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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1976935  
Subject: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 12:40 PM
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Union jobs, on average, pay about $10,000 more a year than non-union jobs.

Union dues and fees average about $400 per year.


So if you're a worker in favor of "right-to-work" laws because they save you $400 a year in fees, you're also an idiot.
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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844330 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 12:58 PM
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Is that across the Country or in the same region for the same job?

Is that a Union study?

Auto-workers in a non-Union plant in Kentucky vs workers in Detroit have a different cost of living so if they are making less it would make sense.

Besides who cares if it's shortsighted? It's their choice. Like anyone who pays income taxes voting for Obama. No rational reason, but it's their choice.

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844335 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 1:15 PM
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Auto-workers in a non-Union plant in Kentucky vs workers in Detroit have a different cost of living so if they are making less it would make sense.

Bull..

Show me the numbers.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844336 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 1:15 PM
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So if you're a worker in favor of "right-to-work" laws because they save you $400 a year in fees, you're also an idiot.
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Hmmmmm. So it's idiotic to not join the union? Why are you worried about a law that makes membership optional then? If it's that good of a deal you would not have to force people to join would you.

Mark

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844341 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 1:28 PM
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Hmmmmm. So it's idiotic to not join the union? Why are you worried about a law that makes membership optional then? If it's that good of a deal you would not have to force people to join would you.

Mark
__________________

Mark, for a seemingly smart fella, you seem to miss a lot. Liberalism and unionism is a manifestation of that TODAY, is all about forcing people to do what is good for them.

That is how liberals know they are good people. Since what they want is all what is best for everyone, how can forcing them not be good? Once you accept you are pure goodness, well you do not have to start questioning yourself.

since people do not agree with liberals, and liberals are pure goodness, well then anything else is evil --- including the ignorance of the poor schlubs acting against what is obviously pure goodness, how can forcing them not be a good things.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844346 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 1:35 PM
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Mark, for a seemingly smart fella, you seem to miss a lot. Liberalism and unionism is a manifestation of that TODAY, is all about forcing people to do what is good for them.
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No, I get that. I just love hearing them come up with answers to defend the obvious logical holes in their ideas and arguments. Occassionally, especially with JerryAB my favorite, you get an honest answer along the lines of: "Look, we just can't trust people with freedom."

Mark

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844350 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 1:41 PM
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No, I get that. I just love hearing them come up with answers to defend the obvious logical holes in their ideas and arguments. Occassionally, especially with JerryAB my favorite, you get an honest answer along the lines of: "Look, we just can't trust people with freedom."
_________________________

Just for the record, I do recognize you get it, one of my purposes out here is to get my sarcasm out of my system before my wife gets home, and I get myself in real trouble<grin>, one of the reasons I occassionally chide Dope as well

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Author: StockGoddess Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844374 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 2:16 PM
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I decided to get my mom's view on this since she has always lived in Michigan.

"Suppose there are two auto workers in a factory. One opts into the union, the other says "I'm taking my $400 and going home with it". Both are making $25 an hour that the union fought for. Is it fair the one has to pay the union dues to get the benefits, and the other gets the same benefits for free?

So after a bit, while things are good, more and more folks opt out of the union, taking their $400 home, until it's weakened enough that a threat of strike no longer holds any weight, and the union itself becomes obsolete at that point.

GM workers who start today do NOT get the benefits, pension, or salary of workers who started 10 years ago. Their starting pay has dropped significantly. At $17 an hour and heading south. So, soon a factory wage won't be a living wage and everyone will need two jobs just to get by.

But the CEO and the guys at the top? Their wages have gone nowhere but up, recession or not.

So the poor get poorer, the rich get richer, the middle class gets gone. To me, it's a bad thing."

-=-=-

Good, bad - you decide. This is how a 80 year old lifetime resident of Michigan sees the current situation. Thanks, Mom!

SG

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844382 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 2:27 PM
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Out of touch Liberals love lecturing "workers" on why they are idiots.

Listen up "workers", you idiots should only vote on money. Felix says so. it has nothing to do with your principles, your comfort levels, your beliefs, your preferences. YOu "workers" are idiots.

