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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 127262  
Subject: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/30/2012 4:00 PM
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A while back I posted about how AIM had come back to us a couple of weeks after closing and was asking us to take care of some additional paperwork.


Well, this morning I got a call from an agent about scheduling our closing. I said, "Well, it's not really a closing - it's just a few documents, right? We closed on July 30th." He said no, that it was a full closing.

YIKES!

I check PNC and our mortgage had never been paid off by Aug 6th (as per the loan docs), so I called AIM to figure out what happened. After getting passed from one person to another, Kaitlyn says I should just call the title company - AIM doesn't know what's going on.

I called the title company and they said, "Didn't AIM tell you they voided the closing?" Um, no. "You should get in touch with them right away."

I'm still sorting this out, but at least have a message in with one of the supervisors there.

If it weren't for the low rate & terms, I'd bail on this ch!ckensh!t company right now.

Hmmmm...when the title company voided the transaction, why didn't they return the certified check for closing? Got another call to make.

BG
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Author: crackdclaw Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124039 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/30/2012 4:36 PM
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Sorry for your difficulties, but will suggest you also make at least one more phone call. Call PNC, your current mortgage company, and make sure your August payment was recorded. If you skipped the August payment due to a July 30th closing, you have exactly one day to pay before they report it late to the credit bureaus.

You may also want to pay your Sept PNC payment, as I would not have confidence in an on time closing and current loan payoff. Have the title company updated the PNC payoff statement reflecting all payments.

I'm in the mortgage industry, and your story is right up there at the top, for ways that an incompetent Loan Officer, working out of a call center, can screw up a homeowner on a refinance.

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124040 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/30/2012 9:02 PM
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Yes, we had already sent out payment to PNC prior to closing so I figured that when they paid them off we'd eventually get a check for a few hundred bucks.

THE BIG NEWS NOW: I asked the closing agent to send me the docs after they received them today. ("You really want them in advance? Nobody does that!") AIM has jacked up several of its fees.

Title Insurance: Up over $100
Atty Notice Fee: $95 (wasn't even on the July original!)
Gov't Recording Fee: Up $20

I'm still working my way through....

BG

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124041 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/30/2012 9:06 PM
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If the new loan is for the same amount of principal, the title insurance fee should not have increased. It appears to me that AIM is requiring an update on the title search. That cost should not be yours, but rather whoever messed it up should absorb it. Same for the attorney notice fee.

Also, the Government Recording Fee should remain the same.

I would be asking LOTS of questions.

Donna (SC real estate paralegal)

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124042 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/30/2012 9:18 PM
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Just got off the phone w/ our loan processor's supervisor and she said she's "alarmed" that the charges changed and that she'll be back to me tomorrow morning.

Wow.....

BG

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124043 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/30/2012 9:30 PM
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Yikes. Sorry to hear you are going through this. Your experience is making me feel much warmer and fuzzier about my less than perfect experience with Amerisave.

IP

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124044 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/30/2012 11:53 PM
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Per the new RESPA rules under the Dodd-Frank Act, there's a 10% tolerance in all costs except loan origination and lender's admin fee. This article 'splains.

http://www.massrealestatelawblog.com/tag/respa-10-tolerance/...

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124045 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/31/2012 12:30 AM
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CCinOC, that's not the point. She already closed. Apparently, something was wrong, and they must re-close. Now, they are increasing the fees.

I am sure the increases are due to the re-closing. More than likely, the documents were recorded, and the mortgage must be satisfied, and the new mortgag recorded. That why I said, in my opinion, the attorney's charge (due to update in title) and recording charge due to the above sentence. Why they would be increasing the title insurance charge is beyond me, unless they are requiring a new title insurance commitment. In any event, someone other than she should be paying these additional costs.

I would also like to know what they did with the money she gave them for the closing. She should receive credit for all sums given by her to the closing attorney or escrow company at the first closing.

She should suffer no additional costs.

Donna (curious to know exactly why this situation occurred)

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124046 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/31/2012 1:48 PM
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Donna, it's a "he".... B^)

The reason they voided the closing was (quote from the email): "the loan documents have MrGrits and MrsGrits on the loan however the vesting on title only has MrGrits' name."

