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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1977374  
Subject: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 11:33 AM
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Arafat complained that only the Palestinian side is ever required to denounce terror. Predictably, the Palestinian denunciation later mumbles that they "deplore the murder of civilians on both sides."

Perhaps the Arabs who call themselves "Palestinians" have a point? So to set the record straight and in the name of the Jewish People, I do hereby denounce the following:

1. All Jewish suicide bombers who have ever murdered civilian Arabs minding their own business on Arab streets, in Arab cities and on Arab land.

2. All Jewish terrorist leaders who have recruited teenagers and women to wear belts with attached explosive devices, containing nails and bolts laced with rat poison to prevent blood-clotting and to ensure profuse bleeding to death of Arab civilians injured by these suicide bombings.

3. All Arab pizza parlors, malls, discotheques, restaurants and buses blown up by Jewish terrorists in which Arab infants, children, elderly, teenagers, women and men have been shredded and slaughtered.

4. All airliners and ships hijacked by Jews in which elderly or disabled Arabs were executed in cold blood.

5. All Ramadan and Muslim feasts targeted by Jewish bombers and timed by the Jewish state of Israel in which to launch a military attack to destroy an Arab nation and drive an Arab homeland into the sea.

6. All Arabs paraded in public and lynched by Jews in Israeli cities simply for being Arabs while crowds of Jews applaud and cheer.

7. All Arab Olympic athletes kidnapped at gunpoint, held hostage and then murdered by Jews.

8. All mosques, Arab holy sites, burial grounds or cemeteries and religious schools fire bombed or desecrated by Jews in the Middle East, North Africa, France, Belgium, Germany, Britain and the rest of Europe.

9. All Arab hostages humiliated and beheaded on videotape by their Jewish captors and then broadcast on Jewish websites and Israeli media.

10. All Jewish governments that pay off the families of Jewish suicide bombers that have murdered Arabs and hold official telethons to raise money for these terrorists and support recruitment for future suicide bombers that murder innocent civlian Arabs.

Does that about cover it?







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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532779 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 11:38 AM
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Does that about cover it?

Nope, eolith, you forgot the Zionist armed forces, the so-called 'IDF', the biggest terror organization in the world.

Bringing terror on a daily base to millions of Palestinians - IDF

Never mind.

Abe

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Author: bigcaat Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532781 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 11:50 AM
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Does that about cover it?

Sure. I'm good.

Caat

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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532794 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 12:29 PM
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Since you live in Germany, perhaps you can help me understand something. Is ignorance or sheer hatred or a combination that leads Germans against the Jewish state of Israel in favor of Israel's enemies who are terrorists bent on destroying the Jewish homeland?

How is it that Germans, who themselves today have grandfathers and great grandfathers that committed the genocide of six million Jews in Europe, remain such ardent supporters of the ongoing Arab obsession and purpose to actually finish the mass murder of the Jewish people that the Nazis began? Is it because they the Germans have never gotten over their own murderous hatred of Jews? That they the German have never cast off the very sort of violent bloodlust that led their grandfathers and great grandfathers to such evil acts of inhumanity?

Where is the conscience of the German people now when it comes to reparations for the atrocities against six million Jews, many of whom still cry out from the gas chambers and ovens of Auschwitz? Have the Germans paid one German mark or one Euro toward the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel or in support of the resettlement of Jewish refugees in their homeland since the Holocaust and the mass murder?

Anyone honest and reasonable observer who knows the history and the reality of Israel understands that all the land west of the Jordan River has always been Jewish land. The Arabs since 1964 begun calling themselves "Palestinians" remain as the refugees from hell who won't ever go away until and unless Israel is utterly destoyed. These same Arabs who have never been victims of Israel are in fact the same Arabs who have always simply remained the victims of their own hatred of Israel. That's a huge difference that Jew haters always ignore in their propaganda disinformation campaigns.

What other refugees have ever existed for the sole purpose of destroying another nation? What other refugees have refused to give up their plight as refugees so long as another people live in their own homeland? With these same Arabs living as "refugees" in Judea and Samaria for more than half a century, a portion of the time under the control of the Jordanian government, they have worn their status as refugees like a badge of honor and used their plight as if it were a banner of resistance against the existence of Israel. Only the Arabs calling themselves "Palestinians refugees" remain as a people claiming another people's homeland as their own and doing it with a mass martyr complex.

eolith.

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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532795 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 12:32 PM
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The Land of Israel for the People of Israel

Did you know these important facts?


• The Jewish people existed 2000 years before the establishment of Islam.

• Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital for over 3,300 years, and was never an Arab or Muslim capital.

• Jerusalem is mentioned 700 times in the Bible, while the Koran does not contain a single reference to Jerusalem.

• There has been a Jewish Majority in Jerusalem since before 1850.

• The Jewish People pray facing Jerusalem, while the Arabs pray with their backs to Jerusalem, in the direction of Mecca.

• The PLO was established in 1964 while eastern Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) were under Arab control. Rather than establishing a political entity out of the this, the PLO used the territory as a base of attack with the aim of "liberating" the rest of Israel.

• The Arabs have 500 times more land mass than Israel.

• The Arabs have 21 states; The Jews have only one Homeland.




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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532798 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 12:36 PM
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Hi eolith,

'Does that about cover it?'

Not really.

You could however make amends by just deploring all terror inflicted by anyone on anyone for any reason rather than condoning some of it as you seem, by implication, in your post.

Cheers, Shaggy

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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532804 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 12:58 PM
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Have the Germans paid one German mark or one Euro toward the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel or in support of the resettlement of Jewish refugees in their homeland since the Holocaust and the mass murder?

eolith,

I'm neither a nationalist nor a racist nor a religious nuthead, so your rant doesn't bother me at all. Anyway, as it seems that you're so ignorant about the facts, the post-WWII German government has been supporting the Zionist entity since the very moment it was able to raise any money for that purpose.
http://www.gainfo.org/SFPT/GermanGovernmentIndemnificationSummaryJan2001.htm

The Arabs since 1964 begun calling themselves "Palestinians" remain as the refugees from hell who won't ever go away until and unless Israel is utterly destroyed.

a.t-.Tabarî in his 'History of the Kings and Prophets' already called Palestine Palestine, when he described how the Arabs conquered the land from the Byzanztines. And 'Israel', as you choose to call the Zionist entity, is a historical ephemeron, just another Crusader state. It's 1244 will come soonner or later.

All the best,

Abe



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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532809 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 1:14 PM
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I condone all measures of self-defense by Israeli forces. This seems to be your objection and the objection of ohers like you. Israel is never guilty of terrorism, despite the absurd claims of Israel's detractors to equate targeting the practitioners of terror and murder with the terrorists and murderers themselves. Israel never targets Arab civilians who aren't militant terrorists attacking and murdering Jewish Israeli civilians. Israel has always taken military actions against Arab terrorists in retaliation for murderous attacks. Those attacks have always been measured and proportionate to the crimes and the threats being lodged against the Jewish state. Because Arab terrorism and those serial murders against Jewish civilians have become so frequent and so widespread as to constitute an ongoing war, it has become necessary in the past year for the Israeli government to engage a military campaign to take out the Arab terrorists and murderers in Judea and Samaria and in Gaza. I say it should been embarked upon many years ago. I not only condone this campaign to finish off the Arab butchers, I whole-heartedly applaud and celebrate its every success.

Arab children are killed accidently and killed inadvertently by Israeli forces attacking terrorist strong holds, but the main responsibility of those sad and tragic deaths rests squarely with the Arab terrorists themselves and their Arab sympaticos and supporters. I always regret tremendously the deaths of Arab children and non-militant civilians in Israeli attacks. Israeli forces never target children or non-militant civilians. Israeli forces always seek to avoid children and civlians in their necessary attacks to root out and kill off Arab terrorists attacking and murdering Jewish children and civilians routinely. That's precisely why Arab terrorists hide among the Arab civilian population, especially where there are Arab children. They know that Israeli forces will refrain from an all out attack when civilians and children are present. And if the narrowly targeted attacks of Israel by chance accidently kill an Arab child, the Arabs themselves will take full advantage and count the death as a photo opportunity and call in the cameras from the Jew-hating media in the West such as the BBC and other European broadcasters and get the anti-Israeli public relations war campaign on full throttle to stir anti-Israeli sentiment throughout the world. That always get the Jew haters in Europe up in arms.

That's why Israel must take a more humane path to end the refugee camps once and for all and resettle these "Palestinian" Arabs in Arab nations on Arab land. Only when the land Judea and Samaria is safely annexed by Israel and settled with Jewish communities throughout that Jewish land shall peace have a chance in the Middle East. The destruction of Israel demanded by the Arabs and advocated by the Europeans is not an option. The Jewish state of Israel stays.

The Arab terrorists must go.

eolith.



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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532810 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 1:14 PM
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Anyone honest and reasonable observer who knows the history and the reality of Israel understands that all the land west of the Jordan River has always been Jewish land.

BTW, eolith,

this statement says a lot about what you consider honest and reasonable.

Abe



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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532815 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 1:16 PM
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'Israel never targets Arab civilians who aren't militant terrorists attacking and murdering Jewish Israeli civilians.......'


I think I'll stop there as I have better things to do than listen to someones muffled noise from their nether regions.

Shaggy

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Author: Ahote Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532817 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 1:17 PM
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That's why Israel must .......resettle these "Palestinian" Arabs in Arab nations on Arab land.

They tried that form of ethnic cleansing (because that's what itr is)_ before already - didn't work.

It's just not that easy to steal a country eolith.

Ahote

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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532819 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 1:23 PM
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That's why Israel must take a more humane path to end the refugee camps once and for all and resettle these "Palestinian" Arabs in Arab nations on Arab land. Only when the land Judea and Samaria is safely annexed by Israel and settled with Jewish communities throughout that Jewish land shall peace have a chance in the Middle East. The destruction of Israel demanded by the Arabs and advocated by the Europeans is not an option. The Jewish state of Israel stays.

The Arab terrorists must go.

eolith.


eolith,

in my eyes all those ethnic cleaners of your kind are just soiling the good name of Judaism. It's important for the reasonable people in this world to keep in mind that Zionism is a racist and nationalist ideology that should never be confounded with Judaism.

Best regards,

Abe

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532820 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 1:25 PM
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Does that about cover it?

Add in all Jewish leaders whose policies include mass theft of land that does not belong to the State of Israel, extra-judicial murder of anyone deemed to be an enemy of the State of Israel, the authorisation of attacks on Palestinian gatherings, processions, buildings and cars that are guaranteed to lead to massive loss of innocent lives, ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to further the process of land theft and the building of edifices that are designed to wall in, deprive of their livelihoods and ruin the quality of life of innocent Palestinians and we might have a workable list, eolith.


CF











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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532823 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 1:46 PM
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Anibaldo:

"And 'Israel', as you choose to call the Zionist entity, is a historical ephemeron, just another Crusader state. It's 1244 will come soonner or later."


Does this mean you reject the right of Israel to exist or that you just believe that Israel is destined to not exist ultimately?

Does this mean you predict and advocate the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel?

Does this mean that you fail to understand the meaning of six million Jews mass murdered by Germans and the profound need for a Jewish homeland in the Jewish state of Israel?

eolith.




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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532828 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 2:02 PM
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eolith,

regarding your questions:

Zionism is a political movement organically related to world Imperialism and hostile to all movements of liberation and progress in the world. It is a racist and fanatical movement in its formation: agressive, expansionist and colonialist in its aims; and fascist and Nazi in its means.

'Israel' is the tool of the Zionist movement and a human and geographical base for world Imperialism. It is a concentration and jumping-off point for Imperialism in the heart of the Arab homeland, to strike at the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity and progress.


Best regards,

Abe

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Author: deejay7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532830 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 2:03 PM
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Does that about cover it?

I find it hard to understand people like you who condemn the terrorists who use suicide bombings, but condone the terrorists who use aircraft, tanks and bulldozers. Tell me, is it ignorance or stupidity!

