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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 61100  
Subject: Restructure Academia Date: 4/27/2009 1:54 AM
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....some interesting ideas in this op-ed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/opinion/27taylor.html?page...

2. Abolish permanent departments, even for undergraduate education, and create problem-focused programs. These constantly evolving programs would have sunset clauses, and every seven years each one should be evaluated and either abolished, continued or significantly changed. It is possible to imagine a broad range of topics around which such zones of inquiry could be organized: Mind, Body, Law, Information, Networks, Language, Space, Time, Media, Money, Life and Water.

</snip>


I think we'd need a special zone for 3-for-1 studies.

intercst
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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18342 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/27/2009 1:14 PM
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Totally amazing lib rant by this author..let's parse it a bit

"If American higher education is to thrive in the 21st century, colleges and universities, like Wall Street and Detroit, must be rigorously regulated and completely restructured."

Well, the typical NY times lib rant....must be 'regulated' by the government to choose what can/will be taught!

"Responsible teaching and scholarship must become cross-disciplinary and cross-cultural. "

I get it...engineers need 40 hours of PC lib think touchy feely classes....instead of learning actual engineering and science. Got it......Can't have those engineers building bridges unless they have the ability to worry about 'cultural' and 'religious' things they need to be aware of, and each and every engineer be 'cross trained' in politics, group-think' etc!

"Abolish permanent departments, even for undergraduate education, and create problem-focused programs. These constantly evolving programs would have sunset clauses, and every seven years each one should be evaluated and either abolished, continued or significantly changed. It is possible to imagine a broad range of topics around which such zones of inquiry could be organized: Mind, Body, Law, Information, Networks, Language, Space, Time, Media, Money, Life and Water."

Yeah..I can just see it now......I got a degree from this prestigous college in 'Media'......or 'Money' or better yet, in 'Life'

Hey, we already have all these programs..they are called liberal arts colleges with liberal arts degrees...you can spend 10 years learning about being "Politically COrrect"..and be useless upon graduation, other than in government jobs.






"Consider, for example, a Water program. In the coming decades, water will become a more pressing problem than oil, and the quantity, quality and distribution of water will pose significant scientific, technological and ecological difficulties as well as serious political and economic challenges."

OK......but I love the reference to 'scientific' and 'technological' problems.....


"These vexing practical problems cannot be adequately addressed without also considering important philosophical, religious and ethical issues. "

Says who? When you need to build a reservoir on public land, you don't need to get the blessing of the priest.....or worry about whether some fish, somewhere, that you have yet to find, might be 'disturbed'. Only in a 'PC' world. If you need water, you need it.

You rally think anyone other than the government is going to hire someone with a degree in Water from a lib arts college? where the cirirculum has been determined by the likes of a NY Times opinion writer? ha....



"A Water program would bring together people in the humanities, arts, social and natural sciences with representatives from professional schools like medicine, law, business, engineering, social work, theology and architecture."

Wait a minute. You just did away those medicine, law, business, and engineering schools. And architecture schools. They were all reformulated to the PC...and study things like 'water' and 'pollution' and 'food' and silly things like that. You did away with engineering programs where you trained people to learn civil engineering, hydrology, geology, materials, etc.....remember!



"Through the intersection of multiple perspectives and approaches, new theoretical insights will develop and unexpected practical solutions will emerge."

Right...we just sit around, smoking pot, thinking about politically correct solutions.......

t.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18350 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/27/2009 7:27 PM
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<<"Responsible teaching and scholarship must become cross-disciplinary and cross-cultural. "

I get it...engineers need 40 hours of PC lib think touchy feely classes....instead of learning actual engineering and science. Got it......Can't have those engineers building bridges unless they have the ability to worry about 'cultural' and 'religious' things they need to be aware of, and each and every engineer be 'cross trained' in politics, group-think' etc!
>>


I remember the reaction of an EE major I knew when the University of Washington proposed more arts and social science requirements for graduating students.

He said he though that broadening the minds of students was an excellent idea, and proposed that everyone graduating, regardless of major, be required to complete a year of regular colege calculus and a year of calculus based physics before graduating.



