney think you need this thing? I'm wondering what his reasoning is that you seem to need something different when it seems to me that whatever you are setting up while the kids are minors is still good if you're setting it up so they don't get the money til some older age. I'm missing the part about why you need one of these in addition to, say, a living trust that you already fund and that will go to the kids when you die.

Did he tell you why you'd do one of these over either a living trust or an irrevocable trust that would have the same provisions?

I think I'm being dense here because this is not sinking in for me.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2408 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 1:37 PM
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AlisonWonderland:
Subject: "Transitional" Trust

"Anyone ever heard of this? It's for young adults who have some assets but whose lives haven't gotten to the stage of spouses or real estate ownership and such. The idea is to decide how to handle the no-longer-kid's assets so they don't blow it all on twinkies or other extravances. Who'd get the assets if the unthinkable were to happen. The Health Care documents. Who makes those decisions. That kind of thing, revocable but in a much more simplified arrangement than for older folks."

No, and having read the balance of the posts, neither has anyone else.

My first thought was that it was some new-fangled marketing terminology to help sell a trust.

If the no-longer kids are adults, then they own there assets and only they could put them in a trust.

Regards, JAFO



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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2409 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 1:48 PM
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I have a couple of thoughts -

part of what the professional is talking about is making sure the young adults at least have the minimal documents - living will, health care power of attorney, durable power of attorney in case they are needed.

(note to self - discuss with older son)

This can definitely come into play if adult child would choose other than parents to make decisions and especially if in a long term non-marital relationship. A will is also important.

The other pieces are on the parent side and we've actually started these discussions. What is the order of decision maker among the kids, both financially and otherwise ? In our case, we've been discussing it and they've been discussing it among themselves(since I recently was the decision maker for another relative,that started the discussions.)

Sometimes it's not oldest to youngest by choice. We also discussed guardianship with the oldest and middle as they each hit 21 and went with their preferences.

In our case eventually, it will all go youngest, oldest, middle by their choice.

Then there's the question of when do you want them to have access to the money. For us, at this point, they are all pretty well trained financially so they can have it all whenever. If it was legal and something happened to use tomorrow, I would rather the youngest manage his own money than have someone else manage it for him. Alas, it can't be for about another just over 2 years :)

Just thoughts and not hijacking.

rad

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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2410 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 3:03 PM
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My first thought was that it was some new-fangled marketing terminology to help sell a trust. se JAFO

------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was my second or third thought, but then again I am not nearly as smart as JAFO.

Look at like this.

The lawyer does one trust (lite) then later he does another one.

It may all be on the up and up.

I just don't know.

buzman



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Author: AlisonWonderland Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2411 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 3:45 PM
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OK, now I'm really confused. I've never heard of putting health care documents or guardianship things in a trust. . . . I'm missing the part about why you need one of these in addition to, say, a living trust that you already fund and that will go to the kids when you die.

My apologies for not being clearer about things.

The "transitional" trusts would be for the kids, not for us. And each kid would be the Trustmaker of his own Trust. As part of the process to create the kids' trusts, the health care documents would be part of the package deal, not part of the trust. Just as our trust documents include Health Care Proxy, pour-over will, Power of Attorney, etc., the transitional trusts would include those documents but for the kids' benefits and assets.

The kids do not (yet) have any dependents so they don't need to deal with guardianship issues. We dealt with guardian issues when the kids were younger, of course, but they're no longer minors so that's not really part of the picture. Nor do they have spouses.

Some of the kids' assets are still Custodial as they were Gifts to Minors. While that may not have been the ideal set-up, we merely said, "Thank you for the gifts." While we've tried to instill good financial sense with each of them, as parents, we want to continue to offer guidelines as their financial/legal/medical situations change and develop.

In looking into these "transitional" trusts, we're trying to help the kids give thought to and make plans for who will make decisions (medical, financial, etc.) for them if they are not able to do so. And if need be, what happens to their (individual) assets if, well, the "unthinkable" happens. Even with a more streamlined Trust, there are still issues which need consideration.

Does it make a little more sense now? Again, sorry for having caused confusion.

~~ Alison

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Author: AlisonWonderland Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2412 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 3:48 PM
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new-fangled marketing terminology to help sell a trust

That's why I'm asking. I felt that if someone else had gone through this process, I could pick someone else's brain. That way, when I talk to the lawyer, I wouldn't be so clueless.

If the no-longer kids are adults, then they own there assets and only they could put them in a trust.

That's the idea.

Thanks ~~ Alison

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Author: AlisonWonderland Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2413 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 3:52 PM
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part of what the professional is talking about is making sure the young adults at least have the minimal documents - living will, health care power of attorney, durable power of attorney in case they are needed.

(note to self - discuss with older son)

This can definitely come into play if adult child would choose other than parents to make decisions and especially if in a long term non-marital relationship. A will is also important.


