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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 753922  
Subject: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 9:14 AM
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A 16-year-old schoolgirl who thought she had indigestion was stunned to discover she had actually suffered heart failure.

Jessica Smith began suffering mild chest pains and assumed it was heartburn. She saw one GP, who diagnosed indigestion and gave her Gaviscon, but the symptoms continued.

She then saw another doctor who sent her for a scan, which revealed she was in fact suffering heart failure and was just days from death.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2212168/Schoolgirl...
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



---

Would be nice if they had competent docs under socialized medicine....but the system grinds them all down..


t
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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646731 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 11:43 AM
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Telegraph,

I don't usually wish ill on people, so if the GOP manages to abolish the socialist abomination that is Medicare (which you're looking forward to, I'm sure), I sincerely hope you have no problems finding a private insurance policy that will cover whatever medical needs you have.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646737 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 11:57 AM
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AD: I don't usually wish ill on people, so if the GOP manages to abolish the socialist abomination that is Medicare (which you're looking forward to, I'm sure), I sincerely hope you have no problems finding a private insurance policy that will cover whatever medical needs you have. "

The problem with Medicare is that those on it are paying 25% of the costs of the program. Which means that taxpayers are being stuck with the rest of it.

There is no 'trust fund'. That money was spent long ago by spendaholics in both parties. It's gone.

So it is tax revenues now paying for Medicare (and increased borrowing - meaning your kids and grandkids will be paying for today's care for Medicare recipients).

It's unsustainable and everyone knows it.

You simply go to a 'guaranteed issue' policy......with things controlled by the states as they are for private policies. Just like now with all the Medicare Supplements, available from dozens of providers....

Maybe the gov't would only provide catastrophic care....(and limited - where you didn't get a heart transplant if you were over 70.....unless you had a private policy with that gold plated benefit).....

Folks will only cut back on unnecessary medical spending if they have skin in the game. My mom , when she was alive, used to tell me of the other residents in her small town going to the doc every 3 weeks just to have someone to talk to....... they really didn't need a visit, but heck, it was free, and the doc listened to them for five or ten minutes...and cost the taxpayers $100 or $150.

Folks need to have more skin in the game.

And no, health care is not a 'right'.

The alternative is a total collapse of everything....when, interest rates hit 5 or 6%.....we have 20 trillion in debt,...meaning 1/3rd of all tax revenues just go to pay for interest on the debt...and of course, inflation skyrockets along (the politicians love that)....and your cost of living goes up 6 or 8 or 10% a year..your dollar becomes worth less, your savings become worth less..and you are caught in the typical wealth destruction (and redistribution) while retired.

Is that what you want?

20 years of stagflation? like the 70s under Jimmy, peanut farmer, Carter? Interest rates hitting 15%?

Now imagine 15% interest rates on treasury notes with 20 trillion in debt? That's 3 trillion a year in interest...when the gov't take in...what, 2.7 trillion a year!......

At that point, well, long before, the gov't defaults, all programs end and we become Zimbabwe...... where you need a wheelbarrel to buy a loaf of bread...or no body will take your dollars...period....


t,.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646738 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 12:01 PM
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AD: I don't usually wish ill on people, so if the GOP manages to abolish the socialist abomination that is Medicare (which you're looking forward to, I'm sure), I sincerely hope you have no problems finding a private insurance policy that will cover whatever medical needs you have. "

The problem with Medicare is that those on it are paying 25% of the costs of the program. Which means that taxpayers are being stuck with the rest of it.

There is no 'trust fund'. That money was spent long ago by spendaholics in both parties. It's gone.
-------------------------------------------------------
More "strengthening" or "shoring up" coming?:

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/10/03/woodward-obama-plannin...

Team Obama has attacked Mitt Romney over Medicare cuts even before Romney added Paul Ryan to the ticket, and certainly that’s been a major campaign theme for Democrats ever since. Romney has responded by pointing out that Obama cut more than $700 billion from Medicare not to strengthen the program, but to expand Medicaid at the expense of senior choice through the Medicare Advantage program. However, Team Romney might have some additional ammunition after Bob Woodward’s appearance on Morning Joe today. The long-time political reporter and author claims that Obama has plans to cut more than $250 billion from Medicare in his next term, and has seen the memos detailing those proposals:

<video hayseed>

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646751 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 1:20 PM
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The alternative is a total collapse of everything....
...
Is that what you want?


Of course not. But this is the false choice the GOP presents you with.

"Either we take away healthcare for seniors or we go bankrupt."

There are alternatives, the problem is that neither you or the GOP want to consider them.
The entire rest of the developed world has some kind of universal/socialized healthcare system which is FAR less expensive than the US system while (in many countries) offering a comparable level of care. Please don't believe the nonsense the GOP tells you about the state of European healthcare.

The US in fact HAS a nationalized healthcare system which provides good care at a fraction of the cost of the private market. It's the Veteran's Health Administration, and it's far, far more efficient in its use of resources.

If you REALLY want radically cheap, efficient healthcare, you could create a public system like the VHA for basic healthcare and leave it to everyone to get private insurance and treatment for the bells and whistles, if they want.

It's not necessarily what I would advocate, but it's CERTAINLY a better option than just abolishing Medicare and leaving seniors to fend for themselves.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646754 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 1:40 PM
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Of course not. But this is the false choice the GOP presents you with.

