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The denialist mindframe:

Massive snow storm hits North East...wow, that's a new one. That doesn't happen every year...oh wait it does. Heck, it was "proof" back in the 70s that we were heading into the next ice age.

Guess what, it snows in New England. It snows a lot and it snows every year. Every year it's the "storm of the century".

http://boards.fool.com/massive-snow-storm-hits-north-eastwow...


Reality:

Parts of New England woke up Saturday to the largest snowfall on record — more than 3 feet in places, with more to come — after a monster blizzard that packed hurricane winds, knocked out power and marooned cars.

Transportation in much of the Northeast was at a standstill. The governors of Connecticut and Rhode Island ordered all roads closed so plows could work.

“This is a record-setting storm,” Connecticut Gov. Dannel Malloy said. “Unless you face an emergency, please stay put.”

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/09/16908958-this-is-...


Now if warming skeptics wish to repeat the caveat, "Weather is not climate", I won't argue, though I will point out that climate produces weather.

The point here is that reminding us about the difference between climate and weather, is not enough for the denialists, they even need to deny the weather.

Also note that the weather computers were spot on in their predictions that this storm would be massive. Again predicting weather is quite different from predicting climate, but in both areas the computers are getting faster and the scientists are getting smarter.

Peter
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The denialist mindframe:
__________________________

The climate control freak mindset:


AHHHHHHHHHHHH, the sky is falling, we had a storm OMG the world is coming to an end quick hurt someone, no not me someone else.
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35 years between records setting blizzards. This catastrophe can only be explained by anthropogenic global warming.

If only those who worship at the alter of AGW would stop exhaling, it would be the best thing for the earth.
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SP1 35 years between records setting blizzards. This catastrophe can only be explained by anthropogenic global warming.

There goes that denialist mindframe again. Try this instead:

105 days between massive storms in the Northeast.

Feels quite different to those who live there.

BTW, I guess you don't agree with cjb44 who thinks we get a record-setting snowstorm every year.

Peter
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Feels quite different to those who live there.

BTW, I guess you don't agree with cjb44 who thinks we get a record-setting snowstorm every year.

Peter
___________________

I live in the NE. I think it is FOS

I have lived through periods of bad weather and excepting the last couple of storms, the weather has been much nicer over the last decade than the decade before, not it is worse.

When I was a kid there was more snow then there was less, now there is more

Climate nuts look for anything to hang their hats on.

There was global cooling as we created the thermal effect, then global warming as the ozone got pezzed off, then who knows. We have all these effects we have not seen in decades(there's the key in decades)

The true deniers and the true nut jobs are the ones denying that folks with a vested interest in lying to them, lied to them.
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Plan to improve global warming:

Everybody live like Al Gore. Huge homes, tons of energy use, private jet every trip.

Live like a myriad of Liberals who preach green, yet enjoy the best in energy usage.

JediG
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Largest snowfall.

RECORD!

Like they know the weather 2,000 years ago or 10,000 years ago.

Geez. If we go back in time are we gonna see some caveman and his buddy taking a sh*t in the woods saying "Hey Demetrius, put down the fire torch and record the weather. PeterRabit and Jedi will want to know"

jediG
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105 days between massive storms in the Northeast.

Feels quite different to those who live there.


Please, tell me what it's like to those who live there... I can't imagine.

BTW, I guess you don't agree with cjb44 who thinks we get a record-setting snowstorm every year.

As far as the AGW PR machine goes we set records every year.

Most rain in the South East!

Hottest December in Texas!

Driest 104 day streak in Oklahoma!

The thing is these records often only break the existing records by a degree, or a millimeter... and the previous record often pre-dates the industrial revolution. So if the record breaking days in the modern day were only because of AGW ... what were the previous record breaking days.
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BTW, I guess you don't agree with cjb44 who thinks we get a record-setting snowstorm every year.

_________________

We don't get a record setting storm every year...we get get record setting hype. Every year it's "Snow-maggedon" or "Storm of the Century" etc etc. But in reality it's just alot of hype to bring in ratings for the Weather Channel.

Boston's snow falled ended up #11 all time. So it's not the record everyone was claiming it would be.

We do get large snow storms every year. As a kid on Long Island, I remember snow days every year from snow. I remember having to evaculate from Hurricane Gloria in 1984(maybe 85). I remember other massive storms. And freak storms happens. When massive storms become the norm instead of the exception call me.