BTW, I think you'll find Ariel Sharon is responsible for more Palestinian deaths than all the suicide bombers put together!!!

deejay7

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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532838 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 2:27 PM
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WHO ARE THE PALESTINIANS?
WHAT & WHERE is PALESTINE?


There is a preliminary historical fact that must be established now. There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world!

There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language. Furthermore, there has never been a Palestinian state governed BY Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964... three years BEFORE the Arabs of "Palestine" lost the Judea and Samaria and Gaza as a result of the 1967 Six-Day War (which the Arabs started).


No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948 with the rebirth of the 2nd Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land. A mighty Jewish empire extended over this entire area before the Arabs --- and their Islam --- were even born!

The Jewish People have one of the most legitimate Birth Certificates of any nations in the world. Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The coins, the pottery, the ancient texts... all support this claim. Other peoples have passed through, but there is no mistaking the fact that Jews have always had a continual presence in that land for over 3,000 years.


THE RETURN TO ZION
A return through both time and space to their ancestral homeland

The Land of Israel was never devoid of Jews, although at times she numbered only in the tens of thousands. This was because the land was virtually uninhabitable when the Jews returned en masse to the land of their forefathers (the Zionist Movement) in the 1880s. The silly rhetoric about a massive Arab presence being overrun by "invading Jews" is quickly dispelled by Mark Twain, who visited the area in 1867. From his book, "The Innocents Abroad"... "A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

The Jews did not displace anyone, because very few of the people who were there actually owned the land. Most were absentee owners residing elsewhere. Another fact hardly mentioned by the "new historians" is that the arriving Jews never threw anyone off any land. All land was purchased legally from the original owners... whether they be from "Palestine" itself or elsewhere. Furthermore, top dollar was paid for this land which, in many cases, was uninhabited and hardly more than swamp land and rocky terrain. Only about 120,000 Arabs resided in an area that now comprises the State of Israel, Jordan and the so-called "West Bank" [Judea and Samaria] in between. By 1890, the number of Jews who had settled in Palestine reached 50,000 and, by 1907, numbered 100,000. In Jerusalem alone the Jews numbered more than 25,000, out of a total population in the city of only 40,000 Jews, Christians and Arabs. The Arabs did, however, constitute a majority over the sparsely populated countryside abutting Jerusalem.


Palestine's early Jewish Zionists were idealistic pioneers who arrived in pre-state Israel with every intention of living in peace alongside their Arab neighbors and upgrading the quality of life for all of the land's inhabitants. These pre-Israel Zionists (and later, Israelis) had tried to develop peacefully for the dual benefit of Jews and Arabs in the land. But the Arab leadership always, starting in the earliest days, took the low road of insisting that the only solution was for the Jews to get out, even if that meant continued poverty and stagnation. When Arab demands were not met, they always resorted to violence.

The vast majority of Arabs came to the area after these early Zionist pioneers began draining the malaria-infested swamps (above photo) and plowing the land! In doing so, these Jews created the economic opportunities and medical availabilities which attracted Arabs from both surrounding territories and far-away lands!

In fact, over 90% of the Arabs migrated there within the last one hundred years. Most of the Arabs in "Palestine" were interlopers and squatters originating from Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and other lands who simply took possession of pieces of land. So much for their unfounded claims that they have been there since "time immemorial!"

These Arabs came from disorganized collections of tribes with a tradition of constantly terrorizing each other and trying to seize land from their neighbors. Many of them were social outcasts and criminals who could not find jobs in their own countries so they searched for their luck elsewhere. Unfortunately, those Arab immigrants imported into the Holy Land their age-old culture of terrorizing neighbors in order to seize land. In fact, today's Arab "Palestinians", let by Arafat and his PLO (sanitized to the PA, or Palestinian Authority...which is nothing more than A Network of Murderers Masquerading As Government!) are still nothing more than street thugs, bullies and 'Little Saddams' found elsewhere throughout most of the most Arab world.

Yet while the returning Jews were highly motivated to restore the land, the Arabs seethed with envy and hatred for they lacked both the leadership to inspire and motivate them for they were, in fact, historical strangers to this land! Unlike the Jews, those Arabs who immigrated there had no ancient attachments to or historical memories of this homeland ... this ancient Land of the Jews!

The real problem facing those Arabs today is not the lack of a homeland. The historical root-cause of their problem and frustration is the fact that the countries they came from have not agreed to accept them back in. This is why so many of them live, up until today, in refugee camps, in neighboring Arab countries, lacking fundamental civil rights. In their frustration they feel that the only hope and choice they have is to try and steal someone else's country!

In Conclusion:

There was no "Arab Palestinian" history before the Arabs manufactured one shortly after 1948, and then especially after the June 1967 Arab-Israeli War! In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" has always been synonymous with Eretz Israel and the Land of Israel.

Archeological sites to this very day continue to yield artifacts with Hebrew writing, not some fictitious "Palestinian" or Arabic text! The so-called "Palestinian" Arabs were simply then, as they are now, Arabs no different culturally, historically or ethnically from other Arabs living in any of the 24 Arab countries from which they emigrated. The suggestion that the "Palestinians" are some sub-group of Arabs with their own unique identity is pure fiction! Great propaganda... but still pure fiction! And had not the Arabs continued to brainwash generation upon generation into believing this HISTORICAL HOGWASH about some ancient "Arab Palestinian" ties to the Holy Land, most could have gotten themselves a real life by now with much less bloodshed and suffering for everyone concerned!


Remember: When we use their language (i.e. "West Bank" instead of Judea-Samaria, "occupied territory" instead of liberated Jewish lands, "settlements" instead of Jewish communities, "Palestinian" instead of Arab, "Haram esh Sharif" instead of the Temple Mount, etc.), we are allowing them to define the issues, create or distort history and control the debate.

GREED, PRIDE, ENVY!

The Arabs and/or Muslims of today controls 22 nations... 99½ percent of the ENTIRE Middle East land mass while Israel occupies only a 1/2 of 1 percent speck on this same map. But that's still too much land for the Arabs to spare. They want it all. How often have we heard their familiar cry, "We will fight to our last drop of blood for for every last grain of sand!" And that is ultimately what all the fighting is about today. And no matter how many land concessions the Israelis might make for "peace," it will never be enough! Any peace treaty between Israel and the Arab world are ultimately meaningless. The most recent 1993 "Oslo Peace Accord" has brought nothing but homicidal bombers into Israel. Even the Israeli-Egyptian and Israeli-Jordanian peace treaties are holding on by a single thread and, if you were to read their government-controlled newspapers, you'd think they were still at war with Israel!

PEACE IS IMPOSSIBLE!
There's No More "Middle" in the Middle East

From the moment the Jewish People re-established sovereignty in their ancient homeland, they sought genuine peace with all of their neighbors. Unfortunately, their neighbors did not wish to share a peaceful existence with them. They, like Bin Ladin today, felt that they had a religious obligation to destroy the non-Arab/Muslim Jewish State (and, for that matter, ALL non-Arab/Moslem governments in the world). The Arab campaign against Israel is rooted not in any negotiable grievances but in a basic opposition to the very existence of Jewish sovereignty in what they perceive as THEIR Middle East! The ultimate intent of the Arabs is to separate out a Jewish history from "Palestine"... and then to separate Israel from the face of the Earth.

When the Palestine Liberation Organization's (PLO) was formed in 1964, its primary goal was to destroy Israel. After the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, their goal became two-tracked: Either (1) destroy Israel outright (the same pre-1967 goal) or (2) the creation of an Arab-Palestinian state to be used as a launching pad from which to destroy Israel. Different strategies - same ultimate goal... a state not along side Israel, but IN PLACE OF Israel. It's really that simple!

For over 3,300 years of history, Jerusalem has been a capital city for only the Jewish People. Jews have always lived in Jerusalem, even when they were massacred or driven out. There has been an unbroken Jewish presence in Jerusalem for the past 3,600 years. And since the early 1800's, the population of Jerusalem has been predominantly Jewish. Even when the Jordanians captured and occupied Jerusalem from 1950-67, they (the Jordanians) never sought to change it to their capital (replacing Amman) nor make it the capital of all Arab-"Palestinian" people. Even during the 19 years Jordan "occupied" most of Jerusalem, Arab leaders from other Arab countries hardly ever bothered to visit this city! Only to the Jews has Jerusalem ever held special meaning! The reality is that Jerusalem was never an Arab capital and that it never was, until the Jews revitalized it, a dusty provincial city that hardly played and economic, social or political role.

Another myth deals with the issue of Jerusalem and its Temple Mount. The myth is that Jerusalem is really an Arab city and that it is a central focus of Islam. The truth is that the Arabs expressed very limited interest in the Temple Mount before 1967 after the Six-Day War. Besides, Mecca and Medina (both in Saudi Arabia) are Islam's holiest cities!

Islam's Holy(?) Koran mentions Mecca 2 or 3 (implied, but not actually written) times. It mentions Medina 5 times. It never mentions Jerusalem and with good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammad ever visited Jerusalem! And if he did visit Jerusalem, it could not have been until 6 years after his death. Therefore, the notion that Mohammed ascended to Heaven from a rock in Jerusalem (today's Dome of the Rock) is even more ridiculous!

One more thing about Jerusalem in general and its Temple Mount in particular. Jerusalem appears in the Jewish Bible 669 times and Zion (which usually means Jerusalem, sometimes the Land of Israel) 154 times, or 823 times in all. The Christian Bible mentions Jerusalem 154 times and Zion 7 times. All told, in the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible) and the New Testament, the terms "Judah" or "Judea" appear 877 times, and "Samaria" is used on 123 occasions.

OK, so maybe Mohammed just forget to mention "Jerusalem". Maybe he also forgot to mention the Haram-esh-Sharif, their name for Judaism's Temple Mount. Perhaps it was an honest oversight. That desert heat can do strange things to one's brain. But surely "Palestine" is mentioned all through the Koran. After all, the poo' poo' ancient "Palestinians" go way back, right? WRONG. "Palestine" and "Palestinian" are nowhere to be found. Perhaps that's because these so-called Arab "Palestinians" have ancient historical roots going ALL THE WAY back to June 1967! So much for the Arab, Muslim or "Palestinian" ancient religious or physical connections to a single ounce of turf in the so-called "occupied" territories!

From 1948 to 1967, when East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount were "occupied" by Jordanian Forces following the 1948-9 Arab-Israeli War, Jerusalem itself was ignored by the Arab world. No Arab leader ever paid a visit, not even to pray at the al-Aqsa Mosque or the Dome of the Rock (both located on the JEWISH Temple Mount). Also noteworthy during this 19 year period of Jordanian occupation' no Jews were allowed there... not that there was much for them to see since the Arabs destroyed 58 of Jerusalem's Jewish synagogues! Even the Arabs of "Palestine" placed so low a priority on Jerusalem that the PLO's founding charter, the 1964 Palestinian National Covenant, made no reference whatsoever to it. Only when the Jews recaptured it after the 1967 "Six Day War" (initiated by the Arabs) did the Arab world SUDDENLY grow very passionate about Jerusalem!

Can any Muslim in the world produce any credible evidence for their connection to this holy site, other than Mohammed's dream? Believe it or not, the one and only source for the Muslim's claim to Jerusalem and the site of the Holy Temple, is a mention in the Koran of a dream that Mohammed had about an unknown "place far away". Perhaps this "place far away" is the site of the White House in Washington DC or a Nevada "chicken ranch?"

In truth, the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa mosques are just but two of hundreds of thousands of Muslim mosques around the world. Except for these two minor mosques, Jerusalem itself has no major Islamic significance. In fact, far more Christian shrines are in Jerusalem than Muslim ones!