AIM's position as of this morning is that the additional costs still have to be born by me because everything is still within the ballpark of the original GFE. Here's what I wrote back:

"With respect to the two additional fees you mentioned ($95, $20), I hope that - per our phone conversation - the costs will be assumed by AIM as the party at fault for not preparing the documents properly. I also assume you'll reverse the increase in the gov't recording fees back to its original amount of $120?

Please also record as part of the closing documents the fact that we've already paid $4,938.05 in closing costs.

I understand your position regarding a comparison of the revised loan documents to the GFE, however please understand my perspective from that of the customer. We have signed, completed contracts setting certain fixed fees. The fact that the the paperwork is being resubmitted should not be an opportunity to increase those fees once they've effectively been quoted - not estimated, but quoted - in a contract."

BG

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124047 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/31/2012 2:13 PM
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Donna405 wrote: CCinOC, that's not the point.

My comment was generally informational and may or may not apply to this situation.

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124049 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/31/2012 4:15 PM
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AIM has gotten back to us and said some costs must remain on the closing documents (apparently a legal thing), but they will issue a credit "given your (my) strong feelings on the situation."

We're set to close at 6pm local time & I've asked the docs be emailed just so we can verify everything.


BG

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124050 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/31/2012 5:50 PM
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The costs SHOULD NOT be borne by you for their mistake. Whoever closed the transaction for you should have reviewed the documents before you two signing them. That's what we do, and have the documents corrected prior to the closing. In your instance, it was very SHODDY work.

In addition, you have already closed. Therefore, the original GFE is no longer applicable. Actually, a new GFE should be prepared for the new closing. (But we won't tell them that.) It appears to me that neither the lender nor the closer (be it an attorney or escrow company) know what they are doing.

Keep us up to date.

Donna (sorry about the gender gaffe)

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124051 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/31/2012 5:51 PM
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Very good!!! You stuck to your guns and won.

Donna

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124053 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/31/2012 9:10 PM
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Donna405 wrote: In addition, you have already closed. Therefore, the original GFE is no longer applicable.

Sez who? The borrower may prevail but the RESPA rules ala Dodd Frank are very specific about what's applicable and what isn't.

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124054 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 8/31/2012 10:17 PM
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We just finished closing (her 7th of the day) and ran into two problems.

The first one is minor - DW's name was, again, misspelled, but in a different way. *sigh* This was mostly an irritant and inconvenience as I'd asked them to fix this.

The second may or may not be significant so I'll let you folks be the judge. Among our documents was a "warranty deed" which required only my signature. Although I bought the home as a single man, after I married (June, 1999) we've carried both our names on the property.

I've emailed the manager of our loan processor alerting her to the situation and asking if we should be worried, but she probably won't see it until Tuesday.

As an aside, I looked through the documents from our bungled July closing and no such document is there. Neither is it among the documents from our last refi back in 2010. I have no idea why it's needed now.

BG

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124058 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 1:25 AM
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Ah, the GFE was for the loan that closed. If the lender is requiring another closing, that would be a separate GFE.

Donna (been there, done that)

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124059 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 1:29 AM
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Apparently, the lender is requiring that the property be in both yours and your DW's names, jointly. (Not unusual)

Now, we know why the loan was "redone". You state that "after I married..we've carried both names on the property." That cannot be done without a Deed from you conveying an undivided one-half interest to your wife, or a Quit Claim Deed. (Here in SC, they require a fee-simple, General Warranty Deed.) Of course, the Deed was not in the original package, is that is one of the "screw-ups."

Lender's are becoming more picky.

Donna

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124060 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 1:42 AM
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Donna,

Thank you for the explanation -- that's certainly a lot more info than anyone at AIM gave me!

But if what you say is so, then why did they void the original closure instead of just having me sign the supplemental document? Wouldn't that have accomplished the same thing? And while I have no intention of doing so, what would prevent the deed from being revised later? Nothing I saw seemed to require that the terms of the warranty deed be maintained.

BG

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124061 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 1:51 AM
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BG, the Deed would have to be executed and recorded prior to the Mortgage.

First, the property must be in yours and our DW's names; thence, the Deed. Then, you and DW sign the Mortgage, since the property is now in both of your names. The documents are to be recorded in exactly the same order.

Donna

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124062 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 2:24 AM
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Well, here's what's wild.

The July closing was on the 30th and the docs said the loan to our mortgage company (PNC) was to be paid by something like August 6th. The email telling us "you have a problem" was sent August 20th.

