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Author: locul1 Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 76418  
Subject: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 4:48 PM
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Wifeand I both retired in our 70s. Presently renting lovely apt 1300 per month after selling home 4years ago. Have had 1 rent increase of $40. Have total assets over 1 mill, social security,more than adequate income from pension,IRAs, dividends and interest Diversitied investments, approx 65% stocks,35% bonds. Is worth buying a condo now or staying put? Children will be taken care of from Estate Planning. Do not consider a home as investment. You opinions, advice and reasoning please. Advise Email ljculiner@comcastnet
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Author: TTRoberts Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38799 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 6:03 PM
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<< Wifeand I both retired in our 70s. Presently renting lovely apt 1300 per month after selling home 4years ago. Have had 1 rent increase of $40. Have total assets over 1 mill, social security,more than adequate income from pension,IRAs, dividends and interest Diversitied investments, approx 65% stocks,35% bonds. Is worth buying a condo now or staying put? Children will be taken care of from Estate Planning. Do not consider a home as investment. You opinions, advice and reasoning please. >>

Well, I feel it all really just DEPENDS . . . .

It depends on things like, whether the cost of ownership is less than renting. As I'm sure you know, there's more expenses to the home that PITI (Principle, Interest, Taxes & Insurance) and maybe some homeowner's association fees for a condo.

Also, it depends on just how you want to pay for the home. Are you thinking of paying cash or on carrying a mortgage??? If you do buy a home, I would argue that carrying a mortgage would be better as it keeps you're cash invested rather than just putting it somewhere where it doesn't earn anything.

What about flexibility in movement??? When you rent, it's easy to just up and move to somewhere else. When owning a home it's all that hassle of selling and maybe buying all over again.

On the other hand, rents tend to go up over time. If that's a big issue for you, then you've got to weigh this against those costs of ownership. But with the assets and security you seem to have and no apparent concerns for income taxes, it seems to me renting probably works pretty well for retiree with your resources. Over all, I feel it's really a matter of personal preferences more than a financial issue for you.


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Author: Watty56 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38802 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 6:59 PM
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.... Presently renting lovely apt...

If it's not broken then don't fix it.

If you move you may not like the new place as much and you loose a lot of flexibility if your situation changes.

If you were ten years or so younger the financial considerations might be more compelling but it is likely that by the time you and your wife are your 80's a move to a different apartment in an assisted living situation will look good.

Greg


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Author: 2old4bs Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38804 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 7:16 PM
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If it's not broken then don't fix it.

I second that motion.

As Greg stated, you'd lose flexibility, and why take on the headaches of ownership? As a long-time condo owner I can tell you that there are headaches, even in condos.

You two sound like you're OK right where you are.

2old

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Author: yobria Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38805 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 7:30 PM
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Agree with the group- it doesn't matter financially. Make the decision based on non-financial factors.

Nick






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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38806 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 7:32 PM
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2old4bs writes,

<<If it's not broken then don't fix it. >>

I second that motion.

As Greg stated, you'd lose flexibility, and why take on the headaches of ownership? As a long-time condo owner I can tell you that there are headaches, even in condos.

You two sound like you're OK right where you are.


Me too.

Even though I have a retirement portfolio well into 7 figures and I could pay cash for a large home, I still rent an inexpensive apartment.

You couldn't pay me enough money to put up with the hassles of owning a single-family home or a condo.

intercst


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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38807 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 7:59 PM
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You couldn't pay me enough money to put up with the hassles of owning a single-family home or a condo.

intercst


Ok then, I have a question. I am like intercst: A lifelong renter (except for a very labour intensive country house in upstate NY many yrs ago)

I do like the simplicity of renting BUT I am getting a little sick and tired of the genetically loutish behaviour of almost everybody else who rents! Not necessarilly loud parties and such but just constant door slamming, foot stomping, and the other not so subliminal messages that make me aware of he presence of people I should not be aware of. (And this is a pretty upper scale type of place)

What hassles are there in owning a condo? Other than the obvious ones like you have to fox your own leaky faucets and such.


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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38808 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 8:20 PM
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I do like the simplicity of renting BUT I am getting a little sick and tired of the genetically loutish behaviour of almost everybody else who rents! Not necessarilly loud parties and such but just constant door slamming, foot stomping, and the other not so subliminal messages that make me aware of he presence of people I should not be aware of. (And this is a pretty upper scale type of place)

I once lived in an apartment which was a town house, end unit. The front faced on the parking lot, and the rear on an open meadow, complete with pond. Like being in the country.

cliff
... last time I lived in an apartment.

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Author: DoLoop Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38809 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 8:22 PM
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...door slamming, foot stomping, and the other not so subliminal messages that make me aware of he presence of people I should not be aware of...