When a Jew prays from anywhere in the world, he faces the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. When a Moslem prays, even while IN Jerusalem, he faces Mecca (2,000 miles away in Saudi Arabia!). So in many cases, even when a Moslem is in Jerusalem, his "hind quarters" are facing these two Jerusalem mosques! What does THIS tell you! And when Islamic suicide bombers try to take apart Jerusalem piece by piece, what does THAT tell you!



WHAT IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO:
In order to have a "New Middle East,
There needs to be new Arabs!

"There are some violent conflicts in the world that simply do not lend themselves to resolution by either signatures or handshakes. The Arab-Israeli conflict is one of them. That is because there are no tangible, realistic exchanges that can be made between the two sides that would guarantee lasting peace. No exchange of territory, no compensation to refugees, no guarantee of statehood will quell the insistent [Arab-] "Palestinian" demand for Israel's extinction."
Avi Davis, WorldNetDaily Article


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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532841 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 2:41 PM
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eolith,

post whatever you want. But please don't claim to speak in the name of the Jewish people. Make it clear that your speaking on behalf of radical, extremist Zionism.

Thank you and best regards

Abe



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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532842 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 2:45 PM
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There are some violent conflicts in the world that simply do not lend themselves to resolution by either signatures or handshakes.

They said that about South Africa and about Northern Ireland.

The Arab-Israeli conflict is one of them. That is because there are no tangible, realistic exchanges that can be made between the two sides that would guarantee lasting peace. No exchange of territory, no compensation to refugees, no guarantee of statehood will quell the insistent [Arab-] "Palestinian" demand for Israel's extinction.


Public opinion polls have repeatedly shown that the MAJORITY of Palestinians are prepared to live in peace with their Israeli neighbours, if given half the chance and if given a viable Palestinian State. This is in spite of the terrible atrocities they have been subjected to at the hands of the thugs of Israel.
The argument 6hat there's no point in negotiating with the Palestinians because they simply lust for Israel's extinction is untrue, and a Zionist mantra. The Zionists simply do not want to abandon their dream of a Greater Israel, which would require them to give up the stolen real estate of the West Bank.

CF


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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532845 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 2:56 PM
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"Zionism is a political movement organically related to world Imperialism and hostile to all movements of liberation and progress in the world. It is a racist and fanatical movement in its formation: agressive, expansionist and colonialist in its aims; and fascist and Nazi in its means.

'Israel' is the tool of the Zionist movement and a human and geographical base for world Imperialism. It is a concentration and jumping-off point for Imperialism in the heart of the Arab homeland, to strike at the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity and progress.

Best regards,

Abe"



I have drawn you out! You have the temerity and the hateful ignorance to cite the Jew hating paranoid conspiracy theory of Jewish world domination? Just as the authors of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" did more than a century ago. The spirit of antisemitism is alive and well in the likes of Jew haters like yourself. If you truly cannot see the difference between a nation and a people like the Jewish state of Israel defending itself with the restrained actions to kill fewer than 5,000 Arab terrorists threatening Israel's survival on the one hand and the truly atrocious genocide of six million European Jews by German mass murderers on the other hand, then you are an ignorant and pathetic soul with a hateful bigotry against all Jews. To have the hubris and the audacity to refer to the Jewish state of Israel with such ignominious and criminal and murderous labels as "Nazi" is worthy of the most bitter contempt. Did you just finish reading Mein Kampf? You have now proclaimed all Zionists to be "Nazis" and compared them to the mass murderers of six million Jews. Hitler would be proud of you this day.

eolith.

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Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:11 PM
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eolith,

if it itches you, you might want to scratch yourself, my Dear. You might want to twist my words in every way you're pleased with. But please stop to equate Judaism to Zionism and to soil the good name of Zionism with your fantasies of ethnic cleansing.

Thank you and best regards,

Abe



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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532851 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:14 PM
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But please stop to equate Judaism to Zionism and to soil the good name of Zionism with your fantasies of ethnic cleansing.

ape,

BS

db

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Author: FULLERKZ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532853 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:15 PM
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eolith, the left is complicit with ant-semtism, anti-Zionism,and their policies are why this once traditional Dem voter block is eroding rapidly...




http://www.conceptwizard.com/pipeline_of_hatred.html


The hate Israel sentiment in the anti-war movement is costing them votes. Besides, even if you weren't spiritual, whose side of the conflict would you rather be on? The historIcal odds against attacking Jews does not favor the leftists and Dems that are against them.


Reminder to leftists: LIKE 911, WE WILL NEVER FORGET!

http://www.holocaust-history.org/hungarian-photos/jpg/05-0517.jpg






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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532855 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:21 PM
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Public opinion polls have repeatedly shown that the MAJORITY of Palestinians are prepared to live in peace with their Israeli neighbours, if given half the chance and if given a viable Palestinian State. This is in spite of the terrible atrocities they have been subjected to at the hands of the thugs of Israel.
The argument 6hat there's no point in negotiating with the Palestinians because they simply lust for Israel's extinction is untrue, and a Zionist mantra. The Zionists simply do not want to abandon their dream of a Greater Israel, which would require them to give up the stolen real estate of the West Bank.

CF


Could you please cite a single poll showing that "Palestinians" are prepared to live in peace with Israel? Just post one poll, please. Because I don't believe you for a moment. Interesting how you never mention the true atrocities by Arabs against Jews that I cited on the original post of this thread.

If "Palestinian" Arabs are so willing to live in peace with Israel, then why don't the "Palestinian" Arabs change their charter???

eolith.

"Despite claims to the contrary, the Palestinian Liberation Organization has never changed its charter declaring Israel has no right to exist, the PLO's "foreign minister" Farouk Kaddoumi said in an interview today.

Speaking to the Jordanian newspaper Al-Arab, the PLO official also said when Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat talks about the need to pursue the "struggle" against Israel, he is referring to the "armed struggle," the Jerusalem Post reported.

Kaddoumi is one of the few PLO leaders still living in exile in Tunisa.

Asked about U.S. and Israeli demands to halt terror attacks as a condition for resuming the peace process, Kaddoumi replied, according to the Jerusalem paper: "They can go to hell!"

Kaddoumi said though it is widely believed the PLO now recognizes Israel's right to existence, in fact the charter was never changed.

"The Palestinian national charter has not been amended until now," he explained. "It was said that some articles are no longer effective, but they were not changed. I'm one of those who didn't agree to any changes."

The armed struggle, he said, was the only way to force Israel to accept the demands of the Palestinians.

Kaddoumi was asked what Arafat means when he talks about the continuation of the "struggle."

He responded, according to the Post, "Yes, the national struggle must continue. I mean the armed struggle. In the past we abandoned our political parties in favor of the armed struggle.

Arafat's Fatah movement, he continued, "was established on the basis of the armed struggle and that this was the only way to leading to political negotiations that would force the enemy to accept our national aspirations. Therefore there is no struggle other than the armed military struggle."

Kaddoumi commented on Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's plan to withdraw from the Gaza Strip.

"If Israel wants to leave the Gaza Strip, then it should do so," he said told the Jordanian paper, according to the Post. "This means that the Palestinian resistance has forced it to leave. But the resistance will continue. Let the Gaza Strip be South Vietnam. We will use all available methods to liberate North Vietnam."




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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532860 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:32 PM
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To have the hubris and the audacity to refer to the Jewish state of Israel with such ignominious and criminal and murderous labels as "Nazi" is worthy of the most bitter contempt


Tell that to the Palestinians who had identification numbers written on their forearms by the IDF.


CF

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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532865 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:39 PM
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Hi CF,

'To have the hubris and the audacity to refer to the Jewish state of Israel with such ignominious and criminal and murderous labels as "Nazi" is worthy of the most bitter contempt'


Tell that to the Palestinians who had identification numbers written on their forearms by the IDF.'

Really??? Do you have a link to this?

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532866 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:40 PM
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Could you please cite a single poll showing that "Palestinians" are prepared to live in peace with Israel? Just post one poll, please.

My pleasure, eolith:

http://www.crisisweb.org/home/index.cfm?id=2384&l=1

There are other, more recent ones if you're interested.
All suggest that a decent deal would be approved by the majority of Palestinians and also by a majority of Israelis.

There is no general desire among Palestinians to sweep Israelis into the sea - just a burning need for justice and hope.

CF






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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532870 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:42 PM
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Hi CF,

Found it myself - that bloody disgusting - evil begets evil - Yuk !!!!!


"Arafat accuses IDF of 'new Nazi racism'
By Arieh O'Sullivan and News Agencies

JERUSALEM (March 12) - Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat said in an interview broadcast yesterday that the IDF's conduct while rounding up militants in West Bank refugee camps amounted to "new Nazi racism."

"You saw what they put on the detainees from Tulkarm refugee camp - those numbers on their arms?" Arafat told Abu Dhabi television, referring to a three-day sweep of the West Bank camp last week, during which troops detained hundreds of Palestinians for questioning over suspected links with terrorist groups.

..

A military source said many of the 1,200 detainees in Tulkarm had been given numbers to facilitate the questioning process. He said the numbers were written on their arms in ink that would wash off. It was the same procedure soldiers used on themselves when entering Lebanon in a convoy, the source added."

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:GrSbhKMVwO0J:www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/12/News/News.45004.html+identification+numbers+IDF&hl=en


Shocked!!!

Regs, Shaggy

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Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:43 PM
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Tell that to the Palestinians who had identification numbers written on their forearms by the IDF.


CF


eolith is in a weak position, IMHO, if he needs to bring around the German fascists, Hitler and 'Mein Kampf' in order to justify the atrocities committed by the Zionist entity during the last sixty years.

Abe


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Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:44 PM
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Tell that to the Palestinians who had identification numbers written on their forearms by the IDF.'
................

Really??? Do you have a link to this?

Regs, Shaggy



Given the Holocaust it's unbelievable but true, Shaggy:

Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz ordered a halt to the practice of Israeli troops writing identification numbers on the foreheads and forearms of Palestinian detainees awaiting interrogation during the army's incursion into the Tulkarm refugee camp on March 9. Sharon's spokesman Ra'anan Gissin acknowledged that numbering prisoners in such a way did not create an attractive media image, conjuring parallels of Nazi tattooing of concentration camp prisoners, however misleading. "If the idea was to convey a message of deterrence, clearly it conflicts with the desire to convey a public relations message," he told Army Radio.

http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0180.htm


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Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:48 PM
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eolith is in a weak position, IMHO, if he needs to bring around the German fascists, Hitler and 'Mein Kampf' in order to justify the atrocities committed by the Zionist entity during the last sixty years.

Abe



Zionism is Nazism Lite, and their Final Solution is the herding of Palestinians into the walled ghettos that are being built for them at this very moment.
And then - who knows? The historical precedents are ominous.

CF




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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532875 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 3:55 PM
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Hi CF,

'"If the idea was to convey a message of deterrence, clearly it conflicts with the desire to convey a public relations message," he [Sharon] told Army Radio.'


So acting like Nazis is 'deterrence' now - Christ, that explains it then.

Israel's 'deterrence' policy, razing houses; collective punishments, etc, are Nazi procedures that the Israeli's think are good as they have had first hand experience of them.

HOW SICK IS THAT !!!!

Disgusted - again.

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532881 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 4:03 PM
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There is no general desire among Palestinians to sweep Israelis into the sea - just a burning need for justice and hope.

CF

EO,

I have to happily agree with CF. Both sides want to end this violent stuff. Both sides want a Palestinian state.

Most American Jews want to see a state of Palestine. We all need to live together.

Israel can more than defend herself. Lets get on with tearing down the settlements and giving the Palestinians their land and their rights.

As for CF? Anyone can have feelings of failure in their life and therefore sling mud on another guy's ethnicity. When the Palestinians have a state, CF will still be anti-Jewish...that is just him....

db

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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532882 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 4:03 PM
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I said PEACE! Not merely accept the failed discredited "two state solution" without agreement on peace. Here's a poll that tells the real story about Arab intolerance of the Jewish state of Israel and their determination and obsession and purpose to destroy Israel.