If the payment had to be rendered by the 6th, you'd think the problem with the deed would have surfaced that first week of July. Sounds weird, doesn't it?

In any event, it sounds like all's okay now. Thank you for the explanation!

BG

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124065 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 11:40 AM
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Donna wrote: Ah, the GFE was for the loan that closed. If the lender is requiring another closing, that would be a separate GFE.

I don't think so. The file, even re-closed, would contain a revised GFE, not a new one.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124066 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 3:30 PM
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BlueGrits: "We just finished closing (her 7th of the day) and ran into two problems.

The first one is minor - DW's name was, again, misspelled, but in a different way. *sigh* This was mostly an irritant and inconvenience as I'd asked them to fix this.

The second may or may not be significant so I'll let you folks be the judge. Among our documents was a "warranty deed" which required only my signature. Although I bought the home as a single man, after I married (June, 1999) we've carried both our names on the property."


THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, but I suspect that you just conveyed 1/2 interest in the house to your wife (for no apparent reason, as far I can infer), but there are one or two other possibilities.

Regards, JAFO

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124067 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 3:37 PM
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Donna405: <<<Apparently, the lender is requiring that the property be in both yours and your DW's names, jointly. (Not unusual)>>>

Why that should matter to the lender is beyond me. Whomever agrees to repay the money needs to sign the note. Whomever owns the property needs to sign the mortgage/deed of trust. Three should be no reason that the first group need to match the second group. There is a problem, however, if one of the owners of the property refuses to sign the mortgaeg/deed of trust.

Regards, JAFO

Disclaimer

Yes, I am a lawyer, BUT THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE; it is only general information. NO CLIENT RELATIONSHIP IS INTENDED TO BE CREATED, NOR IS ANY SUCH RELATIONSHIP SO CREATED. FOR SPECIFIC LEGAL ADVICE YOU SHOULD TALK TO A LAWYER IN YOUR AREA.

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124068 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 4:55 PM
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BG, all in all, it appears there was some sloppy work being performed, starting with the inability of the closing attorney/escrow company to check the documents for accuracy.

I am glad all is well now.

Donna

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124069 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 4:57 PM
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We're splitting hairs here. What I was inferring was that the old GFE was not long applicable. I don't care whether a new or a revised one was submitted, but the old one was no longer valid.

Donna

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124070 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 4:58 PM
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JAFO, if the lender included the wife's income in the scheme of things, then they would require the property be in both names, and the mortgage signed by both.

Donna

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124071 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 5:00 PM
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South Carolina is an equitable property state, not a community property state. I am wondering if BG may live in a community property state and that the reason the mortgage company required the wife's name and signature to be on the mortgage.

BG in what state is the property located?

Donna

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124072 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 5:26 PM
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Donna405: "JAFO, if the lender included the wife's income in the scheme of things, then they would require the property be in both names, and the mortgage signed by both."

What do you mean by the mortgage?

The Note or the Mortgage/Deed of Trust?

If the wife's income is included in the loan, then I understand why we she needs to execute the Note. The Note is the promise to pay the loan.

The Mortgage/Deed of Trust provides the lien on real property (generally speaking) and in gneral provides the if the Note is not paid, then you may foreclose upon the real estate. If the wife did not own the property, why (i.e., for what legal reason) would her signature need to be on the Mortgage/Deed of Trust?

It appears ridiculous to, completely unnecessary, and additional fee on the borrower, to make the husband transfer an interest in the real property in order to have a legal reason to force the wife to sign the Mortgaeg/Deed of Trust.

IOW, what can the lender do after this deed transfer that the lender could not have done before the transfer, assuming that both H&W executed the Note, H owned the property, and H executed and acknowledged the Mortgage/Deed of Trust?

Furthermore, even if this was a community property state, the wife could execute the Mortgage/Deed of Trust as to her community proeprty interest without the need for a deed.

Curiously, JAFO

Disclaimer

Yes, I am a lawyer, BUT THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE; it is only general information. NO CLIENT RELATIONSHIP IS INTENDED TO BE CREATED, NOR IS ANY SUCH RELATIONSHIP SO CREATED. FOR SPECIFIC LEGAL ADVICE YOU SHOULD TALK TO A LAWYER IN YOUR AREA.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124073 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 5:28 PM
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Donna405: "South Carolina is an equitable property state, not a community property state. I am wondering if BG may live in a community property state and that the reason the mortgage company required the wife's name and signature to be on the mortgage."

