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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 76106  
Subject: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 1:37 PM
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We are expecting to retire next year with DH in his mid 50's. We had thought to draw down on our 401K and savings, converting a large amount of TIRAs to Roth at our lower tax rate in retirement, taking SS when DH hits 70 and I am full retirement age, (FRA.) Our reasons for this approach is to minimize RMDs at 70, and to max out the death benefit for me should DH predecease me. If we do not reduce our TIRA exposure, RMDs will cause significant taxation in retirement. We also have a couple of moderate pensions that should come into play, though for the most part we have not factored them into our calculations as we have a hard time understanding what they will amount to.

Or we could simply do SEPP withdrawals and keep our non-retirement funds invested with an eye to tax minimization. This would draw down our TIRAs and further build our non-retirement funds.

Further complicating this is that we will have a senior and a freshman in college at retirement. Because of the amount of cash we have on hand, we do not qualify for financial aid. But retirement funds do not count towards your EFC, or effective family contribution...the amount you are expected to pay before being considered for aid. So perhaps it makes sense to buy a deferred payout annuity with our non-retirement funds, taking funds from the 401K or Sepp TIRA as needed. This might have the benefit of discounting our college costs, providing a "guaranteed" income stream down the road, (assuming the insurer stays solvent,) and allowing us to reduce the impact of TIRA RMDs.

An idea worth considering?

IP
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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75168 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 2:12 PM
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An idea worth considering?

Upon the purchase of any "low-cost" life annuity, the insurance company immediately takes 20% to 30% of the premium paid for their various fees, expenses and costs. You need to balance that against whatever increase in financial aid you'd qualify for.

The high cost of a no-fee, no-commission Single Premium Immediate Annuity (SPIA).
http://retireearlyhomepage.com/annuity_costs.html

</snip>


intercst

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75169 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 2:22 PM
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To summarize, your most important question is that you are considering a non-qualified deferred annuity so that you can better qualify for financial aid for your children?

(There is no reason to really do a comparison of your SS and RMD situation without adding in the pensions so until you have those numbers, I would wait on any conversion decision. Those "moderate" pensions will have a significant impact on your decision.)

Now regarding the taxable money, the alternative is to leave this money in cash or what? You state that retirement funds do not count toward EFC, have you confirmed that a non-qualified annuity would be consider retirement funds under that scenario?

One would have to measure the opportunity cost. What investment opportunity are you giving up for putting that money into an annuity. What benefit (i.e. how much financial aid) are you likely to gain from such a move?

Which is greater when you factor in whatever return you expect on the money in the annuity? Note, with the annuity, you need not necessarily take income from it in the future. You could simply cash it in at maturity and pay taxes on whatever gains you experience.

If your analysis warrants further research, I would consider looking into a 3-5 yr fixed annuity - assuming you are only doing this to game the EFC and are not looking to make much money in the process.

Last I checked, I NYLife and The Principal offered a 3 and a 5 yr.

If you are trying to replace a taxable stock investment something that might get comparable returns, I would look for an A share VA (they charge an upfront fee instead of a back-end charge and cost you less every year) There are also a handful of low-fee VAs out there that you might find at places like Fidelity and Vanguard.

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75171 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 2:30 PM
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Upon the purchase of any "low-cost" life annuity, the insurance company immediately takes 20% to 30% of the premium paid for their various fees, expenses and costs. You need to balance that against whatever increase in financial aid you'd qualify for.

The high cost of a no-fee, no-commission Single Premium Immediate Annuity (SPIA).
http://retireearlyhomepage.com/annuity_costs.html

</snip>

intercst


As I mentioned in my post, I am looking at deferred payout annuity, not an immediate. The cost structure is considerably different, from my limited examination.

IP

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75172 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 2:43 PM
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To summarize, your most important question is that you are considering a non-qualified deferred annuity so that you can better qualify for financial aid for your children?

That would be more of an icing on the cake than the primary reason.

(There is no reason to really do a comparison of your SS and RMD situation without adding in the pensions so until you have those numbers, I would wait on any conversion decision. Those "moderate" pensions will have a significant impact on your decision.)

Just analyzing the TIRAs for RMDs is going to kill us if we don't convert or draw down a significant portion before then. I would think adding in the pension would just make it worse, and in no way better. We need to be very proactive in dealing with this from year one, or the problem will just compound.

You state that retirement funds do not count toward EFC, have you confirmed that a non-qualified annuity would be consider retirement funds under that scenario?

Yes, this is the basis of an entire industry for parents of college age kids.