75% of Palestinians support suicide bombing, majority support terrorism even after statehood

By Lamia Lahoud, The Jerusalem Post, October 16 and 22, 2003.

SNIP

Seventy-five percent of Palestinians support the suicide bombing of the Maxim restaurant in Haifa in which 23 people were killed, according to a new opinion poll released by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) in Ramallah.

SNIP

Fifty-nine percent of Palestinians believe that Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad should continue their armed struggle against Israel even if Israel leaves all of the West Bank and Gaza, including East Jerusalem, and a Palestinian state is created, a new survey shows.

SNIP

Similarly, 80 percent of Palestinians say that, under those circumstances, the Palestinians should not give up the "right of return."

SNIP

Ninety-six percent of Israeli Jews say the people who piloted the planes on September 11 were terrorists, while 37 percent of Palestinians share that view.

SNIP

Slightly more than one in four - 26 percent - of Palestinians believe Israelis planned the 9-11 attacks.




Oh yeah, sure. These "Palestinian" Arabs really want peace with the Jewish state of Israel. What a joke. You stop with the disinfomation and the lies about the Arabs. And while you're at it, stop with the malicious slanders against Israel!

eolith.




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Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 4:13 PM
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75% of Palestinians support suicide bombing, majority support terrorism even after statehood

EO,

this is a very low grade war of independence. It is different in its nature from any other Arab/Israeli war. Israel can not win this war. In the end a state of Palestine will be founded. If Israel draws the boards fairly and quickly that is the best Israel can do.

The losses in this war are so low for the Palestinians that they will never back down in this war.

Meanwhile people like you are costing the Jewish community at large massive amounts of wealth to support the Israeli cause. The Jewish community does not have an endless supply of wealth. My family and I donate to and support the community before you get angry. I am just speaking very honestly to you.

The Arab view is that IF Israel runs out of funds and support, the Arabs will then wipe Israel off the map. They are sitting waiting to see if the pro-settlement movement will waste all the resources of Israel. You are walking us into their trap.

A reminder the Palestinians will never back down. They in fact dont have to. Their cause is just.

If Israel runs out of support it will be the fault of a few Jews who would not do the right thing by others regardless of what God decided Israel's fate should be.

IN A NUTSHELL:

Israel can defend herself. The Palestinians will not back down. If we dont do the right thing we will pay and endless price which we cant afford.

db

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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532890 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 4:22 PM
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So acting like Nazis is 'deterrence' now - Christ, that explains it then.

Israel's 'deterrence' policy, razing houses; collective punishments, etc, are Nazi procedures that the Israeli's think are good as they have had first hand experience of them.

HOW SICK IS THAT !!!!

Disgusted - again.

Regs, Shaggy




You Jew haters have reached a fevered pitch of hysteria in your Israel bashing now! You think that simply marking with ink that washes off the arms of terrorists being organized for legal interrogation relates in any way shape or form to the Nazi tatoo numbers branded on Jews in the death camps where literally millions of Jews were murdered? Are you serious? Are you out of your minds? You all are absolutely beyond the pale of any sane thought whatsoever.

eolith.



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Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 4:33 PM
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Hi Eolith,

'You Jew haters have reached a fevered pitch of hysteria in your Israel bashing now! You think that simply marking with ink that washes off the arms of terrorists being organized for legal interrogation relates in any way shape or form to the Nazi tatoo numbers branded on Jews in the death camps where literally millions of Jews were murdered? Are you serious? Are you out of your minds? You all are absolutely beyond the pale of any sane thought whatsoever.'

This rant of your goes to show your lack of comprehension with any deaths through terror that does not meet your 6m yardstick.

That stick, well ........

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532920 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 5:45 PM
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This rant of your goes to show your lack of comprehension with any deaths through terror that does not meet your 6m yardstick.

That stick, well ........

Regs, Shaggy




Six million Jewish dead is not a measurement. Six million Jewish dead is not a statistic either. Six million Jewish dead is a genocide.

All I'm saying is STOP calling Israelis "Nazis" and please stop making comparisons of the IDF with the German death camps that led to the mass murder of European Jews sixty years ago. Is that too much to ask?

eolith.

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Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 6:17 PM
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Hi Eolith,

This rant of your goes to show your lack of comprehension with any deaths through terror that does not meet your 6m yardstick.

That stick, well ........'


Six million Jewish dead is not a measurement. Six million Jewish dead is not a statistic either. Six million Jewish dead is a genocide.

All I'm saying is STOP calling Israelis "Nazis" and please stop making comparisons of the IDF with the German death camps that led to the mass murder of European Jews sixty years ago. Is that too much to ask?'



Let's get remember, you brought Nazi's in your post 532794, specifically:

'Since you live in Germany, perhaps you can help me understand something. Is ignorance or sheer hatred or a combination that leads Germans against the Jewish state of Israel in favor of Israel's enemies who are terrorists bent on destroying the Jewish homeland?

How is it that Germans, who themselves today have grandfathers and great grandfathers that committed the genocide of six million Jews in Europe, remain such ardent supporters of the ongoing Arab obsession and purpose to actually finish the mass murder of the Jewish people that the Nazis began?'



Sharon thinks there is a link between the IDF writting numbers on people with the Nazis; there certainly seems to be a similarity between the way the Palistinians are treated in their Bantasuns in comparison with Apartied, and Israeli torture techniques are similar to other 'vile' Arabs states.

Cripes - talk about taking the worst of the human condition, having it practiced on yourself and then going right out and doing the same to another 'sub-species'.

You come across as a hypocrite and a dangerous one at that.

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532949 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 7:02 PM
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No, you Shaggy are the dangerous one around here. You and all the Jew haters that join you in your vicious propaganda campaign against Israel and against Zionists.

I know you have a new playbook now. It's a playbook that says attack Israel, but then differentiate between Israel and the Jews. It's a playbook that says attack Zionists, but then differentiate between Zionism and Judaism. But you're not fooling me for a moment.

I learned a long time ago that antisemites must be confronted early. Right in the beginning when they stage these propaganda campaigns. I learned a long time ago that persecution against Jews has always begun with propaganda of the sort you and your ilk are peddling now. I want to stand up to it. I want to confront it. That's just how I am.

You might be able to encourage a lot of people to hate Jews by getting people to hate Israel, no matter how slanderous and how malicious the lies are that you tell. Just as when your predecessors urged people to hate Jews by getting people to hate Jewish bankers or Jewish industrialists or Jewish politicians. It's the same. Only the playbook has been updated. Israel is your new vehicle for promoting antisemitic propaganda.

I could tell lies like you. I too could make absurd comparisons between the inhumanity that goes on in the Arab world against mostly other Arabs (because most of the Jews have either been lynched or otherwise driven out in true ethnic cleansing) and the arrests that European police make against European criminals as if they are both equal. And then I too could make outrageous comparisons between the treatment of European prisoners and Arab prisoners.

Relating Israeli security force operations against Arab terrorists in refugee camps to the Nazi holocaust is like relating Charles Manson to Meter maid writing out parking tickets. Relating the IDF crackdowns on "Palestinian" terrorists to "ethnic cleansing" also absurd when the roughly three and a half million "Palestinians" remain in Judea, Samaria and Gaza with only the smallest fraction of them - nearly 5,000 Arab terrorists - having been killed. If this is ethnic cleansing, then it's the longest and most ineffective ethnic cleansing I've ever seen in my life. I bet the Bosnians wish they could have had ethnic cleansing like the one being presently meted out by the Israeli forces. It's ethnic cleansing without any actual ethnic cleansing at all.

I've made the point that it's the Arabs who are most interested in ethnic cleansing in the Middle East. And the Arabs mean to perpetuate an ethnic cleansing against the Jews in Israel at the hands of the Arabs themselves.

I brought up the genocide by the Nazis because the experience of the Jewish people in the modern era cannot be understood appropriately nor can the imperative and essential necessesity of the Jewish state of Israel be likewise understood appropriately without taking that tragic genocide into account. This is why I know what you are doing. Because of your total lack of concern or compassion for the plight of the Jewish people in Israel and in the Diaspora over the past century and a quarter and ridiculous double standard that you hold between Arab terrorists and Israeli security forces.

I have drawn you out. I have drawn out other antisemites. You and they have all revealed your true colors this day. I know what you are. I hope others too have seen it for themselves. It's a very clever routine you Jew haters have going here. It's not fooling me.

eolith.

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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532961 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 7:32 PM
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Hi Eolith,

'No, you Shaggy are the dangerous one around here. You and all the Jew haters that join you in your vicious propaganda campaign against Israel and against Zionists.'

I am not a Jew hater. You seem to be a Zionist-questioner hater. Rather a strange way to be imho.


'I know you have a new playbook now. It's a playbook that says attack Israel, but then differentiate between Israel and the Jews. It's a playbook that says attack Zionists, but then differentiate between Zionism and Judaism. But you're not fooling me for a moment.'

LOL

'I learned a long time ago that antisemites must be confronted early. Right in the beginning when they stage these propaganda campaigns. I learned a long time ago that persecution against Jews has always begun with propaganda of the sort you and your ilk are peddling now. I want to stand up to it. I want to confront it. That's just how I am.'

I am not an anti-semite. You should go back to school.


'You might be able to encourage a lot of people to hate Jews by getting people to hate Israel, no matter how slanderous and how malicious the lies are that you tell. Just as when your predecessors urged people to hate Jews by getting people to hate Jewish bankers or Jewish industrialists or Jewish politicians. It's the same. Only the playbook has been updated. Israel is your new vehicle for promoting antisemitic propaganda.'

Hmmmm...right <offers medication>


'I could tell lies like you. I too could make absurd comparisons between the inhumanity that goes on in the Arab world against mostly other Arabs (because most of the Jews have either been lynched or otherwise driven out in true ethnic cleansing) and the arrests that European police make against European criminals as if they are both equal. And then I too could make outrageous comparisons between the treatment of European prisoners and Arab prisoners.'

You seem disturbed, disturbed by those who question your judgements - if you were in a position of power, I would assume you to be a megalomaniac in the making - you have similar traits.

I am not an appoloist for the Arab states - I have no reason to be, and I deplore the horrors they commit on their peoples and other. You seem to give the green light to anything Israeli - you're a dangerous fellow.


'Relating Israeli security force operations against Arab terrorists in refugee camps to the Nazi holocaust is like relating Charles Manson to Meter maid writing out parking tickets. Relating the IDF crackdowns on "Palestinian" terrorists to "ethnic cleansing" also absurd when the roughly three and a half million "Palestinians" remain in Judea, Samaria and Gaza with only the smallest fraction of them - nearly 5,000 Arab terrorists - having been killed. If this is ethnic cleansing, then it's the longest and most ineffective ethnic cleansing I've ever seen in my life. I bet the Bosnians wish they could have had ethnic cleansing like the one being presently meted out by the Israeli forces. It's ethnic cleansing without any actual ethnic cleansing at all.'

If we are to follow your logic - 'what holocaust, there are 13m Jews in the world'. You logic is as flawed as your ideals. I also think you mix up ethnic cleansing and genocide - read up on it - read up on it in a non-Jew context if you can bring yourself too.

'I've made the point that it's the Arabs who are most interested in ethnic cleansing in the Middle East. And the Arabs mean to perpetuate an ethnic cleansing against the Jews in Israel at the hands of the Arabs themselves.'

I don't doubt that the Arabs you speak of do wish to rid the region of Jews, many in that group have said so, and their actions in the past pointed to it being true. This does not mean however that Israel has a similar wish or desire, and is shown in its actions to be true. For the Jewish state to remain Jewish, non-Jews cannot be the majority in Israel, how will this be accomplished in the coming years of 'transfer' (ethnic cleansing) is not to happen. What is your answer? If you have none, ask you posek and let me know his answer.