If we have a Sandy/Nemo combination two years in arow let us know.

The sky isn't falling and Global Warming isn't the answer to every piece of weather.

Whether it's too hot, too dry, too wet, too cold, too anything the Flat Earthers always go to Global Warming as the answer. Stop going with the "in crowd". Science is about facts not consensus. One time 100% of scientists thought the Earth Flat...Consensus didn't make it fact. And if funding is only available to Global Warming Worshippers, guess where the funding goes?
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"Science is about facts not consensus. One time 100% of scientists thought the Earth Flat...Consensus didn't make it fact. And if funding is only available to Global Warming Worshippers, guess where the funding goes?"
-----------------------

Bah. My pointing this out will lead mostly to the usual supercilious scorn--as if that adequately confronted the problem--but oh well!

Your language reveals a fundamental misunderstanding about the processes of science. One wonders what it would take to establish a "fact" by your implicit definition. Scientists don't espouse immutable, unassailable Truths; that's left to churches and teleological perspectives--and, apparently, segments of the dogmatic right, who then complain that they can't get air time for their refusal to be open to emerging patterns of evidence.

Science, despite your protest, establishes theories based on consensus understandings of the natural/social/environmental world at any given time. As new pieces of information come available, paradigms gradually shift. The fact that scientists decades from now will look sadly on our current limitations of knowledge is no excuse for not acting on what we understand today. And the latter includes an _overwhelming_ scientific consensus for the reality of anthropomorphic global warming.

You may dismiss every piece of scientific evidence as pursuant to a liberal conspiracy on climate change, but please don't expect science to indulge that response. You're putting your doctrinal Truth front and center, then cherry-picking the evidence that fits your case. That directly contravenes the scientific method.

Steve
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One wonders what it would take to establish a "fact" by your implicit definition.

__________

Facts are not established and that's the point. They are facts, absolutes.

Those that ignore one study in favor of another ignore possible facts. If every scientist is running off a flawed theory then their conclusions are off. (UN studies where "hide the decline" come to mind).

Something is not a fact because 9 out of 10 scientists believe it. Heck 10 out of 10 could still be wrong.

But if a community is wrong all the time with it's "sky is falling" predictions why continue to believe them?

Want to know when I'll start believing facts, when reality matches up to them. When the solutions don't involve schemes to make the Al Gore's of the world rich.

My question to you is, how many time must the Global Warming Alarmists be wrong, before you question them?
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cjb Want to know when I'll start believing facts, when reality matches up to them.

What would that look like?

Peter
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It's the power of God. It's God watching over us.

As Obama plunges us into poverty, God knows he must raise the temperature faster than Obama spends because people will not be able to heat their homes with less money. The longer growing season will allow his people to be fed. The warmer weather will reduce disease.

God will make every effort to save the human race until Obama is out of office.

Bears
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The warmer weather will reduce disease.

Bears, I know (or at least I hope) your post was firmly tongue-in-cheek so surely you understand that the above statement couldn't be more blatantly false.

If God wanted to protect us from disease, raising global temperatures would not factor into His solution at all.
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I am surprised no one else has rec'd this post.
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If God wanted to protect us from disease, raising global temperatures would not factor into His solution at all.

It could reduce colds, pneumonia ......

The real risk, when it comes to God, will be his actions against over population. He must respond and Pandemic is the likely response (remember the black plague?)


Bears
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"It's the power of God. It's God watching over us."

The Flying Spaghetti Monster watches all.

"As Obama plunges us into poverty..."

How has he done that? (It hasn't worked so far.)

"God knows he must raise the temperature faster than Obama spends because people will not be able to heat their homes with less money."

How do you know this? Does god share his political views with you? How long have you been hearing thee voices?

"God will make every effort to save the human race until Obama is out of office."

What will he do after that? Is god a tea-partier? If this were true, why doesn't god just 'smite' him? Didn't god (in your view) give us Obama?
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"The real risk, when it comes to God, will be his actions against over population. He must respond and Pandemic is the likely response (remember the black plague?)"

Yes, but he loves you! (Thanks to George Carlin)
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How has he done that? (It hasn't worked so far.)

He has not accomplished or even attempted to balance a budget.