Note, with the annuity, you need not necessarily take income from it in the future. You could simply cash it in at maturity and pay taxes on whatever gains you experience.

Is this with all types of annuities, or just variable? Are annuities subject to RMDs at all?

...assuming you are only doing this to game the EFC and are not looking to make much money in the process.

Looking also to diversify risk of payout from market turmoil. Currently very heavily subject to stock and bond market volatility, which I recently posted uncertainty over.

The little research I've done on this was on the Vanguard website. Unfortunately, they want me to call to discuss it, and I am not ready for that.

Thanks for your input,

IP

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Author: BruceCM Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75173 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 2:52 PM
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IP
You have given a pretty good picture and raised at least 3 actionable issues...if I'm reading your posting correctly.

Think about what the EFC is saying.....the difference between the allowable college costs and the EFC is, usually, what the student can get in Stafford loads, thus loans at a lower interest rate where the interest can be capitalized to the loan whose payments begin within 6 months of graduation. How much is this worth to you over a conventional student loan, vs. paying for it as you go? Trying to change the character of your (parents) assets to increase the amount of the college cost that you can get a lower interest rate on may wind up being a lot of work for not much financial benefit...or maybe it will. But I would look at this first.

You have a lot of household cash flow issues. At my financial planning business, we would load all of this up into MoneyTree and it would give us nice cash flow projections, estimated taxes along the way and provide a great starting point for the 'what-ifs' of delaying this, converting that, paying this periodic expense here or there or withdrawing something else. But you really need to start with comprehensive cash flow projections, which for most, means Excel.

I would NOT buy an annuity, of any shape or flavor. Like a condo at retirement, they have one...AND ONLY ONE...feature: convenience, which for a life annuity means reliable income without having to think about anything or do anything. Now, for many, this is a feature that trumps the costs...I call them 'annuity personalities'. But clearly, you are not of this lineage. There are much better ways of providing stable income without the added expense, inflexibility and purchasing power risk of an annuity.

BruceM

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75174 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 2:59 PM
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inparadise writes,

As I mentioned in my post, I am looking at deferred payout annuity, not an immediate. The cost structure is considerably different, from my limited examination.

</snip>


Have you run a discounted present value of an annuity calculation and compared it to the quote?

A 20% to 30% skim rate seems to be about the minimum for any kind of insurance product.

intercst

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75175 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 3:06 PM
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Just analyzing the TIRAs for RMDs is going to kill us if we don't convert or draw down a significant portion before then. I would think adding in the pension would just make it worse, and in no way better. We need to be very proactive in dealing with this from year one, or the problem will just compound.

Then I think you answered your own question. :) Seek the advice of a tax professional and get those conversions started.

The best thing about them is that you can undo them if you find out you did too much.

Is this with all types of annuities, or just variable? Are annuities subject to RMDs at all?

For annuities with surrender charges (many/most), you can simply cash them in at the end of the surrender charge period - often 5-7 years. IRA or non-IRA is not relevant. This also applies to both fixed and variable. Annuities are subject to RMDs for IRA dollars, not non-qualified dollars. Taxation on non-qal is "last-in, first-out" so the first dollars you take out of them will be any gains; to be taxed as income.

Looking also to diversify risk of payout from market turmoil.

A variable annuity will not necessarily protect against such though it can, for an additional fee. Fixed annuities would basically be treated like a zero coupon treasury held to maturity so it can but your yield will also reflect such limited risk.

Unfortunately, they want me to call to discuss it,

Ya, this side of the industry is not big on putting their information out there for everyone (including the competition) to see.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75176 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 3:18 PM
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convenience, which for a life annuity

I think the OP was considering a deferred annuity, not an immediate annuity.

Very different consideration.

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Author: ptheland Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75179 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 3:25 PM
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Just analyzing the TIRAs for RMDs is going to kill us if we don't convert or draw down a significant portion before then.

Your first RMD is just under 3.7% of the balance in your IRAs. It grows from there to about 5% of your IRA balance at age 79, crosses 7% at age 86, and is still under 10% at age 92.

These are all based on the balance in the accounts as of the beginning of the year.

If you are anticipating being in the 25% bracket or higher without your IRA RMDs, I'd agree that starting a withdrawal or Roth conversion plan now makes a lot of sense.