Seattle Pioneer
(Political Science major)

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18351 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/27/2009 8:05 PM
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"I remember the reaction of an EE major I knew when the University of Washington proposed more arts and social science requirements for graduating students."

we had to take one 'humanities' course a semester..... boring as heck, as a class full of engineers and scientists really didn't get into philosophy, cultural anthropology, literature, etc........

I made it through a Master's Degree program and didn't have to take a single 'humanities' course......needed 11 to graduate, wound up taking 14, got degree, then took another 6 or 7 engineering or telecom law/history and similar...... no touchy feely 'British Authors of the 17th century' or 'Black History Studies"......or 'The Impact of American Aggression in the Suppression of Cultural Identity in the World'...which is probably a course at Lib University now...




t.

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18352 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/27/2009 9:10 PM
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telegraph writes,

we had to take one 'humanities' course a semester..... boring as heck, as a class full of engineers and scientists really didn't get into philosophy, cultural anthropology, literature, etc........

I made it through a Master's Degree program and didn't have to take a single 'humanities' course......needed 11 to graduate, wound up taking 14, got degree, then took another 6 or 7 engineering or telecom law/history and similar...... no touchy feely 'British Authors of the 17th century' or 'Black History Studies"......or 'The Impact of American Aggression in the Suppression of Cultural Identity in the World'...which is probably a course at Lib University now...

</snip>


Why does this sound a lot like Sarah Palin boasting about her ignorance?

intercst

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18354 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/27/2009 9:21 PM
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""Why does this sound a lot like Sarah Palin boasting about her ignorance?"

Maybe these days they don't teach much in high school. Sad.

Back in the 1950s and 60s, you had 4 years of US and World History.....

You had 3 or 4 years of English, including reading Shakespeare, poetry from 10-20 authors. You actually, horrors, read entire books and discussed them in class....by the dozes.

We had all sorts of required courses, besides math/algebra/geometry/trig and intro to calc. We had shop course in metal working and woodworking.

I guess intercst and the current generation is so busy studying being 'PC" they don't read books or learn much in high school. That's a shame.

If engineers need to learn about something, by the time they graduate from high school they have the ability to read and understand books. They don't need to be spoon feed indoctroctrination in the lib way for 4 years in 'lib arts colleges'.......

And the last thing intercst wants to be driving on is a bridge where the chief engineer spent more time studying 'the faults of George Bush' in college rather than strength of materials and bridge building.

The folly of the entire article was when the author talked about 'water majors' (after he reorganized EVERY college) to be working with 'professionals' in other fields. Huh? If everyone got a degree like "water' where you spend 80% of your time on touchy-feely PC crap, no one would be qualified to be a professional in civil engineering or architecture or medicine.

I can just see intercsts new doc......hey, I took 50% of my courses in 'Doctoring' at Lib University learning about how to be politically correct when I try to diagnose and cure you!.....


t.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18355 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/27/2009 9:22 PM
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<<Why does this sound a lot like Sarah Palin boasting about her ignorance?

intercst

>>


Ummm. My nephew took an upper division class on the Sociology of Gender and now has declared Sociology as a major. I wonder if he will wind up doing the academic equivalent of going over Niagra Falls in a barrel.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18356 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/27/2009 9:26 PM
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<<
I guess intercst and the current generation is so busy studying being 'PC" they don't read books or learn much in high school. That's a shame.
>>


I had a math teacher once who told the class his math training handicapped him when it came to general reading. He was in the habit of reading anything the way he's read a math paper or article----tirelessly parsing every detail. It might take an hour or more to get through a page.

Maybe he was pulling our leg, but he SOUNDED serious!



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18357 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/27/2009 9:36 PM
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"I had a math teacher once who told the class his math training handicapped him when it came to general reading. He was in the habit of reading anything the way he's read a math paper or article----tirelessly parsing every detail. It might take an hour or more to get through a page."

Some people's brain works that way.

It wasn't that the 'math training' caused it...it was he took up math because that is the way his brain was wired.....