Did he go over by 100 billion? .... 250 billion? ..... 500 billion? ...... No ... Not close ... 2012 he went over $1.327 trillion.

Not a word about the national debt, $16.5 Trillion dollars, expected to be $22 trillion by the time he leaves office.

What beyond that has not been spoken of?

We can only barely pay the interest on our debt now. Once inflation and our own debt swings interest rates back up, even to 4% .... we will not be able to pay it and keep the government funded ... even with cuts once that point is reached .... rounding out ... lets call the mandatory payment to be over $1 trillion dollars per year by 2016.

If I was Obama, I would be standing on the Capital Dome screaming about this desperate situation that will shatter our county. Instead, he screams about getting rid of 13 shot pistol magazines .... A President should be a leader, One who guides the country, one who alerts the country to distress. .... Obama is far from that.

Bears
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Obama has said we don't have a spending problem. He said we have a revenue problem. Well, the revenues will never be able to catch up with his spending.

Obama has painted himself into a corner. He has taxed and regulated the private industry such that the U.S. is incapable of producing the growth that Obama needs to support his excessive spending appetite. In the end, Obama will have no choice but to cut spending to avoid national bankruptcy.
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"A President should be a leader, One who guides the country, one who alerts the country to distress. .... Obama is far from that."

You'd be much happier with a President that would bomb, invade, and occupy a country to two, I'm sure.
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He has not accomplished or even attempted to balance a budget.

_______________________

He has not even tried to submit a budget. Let's not talk about those absurdities that neither party gives a vote for that it takes hium past the deadline to submit each year.

The clown prince of President's is not the picture of competence.
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You'd be much happier with a President that would bomb, invade, and occupy a country to two, I'm sure.

A common liberal line .... but the fact is .... the new president is anticipated to be better than the old president .... Obama has failed

Bears
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".... but the fact is .... the new president is anticipated to be better than the old president .... Obama has failed"

That is a very low bar you set. Compared to Bush the Lesser, Obama is far and away a better President in any measure I can think of.
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<<<<That is a very low bar you set. Compared to Bush the Lesser, Obama is far and away a better President in any measure I can think of.>>>

Not much of a thinker,apparently.
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That is a very low bar you set. Compared to Bush the Lesser, Obama is far and away a better President in any measure I can think of.

Increased debt
We are still in what is a more explosive Middle East.
Not even a suggestion on how fix any of the entitlement programs
No improvement in unemployment
The unknown costs for the undefined Obamacare
Expansion of the Patriot Act
No attempts to balance the budget
A budget deficit of well over $1 trillion
No actions, alerts, directions as to solving the soon to be $22 trillion dollar national debt
Still stuttering about immigration (most likely because he has wised up to the fact we dont need another 11 million citizens on top of the 30+ million americans who cant find work)
Falling GDP

In fact, can you list a half dozen things Obama has accomplished? (vacations dont count)

Bears
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<<<<That is a very low bar you set. Compared to Bush the Lesser, Obama is far and away a better President in any measure I can think of.>>>

Not much of a thinker,apparently.
_____________________________-

I think in genera the folks that are making this measurement just do not have a reasoning faculty that would allow them to consider the scope of the utter disaster things would be, if after 8 years of Obama being a total screw-up a huge economic disaster that had nothing to do with him would hit the country.

Of course we would have been so screwed, with a guy who acted in Benghazi so absurdly, if there was something like the 9/.11 attacks that would ahve happened due to no action of his, that the second disasterous reaction would have been small potatoes.

Bush ran through two absurd tragedies, neither having much to do with his actions, now he was not a particularly good President. But Obama, who faced nothing new going wrong, has been incompetent beyond belief.

A sheepdog would have been as successful as the President in getting us out of the doldrums, likely far more so.

Obama is terrible. He has a sense of priorities that can only be compared favorably to Michael Bloomberg and he is a divisive jerk to boot.

Other than that, he is OK for an arrogant creep.
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<<<<That is a very low bar you set. Compared to Bush the Lesser, Obama is far and away a better President in any measure I can think of.>>>

"Not much of a thinker,apparently."

Bush? Heck no.
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"Increased debt"

True of every President since Carter. Next?

"We are still in what is a more explosive Middle East."

Before or after we invaded and occupied a few countries? If you are trying to say Bush made this better during his time in office, that would be laughable if it was not so sad.