Exactly.

Just thoughts and not hijacking.

Not hijacking at all. I appreciate the thoughts. I was hoping to engender and foster some discussion here so that I'd have more to offer the kids as we go through the process.

Thanks ~~ Alison

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2414 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 4:06 PM
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Not hijacking at all. I appreciate the thoughts. I was hoping to engender and foster some discussion here so that I'd have more to offer the kids as we go through the process.

You know your own kids but think through who they are. My middle kid hates thinking about any of this for anyone and it has been an issue lately because of the stuff I have had to do for my mother which led to me commenting about stuff for my husband and me which led to him acting like a jerk which would have made more sense to me if I had thought about it :)

If you had discussions about beneficiaries for their Roths, that might give you some insight on these discussions. (Reminder to self - ask daughter if she's changed hers now that she's married).

rad

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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2415 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 4:13 PM
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The "transitional" trusts would be for the kids, not for us. And each kid would be the Trustmaker of his own Trust. As part of the process to create the kids' trusts, the health care documents would be part of the package deal, not part of the trust. Just as our trust documents include Health Care Proxy, pour-over will, Power of Attorney, etc., the transitional trusts would include those documents but for the kids' benefits and assets.


...

In looking into these "transitional" trusts, we're trying to help the kids give thought to and make plans for who will make decisions (medical, financial, etc.) for them if they are not able to do so. And if need be, what happens to their (individual) assets if, well, the "unthinkable" happens. Even with a more streamlined Trust, there are still issues which need consideration.


Now it just sounds to me like the lawyer is looking for a way to make money. If the kids would be the grantor to their own trusts, and they don't have much in the way of assets nor do they have dependents, why do they need a trust at all? I don't see any advantage for them, though I can see where the lawyer makes money.

There are a few reasons that I can think of for using a trust, and I can't see that any of the ones I can think of would apply to your kids or anyone with few assets. You do a trust when you want to avoid probate and the expense associated, but your kids would have a small estate at this age, so that shouldn't be very complicated or expensive. You do a trust when you want to keep the estate private and avoid contesting as in a will, but again, they don't have much, and who is there really to contest anyhing? You do a trust when you're trying to split up assets such as between spouses to make the maximum use of the lifetime exemption, but the kids have no real assets, so there's already no worry about maximizing the lifetime exemption.

I can see the point about thinking about health care proxies and who makes decisions, but that's part of a standard estate package these days that also includes a will. I can see that they might need the will, durable power of attorney and health care proxy, but I still see no value whatsoever to you and your kids for this trust in the manner in which it's been described. It just doesn't seem to solve any problem for them, so why bother spending the money?

It's kind of like trying to sell life insurance to a 20-year-old single person. They have no assets and no dependents, so what is there to insure, but it generates a commission for the agent.

Is this your regular estate planning attorney that is suggesting this, or is it someone new? I'd walk away from the trust, but I'd get the rest of the package, and that would give you what you need to be able to deal with their finances if they are unable to do so, but you don't need a trust for that. It just seems to me that by the time a trust becomes a reasonable vehicle for your kids, they'll be married and may have kids of their own, so they'd need to make all sorts of changes anyhow. Therefore, I'd wait til then before doing anything.

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Author: AlisonWonderland Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2416 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 4:20 PM
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My middle kid hates thinking about any of this

Is this something with all middle kids who are boys? Or is it just coincidence? <g>

Even bringing up the health care issues was major. "I'd be better off dead" was one of the less emotional statements he made during that discussion. Then he started in with the Terry Schiavo situation. And on and on and on.

The younger one got it, which started the older one on yet another rant -- about how the younger one doesn't take things seriously enough and so on. Older son doesn't realize that these discussions aren't fun for anyone, but that it's important to think about it before it becomes an issue.

If you had discussions about beneficiaries for their Roths, that might give you some insight on these discussions.

Good point -- thanks.

ask daughter if she's changed hers now that she's married).

She's married? How'd I miss that? (or maybe I just forgot) Congrats all around -- I wish her much happiness!

Thanks again for your thoughts!

~~ Alison

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Author: AlisonWonderland Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2417 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/26/2006 4:33 PM
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Now it just sounds to me like the lawyer is looking for a way to make money.

Yes, that thought has occurred to me as well.

I can't see that any of the ones I can think of would apply to your kids or anyone with few assets.

Nope, none of the reasons you've mentioned apply to their situation. It could, however, function in terms of some kind of pre-nuptial documentation, I suppose.

It just doesn't seem to solve any problem for them, so why bother spending the money?

But maybe it could prevent certain problems?

It's kind of like trying to sell life insurance to a 20-year-old single person. They have no assets and no dependents, so what is there to insure, but it generates a commission for the agent.

