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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 196046  
Subject: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 12:25 PM
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Will Florida Execute a Psychotic Man Who Thinks He Is the "Prince of God?"
Rania Khalek, Truthout: Republican Gov. Rick Scott and Florida courts are pushing to execute an elderly prisoner despite multiple diagnoses by state-appointed psychiatrists stating that he is incompetent.
Read the Article

---------


How do they know he is not the Prince of God?
I contend - strongly - that if Jesus were to come back today he would be declared insane and popped into a mental hospital.

Christians want an invisible "God" - not a flesh and blood one.
And even though they talk about Jesus being a man - I don't think they cared much for that aspect of him. If he even existed. And there is doubt about even that. Still....

This guy may be executed.
My question is: How do you know he is not the "Prince of God?"

AM
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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183371 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 12:26 PM
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I guess it would help to have the link:

http://truth-out.org/news/item/12011-will-florida-execute-a-...

Sorry about that. Duh. :)

AM

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183372 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 12:38 PM
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We have an intermediary between us and the Father, the man Jesus Christ. This is very important to me.

Prince of God is a meaningless term to me, what did the man do that he was sentenced to death?

Depending on what he did, I could care less if he is insane or competent.
Insane or sane seem to be best used by expensive lawyers, i am more concerned about guilt or innocence.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183375 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 1:10 PM
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We have an intermediary between us and the Father, the man Jesus Christ. This is very important to me.

Prince of God is a meaningless term to me, what did the man do that he was sentenced to death?



If you had read the article (which is very short) you would know.



Depending on what he did, I could care less if he is insane or competent.
Insane or sane seem to be best used by expensive lawyers, i am more concerned about guilt or innocence.



Yet you don't bat an eyelash when you read of God destroying entire cities including the women and children and animals. Nor when you read that God will visit punishment upon generations of children for the parent's bad deeds.

And you wonder why people don't find Christianity palatable.

AM

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183376 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 1:14 PM
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I contend - strongly - that if Jesus were to come back today he would be declared insane and popped into a mental hospital.

I suspect Christians would expect Jesus to be as described in the scriptures. From the article:

Posing as a power company repairman, Ferguson entered a home where he and two others shot to death six people in an execution style line up. Back then, the Miami Herald called it "the worst mass murder in Dade history." Ferguson was also convicted of the 1978 murder of two teens from nearby Hialeah.

I think that kinda shows he ain't the Christ.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183377 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 1:21 PM
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<<
Yet you don't bat an eyelash when you read of God destroying entire cities including the women and children and animals. Nor when you read that God will visit punishment upon generations of children for the parent's bad deeds.
>>
How would you know when I bat an eyelash or shed a tear.

Some reasons psychologists and the public in general as proof of insanity are excellent reasons for putting the person to death.

<<
And you wonder why people don't find Christianity palatable.

AM
>>

I know many of the reasons why people do not find Christianity palatable, and i share some of them. I do not know that I have wondered about the others. I may have at some point but cannot remember it at the moment.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183378 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 1:21 PM
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Posing as a power company repairman, Ferguson entered a home where he and two others shot to death six people in an execution style line up. Back then, the Miami Herald called it "the worst mass murder in Dade history." Ferguson was also convicted of the 1978 murder of two teens from nearby Hialeah.

I think that kinda shows he ain't the Christ.

--------------


I don't see how you can make any conclusions from that.
As I said before, God (and Jesus is, supposedly, also God) didn't have any trouble at all killing hundreds of innocent women and children or visiting punishment upon innocent children just because of the bad deeds of the parents. How is that any different?

Of course, *I* don't believe he is the "Prince of God" or Prince of anything else, for that matter. But I don't believe in beings whose existence cannot be proven.

I'm thinking it would take as much to convince Christians that the "real" Jesus was here and walking around as it would to convince me. Maybe more - because I don't think they actually want that to be the case.

Anyway, it's interesting that everyone who claims God told them to do something that is considered bad or claims to be God - in some form or other - is declared nuts, even though there is ample documentation in the Bible of God doing very bad things.

But if someone claims God told them to do something considered good by this society, everyone believes they actually hear God talking to them.

God says bad: Person nutz.
God says good: Person hailed.

Forgive me for being just a little puzzled by such convoluted nonsense.