Living in a condo isn't going to change that! To get away from that, you'd have to move to a single-family residence, I would think.

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38810 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 8:28 PM
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FCorelli asks,

You couldn't pay me enough money to put up with the hassles of owning a single-family home or a condo.

intercst

Ok then, I have a question. I am like intercst: A lifelong renter (except for a very labour intensive country house in upstate NY many yrs ago)

I do like the simplicity of renting BUT I am getting a little sick and tired of the genetically loutish behaviour of almost everybody else who rents! Not necessarilly loud parties and such but just constant door slamming, foot stomping, and the other not so subliminal messages that make me aware of he presence of people I should not be aware of. (And this is a pretty upper scale type of place)

What hassles are there in owning a condo? Other than the obvious ones like you have to fox your own leaky faucets and such.


Leaky faucets are the least of your concerns.

I'd be more worried about the type of people who end up on the Board of Directors of your condo's Homeowner's Association. The anal-retentive types that are usually attracted to these positions of power can be every bit as loutish as your "rental" neighbors. And, of course, if you decide to leave, selling a condo is more expensive than waiting for your apartment lease to expire.

intercst



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Author: yobria Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38811 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 8:45 PM
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>>I am getting a little sick and tired of the genetically loutish behaviour of almost everybody else who rents!

Yes, people talk about renting vs owning like it was purely a financial decision. What they don't say is condos afford, in general, a far higher quality of life than apartments.

Apartments are designed to be as cheap to build/maintain as possible, so you get thin walls, cheap (or no) appliances, bad finishings, etc. You also tend to live with shiftless, "renter types".

Condos are designed to sell for the highest possible price. So you get quality construction, plenty of light, nice fixtures, etc. And you'll get higher quality neighbors.

On the other hand, I did get a $55,000 bill last year for mold remediation/fixing water leaks in my San Francisco condo, so ownership isn't perfect either!

Nick

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Author: FuskieFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Ticker Guide SC1 Red Winner of the 2010 Rule Breakers Challenge Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38812 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 8:47 PM
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I'd be more worried about the type of people who end up on the Board of Directors of your condo's Homeowner's Association. The anal-retentive types that are usually attracted to these positions of power can be every bit as loutish as your "rental" neighbors. And, of course, if you decide to leave, selling a condo is more expensive than waiting for your apartment lease to expire.

Hey now, I was on the board of my HOA last year and I can tell you first hand my anal did not retent anything!

Fuskie
Who was attracted to the position out of a desire to improve the property, not lord over it...

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38814 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 10:23 PM
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I'd be more worried about the type of people who end up on the Board of Directors of your condo's Homeowner's Association. The anal-retentive types that are usually attracted to these positions of power can be every bit as loutish as your "rental" neighbors. And, of course, if you decide to leave, selling a condo is more expensive than waiting for your apartment lease to expire.

Intercst

Hey now, I was on the board of my HOA last year and I can tell you first hand my anal did not retent anything!

Fuskie
Who was attracted to the position out of a desire to improve the property, not lord over it...



Yes I can dig all that BUT... I am not afraid of dreaconian Hitlerian rules as long as they apply to everybody. And the paralles of apts vs condos depends on what kind of condo

I was thinking alomng the lines of what another poster said ref condos at least getting a higher class of lout, as it were.

I still like renting tho. If I had the bread I'd rent4 apartaments. Mine and the ones that adjoin it. The best of both worlds and I wouldnt even have to move

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Author: FuskieFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Ticker Guide SC1 Red Winner of the 2010 Rule Breakers Challenge Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38815 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 10:24 PM
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We discourage renting.

Fuskie
Who does have standards, even if he does not always meet them...

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38816 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/28/2004 10:30 PM
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We discourage renting.

Fuskie
Who does have standards, even if he does not always meet them...


Of all the rules THIS is probably the best one quality of life-wise. I have no hang-ups about this one. Ot crack labs or pets. AS LONG AS I DONT HEAR THEM (Well I was joking about the crack labs)


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Author: activeREinvestor Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38817 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/29/2004 5:59 AM
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I do like the simplicity of renting BUT I am getting a little sick and tired of the genetically loutish behaviour of almost everybody else who rents! Not necessarilly loud parties and such but just constant door slamming, foot stomping, and the other not so subliminal messages that make me aware of he presence of people I should not be aware of.

1. Look into moving to a better location

2. Consider a building that is made up of townhomes or condo's. One that is majority owner-occupied.

3. See if you can limit the number of people around you. Top floor, end unit, townhomes with two shared walls but nothing else close by.