Other people read the whole book and haven't a clue what it said after they read it...they remember a few snippets and that is it....'to be or not to be'....but they don't even remember what it was that 'to be or not to be' was about...

or they 're-interpret' the book in a PC light, putting in an entire new meaning to it....obviously, Shakespeare had hidden meaning throughout which shows how AMerican Agression would lead to the Taliban in Pakistan taking over 2 provinces and headed toward the capital city they will take over this summer. Just as clear as Nostradamus....


t.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18363 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/28/2009 8:07 AM
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Why does this sound a lot like Sarah Palin boasting about her ignorance? - intercst


LOL! I'm like the anti-Tele. One of the benefits of working at the University of Tennessee is that we were allowed to take up to 8 semester hours every semester for free. That's one benefit that I didn't let slip past me. Since I worked there for over 17 years needless to say I have taken a plethora of classes. The last time I counted I had over 307 hours of classes.

One subject that I have always been endlessly fascinated by was Anthropology. I've probably got over 30 graduate semester hours of paleoanthropology courses, at least enough for a minor. I also took 30 hours in Agricultural Economics, and I've also got over 30 graduate hours in Education. I was also allowed to take a few courses in Veterinary Medicine (by special permission).

Probably one of the most interesting courses I took while at UT was a Graduate course in Ornithology. What we did was travel in two vans to the South Carolina and Georgia coast and watch sea birds. We got to stay in an old mansion on one of the Georgia sea islands for several days which was also a lot of fun. They had cooks there that fed us a lot of shrimp which I loved. In the evenings Dr. Stuart Pimm would lecture to us about ecology and birds. That was one of the most fun courses that I have ever taken. It was a blast.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18364 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/28/2009 8:11 AM
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Ummm. My nephew took an upper division class on the Sociology of Gender and now has declared Sociology as a major. I wonder if he will wind up doing the academic equivalent of going over Niagra Falls in a barrel. - Seattle Pioneer


Going to college and living in a college town is a blast. The University is like a womb. It's a nice soft protected place where you can grow and learn without the cutthroat pressures of the real world. When I look back over my life the happiest time for me was when I was a student at the University of Georgia in Athens, Georgia.

Life is about the Journey, not the Destination. We are only here for a little while and then we shed our physical bodies and go back to whatever place it is we come from. The only thing we get to take with us are our memories.

Of all the money I have spent in my life the money I least regret is what I spent on travel and education. Those memories will be with me forever. The money I most regret is what I spent on vehicles, trucks, vans, cars, and boats.

Art

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Author: MacNugget Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18384 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/28/2009 2:14 PM
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no touchy feely 'British Authors of the 17th century' or 'Black History Studies"......or 'The Impact of American Aggression in the Suppression of Cultural Identity in the World'...which is probably a course at Lib University now...

Where did you go to school? The University of Hyperbole?

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Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/28/2009 4:55 PM
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He said he though that broadening the minds of students was an excellent idea, and proposed that everyone graduating, regardless of major, be required to complete a year of regular colege calculus and a year of calculus based physics before graduating.


I agree with that idea. I think anyone getting a college degree should have a basic understanding of calculus, even if you're getting a degree in English. I'd knock the requirement down to a semester instead of a year, but there are certain things every college-educated individual should know.

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Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/28/2009 6:22 PM
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"Where did you go to school? The University of Hyperbole? "

You do know what book Chavez gave to Obama?

http://mb.com.ph/articles/203519/chavez-book-gift-obama-tops...

"PORT OF SPAIN (AFP) – A book accusing the United States of being a neo-colonial bully in the Americas has rocketed up the sales charts, after a copy was given as a gift by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to US leader Barack Obama.

The book, “The Open Veins of Latin America” was given by Chavez, a longtime US critic, to Obama at an Americas summit in Trinidad and Tobago.

The English version of the tome, well-known in leftist political circles, catapulted from 734th place to second place in just 24 hours on the online bookseller Amazon.com.

The work in its original Spanish language had an even more spectacular ascent, from 47,468th place to 283th. It also showed substantial increased sales on the website of online bookseller Barnes and Noble.

