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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 736572  
Subject: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/11/2012 11:39 PM
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Dems keep saying that Romney/Ryan is not offering enough details. If I recall, there were no specifics offered in 2008 by Obama. It was just HOPE and Change. Am I wrong here?

ALl the details I need are STOP GROWING THE FRAKING GOV"T AND THE ECONOMY WILL FIX ITSELF.

That is all.

decath
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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648400 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/12/2012 12:39 AM
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Dems keep saying that Romney/Ryan is not offering enough details.

That's what they said about military service, it was unimportant in 2000 before it was important in 2004.

JLC

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Author: NevadaGolfer Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648412 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/12/2012 3:58 AM
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Not only did Obama offer no specifics in 2008 but we had to pass bills to find out what was in them after the fact.

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Author: cal8 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648503 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/12/2012 5:39 PM
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Dems keep saying that Romney/Ryan is not offering enough details...
ALl the details I need are STOP GROWING THE FRAKING GOV"T AND THE ECONOMY WILL FIX ITSELF.


I disagree.
The reason that people are asking for specifics is that the numbers simply do not add up.
Romney plan is to:
1. Increase Defense spending to 4% of GDP (currently it is 3.2% and we still have a war going on.)
2. Across the board 20% tax cut
3. Eliminate the Estate tax
4. Eliminate the capital gains tax
5. Make up for these goodies by eliminating some unnamed deductions, growing the economy, and cutting waste.
6. Making 12 million new jobs.

The specifics people are asking for are what are the deductions and what do you consider waste. The reason this is asked is that you either ware going to blow the Obama deficits out of the water, you are going to be draconian in the cuts to services, or you are going to have to eliminate very popular deductions (and probably some combination of all 3).
I have no problem with eliminating the home interest deduction (I think it encourages people to overspend on housing), eliminating the Earned Income Tax Credit (It seems to mostly go to tax preparers), and eliminating the deduction on college tuitions (a tax break for the well-to-do and it encourages overspending on education); however, I think I am in the minority.

I would love for policies to create 12 million new jobs, but the plan for this is the magical belief that tax cuts in capital gains will spur growth. This makes no sense to me. There is no relationship between capital gains rate and economic growth (the correlation is 0.12). The current capital gains tax rate is 15%. If the capital gains rate moves to 35% are the Walton’s going to sell their stock and move the money to cash? Of course not. Investors might move to less risky assets, but they are not going to just pull the money from the economy.

Cutting waste is wonderful, but they will not touch current SS, Medicare, Medicaid, or interest on the debt and Romney wants to increase defense spending dramatically. Every other function of the government could be stopped and the budget does not balance, and that is without a tax cut.

The reason I want specifics from both parties is that I am a believer that there is a fiscal problem rapidly approaching. I hope that people from both sides will be able to talk honestly about spending priorities. If we decide we want good roads, we should have to pay for them. If we decide we want seniors to not eat cat food, we should agree to pay for it. If we want our children to have an education, we should pay for it. Civilized society costs money. To continuously underpay for the services we demand is ridiculous.

To tell the rubes that they can have tax cuts, increases in programs they like, and pay for it by finding waste and cutting out PBS is more than dishonest. To tell everyone that they are getting a tax cut and then skew it so that the majority of the cut goes to the wealthiest people is evil.
My biggest problem with the current crop of Republicans is not that they are proposing big spending cuts, it is that they are not proposing any real cuts. They attack the Dems for spending, but spend just as much. They fight tooth and nail for tax cuts for wealthy people, but these do not grow the economy. They compromise on tax cuts for the wealthy by allowing tax cuts for all.
We have gotten to the point where no party makes anyone eat spinach. The Dems say “we are having a dinner of waffles! And we will have some fresh spinach on the side.” The Repubs say, “No way, we need a dinner of chocolate with creamed spinach on the side.” They finally get together and compromise, “We will have a dinner of waffles and chocolate.”
I hate them both, I hate the guys that think they are looking out primarily for wealthy people like me more.

Charles

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648505 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/12/2012 5:49 PM
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cal8
The reason I want specifics from both parties is that I am a believer that there is a fiscal problem rapidly approaching. I hope that people from both sides will be able to talk honestly about spending priorities. If we decide we want good roads, we should have to pay for them. If we decide we want seniors to not eat cat food, we should agree to pay for it. If we want our children to have an education, we should pay for it. Civilized society costs money. To continuously underpay for the services we demand is ridiculous.



Nice post cal. I was being a little facetious.

As to the numbers not adding up, I agree. But what I do know is that Obama/Biden keeps adding, and adding and adding to our national debt. It's obscene.

decath

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648507 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/12/2012 5:55 PM
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The Dems are using the strategy of the Great Propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, who said: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

The Obama Administration keeps saying, for example, that unemploynent is declining, while failing to add that the labor participation rate is also declining, thereby skewing the unemployment rate.