Even if true, still no reason to require a deed. IMHO.

Regards, JAFO

NOT LEGAL ADVICE, subject to standard disclaimer!

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124074 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 5:35 PM
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Mortgage/Deed of Trust - the security instrument. Here in SC, if the wife's income is not included in the calculations, the note is signed by the husband only. If the property is in both names, both husband wife sign the security instrument. If the wife is not a co-owner, she would not appear on the security instrument; however, I have seen a couple lately where the lender required the wife to sign, although she did not hold title. (Why? Don't ask me. Even the lender could not answer that question.)

JA, I agree with you. However, the lenders are becoming so leery, they are doing strange things, even though we advise them they are wrong. But, it does no harm for the party not owning a vested interest in the property to also sign the security instrument.

Donna

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124075 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 6:27 PM
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Donna wrote: Apparently, the lender is requiring that the property be in both yours and your DW's names, jointly. (Not unusual)

If the wife's income was used to qualify, her name must be on the Note and the Deed. She can come off the deed after the close of escrow, but not off the Note.

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124076 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 8:39 PM
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If the wife's income was used to qualify, her name must be on the Note and the Deed. She can come off the deed after the close of escrow, but not off the Note.
I don't think that's right - She's basically a cosigner - and I didn't think cosigners had to be on the deed/title. But they do have to be on the note.

Whether she already is really already the owner of 50% of the property or not I think depends on the local law and other circumstances - and I'm not a lawyer.
If she wasn't entitled to 50% of the property, it seems JAFO is right - that the mortgage company is demanding she be given 50%. (Which may or may not be important to the OP. I probably wouldn't care - but I know some people would)

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124077 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 10:23 PM
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JAFO, if the lender included the wife's income in the scheme of things, then they would require the property be in both names, and the mortgage signed by both.

Perhaps this will clarify matters a bit....

I bought the home as a single man in 1997, then married in 1999. We have since refi'd several times, often citing both our incomes (with mine being substantially larger than DW's). In 2005, I took a buyout and we began living on her income while I went to grad school. In 2007, I completed my MBA and began adjunct teaching. We refi'd again in 2010, citing DW's income but nobody said anything about a title change. In our refi this year, we cited DW's income as the primary source (but also added my modest pension).

I can see Donna's point in all this. If the deed was truly in my name and I died, then the loan would unsecured and DW would have no incentive to pay (other than perhaps a damaged credit score).

BG

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124078 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 10:26 PM
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Having read through the rest of the posts...

We live in TX and I have/had no problems signing something putting DW on the deed.

BG

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124079 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/1/2012 11:05 PM
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If the deed was truly in my name and I died, then the loan would unsecured and DW would have no incentive to pay

No - the loan would still be secured by the property.
and if you leave her the house in your will, she would have the incentive to pay - or lose the house to foreclosure.
If the house was sold, the mortgage holder would get paid off at that time.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124080 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 12:10 AM
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Donna405: "Mortgage/Deed of Trust - the security instrument. Here in SC, if the wife's income is not included in the calculations, the note is signed by the husband only. If the property is in both names, both husband wife sign the security instrument. If the wife is not a co-owner, she would not appear on the security instrument; however, I have seen a couple lately where the lender required the wife to sign, although she did not hold title. (Why? Don't ask me. Even the lender could not answer that question.)"

So we are in agreement.

"JA, I agree with you. However, the lenders are becoming so leery, they are doing strange things, even though we advise them they are wrong. But, it does no harm for the party not owning a vested interest in the property to also sign the security instrument."

I would suggest that it would depend upon ow the Mortgage/Deed of Trust is written.

For example, if the Mortgage/Deed of Trust contained a representation that "each party who executed this Mortgage/Deed of Trust owns an undivided interest in the Property" then the non-owning party is in breach from day 1; and if there is no notice and cure peiord for breach of representation/ misrepresentation, then the lender can default and accelerate more or less at will.

Regards, JAFO

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124081 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 12:14 AM
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BlueGrits: "I can see Donna's point in all this. If the deed was truly in my name and I died, then the loan would unsecured"

No.

"and DW would have no incentive to pay (other than perhaps a damaged credit score)."

She would have an incentive to pay (1) if she wanted to keep the house and (2) to avoid personal liability for executing the note (subject to any applicable state law limitations).