"Not even a suggestion on how fix any of the entitlement programs"

How was Bush any better in this regard?

"No improvement in unemployment"

True, but I would argue that the freefall in place at the time Bush left has been stopped.

"The unknown costs for the undefined Obamacare"

As opposed to what? The existing health care situation was one of the primary reasons cited by business as a drag on the economy BEFORE teh reform act. How was that better?

"Expansion of the Patriot Act"

One I agree with you about.

"No attempts to balance the budget"

Same with Bush.

and on and on...
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<<<<That is a very low bar you set. Compared to Bush the Lesser, Obama is far and away a better President in any measure I can think of.>>>

<<<"Not much of a thinker,apparently.">>>

<<<Bush? Heck no.>>>

What a shame; not much of a thinker and a comprehension problem, too
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<<<Bush? Heck no.>>>

What a shame; not much of a thinker and a comprehension problem, too

---

I always thought so, too. Bush was really an idiot at times. Surprised that you admit it, though. Kudos for being honest.

hehe...
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That is the saddest response I have seen in a while :)


"Obama is better than Bush"

No wait,

"Bush was no better than Obama"

And, "maybe if Bush had been elected in place of Obama, things might have been worse, so Obama must not be that bad .. maybe" :)


Cant argue with that list of Obama accomplishments


Bears
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"Cant argue with that list of Obama accomplishments"

Having that conversation between you and I would be a fruitless exercise, and I'm sure you agree. You gave a list of things you thought showed Obama to be 'worse' than Bush, or at least 'not better', and I disagree with most of them.

I think he is a much better President than Bush was, and you disagree. I'll leave it at that.
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Having that conversation between you and I would be a fruitless exercise, and I'm sure you agree. You gave a list of things you thought showed Obama to be 'worse' than Bush, or at least 'not better', and I disagree with most of them.


I didnt try and list what makes anyone better than Obama ......

I just listed problems or non acomplishments since Obama took office.

I dont care about Bush 1&2, Reagan, Clinton .... Their try at bat is over .....

Obama has yet to swing for the fences.

I would be interested in the six Obama acomplishments, but, if you cant list them, that is fine

Bears
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"I would be interested in the six Obama acomplishments, but, if you cant list them, that is fine" -Bears


Here's a list of 50. I'm sure you don't think any of them 'good', but you and I are surely better off for most of them, like it or not;

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/march_april_2012/f...
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Here's a list of 50. I'm sure you don't think any of them 'good', but you and I are surely better off for most of them, like it or not;

Whew ... some real straw drawing in that list :)

Could have been 52

(51) Remembered to put down toilet seat
(52) Remembered to flush

Bears
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Preposterous Peter.

The Blizzard of 1978 was worse than Nemo, I was there, and most agree. This storm was not as bad as some of the weather folks thought, good thing too.

Bain Capital and Comcast would love you to further boost the ratings of the silly Weather Channel. Every time they sneeze, they mention climate change. Not so much Ozone anymore though ;)

Sometimes, you get a winter where the jetsam and tropics align and Noreasters happen. Many times, they occur in particular regions off the coast, and get fed from the ocean. Sometimes, they move further inland.

Some records broken in Some areas were old, 1988. Some records from 35 years ago remain intact. I'll just bet some records from the 1700's and 1800's never made it to the record books. We just didn't have as many anal people back then.
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ROTFLOL

Top 50 failures is a better description.

The top three has made matter worse not better.

The stimulus was an 800 billion dollar boondoggle that did NOTHING to improve economic conditions. Any classical economist could have told you that.


The Affordable Healthcare act is anything but affordable. It's laughable at best. To have the gall to even put this on a list of accomplishments shows the author is living in a fantasy word i.e. a world of denial.

The finance reform is anything but reform. It solves nothing, but strengthens the crony capitalism ties between big banks and government.


I stopped at #3, because to have these on any list of accomplishments ludicrous.
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[ Here's a list of 50. I'm sure you don't think any of them 'good', but you and I are surely better off for most of them, like it or not; ]

"Whew ... some real straw drawing in that list :)"

As I said...
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"ROTFLOL"

"Top 50 failures is a better description."

Sure, if you hate America.