And then you "idiot workers", we'll tell your kids what to eat for lunch too.

Sheesh.

Please Caliphornia, lay off some more cops and teachers. It's fun to see these yuppies get it.

Obama 2012...get em Mr President.

JediG

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844384 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 2:31 PM
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stockg:"I decided to get my mom's view on this since she has always lived in Michigan."

And why would that count for anything? But I suppose she likes poor state services at high prices......so you asked her?

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stockG-mom" "Suppose there are two auto workers in a factory. One opts into the union, the other says "I'm taking my $400 and going home with it". Both are making $25 an hour that the union fought for. Is it fair the one has to pay the union dues to get the benefits, and the other gets the same benefits for free?"

Well,let's see...most of that union money goes to buy votes for the democratic party. That means that taxpayers have to fund gold and platinum level benefits for all the public sector workers, which require high state income taxes and high property taxes all over the state, in every location. It means inefficiency with union 'work rules' that don't allow modernization. It means strikes shutting down whole industries to demonstrate 'union power' to compel companies and cities and states to cave in to unaffordable contracts.

Is that what you meant?

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StockG-mom:"So after a bit, while things are good, more and more folks opt out of the union, taking their $400 home, until it's weakened enough that a threat of strike no longer holds any weight, and the union itself becomes obsolete at that point."

It's probably obsolete now,other than featherbedding jobs, requiring thousands of man hours of extra lawyer time, 'saving jobs' of drunk and stoned auto workers that no one else wants to work with......

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stGmom" So, soon a factory wage won't be a living wage and everyone will need two jobs just to get by."

That's globalization at work for you, plus automation. The higher the wages, the more companies are forced to go to automation.

If you can't add 'value' to the process, you aren't going to get high wages. Now you better understand robotics, automation system,s computer controlled machinery, etc. A 9nth grade education won't hack it.

-------



stg-mom: "But the CEO and the guys at the top? Their wages have gone nowhere but up, recession or not."

Yes, likely that is true.....but they work their butts off increasing the value of the company or they, too are 'gone'. Quickly these days.

----------


stg-mom:"So the poor get poorer, the rich get richer, the middle class gets gone. To me, it's a bad thing."

The auto industry has changed. Cars are competitive and foreign makers with US auto factories can produce cars with minimal labor and minimal legacy costs.

Almost no company today provides a pension to new employees. That should be true of all public sector workers too...including teachers..they should all have matches to 401K type plans.. Nothing else.


Unions have bled whole states, communities, counties....dry.....

It's now time for reality. We can't afford extortion from the public sector unions and most company unions are a big part of the problem and no part of the solution.


t.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844385 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 2:32 PM
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Hmmmmm.So it's idiotic to not join the union?

Generally, yes.

Why are you worried about a law that makes membership optional then?

Because there are always enough idiots and free-riders to screw it up for everyone else.

If it's that good of a deal you would not have to force people to join would you.

Straw man. No one is calling for people to be forced to join unions.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844393 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 2:51 PM
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What your mom and all the board MBAs have done is forgotten something: if wages drop that far that fast, the union will see a massive increase in membership and power again, and will then be able to renegotiate from a position of strength.

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844401 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 3:08 PM
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Dope1, you are trying to explain chess to a bunch that can barely play checkers.

JediG

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844403 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 3:10 PM
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"Suppose there are two auto workers in a factory. One opts into the union, the other says "I'm taking my $400 and going home with it". Both are making $25 an hour that the union fought for. Is it fair the one has to pay the union dues to get the benefits, and the other gets the same benefits for free?

_______________

Question on that. Isn't one of the benefits of a Union an advocate service so you aren't fired summarily? Don't Unions work as your advocate if the company tries to screw you? The non-union worker would have to hire an attorney.

There are perks to being an Union member besides the direct cash value.

Also when you state that both are getting $25 an hour, could the non-Union worker maybe have gotten $27 because they are a superior worker if not for the Union's deal?

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844405 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 3:14 PM
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tele: .most of that union money goes to buy votes for the democratic party.