Regards, JAFO

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124082 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 12:30 AM
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Hi, again, JA. The Mortgages here state that each party has an interest in the property, not an undivided interest. Being a spouse gives the other spouse an interest in the property, although not a vested interest.

Donna

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124083 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 2:48 AM
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foo1bar wrote: Whether she already is really already the owner of 50% of the property or not I think depends on the local law and other circumstances

Think the lender and/or investor's guidelines have anything at all to do with this?

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124084 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 4:25 AM
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BlueGrits: "I can see Donna's point in all this. If the deed was truly in my name and I died, then the loan would unsecured"

JAF: No.

I was thinking of the lender being concerned about this scenario: If I were to die with the deed only in my name, my will could bequeath the home to, say, one of my sisters. My sister would then have the home and DW would still be responsible for the loan (which would no longer be secured).

Or would my half of the loan be a claim against my estate and have to be paid off from my individual assets (such as RIRAs, IRAs, etc)?


NOTE: All the above is theoretical; I had/have no reservations about putting DW on the deed and, in any event, will her my interest in the home upon my death.


BG

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124085 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 9:56 AM
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I was thinking of the lender being concerned about this scenario: If I were to die with the deed only in my name, my will could bequeath the home to, say, one of my sisters. My sister would then have the home and DW would still be responsible for the loan (which would no longer be secured).

Or would my half of the loan be a claim against my estate and have to be paid off from my individual assets (such as RIRAs, IRAs, etc)?


From personal experience, even when you have everything exactly as it should be, it can be a mess. It took me a year to get my husband's name off one of the mortgages and that was only after the involvement of the state's attny general. It took me about 10 minutes and $11 to get his name off two deeds. This was all as jt tenants with rights of survivorship and as co-borrowers.

I would have your estate planning in order and then not worry about the what-ifs.

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124086 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 11:36 AM
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"Whether she already is really already the owner of 50% of the property or not I think depends on the local law and other circumstances"

Think the lender and/or investor's guidelines have anything at all to do with this?


No.
The lender's guidelines do NOT determine whether someone is an owner of a property - law determines that.

The lender's guidelines determine whether they'll make a loan, which is a quite separate question.
But you're avoiding the question I posed earlier - does a cosigner have to be on the deed/title? If not, I think that's what the wife would essentially be if she's not on the deed.

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Author: gsgreen Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124087 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 11:58 AM
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Let's just state it like it is. The government created the mortgage mess by requiring/encouraging loans to unqualified persons and have now made it a nightmare for qualified persons to get mortgaes by the institution of new, confusing and insanely restrictive rules.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124088 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 2:54 PM
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BlueGrits:

BlueGrits (previously}: {{{"I can see Donna's point in all this. If the deed was truly in my name and I died, then the loan would unsecured"}}}

JAFO: <<<No.>>>

"I was thinking of the lender being concerned about this scenario: If I were to die with the deed only in my name, my will could bequeath the home to, say, one of my sisters. My sister would then have the home and DW would still be responsible for the loan (which would no longer be secured)."

You iste would have teh home subject to the mortgage/deed of trust. If the debt were not paid, your sister would likely be foreclosed upon and would no longer have the home.

"Or would my half of the loan be a claim against my estate and have to be paid off from my individual assets (such as RIRAs, IRAs, etc)?"

What "half of the loan"? You signed as borrower, and are in all probability jointly and severally liable for 100% of the debt.

Theoretical Note noted.

Regards, JAFO

STILL NOT LEGAL ADVICE; subject to standard disclaimer.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124089 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 2:57 PM
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gsgreen: "Let's just state it like it is. The government created the mortgage mess by requiring/encouraging loans to unqualified persons"

no one required lenders to make loans.

"and have now made it a nightmare for qualified persons to get mortgages by the institution of new, confusing and insanely restrictive rules."

Generally better not to attribute to malice what can also be explained by stupidity. I suspect the problem for BG is at the lender level.

Regards, JAFO

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124091 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 5:26 PM
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BG, the Mortgage/Deed of Trust is the security instrument and that is what secures the loan, not the signor. If the loan is in default, no matter to whom the property may go upon your death, it will be foreclosed.

Donna

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124092 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/2/2012 5:29 PM
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As a real estate paralegal, in SC, I always have the closing attorney advise the borrower/purchaser to have a Deed prepared vesting title in the couple as Joint Tenants with Rights of Survivorship. Here in SC, all that is required to get the property in the surviving spouse's name is to file a Death Certificate at the recording office.