I rent condo's in a building where I am the only person renting. All the other units are owner occupied. One level units, lifts and on the top floor. I live in another unit down the hall. It does seem to make a difference compared to some apartments I have lived in.

Just an idea.

BTW - The building was built as lofts for the young and trendy. What has happened is the more mature buyers have moved in as they want a second home in the area and a place further south where the sun is more common. Condo living seems to be a good fit for such folks. This also reduces the noise as the owners are not even there a lot of the time. As many units are on one level, people with mobility concerns are happy.

John


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Author: activeREinvestor Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38818 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/29/2004 6:03 AM
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Lots of good advice.

Look at one other factor.

Make some guesses as to the rent increases over the coming years. Add that up and decide just how many years you will be living there.

Then look at the transaction costs of buying and then later selling (you or your estate).

I suspect that there is no case where the costs are balanced. If you do not really care about a possible upside in the value then continue renting and enjoy the lifestyle.

I hope this was of some value.

John

PS. I own multiple homes and rental properties so I have no concerns about buying. I also have rented when that was the right thing to do. Situations change and the right answer is a personal decision.


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Author: TwoCybers Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38820 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/29/2004 8:59 AM
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Lots of interesting posts on TMF. I do not see any compelling financial issues or advantages.

However there are issues that in my view are big. Sometime someone will have to deal with your residence. It is a bunch easier to tell the landlord we/they are gone then to sell property. The sale issue can be hard in times of rising interest rates (that seems likely when the federal spending catches up with us) or an economic down turn. This will be double hard if the house is empty because of a death or move into say a nursing home.

Additionally if you suffer a gradual health decline it will get harder and probably less interesting to deal with the maintenance issues of owning a house/condo.

These concerns would be less if you happen to live near the family members (or others) who will be dealing with your estate or affairs should you become incapacitated.

Gordon
Atlanta

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38823 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/29/2004 11:50 AM
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yobria:

>>I am getting a little sick and tired of the genetically loutish behaviour of almost everybody else who rents!<<

"Yes, people talk about renting vs owning like it was purely a financial decision. What they don't say is condos afford, in general, a far higher quality of life than apartments."

Really?

"Apartments are designed to be as cheap to build/maintain as possible, so you get thin walls, cheap (or no) appliances, bad finishings, etc."

Not necessarily.

"You also tend to live with shiftless, "renter types"."

Lovely stereotyping.

"Condos are designed to sell for the highest possible price. So you get quality construction, plenty of light, nice fixtures, etc."

Condos are designed for the developer to make the most money, especially as ROI. It does not necessarily arise from building the most expensive condos.

"And you'll get higher quality neighbors."

Really?

"On the other hand, I did get a $55,000 bill last year for mold remediation/fixing water leaks in my San Francisco condo, so ownership isn't perfect either!"

One could pay alot of rent with 55k.

And with condos you run the risk that too many will turn into rental units, so you will again be living next to those "shiftless, renter types" and you may find it more difficult to sell to an interested owner-occupant because such interested party can no longer gett he best financing if more than 30% (IIRC) of the units are not owner-occupied.

I agree that condos have their own paricular issues, but they are not SFH, and they are not necessarily better than renting (especially because one can rent a condo or SFH, too).

Regards, JAFO
(posted before reading entire thread)

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38825 of 76418
Subject: Re: Rent vs Buy Date: 1/29/2004 1:52 PM
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Ref Jafo31's # 38823

I'm gonna have to go with Jafo on this one. My current apt is already in a nice area. Toney 'burb of Omaha maybe 3 miles from Warren Buffet's house. It is well built not a cheapie as apartments go. In fact it's the best apartment I have ever lived in from that standpoint. But it is not a concrete soundproof bunker either. And, as someone else suggested, I already am on the tippy--toppiest floor. If I upgrade to a townhome/super ritzy glitzy "Frasieresque" building then the rent becomes the same as house payments and that is a whole new calculus

I have never been impressed by the quality of neighbors in either condos or residential neighborhoods. Excepting the Urban Blightsvilles on one end and the Doctor/Lawyer neighborhoods, and Martha Stewart compounds on the other there is little dfference. One reason I like to rent is IF it gets too bad I can split in a few months, whereas in a home I am stuck. It's all the potential problems of renting with none of the benefits. And all the drags of owning with only a hope of the benefits.

The main quality of life thingies that keep recurring are "noise too close". I think if I had some space, not acres but just a non-connectedness, much of the "environmental stimulation" that gets under my skin would be ameliorated. Also, I hate the care and feeding of houses. So a low maintenence situation is important. Well, also I am cheap so I dont want to pay a lot!

Thanx for all the chiming in. Was nice to talk housing and money instead of politics for awhile


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