There are other lies, of course, but the practical reality is that the Obama Administration is the perpetrator of the most and biggest lies the American public has ever confronted.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648510 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/12/2012 6:18 PM
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But what I do know is that Obama/Biden keeps adding, and adding and adding to our national debt. It's obscene.
---------------------------------------------------
No, they end the givaways to the rich, ending the Bush/Obama tax rates bringing in a whopping 100 billion a year (much less if they change it to only people making 1 million or above), which we can put toward the 1.1 trillion dollar debt to make it an even 1 trillion a year, then watch the economic growth.

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Author: cal8 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648558 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/12/2012 11:45 PM
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As to the numbers not adding up, I agree. But what I do know is that Obama/Biden keeps adding, and adding and adding to our national debt. It's obscene.

If you are really worried about the debt, you cannot vote for Romney. He will propose to cut taxes 20% across the board, the Dems will buckle and it will get passed. He will propose cutting the capital gains rate and the Dems will buckle and it will get passed. He will propose eliminating the estate tax, and the Dems will buckle. He will propose increasing the military and the Dems will buckle. He will propose eliminating the mortgage interest deduction and he will buckle and it will not get passed. He will propose cutting Medicaid and he will buckle.

The compromise will be to get every tax cut he has proposed and no spending cuts. The Republicans will not want to be seen at the party that made Grandma eat cat food so that the Walton heirs never have to pay taxes on their $2 billion in annual dividends. There will be demagoguery on the spending cuts, they will not happen. The compromise will be a deficit that makes Obama's look tame.

Charles

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648562 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/13/2012 12:38 AM
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cal8 wrote: If you are really worried about the debt, you cannot vote for Romney. He will propose to cut taxes 20% across the board, the Dems will buckle and it will get passed. [blah blah blah]

Do you really think that Mitt Romney, businessman par excellence, will devise a budget that exceeds the $1 TRILLION deficit that Obama has on record for four solid years?

Really? I mean, really?

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648572 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/13/2012 8:47 AM
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If you are really worried about the debt, you cannot vote for Romney. He will propose to cut taxes 20% across the board, the Dems will buckle and it will get passed. He will propose cutting the capital gains rate and the Dems will buckle and it will get passed. He will propose eliminating the estate tax, and the Dems will buckle. He will propose increasing the military and the Dems will buckle. He will propose eliminating the mortgage interest deduction and he will buckle and it will not get passed. He will propose cutting Medicaid and he will buckle.

The compromise will be to get every tax cut he has proposed and no spending cuts. The Republicans will not want to be seen at the party that made Grandma eat cat food so that the Walton heirs never have to pay taxes on their $2 billion in annual dividends. There will be demagoguery on the spending cuts, they will not happen. The compromise will be a deficit that makes Obama's look tame.

Charles


That's a worse case scenerio that you have just described. The big difference between Romney and Obama is that Romney actually cares about America and the economy. I really don't think Obama gives a hoot. TO radical leftists, it's in their interests for America to fail so that they can use it as an excuse to push bigger gov't on us and thus, more socialism.

Romney is a businessman and a patriot. I don't agree with everything he does. I don't think a 20% tax cut will ever be passed unless the Reps get a filibuster proof senate. I don't see it happening. So to get all huffy about that is a waste of energy.

We do need more reforms of the tax code, we need Obamacare to be eliminated and we need, at the very least, to have the current tax structure made permanent. We also need to take a hard look at Ryan's SS and Medicare proposals because doing nothing is irresponsible and pushing the problem forward to the next 5-10 years. I'm 50 and will probably get screwed just as bad as anyone since I've been paying 7.65% for almost 30 years now. I paid 15.3% for 5 years when I did self-employment consulting. But I'm willing to sacrifice and do the right thing.

Dems don't ever want to sacrifice. They want it all. They want people making more than them to pay for their irresponsible entitlements and their big gov't programs.

decath

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648576 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/13/2012 9:17 AM
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If you are really worried about the debt, you cannot vote for Romney. He will propose to cut taxes 20% across the board, the Dems will buckle and it will get passed. He will propose cutting the capital gains rate and the Dems will buckle and it will get passed. He will propose eliminating the estate tax, and the Dems will buckle. He will propose increasing the military and the Dems will buckle. He will propose eliminating the mortgage interest deduction and he will buckle and it will not get passed. He will propose cutting Medicaid and he will buckle.

The compromise will be to get every tax cut he has proposed and no spending cuts. The Republicans will not want to be seen at the party that made Grandma eat cat food so that the Walton heirs never have to pay taxes on their $2 billion in annual dividends. There will be demagoguery on the spending cuts, they will not happen. The compromise will be a deficit that makes Obama's look tame.