--Peter

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75180 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 3:31 PM
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Think about what the EFC is saying.....the difference between the allowable college costs and the EFC is, usually, what the student can get in Stafford loads, thus loans at a lower interest rate where the interest can be capitalized to the loan whose payments begin within 6 months of graduation. How much is this worth to you over a conventional student loan, vs. paying for it as you go? Trying to change the character of your (parents) assets to increase the amount of the college cost that you can get a lower interest rate on may wind up being a lot of work for not much financial benefit...or maybe it will. But I would look at this first.

Bruce,

The uncertainty of all this is exactly why financial aid would be the icing on the cake and not the primary reason for getting an annuity. We already have the cash set aside for their school, and in fact it would be part of what we would use to buy the annuity. But either way, we are looking to reduce our exposure to TIRAs and their resulting RMDs at 70. If we had been smarter about this we would not have put so much into retirement funds, but being compulsive savers we just did. At least we are hopefully waking up from auto pilot long enough to realize that we can exit the rat race on the early side, and make this compulsive saving work for us. Not complaining, just trying to optimize our use of the funds and minimize donations to Uncle Sam. I tend to over think things, but hashing things out over and over and over tends to help me sleep at night.

We've worked with a financial planner, and based on his projections and our estimates of expenses, (pretty darned low as we are very low maintenance people without debt,) our principal will triple by the time we die, leaving our kids way wealthier than they should be. I've confirmed this with my own spreadsheets and financial calculator runs. I suspect that after a few years of kayaking out the back yard and seeing if our assumptions have merit, we will start branching out and spending more on adventure travel, but stuff doesn't really tempt us. From a cash flow POV, I am not so much worried about having enough, but insuring against our assumptions being incorrect would be lovely.

That said, our FA is pretty vanilla, and I am always open to switching to someone that thinks outside the box. I can't help but feel there is going to be a need for that in the not so distant future.

IP

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75181 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 3:33 PM
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Thanks Hawkin.

IP

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75185 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 5:22 PM
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inparadise

<<<You state that retirement funds do not count toward EFC, have you confirmed that a non-qualified annuity would be consider retirement funds under that scenario?>>>

"Yes, this is the basis of an entire industry for parents of college age kids."

But it is not entirely accurate.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/troyonink/2014/02/14/how-assets-...

Decent article.

""Consumer Beware: Non-qualified annuities DO get counted on the CSS Profile, but not the FAFSA. Heed this warning before you decide to put all your liquid assets in insurance and annuity products to “hide them” for aid purposes. Read my post onBad College Advice. Life insurance and annuities definitely have their place of course, but often not as peddled at local aid nights."

Not sure whether either or your sons attends a school that requires the CSS Profile in addition to the FAFSA.

"However, there are about 300 colleges which require that the CSS Profile be completed in addition to the FAFSA. Those colleges use the CSS profile to assess the student’s eligibility for the their own institutional aid dollars.

Typically, “Profile” colleges are very selective private colleges, including the Ivies, but the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, Georgia Institute of Technology and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill are examples of flagship state universities that require the Profile, not just the FAFSA."

Id.

And as someone noted, FA is often in the form of student loans, which may or may not be better than paying in cash.

Regards, JAFO

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75186 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 5:31 PM
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THANKS JAFO!

Indeed, Eldest's school is on that list. Don't know about Youngest yet, since we still have a year of high school to get through.

Guess I can stop my research now. Never was a great fan of frosting, anyway.

IP

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75188 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/9/2014 6:08 PM
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inparadise: "THANKS JAFO!"

You are welcome.

Regards, JAFO

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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75193 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/10/2014 8:54 AM
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The uncertainty of all this is exactly why financial aid would be the icing on the cake and not the primary reason for getting an annuity. We already have the cash set aside for their school, and in fact it would be part of what we would use to buy the annuity.

If you used the cash you have set aside to buy the annuity, where would their college funds come from? If you have to then sell stock to pay their tuition, you'd still have a capital gains tax hit, and you may be selling stock at an inopportune time.

When we looked at some of those annuity programs that are touted to help the kids get more financial aid, one of the conditions on the annuity was that your money was locked up for 10 years. Not sure if that is still the case since it has been a few years, but that is something you'd want to ask.

Also, I had a fundamental problem with giving my money to an insurance company in the hopes that they would still be financially solvent when it came time for me to start taking distributions, and I couldn't stand losing the control on that money in case I needed it for anything else. That was essentially a non-starter for me right there.

But either way, we are looking to reduce our exposure to TIRAs and their resulting RMDs at 70. If we had been smarter about this we would not have put so much into retirement funds, but being compulsive savers we just did.