Tele's credibility takes another swan dive.....

Got data?

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844406 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 3:16 PM
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But the CEO and the guys at the top? Their wages have gone nowhere but up, recession or not.

___________

Why is that? Because they were able to convince someone(s) that they were worth it. They didn't get there via social promotion or joining a Union to be a worker drone. Get a skill set that is rare.

Moral of that story...study hard and excel at school. Go to college, study hard and be successful. Don't settle for a job among the masses. Make yourself more desireable than the competition for your next job.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844411 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 3:31 PM
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Moral of that story...study hard and excel at school. Go to college, study hard and be successful. Don't settle for a job among the masses. Make yourself more desireable than the competition for your next job.

And if you don't, then grovel at the feet of the wealthy like the dog you are and die at the curb without healthcare when you get old. Living is for the rich and powerful, not working class scum.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844418 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 3:46 PM
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So if you're a worker in favor of "right-to-work" laws because they save you $400 a year in fees, you're also an idiot.

Those are the same people who believe that tax cuts for the wealthy help the working class.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844430 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 4:03 PM
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And if you don't, then grovel at the feet of the wealthy like the dog you are and die at the curb without healthcare when you get old. Living is for the rich and powerful, not working class scum.

____________________

I never met a hard working individual who wasn't sucessful. You might not become Bill Gates, but you can easily qualify for what Obama calls a "Millionaire", the rest of us call it middle class.

If you work hard you'll be fine, especially if you decide not to be dependent on others. You shouldn't expect to be given anything from someone else who earned it.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844432 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 4:05 PM
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Union jobs, on average, pay about $10,000 more a year than non-union jobs.

Union dues and fees average about $400 per year.


So if you're a worker in favor of "right-to-work" laws because they save you $400 a year in fees, you're also an idiot.


And if you lost your union job because your plant closed and moved to South Carolina where wages are lower, you should wrap yourself in the warmth of the fact that your union membership only cost you $400 year.

And in related news:

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/5da6bf32a27646d294292d...

INDIANAPOLIS — Nine companies announced plans Tuesday to create up to 2,550 jobs in Indiana over the next six years, and Gov. Mitch Daniels promised more announcements in the weeks before he leaves office as he looks to end his eight years in the Statehouse on a high note.

Tuesday's announcement came as Michigan lawmakers put their state on course to approve right-to-work legislation barring unions from collecting mandatory fees from workers. Michigan Republicans, including Gov. Rick Snyder, have used Indiana as a reason to pass the law, claiming Indiana is swiping jobs because of its right-to-work law.

--------

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844436 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 4:09 PM
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GM workers who start today do NOT get the benefits, pension, or salary of workers who started 10 years ago. Their starting pay has dropped significantly. At $17 an hour and heading south. So, soon a factory wage won't be a living wage and everyone will need two jobs just to get by.

They don't get that as part of the UNION contract. The largest and most powerful auto union in America agreed to that deal to protect CURRENT workers over future workers.

Quite short-sighted of the union if you ask me. Now new workers have even less of a reason to join since they got screwed in the previous contract.

Those new workers have no one to thank but their peers (and the union) for this fact.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844441 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 4:12 PM
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Dope1, you are trying to explain chess to a bunch that can barely play checkers.

Exactly. I've net met a more spoiled bunch of entitled children than PA leftists. The world owes them everything 'cause they vote democrat. Or something. It's also mind-blowing how so many of them claim all this education and yet evidently fell asleep in every class they took.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844458 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 4:34 PM
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I never met a hard working individual who wasn't sucessful....If you work hard you'll be fine, especially if you decide not to be dependent on others.

Picked a lot of strawberries, have ya?

You have no idea how many people struggle from check to check, working multiple jobs, and will never attain middle class stats.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844463 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 4:45 PM
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Picked a lot of strawberries, have ya?

You have no idea how many people struggle from check to check, working multiple jobs, and will never attain middle class stats.
___________

Well I picked cherries and have union employees who I pay more than the union says I have to. (That's so their thugs who don't card check their own jobs steal them), but they would card check mine. Should they get a piece of the "extra"?