You want Bin Laden alive.
You want the Iraq War to drag on so that more Americans can die needlessly, and more of the ME has reason to loathe us.
You want the Afghan War to drag on so that more Americans can die needlessly, and more of the ME has reason to loathe us.
You want a stronger Iran.
You want credit card companies to be able to raise your rates without warning.

Why do you hate America?
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"Sure, if you hate America.

You want Bin Laden alive.
You want the Iraq War to drag on so that more Americans can die needlessly, and more of the ME has reason to loathe us.
You want the Afghan War to drag on so that more Americans can die needlessly, and more of the ME has reason to loathe us.
You want a stronger Iran.
You want credit card companies to be able to raise your rates without warning.

Why do you hate America? "

Typical nonsense from the left and in particular, nigel, who continues to prove me right. LOL
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"Typical nonsense from the left and in particular, nigel, who continues to prove me right. LOL"

I seriously doubt that anyone has ever done that, or have even had the opportunity.
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"I seriously doubt that anyone has ever done that, or have even had the opportunity. "

Nothing to say...thanks for proving me right again.
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"I seriously doubt that anyone has ever done that, or have even had the opportunity. "

Nothing to say...thanks for proving me right again.

---

Yeah, sure. B'bye now.
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"Yeah, sure. B'bye now. "

Cop out. You can't argue real issues can you.
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The real risk, when it comes to God, will be his actions against over population. He must respond and Pandemic is the likely response (remember the black plague?)

I'm having a hard time following this conversation in the context of what God might or might not do.

Fact is, overpopulation begets the spread of disease so it's sort of a self-correcting phenomenon. That's a fairly consistent theme across most ecosystems I can think of, even bacterial colonies. We can only handle so much of ourselves before we start killing ourselves off with our own by-products.

Back to the God thing, the reason I have a hard time with that is that if He had a desire to remedy overpopulation, wouldn't it be simpler (and more humane) to have built-in controls to prevent it occurring in the first place? For instance, so I'm told, He made Woman so her body would automatically shut that whole thing down in the event of a rape. Seems a woman's rape-dar isn't too far separated in concept from an overpopulation gauge that would similarly cause a halt to naturally occurring pregnancies in the event of a resource imbalance in the biosphere. Or maybe, if you're God, it's just easier to spawn a shadow army of zombie wolves to eat the excess babies. Maybe that's where all this is headed, but just speculation on my part. When the topic turns to God, that's just all way above my pay grade.
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Obama has said we don't have a spending problem. He said we have a revenue problem. Well, the revenues will never be able to catch up with his spending.

Since the deficit has been dropping under Obama, you could hold revenues static and ultimately the spending would catch up with the revenues. Technically not the same as the revenues catching up with spending, but an intersection of those two lines just the same.
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"Since the deficit has been dropping under Obama, you could hold revenues static and ultimately the spending would catch up with the revenues."

and everyone gets three wishes when tapping their heels together.
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This is a x-post from the Climate Change Board:

So it came to be that New England had itself a righteous snowstorm. Yeppers, it happens. And sure as the sun rises in the east, there were those who cited the event as some sort of claim against global warming. True to form, they equated snowfall to cold temperatures and, of course, they were waaaaay off base. Sad, really.

Here's the thing: the water vapor content of the atmosphere is directly related to the temperature of the atmosphere. Simply put, the warmer the air, the more moisture it can hold and the more moisture in the atmosphere, the greater the potential precipitation (either as snow, ice or rain depending on the temperature of the air). Most of us learned that basic physics principle in grade school or high school. Here's a handy chart (and lesson plan) to help inform the woefully ill-informed:

http://tinyurl.com/aefnzml

As one can readily see, air (at approximately 32 degrees) can exhibit twice the moisture content of air at 14 degrees. Hey, that's physics for ya! Simple stuff, even for simpletons.

Truly frigid air holds precious little water (just check the chart again).

So...what happened in New England as a consequence of the storm named Nemo? Well, a WARM air mass ascending along the eastern seaboard collided with a colder air mass moving west to east. That WARM air mass held a LOT of water vapor. The colder air mass wasn't all that cold (consequently, it, too contained a lot of water vapor), but it was cold enough to precipitate water vapor onto the ground as snow. Voila! Record snowfall in some parts of New England.

The Denialists, Obfuscators, the totally "Foxed-up," the brain-damaged "Campfire Smoke Inhalers" and other scientifically illiterate sorts equate record snowfall to cold temps when the exact opposite is true. Sad, really.