AM

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183379 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 1:24 PM
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<<
Forgive me for being just a little puzzled by such convoluted nonsense.
>>

Me too, i am also puzzled why you are propagating such convoluted nonsense. It is not like anyone else on this board is propagating such convoluted nonsense! Just you!

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183381 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 2:11 PM
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<<
Forgive me for being just a little puzzled by such convoluted nonsense.
>>

Me too, i am also puzzled why you are propagating such convoluted nonsense. It is not like anyone else on this board is propagating such convoluted nonsense! Just you!

----------


Now that is very unfair of you.
I didn't make any of this stuff up.
All I did was refer to it.
Yet somehow I'm the bad guy here.
I'm sorry if mentioning things that happened as described by the Bible are upsetting to you and shouldn't be mentioned.
Can you not see how I could be puzzled by your attitude?
You are proving my point with every post.
But I didn't post to start an argument.
I posted to make you THINK.
I posted to see WHAT you think about the things I posted.
Apparently, that is not allowed.
So far I've gotten not a single coherent answer.

AM

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183384 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 2:33 PM
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<<
Now that is very unfair of you.
I didn't make any of this stuff up.
>>

Did someone else on this board especially a christian post it? Did they claim it was true?

I only bring up the cra& FMNH posts when I replying to him/her. I do not post it to have you or the other atheists posting here explain it.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183391 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 3:19 PM
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Did someone else on this board especially a christian post it? Did they claim it was true?

I only bring up the cra& FMNH posts when I replying to him/her. I do not post it to have you or the other atheists posting here explain it.

-------------------


So....are you saying that no one should post anything here that is puzzling or difficult to answer? Or just stuff that is uncomfortable to answer? Seriously, I'd like to know.

How would you go about proving that someone who says he is Jesus (or, in this case, the "Prince" of God) is not actually who he says he is?

And even though this particular nut case (my determination) killed a bunch of innocent people, how is that different from God killing a bunch of innocent people?

What would convince you that someone who said he was Jesus actually was Jesus?

Are these the questions that we are not supposed to ask here?
What, exactly, is your problem with these questions?

I didn't make them up to insult you?
I asked them based on an article I read - and based on my feeling that even if Jesus did come back, you wouldn't acknowledge him. My feeling might be wrong. But if it's wrong, it would nice to know what it would take for you to believe someone who said he was Jesus instead of having him committed.

But, of course, if these questions are not to be asked, then... OK.


AM

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183402 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 4:50 PM
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<<

How would you go about proving that someone who says he is Jesus (or, in this case, the "Prince" of God) is not actually who he says he is?

And even though this particular nut case (my determination) killed a bunch of innocent people, how is that different from God killing a bunch of innocent people?
>>

See now you are addressing my point.... YOU ARE NUTS for giving a murderer a get out of the hangman's noose excuse... I see no reason to think the quy is nuts but even if he is and committed the crimes you mention he should die, their is no need to warehouse the body till he dies of natural causes.
Put the guy down just like you would a rabid dog in your neighborhood! If he is guilty of course.
There should be no not guilty by reason of insanity, there should be guilty by reason of insanity. Let them plead guilty but insane if they choose.

I have not met the guy, but Jesus told me that those who are his will know his voice... I believe what he told me, and I listen for it, I have heard it from the pulpit, from a homeless man on the street, and from somewhere deep within myself. I do not need to prove anyone is Jesus nor if they are not, HE told us that we would know, and I believe Him.
If the man is question is the 'Prince of god' or Jesus Christ and he murdered 5 people then put him to death, why should I care. who cares if it is true? You seem to, but really do not, I do not care who the man is or his name real nor imagined.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183404 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 4:57 PM
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<<
I asked them based on an article I read - and based on my feeling that even if Jesus did come back, you wouldn't acknowledge him. My feeling might be wrong. But if it's wrong, it would nice to know what it would take for you to believe someone who said he was Jesus instead of having him committed.
>>

If Jesus came back the religious would like want him crucified again... he would not be allowed to preach in most churches because he is not going to tell them what their itching ears want to hear. He would be in prison and they would not visit, sick and they would not care for him, he would be hungry and they would not feed him, but when the final Trump will sound they will expect to go meet Him in the air with those who are ready for His return.