Charles
_______________________

Charles

Even in the worst case scenario you outline. IT is far better than what you will get under Obama.
Obama will cut the military and expand social spending on a 1 and 1/2 basis making our fiscal and social problems both worse.
Obama will make fake spending cuts by having Medicare pay 50% of actual costs to care providers to pass a budget and then when care is stopped take 1 of 2 possible paths out -- nationalize care due to a crisis or blow out budget
Obama's military cuts will lead to adventurous behaviour by America's enemies leading to a need to spend far more later after the next disaster
Obama will not cut cap gains tax, and the economy will not expand
Obama will NOT look at all the money oversees, and figure out that it will best serve the country as investment as opposed to staying off shore because it is 'revenue' to take from the undeserving and ....

BTW it is the most absurd argument imaginable that there are no cuts that will not lead to grandma eating cat food.

That does not even begin to touch on Obama's fealty to unions that is a genuine problem/
That does not start to address that Obama will never fix the education system, and if you pay any attention at all, will see that he is actually looking to expand public education into the college level!!!! How else can you propose what he had? THis is where he wants to go

There is hope with a Romeny administration, there is still a lot of Tea Party folks around to vote on moving things in the right direction. If Obama is trounced -- how much fealty to Obama's ideas will there be?

This is a real opportunity to have a meaningful election.

Will it be one? I do not know, But anyone believing that politics is the same in all situation is being silly IMO.

There is a very different landscape now then there was a few years ago, and there is a lot of people willing to see a different track taken

Folks want to dismiss the real possibility that if politicians actually do some of the easy stuff that the hard stuff becomes easier.

Politics is not a speed boat, that is why Ron Paul is and will remain a terrible choice, even if he is right. Small changes building momentum is the only way to move the country. Like it or not, that is truth not some fantasy

Cut NPR -- it does not solve anything but it is easy and obvious -- does anyone believe that if we do not do the easy and obvious that people will believe that we have made an honest change? Get rid of cowboy poetry, tax upper end Social Security and Medicare, stop appointing this board and that board and just do things

WIll this happen? Maybe, but it will change slowly not rapidly

And frankly there is simply ZERO none nada issue where Obama is the right person on any issue.

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Author: cal8 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648880 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/15/2012 8:28 AM
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That's a worse case scenerio that you have just described. The big difference between Romney and Obama is that Romney actually cares about America and the economy.

I disagree on both points. I think, if Romney wins, it is the most likely scenerio; he will try to keep all of his promises, the ones that are popular will get passed, the ones that are unpopular will not (my general premise is that all active politician lack a backbone.) I also think that both Obama and Romney care about America, they just disagree about what would improve the country. (I think this attitude is seen on both sides and is wrong. Someone can think tax rates on high income people should be higher or lower without hating America.)

Charles

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648883 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/15/2012 8:41 AM
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I disagree on both points. I think, if Romney wins, it is the most likely scenerio; he will try to keep all of his promises, the ones that are popular will get passed, the ones that are unpopular will not (my general premise is that all active politician lack a backbone.) I also think that both Obama and Romney care about America, they just disagree about what would improve the country. (I think this attitude is seen on both sides and is wrong. Someone can think tax rates on high income people should be higher or lower without hating America.)

Charles
_________________________

WHile I agree, that Obama wants what is best for the country as does Romney. I do believe the Obama does not like what America is or was.

So, it IMO is kind of like saying you like the apple orchard over there. Because you want to bulldoze it and replace it with a condo. You love the property and think you can improve it, if you trash it and start over. You did not destroy the orchard! You just built condos which improved it dramatically, unless you kind of wanted apples of course.

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 648900 of 736572
Subject: Re: Romney/Ryan Specifics Date: 10/15/2012 10:49 AM
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low
WHile I agree, that Obama wants what is best for the country as does Romney. I do believe the Obama does not like what America is or was.

So, it IMO is kind of like saying you like the apple orchard over there. Because you want to bulldoze it and replace it with a condo. You love the property and think you can improve it, if you trash it and start over. You did not destroy the orchard! You just built condos which improved it dramatically, unless you kind of wanted apples of course.


You said it much better than I did.

Obama and apparantly a large number of dems as well, have this vision of America where the gov't fixes most of our problems. Gov't has a place, but it's overreaching and overbearing at present. Dems want this society where people are not allowed to fail. Picking yourself up after you fail is what makes you grow. Sure, some poeple could use a helping hand. But they want to extend that helping had to the 50%, 75% or the 99% depending how liberal you are.

It's mistifying to me how each passing election, dems want more and more gov't intrusion into our lives. I don't think they will ever be satisfied. Meddling with other people's business is a toxic habit. You never get enough.

That is what Obama cares about and it is NOT the America our founding father's envisioned, nor is it anywhere close to what makes this country great.

decath

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