The work by Uruguayan author Eduardo Galeano is about the region’s colonial past and exploitation by the world’s big powers – themes hammered constantly by Chavez, who frequently accuses the United States of “imperialist” policies."

You really don't think that Lib University and likely every single Univ in CA, and most of NYC ones (Columbia, NYC) aren't coming up with a semester course in how the US raped the America's?

They'll be salivating like mad dogs with their planned ciricula on using this book as the main instruction book for the course....



t.

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Author: crazygood Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18396 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/28/2009 7:18 PM
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Because of the way the brain is designed, it is actually very, very beneficial to have that good, old-fashioned, well-rounded education.

The brain is, to make it very simple, is designed like a tree, with a trunk and many branches. Each new thing someone learns creates or strengthens a branch of the tree.

This is not to say that specialization is a bad thing. The world definitely needs nerds! We need engineers, mathematicians, musicians, doctors, writers, etc.

But an engineer who learns to read and love literature might discover Jules Verne or Arthur C. Clarke who popularized or even invented certain technologies. Jules Verne: diving gear, video phones and plenty of other cool stuff.

Arthur C. Clarke: the gravity slingshot, artificial intelligence, nanofibers, etc.

Without any actual proof I would speculate that those ideas sparked the imagination of people who later made them into realities.

On the flip side, so much of today's cool science fiction literature is guided and informed by what is happening in the world of science.

Mathematics can be a "pure" discipline, with no practical application, but isn't mathematics really designed to be useful in the real world? Don't anthropologists and socioligists use statistics? Isn't finance based on accounting and statistics and other mathematical models?

The great philosphers guided the decisions of our great political leaders, who then built countries and societies and promoted ideas as fantastic as space travel.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18398 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/28/2009 10:30 PM
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"Because of the way the brain is designed, it is actually very, very beneficial to have that good, old-fashioned, well-rounded education."

Most people get what they need in high school. Or at least they used to...I'm not sure what PC crap they teach these days..probably six years of global warming religion taught as 'science', English classics studying things like 'American AGression in teh World', and history studying things like "American Aggression the WOrld" and "Suppression of Civil Rights by the Majority" and similar.

"The brain is, to make it very simple, is designed like a tree, with a trunk and many branches. Each new thing someone learns creates or strengthens a branch of the tree."

Yes, that is simple minded and not very good. By the time you get to college, your brain is already well formed if you bothered to study and learn in high school.

"This is not to say that specialization is a bad thing. The world definitely needs nerds! We need engineers, mathematicians, musicians, doctors, writers, etc."

So, what are you trying to say out of both sides of your mouth? Can't have it both ways, Either 90% of a program is to 'specialize' or it isn't.

"But an engineer who learns to read and love literature might discover Jules Verne or Arthur C. Clarke who popularized or even invented certain technologies."

Geez, every high school geek probably read them, and way back when read Heinlein from A to Z, and ate up all the sci -fi writers. YOu don't need a college course in Sci Fi....total waste of time UNLESS, of course, you are a writer learning the techniques of how to write good science fiction....... No engineer needs a course in science fiction lit.


" Jules Verne: diving gear, video phones and plenty of other cool stuff.
"

YOu can learn all about Jules Verne by watching movies late night on TV. Around the Earth in 80 days...... Journey to the Moon and Back.....JOurney to the Center of the Earth...etc....


"Arthur C. Clarke: the gravity slingshot, artificial intelligence, nanofibers, etc."

YOu forgot geosynchronous satellites. Read a book - a few hours. You don't need a college course on sci fi. or English classics......


"Without any actual proof I would speculate that those ideas sparked the imagination of people who later made them into realities."

IN HIGH SCHOOL>.....not in college!....unless, of course, high school s so dumbed down these days folks aren't even asked to read books?????

"On the flip side, so much of today's cool science fiction literature is guided and informed by what is happening in the world of science."

It's always been that way. Nothing new. But now it is all touchy feely PC stuff for the most part.....

"Mathematics can be a "pure" discipline, with no practical application, but isn't mathematics really designed to be useful in the real world? "

Some times yes, sometimes no.....some mathematicians spent a life time trying to prove a single theorum......totally theoretical. No practical application.