'I brought up the genocide by the Nazis because the experience of the Jewish people in the modern era cannot be understood appropriately nor can the imperative and essential necessesity of the Jewish state of Israel be likewise understood appropriately without taking that tragic genocide into account. This is why I know what you are doing. Because of your total lack of concern or compassion for the plight of the Jewish people in Israel and in the Diaspora over the past century and a quarter and ridiculous double standard that you hold between Arab terrorists and Israeli security forces.'

I can understand quite easily why the Jewish nation would like a state of their own. What I can't understand is after what they went through in their recent history, how they can be so cruel to another group in their care- I think it a disgrace and hypocracy of the worse order.


'I have drawn you out. I have drawn out other antisemites. You and they have all revealed your true colors this day. I know what you are. I hope others too have seen it for themselves. It's a very clever routine you Jew haters have going here. It's not fooling me.'

You have not drawn anything my friend, I am here, am have come to ask questions and look for answers - I have found a few, yet I still have two main question:

How is Israel to remain Jewish in nature in the coming years?

Where are the investigative reports into IDF actions which have resulted in the killing/maiming and displacement of the Palistinians in their care (they are the Occupying Power under international law)?


Regs, Shaggy

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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532964 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 7:46 PM
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Hi eolith,

'Relating Israeli security force operations against Arab terrorists in refugee camps to the Nazi holocaust is like relating Charles Manson to Meter maid writing out parking tickets.'


Perhaps you need to here it from someone else:

"On humanitarian grounds, the wall is unconscionable. It prevents Palestinian access to farmland, schools, hospitals and jobs. Picture your children having to wait at the wall twice a day for soldiers to show up and unlock the gate, allowing them to get to and from school. Picture the farmer who made a living from his olive trees, which are now inaccessible or have been felled to make way for construction. Imagine that you suddenly need to see a doctor, but have no permit to get through. Imagine that you simply want to visit your elderly mother, but the wall now comes between you. According to B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, when the wall is complete, some 38% of Palestinians will find their lives disrupted and their livelihoods discontinued.

The presence of the wall is not only cruel to Palestinians; it will ultimately harm Israeli security as well, as it intensifies the bitterness and hatred directed toward us. Is this the security that the wall will provide?

Unlike Palestinians who can hardly avoid it, most Israelis have never even seen the wall; it is built inside Palestinian territory, where only Israeli settlers (and the soldiers sent to protect them) now venture. If other Israelis saw it, I hope they would be shocked. In several places, the wall does not simply wend through Palestinian towns, it actually surrounds them entirely, penning the residents inside - their right to enter or leave left to the whim of young soldiers guarding the gate.

In these localities, civilian populations are now entirely encircled by a 30-foot-high, gray concrete battlement interrupted only by watchtowers from where soldiers train binoculars and automatic rifles on the residents below. Lights mounted on the wall shine down into the streets, making constant surveillance that much easier. As a Jew whose ancestors were confined to ghettoes during anti-Semitic periods of history, I find this horrifying. Will keeping 100,000 Palestinians penned in ghettoes and enclaves serve the security needs of Israel? Did forcing Jews into the ghettoes of Europe serve the security needs of those countries?"

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0407/S00077.htm


Regs, Shaggy

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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532981 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 8:27 PM
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There's an enormous difference between Jewish ghettoes in Europe and the security wall being built by Israel as a last resort and as a desperate effort to keep "Palestinian" terrorists out and away from Jewish Israeli civilians. European Jews never launched a campaign of terror in which suicide bombers murdered innocent European civilians and declared open war in an effort to destroy any European nation.

My understanding has been that the wall is linear. This implies that the wall does loops along the way. If there are no loops then how are the Palestinian "encircled" by the wall. Whatever the inconvenience and hardships brought on the Arabs by the wall it was the "Palestinians" themselves that made the wall necessary by their ongoing support of Arab terrorism against Jewish Israelis.

You continue to insist on relating and identifying the IDF and Zionists to Nazis and I find that intolerably insulting.

You are the one confusing genocide with ethnic cleansing and mixing both up and relating them to the actions of Israel with respect to the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Far more Jewish deaths have been caused by Arab murderers than Arab deaths caused Israeli security forces killing off terrorists. But in the former case, the deaths were unjustified and in the latter the deaths were justified.

But if one were to identify as genocide the fewer than 5,000 "Palestinian" terrorists dead at the hands of Israeli security, then every nation would be guilty of genocide and all killing in self defense would be always equal to murder. That makes no sense. You cannot call what is happening to the "Palestinians" genocide any more than you can call Israelis "Nazis". It's not the intentional wiping out of an entire race of people. The Arabs are in no danger of being wiped out by the Israelis or anybody else. Your rhetoric is maddening.

Ethnic cleansing can be genocide but it isn't genocide per se. The purpose of genocide is the mass murder of an entire race. The purpose of ethnic cleansing is to violently drive out a race from a given terrority using lethal force or fear. In the former case, there is no choice given to leave. In the latter case, leaving is violently induced by coersion. Israel is not guilty in either case.

I know of no Jewish party or platform or ideology that favors the violent expulsion of all Arabs from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. I certainly don't. But I do whole-heartedly favor the killing of all Arab terrorists who threaten the lives of innocent civilian Jewish Israelis. I don't those terrorists expelled at all. I want them all killed so they cannot come back. As for the Arab civilians, I want the Israelis to negotiate with Arab governments the resettlement of Arab peoples in Arab nations. I want Arabs to be encouraged to return to resettle in Arab nations. I want an humane relocation with compensation of the vast majority of Arabs living in Judea, Samaria and Gaza to Arab nations. Resettlement is not ethnic cleansing. The Moledet leader Binjamin Elon has come up with a brilliant idea to allow for the Israeli annexation of Judea and Samaria by conferring Jordanian citizenship on the "Palestinian" Arabs and giving them the status of foreign nationals living in Israel until a better arrangement could be made. In any event, keeping more than three million Arabs on Jewish land for the expressed purpose of destroying Israel is untenable and cannot be allowed to go indefinately without seriously threatening the Jewish state of Israel.

This is the only way to peace. Your answer is simply to foster and precipitate the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel at the hands of Arab terrorists and jihadists. That's despicable.

eolith.



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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532986 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 8:35 PM
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It was from Jerusalem ( where Al Aksa Mosque is presently located) that the Prophet ascended to be shown Heaven.

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532987 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 8:37 PM
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<Arab children are killed accidently ...>

Yeah, including while being used as human shields.

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532988 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 8:40 PM
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A 2-word response to this entire thread suffices:

emotionally unstable

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532990 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 8:45 PM
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<It's important for the reasonable people in this world to keep in mind that Zionism is a racist and nationalist ideology that should never be confounded with Judaism.>

Amin. It is due to the indefensibility of a hate-fueled, avarice-motivated form od ethnic cleansing that zionists resort to the absurdity of equating an imperialist movement with a religion, much as extremist Muslim movements try to justify their political and economic goals in their religion.

Israel and Al Queada: two sides of the same coin.


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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532992 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 8:48 PM
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<... the profound need for a Jewish homeland in the Jewish state of Israel?>

Fine. Put it on land that doesn't already belong to someone.


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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 532996 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 8:57 PM
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Israel is on Jewish land. Judea and Samaria is on Jewish land. In case this is too complicated for you, I'll spell it out. The Jewish state of Israel is already on land belonging to someone - the Jewish people.

Just because you choose to believe in slander and lies doesn't make any difference where the truth is concerned. Arabs cannot simply flood into Jewish land and claim it for themselves after it has already been granted to the Jewish people as a homeland in Balfour Declaration, the 1922 League of Nations resolution for British Mandate and finally conferred to Israel as spoil in the military conquest of the Six Day War in 1967, a war that the Arabs started. You don't get to change the rules just because you don't like the outcome.

Israel is here to stay. Greater Israel is coming next with the annexation of Judea and Samaria and Gaza. Get over it.

eolith.

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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533002 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 9:01 PM
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Hi eolith,

'There's an enormous difference between Jewish ghettoes in Europe and the security wall being built by Israel as a last resort and as a desperate effort to keep "Palestinian" terrorists out and away from Jewish Israeli civilians.'

Do you not consider Arab Israelis, citizens of Israel, with the same rights, privileges and protections as Jewish Israelis?


'European Jews never launched a campaign of terror in which suicide bombers murdered innocent European civilians and declared open war in an effort to destroy any European nation.'

Who said they did, and who are you to say that a walled Palestinian town, with gun towers etc is not similar to Jewish ghettos in WWII - perhaps you should live in one for a while, perhaps a single one just for you to get a feel for it.

'My understanding has been that the wall is linear. This implies that the wall does loops along the way. If there are no loops then how are the Palestinian "encircled" by the wall. Whatever the inconvenience and hardships brought on the Arabs by the wall it was the "Palestinians" themselves that made the wall necessary by their ongoing support of Arab terrorism against Jewish Israelis.''You continue to insist on relating and identifying the IDF and Zionists to Nazis and I find that intolerably insulting.'

And? I find you rather laughable with your ignorance, and your blind faith.

Lets looks at some comparisons:

1. Numbering;
2. Ghettos;
3. Collective punishment;
4. Ethnic cleansing;
5. Razing of housing.

Christ, you only need genocide, a frog march and a 6m figure to make it a mirror.

'You are the one confusing genocide with ethnic cleansing and mixing both up and relating them to the actions of Israel with respect to the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Far more Jewish deaths have been caused by Arab murderers than Arab deaths caused Israeli security forces killing off terrorists. But in the former case, the deaths were unjustified and in the latter the deaths were justified.'

I have researched the definitions of ethnic cleansing and genocide quite extensively and have found that the practice of 'transfer' is in fact ethnic cleansing. Also, we are not having some sort of sick numeric competition to decide whom is in the right and whom is not - ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing

'But if one were to identify as genocide the fewer than 5,000 "Palestinian" terrorists dead at the hands of Israeli security, then every nation would be guilty of genocide and all killing in self defence would be always equal to murder.'

You are the one whom is comparing it to genocide, not me. Take you WWII glasses off for a minute and smell the coffee.

'That makes no sense.'

I await your 'light bulb moment' with lessening hope.


'You cannot call what is happening to the "Palestinians" genocide any more than you can call Israelis "Nazis". It's not the intentional wiping out of an entire race of people. The Arabs are in no danger of being wiped out by the Israelis or anybody else. Your rhetoric is maddening.'

Again, you mentioned genocide, not I. Wiping, or trying to wipe out a race of people is genocide; moving under duress an ethnic group is ethnic cleansing - light on yet ??

'Ethnic cleansing can be genocide but it isn't genocide per se. The purpose of genocide is the mass murder of an entire race. The purpose of ethnic cleansing is to violently drive out a race from a given terrority using lethal force or fear. In the former case, there is no choice given to leave. In the latter case, leaving is violently induced by coersion. Israel is not guilty in either case.'

You're blind, do you know that? Your denying what is in front of you at the end of your finger tips via the internet.

I think you have a fixation that anything done in the name of Zionism is good and cannot have a bad semantic label attached to it as your faith in Zionism may start to crumble. You need to learn, and I'm here to teach; just as I'm here to learn and others are here to teach me - wake up and smell the horrors matey.

'I know of no Jewish party or platform or ideology that favors the violent expulsion of all Arabs from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. I certainly don't.'

Define violent.


'But I do whole-heartedly favor the killing of all Arab terrorists who threaten the lives of innocent civilian Jewish Israelis. I don't those terrorists expelled at all. I want them all killed so they cannot come back. As for the Arab civilians, I want the Israelis to negotiate with Arab governments the resettlement of Arab peoples in Arab nations. I want Arabs to be encouraged to return to resettle in Arab nations.'


So now your calling 'transfer', 'resettlement' now - and what of those who do not wish to go, what then – what then when the Jewish nature of Israel is threatened??

'I want an humane relocation with compensation of the vast majority of Arabs living in Judea, Samaria and Gaza to Arab nations.'

You want to ethnically cleans those areas of Arabs. Period.


