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Author: cmimis Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 75383  
Subject: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 12:11 PM
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Hello, can someone please help me. I want to find out if vanguard group for retirement is the one of the best out there? My husband and I are self-employed and we are trying to open a IRA and we don't know where to start. I did some research and I came across Vanguard and I would to have some opinion about. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE HELP ME.
Thanks
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Author: jbking Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43231 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 12:18 PM
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Greetings,

I want to find out if vanguard group for retirement is the one of the best out there?

Best for what? They do have some fine mutual funds and do have some advisors if you need some help making a decision though I would likely prefer to take independent advice from a planner found at http://www.napfa.org if I were suggesting one to get investment advice.

My husband and I are self-employed and we are trying to open a IRA and we don't know where to start.

Well, have you looked at http://www.smartmoney.com/retirement/ira/index.cfm?story=taxfree or http://www.turbotax.com/articles/RetirementPlansfortheSelf-employed.html for some background about what types of retirement plans for self-employed there are? Or did you mean IRA as in the Traditional or Roth outside of a business' retirement plan.

I did some research and I came across Vanguard and I would to have some opinion about.

I have a Roth IRA with Vanguard in a couple of their funds and I am quite happy there. Vanguard does have about 100 funds so there are quite a few choices to consider if you do invest there.

Regards,
JB

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Author: ResNullius Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43232 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 12:32 PM
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I'm a Vanguard person. When I retired, I rolled everything over into Vanguard, where I already had a taxable mutual fund account. They have been great. Low fees, good service, and good funds.

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Author: rkmacdonald Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43233 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 1:02 PM
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cmimis wrote:
I want to find out if vanguard group for retirement is the one of the best out there? My husband and I are self-employed and we are trying to open a IRA and we don't know where to start. I did some research and I came across Vanguard and I would to have some opinion about.

I have the majority of my IRA money at Vanguard and have been very happy with them. They have some of the lowest fees in the industry, and they have a good website. I check my balances and analyze my asset allocations regularly.

I also like the emphasis on index funds at Vanguard. John Bogle, founder of Vanguard, has written a very good book, 'Common Sense on Mutual Funds', which details that philosophy.

The portfolio manager at their website will also allow you to enter non-Vanguard investments, like individual stocks and bonds held with other brokerages, and even your house, if you want to keep track of your net worth. You can also download all your Vanguard mutual fund transactions into Intuit Quicken or Microsoft Money to keep track of things offline.

They also have an online brokerage attached to their mutual fund business, but their fees are pretty high, so I don't use them for that.

Their website is also very good for educating you and helping to determine which of their mutual funds are best for you. Then, if the online information is not enough, you can also pay them for their advice. Their fees are very reasonable, and the advisors are paid on salary, not commission, so they will not be biased towards specific funds or frequent trading. The mutual fund business does everything that it can to limit the amount of trading that takes place in funds, to keep costs as low as possible.

Another thing I like about Vanguard mutual funds is that you can elect to have regular withdrawals (or deposits) made from (to) one or more of your funds without any associated fees. For instance, you can elect to have a chosen amount deposited in your checking account each month. This gives you a regular "income", like the salary you used to get, which makes retirement living feel more secure and less complicated.

I think that other mutual fund companies provide similar features and services, but I like Vanguard, because they appear to have the overall lowest costs.

Russ

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43234 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 1:09 PM
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Vanguard is a good outfit -- their cost structure is lower, and all else being equal, lower costs obviously become higher returns. Just keep in mind that you'll encounter a lot of people who are fiercely loyal -- and almost cultish -- where Vanguard is concerned. No other investment entity I'm aware of -- okay, maybe Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway comes close -- generates as much die-hard loyalty and evangelism as Vanguard.

It's probably a good place to look, and there's a good chance you'll want to go with them -- but don't drink the Kool-Aid. They're not the only game in town.

#29


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Author: rkmacdonald Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43236 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 1:19 PM
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Just keep in mind that you'll encounter a lot of people who are fiercely loyal -- and almost cultish -- where Vanguard is concerned

True (and for good reason, I think)!! If you want to read comments from the Vanguard Diehards, go to http://www.diehards.org/

Russ

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Author: joelxwil Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43238 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 1:37 PM
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If you are just going to buy and hold a bunch of mutual funds, it might as well be Vanguard as anybody. That is, of course, a losing proposition in as much as you want to be out of the market when it is going down.

Any good investing program consists of two components: timing and selection.

There are a number of good market timing sites, such as TimingCube, or Marty Chernard's site. There is a bunch of free stuff on my site, but you have to have Fasttrack, or convert the code to run in Excel. None of this stuff is perfect, but it all beats buy and hold.

So far as selection is concerned, the easy thing to do is to buy things like QQQ, SPY, and IWM during the buy periods. You will trade 2-4 times per year. There are more complicated strategies for stock selection, whether you are a Value Investor, practice CANSLIM, technical analysis, or some combination.