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844490 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 6:13 PM
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I never met a hard working individual who wasn't sucessful. . .

If you work hard you'll be fine . . .


You've led a sheltered life.

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Author: Wessex99 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844514 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 7:50 PM
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Apparently, it has a very limited universe of experience.

Wessex

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844537 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 9:20 PM
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Out of touch Liberals love lecturing "workers" on why they are idiots.

You didn't understand my post. I didn't say workers are idiots. I said workers who like "right to work" laws because it "saves" them $400 or whatever are idiots. Big difference.

And then you "idiot workers", we'll tell your kids what to eat for lunch too.

I don't care what your kids eat for lunch, Jedi. Really.

Please Caliphornia...

What is it with you and California?

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844538 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 9:28 PM
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Your judgementalism on workers is well, Liberal.

They aren't idiots for not joining a union. There's many very respectable, hardworking, and productive PEOPLE, not 'workers' who aren't union and they do very well for themselves. Just like there's union folks who do well for themselves too. (Sadly, they all lose when conceited Liberals who love the world more than america smugly gloss over free trade as 'thats the way it always was, ahem).

But like a good conceited Liberal, you're an absolutist hell bent on telling others what's best for them.

Which is why, I'm pleased to see the status quo and future as it now will be.

Obama 2012

more more more!

JediG

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844540 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 9:33 PM
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They aren't idiots for not joining a union. There's many very respectable, hardworking, and productive PEOPLE, not 'workers' who aren't union and they do very well for themselves.

Of course. You really need to go back an re-read my post. You're attacking a straw man of your own making.

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844554 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/12/2012 10:22 PM
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I won't re=read it, I barely read it the 1st time.

*click* another billion in debt. LOL

Obama 2012

JediG

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844576 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/13/2012 2:20 AM
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markand454 wrote: Hmmmmm. So it's idiotic to not join the union? Why are you worried about a law that makes membership optional then? If it's that good of a deal you would not have to force people to join would you.


Isn't that the same rationale East Germany used for the wall? "We're so great, we gotta build a wall to keep the hoards of people out."

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844579 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/13/2012 4:01 AM
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Apparently, it has a very limited universe of experience.

Wessex

_____________________

What a weasel.:) Replying to someone else to dodge speaking to me directly.

Apparently you only see and read what you want to about others.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844602 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/13/2012 9:02 AM
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I won't re=read it, I barely read it the 1st time.

I could tell.


click* another billion in debt. LOL

Thanks to short-sighted policies you supported and support.

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844647 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/13/2012 11:44 AM
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If that's the case, I support those very policies 10 times more now.

LOL

Obama Reid Pelosi, 2012

But somehow Jedi has more power over debt.

Somewhere out there are a conference table, budget cuts are being discussed at school.

GOOD.

JediG

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Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844650 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/13/2012 11:50 AM
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Because there are always enough idiots and free-riders to screw it up for everyone else.

But if you're numbers are accurate, to think that "right-to-work" laws are the death unions you would have to believe union workers are incredibly stupid. If even only a quarter of them continued to pay dues they would be paying $1600 a year for $10,000 in benefits, a pretty good return on their investment.

Then again, if the union couldn't even convince a quarter of its members to keep paying dues, would it be any good at negotiating with management?

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844692 of 1976935
Subject: Re: Short-sighted Date: 12/13/2012 1:04 PM
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if wages drop that far that fast, the union will see a massive increase in membership and power again, and will then be able to renegotiate from a position of strength.

Just like that? I don't think unions do well in a boom/bust membership cycle. It needs to be an ongoing process.

Reminds me of the 'little rascals' - Our Gang - m.o. When faced with a monetary problem, Spanky or Darla chirp,
"I know.... Let's put on a show!"

The founding and growth of unions was slow and difficult, fraught with violence, skullduggery, slow legal proceedings.

This idea that a union will suddenly swell, firing on all cylinders, when a union is suddenly needed ignores the difficulty and complexity of creating a viable labor union.

Meanwhile, human beings suffer.... getting chewed up by management with no fallback position.

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