'Resettlement is not ethnic cleansing.'

Yes it is if it is done under duress - Go Google.


'The Moledet leader Binjamin Elon has come up with a brilliant idea to allow for the Israeli annexation of Judea and Samaria by conferring Jordanian citizenship on the "Palestinian" Arabs and giving them the status of foreign nationals living in Israel until a better arrangement could be made.'

Binjamin Elon the nutcase??:


"Israeli expulsion idea gains steam
The Moledet party's media blitz for the mass expulsion of Palestinians is gaining momentum.

JERUSALEM - Spurred on by public despair, Israeli advocates of a mass expulsion of Palestinians are gaining strength and legitimacy as the toll of Palestinian attacks inside Israel continues to rise.

Tourism Minister Benny Elon of the far-right Moledet party this week launched a campaign advocating "transfer," a euphemism for expulsion, which he says can also connote an agreed relocation of Palestinians.


In addition to Mr. Elon's push for transfer in a series of interviews on Israel's television channels and in major newspapers, Moledet has put up billboards in Tel Aviv saying that "Only transfer will bring peace."

The idea of a removal of Arabs - voluntary or otherwise - is almost as old as Zionism itself, but today it is taking on fresh legitimacy with the collapse of the Oslo peace process and the demise of the implicit bargain of land and eventual Palestinian statehood for peace.

Elon says that under conditions of war, Israel has the right to bring upon the Palestinians "another nakba," or catastrophe, similar to 1948, when an estimated 700,000 of them were expelled or fled during the Arab-Israeli war.

"There is great disappointment and confusion. People are saying we have had enough, we have seen wars and we have seen the Oslo agreement with all of its bloodshed," says Elon. "I want to remind them of this platform and to remove the taboo from public discussion. It is intolerable that the Arabs should think that, every time, they can drain our blood and then we will negotiate with them."

<snip>

But significantly, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has not repudiated the idea of a mass expulsion. Sharon, says his spokesman, would like to expel the Palestinians, but does not believe this can be carried out under the present conditions.

"There is a difference between wishful thinking and realpolitik," explains Sharon's spokesman, Ra'anan Gissin. "If the Palestinians would have a change of heart and move elsewhere, OK, but Sharon realizes transfer cannot be done because of the stance of the Israeli public. What Elon is saying is not something that today seems possible."

Mr. Sharon appeared to endorse mass expulsions of Palestinians in October. In a Knesset speech, he lauded assassinated Tourism Minister Rehavam "Gandhi" Zeevi of Moledet, whose career was based on the transfer idea, as a true heir of Zionist founding fathers and vowed: "Gandhi, we will be victorious."

<snip>

Tom Segev, a left-wing commentator, says "the idea of transfer is very embedded in original Zionist ideology and was very much on the minds of some of the fathers of modern Israel, such as David Ben-Gurion. The idea has been very central, but usually it was not conceived of as violent."

<snip>'


http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0206/p05s01-wome.html


Your and his idea is sick, it is ethnic cleansing. Period.


'In any event, keeping more than three million Arabs on Jewish land for the expressed purpose of destroying Israel is untenable and cannot be allowed to go indefinately without seriously threatening the Jewish state of Israel.'

And what is your proposal, forced transfer (ethnic cleansing) if the Palestinians there do not agree? Is this right? Whom is going to carry out these orders? Can you sleep at night?

'This is the only way to peace. Your answer is simply to foster and precipitate the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel at the hands of Arab terrorists and jihadists. That's despicable.'

Your 'peace' initiative will bring about the destruction of the state of Israel just as surely as if you had led the armies of the Arabs into Israel yourself - your ideas and your fanaticism is dangerous and you are a danger to Israel and the world at large.

Hopefully God will see fit to enlighten you, if not in this world, then in the next.

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533003 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 9:05 PM
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<STOP calling Israelis "Nazis" and please stop making comparisons of the IDF with the German death camps that led to the mass murder of European Jews sixty years ago. Is that too much to ask?>

Stop pursuing an ethnic cleansing policy based on a theory of ethnic/religious superiority (yes, being "chosen" qualifies) and herding people into walled concentration camps, then looting the property of your victims. Is that too much to ask?

The truth is its own defense.

zionism is a form of hate.


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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533005 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 9:10 PM
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<I know you have a new playbook now. It's a playbook that says attack Israel, but then differentiate between Israel and the Jews. It's a playbook that says attack Zionists, but then differentiate between Zionism and Judaism. But you're not fooling me for a moment.....

I have drawn you out. I have drawn out other antisemites. You and they have all revealed your true colors this day. I know what you are. I hope others too have seen it for themselves. It's a very clever routine you Jew haters have going here. It's not fooling me.
>

Textbook paranoia


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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533009 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 9:15 PM
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Hi eolith,

'Just because you choose to believe in slander and lies doesn't make any difference where the truth is concerned. Arabs cannot simply flood into Jewish land and claim it for themselves after it has already been granted to the Jewish people as a homeland in Balfour Declaration, the 1922 League of Nations resolution for British Mandate and finally conferred to Israel as spoil in the military conquest of the Six Day War in 1967, a war that the Arabs started.'


You seriously need to chew on this map: http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/1947+UN+Partition+Plan.htm


See the bits in orange, labelled 'Arab state' - Got that? Got a lump in your throat?

Did you also notice that that website is the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Need someone to perform the Heimlich manoeuvre on you, or would a German sounding manoeuvre be too disgusting for you to contemplate?

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533011 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 9:17 PM
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<Judea and Samaria is on Jewish land.>

Uh, is that why it took an invasion for them to get there? There were people there when they arrived, right?

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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533025 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 9:57 PM
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You are the most arrogant antisemite that I've come across on this board and that's really saying something. But you are even more ignorant. You are in dire need of a little history instruction.

See if you can follow the following:



Why did the Arabs reject the UN plan?

Arab rejection of partition in 1947 reflected a crisis of leadership in a community whose identity as Palestinians was not yet fully crystallized. Indeed, at the start of the British mandate, the Arabs of Palestine were profoundly ambivalent about the appropriate focus of their political loyalties--should they identify with the overall Arab nation, consider themselves Southern Syrians, or call themselves Palestinians in conformity to boundaries artificially drawn by imperial powers?

The responsibility for resisting British rule and confronting an influx of Jewish immigrants fell upon a Palestinian political elite drawn from traditional urban notable families. The tensions between the two foremost families--the Husaynis and Nashishibis--came to a head during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. This uprising did yield British restrictions on Jewish immigration and land purchase (Read up, Shaggy, on the British White Paper of 1939), but not a secure route to Palestinian self-determination. As noted by Palestinian scholar Rashid Khalidi:

The Palestine Arab Revolt...was in many ways the decisive episode in the efforts of the Palestinian Arabs to resist the British mandate's support for a Jewish National home in Palestine....[It] has been glorified in much Palestinian historiography but...ultimately the revolt must be judged a failure....[D]uring this episode [the Palestinians'] already divided leadership was fragmented further....These divisions contributed to the failure of the Palestinians to capitalize on [their] potential advantages.

As the partition vote in the UN approached, it became clear little hope existed for a political solution to a problem that transcended politics: the Arabs' unwillingness to accept a Jewish state in Palestine and the refusal of the Zionists to settle for anything less. The implacability of the Arabs was evident when Jewish Agency representatives David Horowitz and Abba Eban made a last-ditch effort to reach a compromise in a meeting with Arab League Secretary-General Azzam Pasha on September 16, 1947. Pasha told them bluntly:

The Arab world is not in a compromising mood. It's likely, Mr. Horowitz, that your plan is rational and logical, but the fate of nations is not decided by rational logic. Nations never concede; they fight. You won't get anything by peaceful means or compromise. You can, perhaps, get something, but only by the force of your arms. We shall try to defeat you. I am not sure we'll succeed, but we'll try. We were able to drive out the Crusaders, but on the other hand we lost Spain and Persia. It may be that we shall lose Palestine. But it's too late to talk of peaceful solutions.

The categorical rejection of partition by the Arab Higher Committee led by Haj Amin al-Huseini as well as the newly created Arab League represented an all-or-nothing attitude that was ultimately counterproductive. It resulted in the utter defeat of Palestinian dreams for independence, for at least half a century.

The Arabs not only rejected partition, but attacked Israel from all sides. The armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq invaded Israel on May 15, 1947, the day after Israel's Independence Day, with the clear intention of killing the infant state in its cradle.

On May 15, 1947 Azzam Pasha called for "jihad", saying:

This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades".


Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, agreed with Pasha:

I declare a holy war, my muslim brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!

In a letter to the United Nations, the Transjordanian Prime Minister was quoted:

Our position is clear, and has been proclaimed on every occasion. It is never to allow the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine and to exclude partition. And our object is to cooperate with the other Arab States in her deliverance. Once this aim is attained, the determination of her future status is the right and concern of her own people. Theirs alone is the last word. We have no other object or aim in view.

Is that clear enough for you, Shaggy? The Arabs rejected Partition. The Arabs gambled in a high stakes for all the land of Israel and lost. Now you Jew haters want Israel to just hand it over and for what? Peace? No, just to make easier to facilitate the annihilation of Israel. No, thanks.

eolith.


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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533031 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:11 PM
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Here Shaggy, take it from somebody else, an Arab-American, on the subject:


As the most visible Arab-American critic of Yasser Arafat and the phony "Palestinian" agenda, I get a lot of hate mail.

I've even received more than my share of death threats.

Most of those who attack me – at least those who bother to get beyond the four-letter words and insults – say I just don't understand or have sympathy for these poor Arabs who were displaced, chased out of their homes and turned into refugees by the Israelis.

Let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land.

When Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed. He didn't see any people. He referred to it as a vast wasteland. The land we now know as Israel was practically deserted.

By the beginning of the 20th century, that began to change. Jews from all over the world began to return to their ancestral homeland – the Promised Land Moses and Joshua had conquered millennia earlier, Christians and Jews believe, on the direct orders of God.

That's not to say there wasn't always a strong Jewish presence in the land – particularly in and around Jerusalem. In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. The source for that statistic? A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx. Yes, that Karl Marx.

A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal. The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

"The number of Jews has greatly risen in the last few decades, in spite of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed property," the book states.

Even though the Jews were persecuted, still they came to Jerusalem and represented the overwhelming majority of the population as early as 1906. And even though Muslims today claim Jerusalem as the third holiest site in Islam, when the city was under Islamic rule, they had little interest in it.

As the Jews came, drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, something interesting began to happen. Arabs followed. I don't blame them. They had good reason to come. They came for jobs. They came for prosperity. They came for freedom. And they came in large numbers.

Winston Churchill observed in 1939: "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

Then came 1948 and the great partition. The United Nations proposed the creation of two states in the region – one Jewish, one Arab. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and declared war.

Arab leaders urged Arabs to leave the area so they would not be caught in the crossfire. They could return to their homes, they were told, after Israel was crushed and the Jews destroyed. It didn't work out that way. By most counts, several hundred thousand Arabs were displaced by this war – not by Israeli aggression, not by some Jewish real-estate grab, not by Israeli expansionism.

In fact, there are many historical records showing the Jews urged the Arabs to stay and live with them in peace. But, tragically, they chose to leave.

Fifty-four years later, the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of those refugees are all-too-often still living in refugee camps – not because of Israeli intransigence, but because they are misused as a political tool of the Arab powers.

Those poor unfortunates could be settled in a week by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass, but they are kept as virtual prisoners, filled with misplaced hatred for Jews and armed as suicide martyrs by the Arab power brokers.

This is the modern history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes. When there were title deeds to be purchased, they bought them at inflated prices. When there were not, they worked the land so they could have a place to live without the persecution they faced throughout the world.

It's a great big lie that the Israelis displaced anyone – one of a series of lies and myths that have the world on the verge of committing yet another great injustice to the Jews.


Amen.