I have had people tell me they were Jesus, I have never wanted any of them committed. Neither did I think they were Jesus. I hav sen a few of them physically removed from the churches they were end, and threatened with arrest if they returned. I wept.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183406 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 6:10 PM
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See now you are addressing my point.... YOU ARE NUTS for giving a murderer a get out of the hangman's noose excuse... I see no reason to think the quy is nuts but even if he is and committed the crimes you mention he should die, their is no need to warehouse the body till he dies of natural causes.
Put the guy down just like you would a rabid dog in your neighborhood! If he is guilty of course.
There should be no not guilty by reason of insanity, there should be guilty by reason of insanity. Let them plead guilty but insane if they choose.

I have not met the guy, but Jesus told me that those who are his will know his voice... I believe what he told me, and I listen for it, I have heard it from the pulpit, from a homeless man on the street, and from somewhere deep within myself. I do not need to prove anyone is Jesus nor if they are not, HE told us that we would know, and I believe Him.
If the man is question is the 'Prince of god' or Jesus Christ and he murdered 5 people then put him to death, why should I care. who cares if it is true? You seem to, but really do not, I do not care who the man is or his name real nor imagined.




No.... I'm not nuts. But I don't really think in terms of putting people down like they were rabid dogs. That just, somehow to me, doesn't sound like anything a Christian would ever say.

Why should you care? Because he's a human being. Maybe a not very nice one. Maybe a very sick one. But still human. A little compassion wouldn't cost you very much and just might go a long way toward making you a happier person yourself.

As it is, you sound very angry - and very unhappy.

AM

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183407 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/10/2012 6:12 PM
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I have had people tell me they were Jesus, I have never wanted any of them committed. Neither did I think they were Jesus. I hav sen a few of them physically removed from the churches they were end, and threatened with arrest if they returned. I wept.



Then you are one in a billion. I've heard of people claiming to be Jesus, but I've never had anyone actually tell me that they were. From your story here, it doesn't sound like the churches were very loving places. Threatened with arrest? Can only shake my head in wonder.

AM

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183414 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 10:24 AM
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I don't see how you can make any conclusions from that.
As I said before, God (and Jesus is, supposedly, also God) didn't have any trouble at all killing hundreds of innocent women and children or visiting punishment upon innocent children just because of the bad deeds of the parents. How is that any different?


Christians will expect Christ to return the way he said he would.

With power, the power of God.

It would not be as a two-bit criminal posing as a repair man and shooting eight people.

It would be unmistakable.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183420 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 10:57 AM
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Christians will expect Christ to return the way he said he would.

With power, the power of God.

It would not be as a two-bit criminal posing as a repair man and shooting eight people.

It would be unmistakable.

---------------


While I agree with you that it wouldn't be as a two-bit criminal, I still wonder how you would know. I mean "power" means a lot of things. Especially for one who is supposedly all-powerful. What if he decided to come back with a gentle whisper instead of a bang? An all-powerful being COULD come here in the guise of the most lowly among us - just to see what the so-called followers would do and how they would treat him. You have to admit that if you do believe he is all-powerful then that IS possible.

I keep hearing that you (the Christian you) will know. But no one tells me exactly how you will know. Will it be voices in your head? Will you know by some kind of mental telepathy?

What would you consider "unmistakable."
Will flames shoot out from his head? (A rather extreme example, but it would certainly get attention being so out of the ordinary.)

I just don't see how you can "know" something without some kind of demonstrable substance to that "knowledge."

Mostly, the answers I've received here (scarce, at best) have been more akin to some kind of magic that will "happen" rather than something I could consider reasonably believable.

Maybe my friend was right when he told me that I and Christians are speaking a whole different language and, thus, we simply cannot communicate any better than if I were speaking English to someone who only understands a remote Indian dialect.

I do understand emotion, however, and I've sensed a lot of anger here. And unhappiness. I'm sorry for that.

AM

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183426 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 11:14 AM
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I keep hearing that you (the Christian you) will know.

I'm agnostic.

Mostly, the answers I've received here (scarce, at best) have been more akin to some kind of magic that will "happen" rather than something I could consider reasonably believable.

I told you already. Christians will expect Christ to return the way he said he would.

He said, in the Gospels and Revelation, how he would come back. Christians believe these texts to be true, so they will expect him to come back the way he said.

Do you want to do an exigesis of the text?

I do understand emotion, however, and I've sensed a lot of anger here. And unhappiness. I'm sorry for that.

I sense that too.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183430 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 11:29 AM
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I keep hearing that you (the Christian you) will know.

I'm agnostic.