So...how cold is it in Milford, Conn. where, by some accounts, the snowfall was the greatest? Here's the weather forecast for the area:

http://tinyurl.com/a7fa8lk

Not all that cold, actually. In fact, the daytime temperatures will remain above freezing for the coming week. This wasn't no frigid winter blast, folks. No, it was warm air colliding with moderately colder air that caused all that snow. Milford, Conn. will now resume its temperate winter climate. By the by, it was a "tell" that the air wasn't that cold to begin with given that it was raining in the general area before the air masses collided. Yeppers, the air wasn't all that cold...it just got cold enough to eventually snow...in spades.

Interestingly enough, global temperature data indicate that January has been anomalously WARM:

http://tinyurl.com/bgzdbpd

Yep, Dr. Roy Spencer (a fan favorite of "Skeptics") reported that the January global temperature anomaly was .51 deg. C. Wowza! That's one big temperature increase! Here's what Doctor Roy said about that:

Due to the rather large 1-month increase in the temperature anomaly, I double checked the computations, and found that multiple satellites (NOAA-15, NOAA-18, and Aqua) all saw approximately equal levels of WARMING versus a year ago (January, 2012), so for now I’m accepting the results as real.

Meanwhile, over at the National Snow and Ice Data Center, they were reporting that:

Air temperatures at the 925 hPa level were 2 to 5 degrees Celsius (4 to 9 degrees Fahrenheit) higher than average across much of the Arctic Ocean.

and that,

Average Arctic sea ice extent for January 2013 was the sixth lowest for the month in the satellite record. Through 2013, the linear rate of decline for January ice extent is -3.2 percent per decade relative to the 1979 to 2000 average.

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
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"The Denialists, Obfuscators, the totally "Foxed-up," the brain-damaged "Campfire Smoke Inhalers" and other scientifically illiterate sorts equate record snowfall to cold temps when the exact opposite is true. Sad, really.
"

It has become cult for you, hasn't it?? ROTFLOLO
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Government can fix all of this nasty, extreme weather stuff with a brand new (carbon) tax.
Are you a good person?
Then you want to be taxed, good and hard!
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You want the Afghan War to drag on so that more Americans can die needlessly, and more of the ME has reason to loathe us.


The United States had 32,500 military personnel (of which 23,550 were with ISAF) in Afghanistan in 2008.

By 2011 there were 101,000

Draw downs have gotten us to 68,000, still twice what Bush had.

And did you know,

Over Twice as Many U.S. Soldiers Have Died in Afghanistan Under Obama In 3 1/2 Years Than Did Under Bush in 8 Years


Seems we never hear that stuff in the press
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Fact ....

The maximum extent of glaciation was approximately 22,000 years ago.

Fact ...

Since the glaciers no longer cover half of North America as they did 22,000 years ago, the world has been getting warmer .... with no help from man.

Bears
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The fact is, Nemo came up the coast, stalled over the ocean. Classic Noreaster that was over water. It had the additional help from the cold air in the NorthWest that brought an advancing Clipper system. We got about a foot out of that one.

The water content in Nemo was very low, hence the larger than normal snowfall. We've had snowfall from big, big storms higher than Nemo, and snow that had far more water content.

Your shovel would tell you these things, no need to go on line ;)
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Your shovel would tell you these things, no need to go on line ;)
______________________

My shovel wasn't talking after I started cursing at it after an hour of so!
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"Over Twice as Many U.S. Soldiers Have Died in Afghanistan Under Obama In 3 1/2 Years Than Did Under Bush in 8 Years "

Because Bush had them dying and getting grievously wounded in the wrong arena, along with Iraqi citizens.

Ken
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"Since the glaciers no longer cover half of North America as they did 22,000 years ago, the world has been getting warmer .... with no help from man."

And man has lit a fossil fuel fire under it.

Ken
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Over Twice as Many U.S. Soldiers Have Died in Afghanistan Under Obama In 3 1/2 Years Than Did Under Bush in 8 Years

How many is that?
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"Yeah, sure. B'bye now. "

Cop out. You can't argue real issues can you. -NTL

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Two intelligent, informed, reasonable people can discuss anything. I'm in, but we need someone else that meets the criteria to make two. Know anyone?
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