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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533033 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:16 PM
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Hi eolith,

You said: "Just because you choose to believe in slander and lies doesn't make any difference where the truth is concerned. Arabs cannot simply flood into Jewish land and claim it for themselves after it has already been granted to the Jewish people as a homeland in Balfour Declaration, the 1922 League of Nations resolution for British Mandate and finally conferred to Israel as spoil in the military conquest of the Six Day War in 1967, a war that the Arabs started."


I said: "You seriously need to chew on this map: http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/1947+UN+Partition+Plan.htm


See the bits in orange, labelled 'Arab state"


You seem not to have swallowed what I gave, perhaps the text of what was on that map link needs to be spoon fed to you - open wide:

'1947 UN Partition Plan

In 1947, Great Britain relinquished to the UN the power to make decisions relating to the status of the Land of Israel. The General Assembly appointed a special committee that collected evidence and decided unanimously that Israel should be granted independence. Most of the committee members favored partitioning the land into two states, a Jewish state and an Arab state, with Jerusalem under international supervision. On November 29, 1947, the UN General Assembly accepted the partition resolution, 33 to 13.'


Got that?

The body (UN) that gave ligitimacy to the state of Israel also spelled out lands for the Palistinians.

Further, fancy reading the The Mandate for Palestine, July 24, 1922 - notice that word, 'Palistine' - WOW, a full 40 years before you'll admit was ever mentioned - a myth - you jest.

Perhaps you need to chew on the Armistice lines as well: http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/1949-1967+Armistice+Lines.htm


Regs, Shaggy

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Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533039 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:34 PM
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Are you even paying attention? It matters not whether the UN offered Partition to the "Palestinian" Arabs BECAUSE those Arabs REJECTED PARTITION! Got it? THE ARABS FORFEITED ANY CLAIM TO JUDEA AND SAMARIA!

WHEN THE ARABS ATTACKED ISRAEL ON MAY 15 1948! Palestinian Arabs had already abandoned Partition in favor of war against the Jewish state of Israel in a high-risk all-or-nothing gamble to take by force all the land west of the Jordan River and destroy Israel. Those same Arabs lost that gamble and more than 700,000 "Palestinian refugees" were displaced by their own hatred of Israel. These Arabs had moved out by their own free will, anticipating the annihilation of the Jewish state of Israel.

Why is this so complicated for you? Can't you keep up?

eolith.



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Author: mishedlo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533040 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:36 PM
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Does that about cover it?

Yes - for BOTH sides

Mish


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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533041 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:38 PM
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<These Arabs had moved out by their own free will...>

Well, yeah, except for those at Deir Yassin and other locations, who were murdered. The rest were free to run for their lives. And by the way, Begin himself said Deir Yassin was necessary to provide that "free will" you mentioned.

zionism is a form of murder

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533043 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:38 PM
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A 2-word response to this entire thread suffices:

emotionally unstable


Buff,

like you are any better?

db

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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533045 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:41 PM
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Hi eolith,

'Are you even paying attention? It matters not whether the UN offered Partition to the "Palestinian" Arabs BECAUSE those Arabs REJECTED PARTITION! Got it? THE ARABS FORFEITED ANY CLAIM TO JUDEA AND SAMARIA!

WHEN THE ARABS ATTACKED ISRAEL ON MAY 15 1948! Palestinian Arabs had already abandoned Partition in favor of war against the Jewish state of Israel in a high-risk all-or-nothing gamble to take by force all the land west of the Jordan River and destroy Israel. Those same Arabs lost that gamble and more than 700,000 "Palestinian refugees" were displaced by their own hatred of Israel. These Arabs had moved out by their own free will, anticipating the annihilation of the Jewish state of Israel.

Why is this so complicated for you? Can't you keep up?'



I must say, this is like talking to a rather thick brick wall this conversing with you, but hey, I may get through in the end.....

Israel declared independence on 14th May 1948.

Ben Gurion and his cabinet had to make a choice; accept a ceasefire or declare an independent Israeli state with the consequences of which was war.

He chose war - he declared independence and in doing so war.

Ben Gurion has said that if offered all the Jews in Germany to be evacuated to the UK and survive, or half evacuated to Zion and the other half left to die; he chose death for the half left for the chance of an Israeli state.

Within this context, the man was a nutter.

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533046 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:42 PM
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Israel and Al Queada: two sides of the same coin.



really? Or are you as a Muslim just justifying al-Quaida?

How about a true and lasting peace? Anyone?

BTW all the Muslims I know truly believe Israel has a right to exist...but they dont want any expansion of Israel. And they strongly want a justice for the Palestinians.

And most American Jews feel the same way.

db

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533047 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:43 PM
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Textbook paranoia


Buff,

You maybe seeing a shrink, but stop playing one...OKAY?

db

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Author: mishedlo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533048 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:44 PM
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Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism?

One more thought....
OF COURSE!

Is Jewish terrorism better than anyone else's?
If so why?

I opposed to all terrorism.
On the basis of your original post you seem to think Jewish terrorism is OK.

Of course many palestinians think the same thing in reverse.

This will of course continue as long as Jews think they are better than anyone else and also as long as some Moslems think all Jews should be killed.

Well IMO BOTH sides are equally wrong and terorism=terrorism regardless of who does it. I 100% disagree with the notion that you imply that Jewish terorism is OK.

BullSweet!
Mish


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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533050 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:45 PM
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Hi TRK,

'BTW all the Muslims I know truly believe Israel has a right to exist...but they dont want any expansion of Israel. And they strongly want a justice for the Palestinians.

And most American Jews feel the same way.'




I agree, and when I come across a nutter like eolith, I can understand how the situation on the ground in Israel and the area, has come to pass.

There are fanatics in the world who need to know or be put in their place.

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533052 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:46 PM
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Stop pursuing an ethnic cleansing policy based on a theory of ethnic/religious superiority (yes, being "chosen" qualifies) and herding people into walled concentration camps, then looting the property of your victims. Is that too much to ask?

The truth is its own defense.

zionism is a form of hate.

Buff,

this whole thing you are saying is a line of S. I dont even see it as anti-zionism. I see it as fearmongering done amongst the Muslims for their own propaganda. It is a line of S that you believe. Oh well.

db

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533055 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:50 PM
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Here's the truth from a couple of well-known "Jew Haters":

David Ben Gurion in Rebirth and Destiny of Israel:

"Until the British left (May 15, 1948) no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah...captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberia, and Haifa, Jaffa, and Safad.... So on the day of destiny, that part of Palestine where the Haganah could operate was almost clear of Arabs."

While the wanton slaughter at Deir Yassin was in fact relatively minor in the over-all casualty figures, Irgun soundtrucks drove through Palestinians towns warning that those who stayed would meet the same fate.

Menachem Begin in the The Revolt:

"Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of 'Irgun butchery' were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrolled stampede. Of the almost 800,000 who lived on the present territory of the State of Israel, only some 165,000 are still there. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated."

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533058 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:55 PM
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<'BTW all the Muslims I know truly believe Israel has a right to exist...but they dont want any expansion of Israel. And they strongly want a justice for the Palestinians.

And most American Jews feel the same way.'



I agree, and when I come across a nutter like eolith, I can understand how the situation on the ground in Israel and the area, has come to pass.

There are fanatics in the world who need to know or be put in their place.

Regs, Shaggy>

On the money Shaggy. And no matter how many times we Muslims say that to avoid genocide the putrid criminal organization must be left to exist within its original borders if it ever stops killing and stealing, the zionists keep coming back to say that we want all Jews dead. They cannot defend their criminal enterprise without multiple straw men.

They won't relent, and in the end they'll bring on their own destruction with their all-or-nothing greedy obsession.


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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533060 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 10:56 PM
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Is that clear enough for you, Shaggy? The Arabs rejected Partition. The Arabs gambled in a high stakes for all the land of Israel and lost. Now you Jew haters want Israel to just hand it over and for what? Peace? No, just to make easier to facilitate the annihilation of Israel. No, thanks.

eolith.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EO,

go back in this thread and read my post on how I see this war of independence. It is a ways back.

You are walking into a resources trap that the Muslims wish you to.

It is only justice that the Palestinians have a homeland. They are infact in a no lose position. There will be no peace this time till they have a state.

And after that they are going to go after Jordan.

Israel for now can take care of herself...but step by step as your point of view is being argued, by only a few Jews, we are losing resources and support. Fortunately even Sharon is not standing up for your point of view any more. It is such a limited point of view we could create WW III out of it. With all your facts and truths about prior Arab/Israeli wars...you simply are arguing the wrong side of the street this time. Justice is a state of Palestine. Get over it and stop wasting my resources that I invest in the Jewish state.

Keep it up and we will have nothing. How about cutting the S and doing the right thing by the Palestinians? Where is your heart? Is it not in Exodus? If it is not do the rest of us a favor and stop celebrating Passover.

db

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533068 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 11:09 PM
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Mish,

Many acts by Jews in Israel against Palestinians end up with the Jewish Israeli going on trial. Basically the state of Israel see the acts as criminal.

The Palestinians are fighting a "just" war of independence. But historically before this war, the Arab/Israeli conflict was very different philosophically. All of EO's philosophical arguments I could totally buy into, but not in this case. Plus the Palestinians simply wont and dont have to back down. This is a low grade war they will win without winning a single battle.

It is also a low grade war on the Israeli side. Sharon is moving in the right direction. In my book it has taken him too long.

About the partition. As Sharon says it is practical and temporary. Over a week ago the Israeli courts gave orders to not harm the Palestinians with the wall as much as the previous plans were doing. This court order will be a cascade of changes in the wall to stop harmings "as much" the Palestinians.

The basic difficulty has been that Israeli politics has been slow to recognize that the Palestinians can fight this low grade war forever. That no matter what happens the Palestinians will win.

Like I keep saying, for now Israel without a doubt can defend herself after a Palestinian state is founded. But if the settlement movement does not stop its absolute BS waste of Jewish resources and goodwill towards the Jewish communities...then Israel will be wiped out.

The Arab community has this concept in its strategic planning. Israel is weakening herself and they know it.

Most Jews do not support what was going on. As I said fortunately finally Sharon is coming around. And BTW so is Netanywho sp? who is in Sharon's cabinet. This is particularly important. If the two men were not on the same page Israel would be fately split.

EO get over yourself and do the right thing.

db

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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533071 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 11:14 PM
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Hi Eolith,

'WHO ARE THE PALESTINIANS?
WHAT & WHERE is PALESTINE?


There is a preliminary historical fact that must be established now. There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world!'



Just thought I'd mention to you that your 'brudda'-in-arms, Joseph Farah, has stated that the Romans where the first to mention Palestine when they knocked off a load of Jews in the ares, at around 70AD.

The term comes from Philistine, and was meant as an insult to the Jewish people as it came from a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier.

So, what it is, defend your friend, or cast him out in the the never-never as an anti-Semite pig?

Your choice, it will not bother me either way.

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533072 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/11/2004 11:14 PM
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I agree, and when I come across a nutter like eolith, I can understand how the situation on the ground in Israel and the area, has come to pass.

There are fanatics in the world who need to know or be put in their place.

Regs, Shaggy

Shaggy,

EO is right about any other Arab/Israeli conflicts. His history is close enough to being right. History always get distorted.

But this is a just war that the Palestinians are fighting regardless of how they fight it. Remember the S the Americans pulled for their "freedom"....the Boston Tea Party? anyone? My history books say we used to pour hot water down tory's throats till they died.

EO you need to differentiate this war with Palestine from all prior wars against Israel. Your arguments apply to past wars only.

...and if you see such a war on the horizon again I'd be with you 100%.......

db

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533141 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:24 AM
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You Jew haters have reached a fevered pitch of hysteria in your Israel bashing now! You think that simply marking with ink that washes off the arms of terrorists being organized for legal interrogation relates in any way shape or form to the Nazi tatoo numbers branded on Jews in the death camps where literally millions of Jews were murdered? Are you serious? Are you out of your minds? You all are absolutely beyond the pale of any sane thought whatsoever.