Making money in the market is not terribly complicated, but it does require paying attention. The "set it and forget it" strategies do not do well, unless you are content to have a 47% drawdown in your account, and do not mind the fact that if you had bought VFINX 5 years ago you would still be down 10%. If you think that is doing well, then just buy VFINX.

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43239 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 1:41 PM
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>> If you are just going to buy and hold a bunch of mutual funds, it might as well be Vanguard as anybody. That is, of course, a losing proposition in as much as you want to be out of the market when it is going down.

Any good investing program consists of two components: timing and selection.
<<

You mean a good "speculating" program, yes?

"Buy and hold" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And as goals differ from person to person -- not all of us need to take the risks inherent in a 15% annual return (both in being long on stuff that is falling AND in NOT BEING IN AN UP MARKET because you followed a bad "sell" signal). B&H, or staying invested in general, doesn't necessarily mean buying SPY or VFINX and never doing anything else.

You can buy other stocks, ETFs or funds. You can allocate capital to various asset classes, and rely on rebalancing to let you buy more assets when they are depressed and sell high-flyers to finance it. There are a lot of ways that you can accomplish a market-level return with reduced market risk, and none of them require market timing.

#29


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Author: joelxwil Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43241 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 1:56 PM
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No, I do not mean speculation. Making an informed buy or sell decision is not speculation.

Rebalancing is a rather peculiar strategy. It means that you have some kind of asset allocation, and then you buy stuff that has gone down and sell stuff that has gone up. How you know that the stuff that has gone down will next go up is a question - in most rebalancing programs it seems to rely on faith. Not relying on faith is truly speculation.

The trend-following timing systems that most people use are self-correcting. All they do is to use technical analysis to determine if there is a trend, up or down, and then take a position until the trend reverses. The expectation - not always realized, of course - is that the trend will not reverse itself before you can take a profit. Most of the times, this works well, as you can see from TimingCube, or from other sites.

I don't know why a 15% annual return should be necessarily associated with risk. Losses in the market come primarily from 2 sources: failure to time correctly, and failure to select correctly. In other words, from trading incorrectly, which can include the failure to trade at all, or the decision to trade only at certain fixed times, such as quarterly or annual rebalancing. Trading should be event-driven, not calendar-driven.

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Author: SuaSponteMark Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43242 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 2:07 PM
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I have a standing offer for you.

I'll pay you $5 to take your broken record posts consisting of "market timing is good," "buy and hold is bad," and "the S&P is down over the last 5 years" and post them on the Yahoo boards instead of here. The other portion of the offer is if you repeat these mantras, you refund me the 5 bones and give me 5 of your own.

Mark

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Author: rkmacdonald Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43247 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 3:36 PM
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Any good investing program consists of two components: timing and selection.

Numerous reputable studies have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that technical timing strategies simply do not offer any advantage over the market over the long term, and they involve far more risk (volatility) than any retired person should ever take.

You will be far more successful in the long term with a properly diversified portfolio, and rebalancing every year or two.

Russ

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Author: cmimis Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43250 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 4:45 PM
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Thanks for your help.

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Author: cmimis Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43251 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 4:47 PM
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Thank you for taking the time to answer me.

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Author: cmimis Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43252 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 4:52 PM
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Thank you for your response.

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Author: cmimis Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43253 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 4:53 PM
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Thanks

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Author: IndecisiveFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43255 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 5:03 PM
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Making an informed buy or sell decision is not speculation.

What decision do you make make when you are clueless about the market direction as you have been in the past? In your timing system, do you hold or sell when you just don't know the market direction?

IF


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Author: rookieJoe Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43256 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/23/2004 10:13 PM
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Joel,

If you made comments such as the ones in this thread, in a discussion with an experienced investor who has a thorough understanding of the topic, then I would think you were just promoting your belief. Although it might not be a popular belief on this board, in that context you would deserve to be treated with respect, and have a civilized debate. And I would be interested in reading that thread.

But you don't seem to bring this up in discussions with those who are knowledgeable.

You repeatedly promote this philosophy to people who don't know where to start.

I don't know if you're trying to provoke an argument, or generate more hits to your site, or what....

But in my opinion, suggesting stuff like this to the OP of this thread is very irresponsible.

I've learned a lot in the last year - much of it from reading on this board. I am grateful that I didn't run across any of your posts when I was learning the basics.

-Joe

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Author: ResNullius Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43258 of 75383
Subject: Re: Retirement Date: 11/24/2004 11:23 AM
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Any good investing program consists of two components: timing and selection.

This is simply wrong. If there were any such thing as a market timing and selection program for beating the market, then you could buy it on any street corner and everyone would be billionaires. It's a sucker play put forward by con men, plain and simple.


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