This could be true of gay couples, friends, family etc., as long as the title is vested as JTROS.

Now, if there is a problem in the relationships, the couple would have to redeed the property as tenants in common, but usually that is no problem.

Donna

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124093 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/3/2012 1:02 AM
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foo1bar wrote: No. The lender's guidelines do NOT determine whether someone is an owner of a property - law determines that.

Many lenders during the sub-prime lending frenzy wrote mortgages without having all the owners sign the note. In that case, the lender doesn't have full interest--only the interest of the person who signed the note.

So, again, are you sure the lender doesn't have a say about who goes on title when the lender's holding the bag for the indebtedness?

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124094 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/3/2012 5:35 AM
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So, again, are you sure the lender doesn't have a say about who goes on title when the lender's holding the bag for the indebtedness?

There are two different questions that you seem intent on confusing.

1> does the lender get to make up it's own law on who owns a property (and expect any judge to recognize that instead of established law regarding property ownership)? No - they don't.
They simply are not the arbiter of whether someone is already an owner of a property or not. I'm sure that they can (and do) hire people that can tell them with 99.999% accuracy who the owners of a property are based on the actual law.

2> Do their guidelines determine whether they'll make a loan? YES - as I've already stated - yes they do. And they can make whatever requirement they want as long as it is legal (ex. non-descriminatory)

You're still avoiding the question I posed to you though:
Does a cosigner have to be on the deed/title? If not, I think that's what the wife would essentially be if she's not on the deed.

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124095 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/3/2012 5:44 AM
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Many lenders during the sub-prime lending frenzy wrote mortgages without having all the owners sign the note. In that case, the lender doesn't have full interest--only the interest of the person who signed the note.

I don't think that's accurate.
I think it would be accurate if you said that they need the signatures on the deed of trust. And if the deed of trust doesn't have all the signatures, they only have the partial ownership.
Did you really mean the note? Or did you mean deed of trust, and mis-typed?
(I expect since you deal with mortgages as part of your daily work you're more familiar with the difference between the two than most people)

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124096 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/3/2012 12:33 PM
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foo1bar wrote: I expect since you deal with mortgages as part of your daily work you're more familiar with the difference between the two than most people.

That's right, and the lender can impose ANY REQUIREMENT IT WISHES. The consumer is free to accept or reject the lender's requirements.

For example, many lenders won't lend to Trusts, even though Trusts are perfectly legal. What to do? Take the property out of the Trust, close the loan, and immediately put the property back in the Trust.

Does the lender's underwriting guideline REQUIRE that the borrower and co-borrower (or co-signer...whatever you want to call him) be on the Note and the Deed? Then that's the way it must be.

He who has the gold makes the rules.

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124097 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/3/2012 5:43 PM
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We must remember that the Borrower and the Mortgagor may be two different people. The Borrower is the one the lender uses for income, etc. The Mortgagor is the one who owns the property. I have many cases in which professionals, mostly doctors, do not own the property but are the borrower. Due to liabiity issues, the wife owns the property. In that case, the husband (Borrower) signs the note and the wife signs the Mortgage.

Donna

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124098 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/3/2012 6:25 PM
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CCinOC:

foo1bar wrote: No. The lender's guidelines do NOT determine whether someone is an owner of a property - law determines that.

"Many lenders during the sub-prime lending frenzy wrote mortgages without having all the owners sign the note. In that case, the lender doesn't have full interest--only the interest of the person who signed the note."

A full interest in what? Executng the Note does not convey, assign or lien any interest in real property (unless it is a very peculiar Note).

Signing the note creates personal liability for the debt (subject to any state law limitations).

Regards, JAFO

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124099 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/3/2012 6:30 PM
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Donna wrote: We must remember that the Borrower and the Mortgagor may be two different people.

In Fannie Mae nomenclature, the "mortgagor" is the borrower.

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Author: Donna405 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 124100 of 127262
Subject: Re: Refi Woes Continue.... Date: 9/3/2012 11:08 PM
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In the Fannie Mae Mortgages I have closed, the Borrower and the Mortgagor are listed. The Borrower being the person who signed the note, and the Mortgagor being the person who owns the property.\

Therefore, the two are connected.

Donna

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