This practice was only stopped when Nazi concentration camp survivors in the Knesset read about it and went BALLISTIC.
Are they Jew-haters too, making things up to discredit Israel?


CF


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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533143 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:31 AM
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All I'm saying is STOP calling Israelis "Nazis" and please stop making comparisons of the IDF with the German death camps that led to the mass murder of European Jews sixty years ago. Is that too much to ask?


I personally will stop calling the Israelis proto-Nazis when they cease to behave like proto-Nazis.
It is to the eternal shame of the State of Israel that they are slowly turning into the very people who have most abused the Jewish people.
They have their own untermenschen, and they are behaving despicably and cruelly towards them.
Israel is a stain on the meory of the Holocaust and the 6 million innocents who died during those terribel years.


CF



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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533144 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:34 AM
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I learned a long time ago that antisemites must be confronted early.


The biggest enemy of Jews the world over is the Zionist State of Israel, not folk who attack its vicious policies.
Open your eyes and see the truth.



CF

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533147 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:40 AM
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a brilliant idea to allow for the Israeli annexation of Judea and Samaria


Zionists are full of brilliant ideas for thieving territory that doesn't belong to them.
Terrible atrocities are being committed by Israel in the name of land theft.
The Zionist dream of a Greater Israel is one of the biggest threats to world peace.



CF

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533148 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:41 AM
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The biggest enemy of Jews the world over is the Zionist State of Israel, not folk who attack its vicious policies.
Open your eyes and see the truth.

CF

you are in rare form tonight.....there is seriously something wrong there....

....some people have large feelings of failure.....

Click you are off the beaten track.....even the most staunch critics of Israel dont truly need to get into this smearing campaign like you do.

db

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533150 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:43 AM
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Arab children are killed accidently


Including the ones who are shot for daring to frighten Israeli troops hiding in their tanks?


CF

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533151 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:45 AM
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the profound need for a Jewish homeland in the Jewish state of Israel


They were given one by the UN.
It wasn't enough for them.
They decided to take more, and have continued to do so ever since.


CF

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533152 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:45 AM
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Including the ones who are shot for daring to frighten Israeli troops hiding in their tanks?


CF

Click,

the British in Southern Iraq probably killed more children than Israel has killed Palestinian children in the last three years.

This war of independence is truly a low grade war.

You could relax and start trying to talk like a gent.

db

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533153 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:48 AM
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They were given one by the UN.
It wasn't enough for them.
They decided to take more, and have continued to do so ever since.


CF

Earth to Click....even Sharon is planning a pull out from Gaza and the West Bank.

Come on you old armchair worrier....lol....it is not like your emotions are genuine....unless you need another cigarette.....

...jones'n?.....

db

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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533156 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:13 AM
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Come on you old armchair worrier....lol....it is not like your emotions are genuine....unless you need another cigarette.....

...jones'n?.....

db


db,

you're a nice guy, basically. I'm serious. It took me some time to get it. Someone like eolith had to come by to make me realize it.

Abe

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533158 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:21 AM
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Israel is on Jewish land. Judea and Samaria is on Jewish land


I know.
A Jewish writer three thousand years ago claimed that God gave it to them
The Jews have an even more distant claim to the real estate of Israel than the Manhattan Indians to that island near the Hudson River.


CF

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533159 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:25 AM
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Is that clear enough for you, Shaggy?


When you use clips from Zionist web sites, eolith, kindly quote them to the board so that we can see them for what they are.

Much of your post was blatant propaganda, and worthless as such.

CF

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533160 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:27 AM
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It's a great big lie that the Israelis displaced anyone – one of a series of lies and myths that have the world on the verge of committing yet another great injustice to the Jews.
.......

Amen.



Two Zionists reassuring each other with their propaganda.


CF





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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533162 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:35 AM
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even Sharon is planning a pull out from Gaza and the West Bank.


He's pulling out of Gaza only because it was the land grab too far, impossible to hold on to militarily without crippling the Israeli economy.
As for pulling out of the West Bank, this is restricted to a tiny handful of isolated settlements impossible to defend.
Sharon intends to keep all that juicy stolen real estate and its valuable water for the State of Greater Israel.


CF


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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533183 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 6:31 AM
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HI Abe,

'you're a nice guy, basically. I'm serious. It took me some time to get it. Someone like eolith had to come by to make me realize it.'

I echo that, I thought eolith was a troll at first, but he has been around for a while, and I believe he believes his garbage - made me think about the souls I have come head to head with and under eoliths shadow, they seem as meek in their ideology as myself.

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533184 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 6:40 AM
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I thought eolith was a troll at first

He clearly isn't - the intensity of his emotional involvement with Israel is far greater than that of, say, Mitamuna.
Sadly, I believe the intensity of this emotional involvement renders him incapable of seeing the State of Israel as it truly is.
For him the theft of vast tracts of land by Israel is simply claiming back what is rightly the Jews' anyway (after all, didn't God tell a Jewish writer it was theirs over three thousand years ago?)
The casual murder of Palestinian innocents (lobbing tank shells into a peaceful procession in Gaza, for example) is "fighting back against terror".
For eolith Israel can do no wrong.
He sees no evil, hears no evil, speaks no evil.
Anyone who does these things is by simple definition an antisemite, to be scorned and ignored.
He is beyond argument or persuasion.


CF


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Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533185 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 6:44 AM
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Hi CF,

'I thought eolith was a troll at first

He clearly isn't - the intensity of his emotional involvement with Israel is far greater than that of, say, Mitamuna.
Sadly, I believe the intensity of this emotional involvement renders him incapable of seeing the State of Israel as it truly is.
For him the theft of vast tracts of land by Israel is simply claiming back what is rightly the Jews' anyway (after all, didn't God tell a Jewish writer it was theirs over three thousand years ago?)
The casual murder of Palestinian innocents (lobbing tank shells into a peaceful procession in Gaza, for example) is "fighting back against terror".
For eolith Israel can do no wrong.
He sees no evil, hears no evil, speaks no evil.'


I have a figurene of three monkey's in those posses ;-)

'Anyone who does these things is by simple definition an antisemite, to be scorned and ignored.'

Alas, I must try to change his dark heart.

'He is beyond argument or persuasion.

We'll see.

Regs, Shaggy

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533226 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 10:09 AM
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Sharon intends to keep all that juicy stolen real estate and its valuable water for the State of Greater Israel.
CF

Click,

that is in the Golan Heights. get over yourself....

db

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533291 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 12:22 PM
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Sharon intends to keep all that juicy stolen real estate and its valuable water for the State of Greater Israel.
CF
.........

Click,

that is in the Golan Heights. get over yourself....



You obviously know nothing of the West Bank aquifers, db.
The Israelis want these because they've contaminated their own legitimate aquifers.
And, of course, the water reserves of the Golan are a prime reason why they'll never give up that bit of stolen real estate too.


CF



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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533378 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:28 PM
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He is beyond argument or persuasion.


CF


so are you!!

db

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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533380 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:31 PM
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He is beyond argument or persuasion.

Person I'd Most Like to Meet: Jacob

No joke

Abe



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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533410 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 2:57 PM
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Israel is on Jewish land. Judea and Samaria is on Jewish land. In case this is too complicated for you, I'll spell it out. The Jewish state of Israel is already on land belonging to someone - the Jewish people.

You are a silly and ignorant person. There's no such thing as "Jewish" land or "Muslim" land. Land belongs to people, not religions.


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Author: skybluewater Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533416 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:03 PM
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Israel is here to stay. Greater Israel is coming next with the annexation of Judea and Samaria and Gaza. Get over it.

Jawohl.

Erk

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533425 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:14 PM
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Let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land.

That is a blatant, bordering on ridiculous, falsehood. That Israel confiscated the land of Palestinian refugees and even land belonging to Palestinians who remained in Israel (so-called "present absentees") is not in dispute.

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Author: ghdude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533426 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:15 PM
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You are a silly and ignorant person. There's no such thing as "Jewish" land or "Muslim" land. Land belongs to people, not religions.

Wrong. David and I decided the other day. Baja California is now Jewish land. Look it up. We're loading up the truck and moving the Western Wall to Cabo!

Tel Aviv is under new management.

Derek

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Author: ghdude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533427 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:16 PM
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That is a blatant, bordering on ridiculous, falsehood. That Israel confiscated the land of Palestinian refugees and even land belonging to Palestinians who remained in Israel (so-called "present absentees") is not in dispute.

Be nice. I was taught that too remember?

Derek

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Author: davidMN Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533440 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:37 PM
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Wrong. David and I decided the other day. Baja California is now Jewish land. Look it up. We're loading up the truck and moving the Western Wall to Cabo!

Tel Aviv is under new management.
>>
The desert's blooming again, baby.

Tel Aviv's babes are gonna love Baja beaches. (link would be here, but not appropriate:)

And all those high-tech industries will benefit from the proximity to Silicon Valley and San Diego.

Time to start seriously proposing this in the proper quarters (wink wink).

David

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Author: ghdude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533446 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:41 PM
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Time to start seriously proposing this in the proper quarters (wink wink).

I'll second your motion at the next "meeting".

Derek

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533447 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 3:42 PM
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I'll second your motion at the next "meeting".

Derek

I'm going to try and make the meeting.

db

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533509 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 5:19 PM
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Let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land.
.....

That is a blatant, bordering on ridiculous, falsehood


Pure Zionist propaganda, Felix.

Goebbels was the father of modern propaganda in a totalitarian state (a term that he coined), in which he made use of every available means. The propaganda he spread was remarkably replete with defamation, libels, and lies; he was convinced that people would believe the lies if only they were repeated often enough, and the bigger the lie, the better chance it had of being believed

http://www.history-of-the-holocaust.org/LIBARC/LEXICON/LexEntry/Goebbels.html

CF

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533511 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 5:20 PM
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Baja California is now Jewish land.


Watch out everyone - they'll soon be wanting non-Baja California.


CF

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Author: c1ickfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533513 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 5:21 PM
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Be nice. I was taught that too remember?

Derek



Be nice. Be truthful.


CF



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Author: davidMN Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533528 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 6:01 PM
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Watch out everyone - they'll soon be wanting non-Baja California.
>>
They'll have to battle the Mexicans for it.

And wait, don't Jews already control Hollywood? (*sarcasm*)

David

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Author: ghdude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533535 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 6:16 PM
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And wait, don't Jews already control Hollywood? (*sarcasm*)

Damnit David, now they know where the "meeting" is at. Get Katzenburg and Spielberg on the phone, we aren't coming over for dinner.

:)

Derek

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Author: ghdude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533537 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 6:18 PM
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Be nice. Be truthful.

Sure, but it's not hard to see how a person would think that way if they had been told nobody lived in Israel before the Jews showed up. That's what I had thought before getting a little educated on the subject.

Derek

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Author: roscodagama Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533538 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 6:22 PM
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Many Jews do denounce Jewish terrorism. Just as many Americans denounce Bush - just as many Germans denounced.... (But too few - too few - and too late...... ?).

Unfortunately to many recent migrants to Israel are happy with the 'ethnic cleansing' policies of Sharon's right wing coalition.

http://www.palestinecampaign.org/

and

http://www.palsolidarity.org/

rosco

(Links - just in case you don't follow them already, Shaggy)

regards,

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Author: davidMN Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533547 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/12/2004 6:34 PM
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Damnit David, now they know where the "meeting" is at. Get Katzenburg and Spielberg on the phone, we aren't coming over for dinner.
>>
Dude, it's at the Weinsteins'.

David

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Author: TheResultsKid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 533682 of 1977374
Subject: Re: Should Jews Denounce Jewish Terrorism? Date: 7/13/2004 1:12 AM
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Dude, it's at the Weinsteins'.

David

S...I was going to the wrong address.....

D it.

db

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