When I said "the Christian you" it was like saying, in any other group of people, "the generic you" - meaning no one person in particular. So I wasn't speaking of you directly.

And you are not agnostic. If you don't know whether or not you believe in God, then you don't. That makes you an Atheist. It's ok to say the word "Atheist." It won't gag you nor make you turn purple. It's just a descriptive word. It isn't even loaded. It just is. Whoever dreamed up the word "agnostic" must believe a person can be "just a little bit pregnant" - but they can't. They are either pregnant or they are not. You either believe in God or you don't.

Having said that, I have to add that almost all Atheists are "agnostic" in that, if evidence/proof of God should ever come before them, they are completely ready to receive it, and evaluate it, and to finally believe in such a God.

I told you already. Christians will expect Christ to return the way he said he would.


And exactly how is that? Since I don't know, maybe you could tell me.
Reading Revelation is like poking into an insane person's mind. I really don't want to go there again.

AM

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183435 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 12:16 PM
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I have had people tell me they were Jesus, I have never wanted any of them committed. Neither did I think they were Jesus. I hav sen a few of them physically removed from the churches they were end, and threatened with arrest if they returned. I wept.

I think that you equate having someone committed with a terrible occurrence. It doesn't have to be. Whatever steps can be taken to give them the help they need to live a full and healthy life.

I would weep, too, because they were not being given compassion and were being punished rather than being offered the help they truly needed.

The form of someone's delusions are only important when they present a danger to them or those around them. They are simply victims of a mental illness.

By the way, this is the same treatment I advocate for someone who believes they are Jesus, Scooby Doo, or a ham sandwich.

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183436 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 12:18 PM
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Then you are one in a billion. I've heard of people claiming to be Jesus, but I've never had anyone actually tell me that they were.

To be fair, AM, you don't usually hang out in places where people of strong religious conviction congregate to discuss their beliefs in person.

GSF

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183439 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 12:55 PM
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To be fair, AM, you don't usually hang out in places where people of strong religious conviction congregate to discuss their beliefs in person.

GSF

---------


That's true, but I've passed a fair number of nuts walking the streets muttering to themselves. So who knows? I may have passed a wannabe Jesus and not known it. :)

AM

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183452 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 3:08 PM
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And you are not agnostic.

I'm happy with that label right now, but I understand what you are saying.

By the way, I am in good company:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_agnostics

And in context, I am agnostic about the Christian faith, which is what we are discussing here.

They are either pregnant or they are not. You either believe in God or you don't.

But then there's this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probabilit...

I flip flop between a 3 and a 5. I expect you are a 6.9

<<Christians will expect Christ to return the way he said he would.>>

And exactly how is that? Since I don't know, maybe you could tell me.


For example:

Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d]

Stuff like that. The point is the text makes it very clear that there will be no mistaking the return.

Reading on, he also says:

34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Seems like "this generation" did pass away, but I leave that for others to explain... (and 1948 + 40 is no longer a valid explaination!).

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183456 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 4:25 PM
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<<
Reading Revelation is like poking into an insane person's mind.
>>


Daniel has similarities in that regard....

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Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 4:29 PM
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<<
I think that you equate having someone committed with a terrible occurrence. It doesn't have to be. Whatever steps can be taken to give them the help they need to live a full and healthy life.
>>

I think imprisoning someone for reprogramming that thinks they are Jesus is no different that imprisoning someone who thinks they are a homosexual for reprogramming.

Helping someone is a good thing, imprisoning them and calling it therapy does not seem good to me. Unless you can prove they are a danger to others.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183459 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 4:44 PM
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the stars will fall from the sky,


If that happens, none of us will be alive to witness any second coming.
Scientifically, that is just not going to happen.


34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Seems like "this generation" did pass away, but I leave that for others to explain... (and 1948 + 40 is no longer a valid explaination!).



Ha. That generation and thousands upon thousands more of them.

Thanks for the answer, though.
I appreciate it.

AM

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183464 of 196046
Subject: Re: See? Told Ja Date: 10/11/2012 5:24 PM
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If that happens, none of us will be alive to witness any second coming.
Scientifically, that is just not going to happen.


'course not. Just quoting the text...

34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Ha. That generation and thousands upon thousands more of them.


I've not seen a good answer to this one. Some theologians say it already happened. Falling stars and stuff is poetry or hyperbole.

Thanks for the answer, though.
I appreciate it.


You are most welcome. Interesting discussion.

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