I do know of one particular case where a young adult did get an insurance policy despite not having dependents. I know his mother has assets, but don't how he fits into that picture. However, he developed diabetes at a fairly young age, but after the policy is in effect. So in this case, he's much better off having gotten the policy when he did, rather than waiting till he was older and possibly uninsurable. But yeah, that's only one case.

Is this your regular estate planning attorney that is suggesting this,

Regular.

It just seems to me that by the time a trust becomes a reasonable vehicle for your kids, they'll be married and may have kids of their own, so they'd need to make all sorts of changes anyhow.

Or maybe the trust could just be restated at that later date, rather than starting from scratch?

I dunno.

Thanks for the comments.

~~ Alison

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Author: Selphiras Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2418 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/27/2006 8:53 AM
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I, too, think the lawyer's trying to get money. Health care documents (the basics) don't need lawyers (unless this varies in your state). Here in WI, the health care companies and hospital systems hand out the forms. You just have to have them witnessed by two other people. You can fill them out all on your own. When we had our wills done, the lawyer just asked to make sure we had them. (We had the paperwork, so she didn't give us any. And then she simply reminded us each time to take care of it. LOL no extra fees for it.) We have a kid and some assets; we don't need a trust yet. We just did a fairly simple will. Cost $250. Your kids could do a fairly simple will, too. Unless they don't really care that their measly assets will go to Mom and Dad. That's how I felt until recently. (Actually, it's how I still feel, but we wanted the will for guardianship reasons. And the assets now go to our daughter, then our Moms.)

Anyway, the point is that beyond health care documents which don't need a lawyer, there's little need for lots of legal documents for young adults.

I do, however, second the idea of someone who talked about the young man who got life insurance early. We desparately wish we'd gotten it for DH when we were first married or before. When we finally got to the "let's have kids and get life insurance" he was no longer insurable at an amount we could afford due to a chronic illness and obesity. Thank goodness I'm the breadwinner in the family and was insurable. (And even that for one year we paid for half as much insurance because I'd finally gone to doctors about a long-standing issue that was an annoyance to me but not life threatening. The insurance company wouldn't give me as much insurance as we wanted for another year because of it.) If I could do over again, we both would have gotten life insurance policies the year we got engaged. We were far more insurable as 26/28 year olds than 30/32 year olds.

Selphiras

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2419 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/27/2006 6:45 PM
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It's for young adults who have some assets but whose lives haven't gotten to the stage of spouses or real estate ownership and such. The idea is to decide how to handle the no-longer-kid's assets so they don't blow it all on twinkies or other extravances. Who'd get the assets if the unthinkable were to happen. The Health Care documents. Who makes those decisions.

I'm a little unclear as to when this trust kicks in. Is this part of your (and Dear Doc's) estate planning?

The health care reference confuses me. If we're talking about legally competent adults, you have no say, in life or death, in their health care decisions unless they have designated you to have them. (BTW, always a bad idea for offspring to designate parents as health care proxies. See Terri Schiavo.) If they're minors they need real live guardians.

I'm also not quite clear about whose demise in "unthinkable" in your antepenultimate (I just love it when I can use that word) sentence above. You can always plop your assets intended for offspring X in a trust to be meted out at certain ages, with specified disposition of the corpus should X die before receiving all the assets.

In short, forget about instruments and figure out how you want things to happen should you not be around. Figuring out the paperwork to accomplish it is the lawyer's job.

Phil

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2420 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/27/2006 6:51 PM
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In looking into these "transitional" trusts, we're trying to help the kids give thought to and make plans for who will make decisions (medical, financial, etc.) for them if they are not able to do so. And if need be, what happens to their (individual) assets if, well, the "unthinkable" happens. Even with a more streamlined Trust, there are still issues which need consideration.

Does it make a little more sense now?


Much. Ignore prior response.

Big fan I am of having papers in order, if they're at the stage of life that they're comfortable with the state's disposition of their assets, I don't see the need of a will or trust that's just going to need revision as life progresses. (Their homework could be finding out exactly what would happen to their assets should they die intestate.)

I would have frank talks with them about health care proxies. To expand on my earlier comment, there's no way I would have put my parents in that role. I would not have been at all comfortable that they would pull my plug even if it was the best thing for me. It's totally unnatural for a parent to bury a child. A competent sibling or close friend would be a much better choice.

Phil

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2421 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/27/2006 8:15 PM
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I would have frank talks with them about health care proxies. To expand on my earlier comment, there's no way I would have put my parents in that role. I would not have been at all comfortable that they would pull my plug even if it was the best thing for me. It's totally unnatural for a parent to bury a child. A competent sibling or close friend would be a much better choice.