I admit that I'm not understanding the issue here. You took a tax deduction when you contributed that money into those tax-deferred accounts, so you always knew that the money would have taxes owed on it once you started taking distributions. As with most people, I'm guessing that you were hoping to be in a lesser tax bracket, but even if you are in the same tax bracket, you end up in the same place tax-wise.

We've worked with a financial planner, and based on his projections and our estimates of expenses, (pretty darned low as we are very low maintenance people without debt,) our principal will triple by the time we die, leaving our kids way wealthier than they should be. I've confirmed this with my own spreadsheets and financial calculator runs.

Given that your numbers are working out that you will have plenty to spend during your lifetime and still leave a big pile to your kids, I do think you are overthinking this. Perhaps if you just think about it as paying the taxes now that you did not pay earlier instead of perhaps thinking of it as paying more taxes than you should, it would relieve some of the stress of the situation, and you could more go with the flow.

You should be congratulated on saving so well, and this really is a good problem to have. Take the time to enjoy the fruits of your labor now that you can.

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75194 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/10/2014 9:29 AM
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Thanks for your input, 2gifts. You are right, it is a good problem to have and I am no doubt overthinking it. Bizarrely, that is fun for me, kind of like puzzle solving. I am not stressing over it, just being analytical. And that has paid off, thanks to JAFO's link, which had a secondary link to "tax aid" strategy for families that won't qualify for financial aid. http://www.forbes.com/sites/troyonink/2013/07/30/college-tax...

If you used the cash you have set aside to buy the annuity, where would their college funds come from? If you have to then sell stock to pay their tuition, you'd still have a capital gains tax hit, and you may be selling stock at an inopportune time.

"Cash" was a less than precise term, used more to avoid the need for multiple words to differentiate between tax qualified and non-qualified funds. We don't keep much in cash. We have two years college expenses in Ibonds earning 6% and tax free when cashed in for higher ed, as well as another year in a Coverdell. The rest would just come from SEPP of IRAs or our 401K which can be tapped at 55, but that is theoretical thanks again to JAFO who showed me the error of my thought process. LOVE THESE BOARDS!

Also, I had a fundamental problem with giving my money to an insurance company in the hopes that they would still be financially solvent when it came time for me to start taking distributions, ...

Yup, big problem for me too, right up there with LTHC insurance and a big part of why we chose to self-insure. But I am glad I thought it through since now I can reject the option happily for reasons other than admittedly being a control freak. ;-)

You took a tax deduction when you contributed that money into those tax-deferred accounts, so you always knew that the money would have taxes owed on it once you started taking distributions. As with most people, I'm guessing that you were hoping to be in a lesser tax bracket, but even if you are in the same tax bracket, you end up in the same place tax-wise.

Again for me the problem boils down to lack of control, in this case RMDs making me take funds when it is not advantageous. I confess I did a lot better with my investing than I ever expected to do, so the accounts have ballooned to a much larger amount than we put in, and we could be in a higher tax bracket in retirement than while working. Yes, again a good problem to have, and one for which I have about 15 years to implement a solution. And that solution will involve paying taxes, which I have no problem with. However, if there is something I can do to minimize that tax impact, I will do it if the action does not result in costing us in other ways.

What can I say. I was a research scientist before kids, and need the stimulation of brain exercises like this as a SAHM or I would go nuts. TMF and learning how to invest kept me sane. DH has a very different investing risk tolerance than I, so at his request I handed over the investing reigns to a financial adviser a few years ago, leaving analyzing overall strategy as about all I have for brain exercises.

IP,
no doubt more lucky than good

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Author: ptheland Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75197 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/10/2014 11:28 AM
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However, if there is something I can do to minimize that tax impact, I will do it if the action does not result in costing us in other ways.

There might be a small amount to be gained by watching where you hold various investments. I wrote this a while back, talking about what assets to hold in which account. http://boards.fool.com/i-think-there-is-a-small-difference-b...

The gist of it is to keep your ordinary income assets (fixed income, bonds, short term stock plays) in your traditional IRA since that income is going to be taxed at ordinary rates anyway. Put your long-term stocks and your dividend generating stocks in ordinary accounts to take advantage of the lower tax rates on that kind of income.

--Peter

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 75199 of 76106
Subject: Re: Should an Annuity be Part of My Plan? Date: 6/10/2014 2:39 PM
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Thanks Peter. Had our FA make that shift a while ago. Sadly, I had to be the one to come up with the idea, which frustrates me to no end. Would love to find a guy who can think beyond which fund to throw our money into, though admittedly, he does well in that department.

IP

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