" Isn't finance based on accounting and statistics and other mathematical models?"

I assume if you get a college degree in finance , you learn more than a little bit of statistics.

"The great philosphers guided the decisions of our great political leaders, who then built countries and societies and promoted ideas as fantastic as space travel."

I don't think too many philosophers promoted space travel. Nor built countries. Or societies. I doubt whether Roosevelt consulted philosphers when the Japs invaded Pearl Harbor, nor did Hitler when he built his 'country' and 'society' or Stalin or Mao. Or Chavez or Castro. Other than Marx and Lenin...both of whom you probably have not read a single word, right?


t.

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18400 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/29/2009 2:46 AM
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Most people get what they need in high school. Or at least they used to...I'm not sure what PC crap they teach these days..probably six years of global warming religion taught as 'science', English classics studying things like 'American AGression in teh World', and history studying things like "American Aggression the WOrld" and "Suppression of Civil Rights by the Majority" and similar...

Geez, every high school geek probably read them, and way back when read Heinlein from A to Z, and ate up all the sci -fi writers. YOu don't need a college course in Sci Fi....total waste of time UNLESS, of course, you are a writer learning the techniques of how to write good science fiction....... No engineer needs a course in science fiction lit.

YOu can learn all about Jules Verne by watching movies late night on TV. Around the Earth in 80 days...... Journey to the Moon and Back.....JOurney to the Center of the Earth...etc....


Apparently some of us learned the rules of punctuation, spelling, and capitalization by watching late night TV as well.

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18401 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/29/2009 3:43 AM
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sykesix writes,

<<tele: YOu can learn all about Jules Verne by watching movies late night on TV. Around the Earth in 80 days...... Journey to the Moon and Back.....JOurney to the Center of the Earth...etc....>>

Apparently some of us learned the rules of punctuation, spelling, and capitalization by watching late night TV as well.

</snip>


Perhaps tele is channeling e e cummings?

intercst

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18407 of 61100
Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/29/2009 8:00 AM
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"Apparently some of us learned the rules of punctuation, spelling, and capitalization by watching late night TV as well."

The fingers don't work as well as they used to.

Thanks for pointing that out.

t.

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Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/29/2009 8:01 AM
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Always nice that the libs RESPOND to the points in the thread rather than make personal attacks, too!

t.

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Subject: Re: Restructure Academia Date: 4/29/2009 9:27 AM
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Perhaps tele is channeling e e cummings?

Education

In his youth, Estlin Cummings attended Cambridge Latin High School. Early stories and poems were published in the Cambridge Review, the school newspaper.

From 1911 to 1916, Cummings attended Harvard University, from which he received a B.A. degree in 1915 and a Master's degree for English and Classical Studies in 1916. While at Harvard, he befriended John Dos Passos, at one time rooming in Thayer Hall, named after the family of one of his Harvard acquaintances, Scofield Thayer, and not yet a freshman-only dormitory.[4] Several of Cummings's poems were published in the Harvard Monthly as early as 1912. Cummings himself labored on the school newspaper alongside fellow Harvard Aesthetes Dos Passos and S. Foster Damon. In 1915, his poems were published in the Harvard Advocate.

From an early age, Cummings studied Greek and Latin. His affinity for each manifests in his later works, such as XAIPE (Greek: "Rejoice!"; a 1950 collection of poetry), Anthropos (Greek: "mankind"; the title of one of his plays), and "Puella Mea" (Latin: "My Girl"; the title of his longest poem).

In his final year at Harvard, Cummings was influenced by writers such as Gertrude Stein and Ezra Pound. He graduated magna cum laude in 1916, delivering a controversial commencement address entitled "The New Art". This speech gave him his first taste of notoriety, as he managed to give the false impression that the well-liked imagist poet, Amy Lowell, whom he himself admired, was "abnormal". For this, Cummings was chastised in the newspapers. Ostracized as a result of his intellect, he turned to poetry.[citation needed] In 1920, Cummings's first published poems appeared in a collection of poetry entitled Eight Harvard Poets.


Uh. Yeah... about that... don't think so!

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