I think it probably very much depends on the age and disposition of the child. Do you really think a 22 year old should chose a close friend for this decision over a parent ? In our case even the sibling would be either 24 or 18. We've been here for them all the way along so far and not matter how difficult, I really hope he would choose us for this serious a decision. For the other 2, he would absolutely never want to be put in that position.

rad

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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2422 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 7/27/2006 8:30 PM
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I would have frank talks with them about health care proxies. To expand on my earlier comment, there's no way I would have put my parents in that role. I would not have been at all comfortable that they would pull my plug even if it was the best thing for me. It's totally unnatural for a parent to bury a child. A competent sibling or close friend would be a much better choice.


At a young age, I cannot imagine not having a parent for this role, and to make this difficult decision. With all the publicity around the Terry Schiavo case, we have talked quite a bit about this in our house, and the kids know where we stand for us. As they get older and can decide more for themselves, they will tell us their wishes as well.

We have been in the unfortunate predicament of having to have such a discussion around a child, and I do believe that I would be able to make the right choice along with their wishes if such a thing would be required. In our case, we didn't get to the point of having to do it, but it was something that we did have to discuss and come to terms with when my kids were infants given how sick my DS was, so it's not like we are unfamiliar with these discussions.

In addition, there's no way that I would want one of them to have to decide for their own twin at a young age, such as in their early 20's, and I most certainly don't want a friend making that decision.

When they're older and married, the decision clearly should go to the spouse, but in their younger years, I maintain that it should be the parent.

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Author: Selphiras Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2423 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 8/3/2006 3:57 PM
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Something else important to remember about health care decisions is that the person named does not have to make the actual decisions. The decisions should be in the health care document, and the person named tells the providers to follow those decisions.

This distinction is very important to my DH and me. I do not believe that it is morally right to withdraw nutrition and water. My DH would like it withdrawn under certain circumstances. I told him that asking me to make that decision was akin, to ME, to asking to commit murder. Although he thought that was wrong of me (since he was the one who would want it done), I am adamant that I can't do this. So we didn't get our docs signed for quite a few years because of this.

I've now learned that I can turn to the doctor and tell him/her to please follow my husband's wishes and that I am not making any decision. Rather, DH has made the decision and the documents allow the hospital to follow those wishes.

To us this distinction is important in choosing who to name as our proxy.

Selphiras

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2424 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 8/3/2006 4:10 PM
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I've now learned that I can turn to the doctor and tell him/her to please follow my husband's wishes and that I am not making any decision. Rather, DH has made the decision and the documents allow the hospital to follow those wishes.

To us this distinction is important in choosing who to name as our proxy.</i.

The what might be black and white but from recent experience, the when gets mighty grey. Actually the exactly what can get fuzzy as well.

rad


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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2425 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 8/3/2006 8:46 PM
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This distinction is very important to my DH and me. I do not believe that it is morally right to withdraw nutrition and water. My DH would like it withdrawn under certain circumstances. I told him that asking me to make that decision was akin, to ME, to asking to commit murder. Although he thought that was wrong of me (since he was the one who would want it done), I am adamant that I can't do this. So we didn't get our docs signed for quite a few years because of this.


My DH has my nephew as back-up to me, and he was really concerned that DN would not be able to make the decision to pull the plug, so he had a sit-down with him to make sure that DN was willing and able to carry through on DH's wishes.

I am not convinced all the criteria and decisions can be explicitly called out in the document. For this reason, I prefer to have someone named as my proxy who can and will make the hard decisions. If DH were not able to carry out my wishes, and I didn't think I'd be able to cover all the bases in the document, I would have elected someone else for the role.

You bring up a very good point, however, in that you always need to make sure that your designated proxy is willing and able to decide for you and carry out your wishes, and that they have a clear understanding of what those wishes are. I think that's key.

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Author: sockgirl One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2426 of 4330
Subject: Re: "Transitional" Trust Date: 8/7/2006 11:52 AM
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This is an electrically charged topic for me, having been through it with my deceased DH. At the end, when they wanted to entubate, he was able to say very clearly "NO - I don't want to continue like this, please let me go." We slipped in the morphine and withdrew oxygen a couple of hours later. I still ponder that early morning traumatic event. We were both adults and I was the right person to be with him, but had he been much younger and unmarried, I think it would have to be his parents making those decisions; it is too much of a burden to lay at a sibling's feet, because you do carry it with you for the rest of your life, even when you are CLEARLY carrying out the person's instructions. I really think it depends on the age of the individual, their siblings and parents. Had he been single, age 55, and the parents around age 80...well, then, maybe siblings are a better choice. Sometimes it comes down to who is better equipped emotionally.

In prior conversations, we skirted the issue of assisted suicide, with me stating I hoped we would never be in the situation where he would have to ask me. I believe in the right to die, rather than suffering agonizing breaths, but then I've been influenced by 20 years of living with someone in chronic pain. On the other hand, it is a LOT to ask of someone, knowing they could go to jail for that "kindness" to you...

Still conflicted...Sock Girl

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