"Either we take away healthcare for seniors or we go bankrupt."
----------------------------------------------------------------
With all due respect, what are you talking about? Seriously. Where does Ryan's or Romney's plan say, "take away healthcare for seniors or we go bankrupt". I'm beginning to get embarrassed for you and your lack of knowledge, and you're arrogant about it too.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646758 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 1:51 PM
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With all due respect, what are you talking about? Seriously. Where does Ryan's or Romney's plan say, "take away healthcare for seniors or we go bankrupt". I'm beginning to get embarrassed for you and your lack of knowledge, and you're arrogant about it too.
_____________________

Oh yeah, there's a surprise, this particular Obama worshiper using strawmen to define their superior position on issue after issue

Much like Obama being a phony and a racist and campaigning on race and/or class warfare -- this is not news so you can not talk about it

Old news is not news. That is why liberals can completely ignore history and the fact they are FOS

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646760 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 1:57 PM
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AD:"
The US in fact HAS a nationalized healthcare system which provides good care at a fraction of the cost of the private market. It's the Veteran's Health Administration, and it's far, far more efficient in its use of resources.

If you REALLY want radically cheap, efficient healthcare, you could create a public system like the VHA for basic healthcare and leave it to everyone to get private insurance and treatment for the bells and whistles, if they want. "

You joke, right?

You really joke, right?

----

Let's see..my good friend John is working on a project to replace the lighting in VA hospitals...he's visited a dozen of them.

His report: The place is a disaster.....every morning people 'line up' for appointments to try and see a doc.....only a few dozen actually get appointments, which , half the time, aren't kept. THe other half or more goes home, to come back the next day. That goes on day after day.

The places are always short staffed.......

---

then you have VA doctors like the islamo who went bonkers and killed 20 something in Killeen, TX. Missed more than half his appointments for YEARS......couldn't be bothered to show up...but, heck, they had to have 'diversity'.

The VA will hire docs who can't get a job anywhere else!....

I know half a dozen on VA care....for simple things...great...you get a serious problem needing a specialist and you are in deep doo doo with long waiting lines, and often incompetent docs......



t.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646761 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 2:06 PM
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telegraph wrote: Now imagine 15% interest rates on treasury notes with 20 trillion in debt? That's 3 trillion a year in interest...when the gov't take in...what, 2.7 trillion a year!......

Treasury Notes mature in two to ten years, so how would current holdings bear debt load of 15% interest? The interest rate can't unilaterally change. Today's Treasury Notes yield about 2% but I can't find data re how much of U. S. debt is comprised of Treasury Notes.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/rates/pd/avg/2012/2012_08...

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646762 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 2:11 PM
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With all due respect, what are you talking about? Seriously. Where does Ryan's or Romney's plan say, "take away healthcare for seniors or we go bankrupt". I'm beginning to get embarrassed for you and your lack of knowledge, and you're arrogant about it too.

The Ryan plan turns Medicare into a voucher program (or "premium support"). From 2022, these vouchers/support payments will rise only at the rate of inflation. If medical inflation remains as high as it has been, within a couple of years these payments will cover only a part of the costs to obtain insurance and many seniors - an ever increasing number - will simply be unable to afford insurance, just as is the case right now for a large minority of the general population. That is how the "Path to Prosperity" intends to save money (for the taxpayer).

The trend is likely to accelerate rapidly, as ever higher out-of-pocket payments on insurance policies create ever-increasing incentives for healthy seniors to delay their purchase of health insurance until they get sick.
That means higher payouts per capita for insurers, forcing them to raise prices, which will cause further (relatively healthy) seniors to forego insurance, and so on.

30 years from now no more than a fraction of seniors are likely to be health insured. I would assume you can't give them Medicaid as that would defeat the purpose of saving costs.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646763 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 2:15 PM
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Let's see..my good friend John is working on a project to replace the lighting in VA hospitals...he's visited a dozen of them.

Which would that be? When was that?
Since the reforms of the 90s, the VA hospitals get higher marks on many performance indicators (including patient satisfaction) than the private sector.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646764 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 2:42 PM
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"Let's take a look at the graph about debt maturity (Chart 1). It tells us that most of the U.S. debt is short-term debt payable within 5 years. The scary part is that it is a huge amount of debt that needs to be repaid (around 1-2 trillion U.S. dollar short term). $900 billion is to be paid after 1 year, $750 billion is to be paid after 2 years, $450 billion is to be paid after 3 years, etc... Even more scary is that the U.S. treasury isn't so transparent about the debt maturity report. Chart 1 is published in February 2010 and hasn't been updated lately. Also, Ben Bernanke is allegedly trying to make us believe that most of the debt is long term, which it is not (source: Ben Bernanke at Fed meeting on 7 June 2012)."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/656631-u-s-debt-maturities-e...

see chart at link



At the end of June 2011, foreign holdings of short-term debt (less than 1 year) was $881 billion. If we look at Chart 2, we see that fed holdings of U.S. treasuries was $130 billion at the end of June 2011. This indicates to us that most of the short-term debt (87%), is held by foreigners (which is the most crucial and important debt).

Let us now take a look at the average maturity date of the debt portfolio (Chart 3). It tells us that the U.S. was in real trouble during the financial crisis of 2008, where debt maturity hit an all-time low of 4 years. Imminent default was looming in that period. Today, the average debt maturity has risen to a high of 5 years, but it is still very low compared with other countries.

. Even Greece has a higher maturity of 8 years


----


wow....we're worse than Greece!.....



t

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646765 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 2:43 PM
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AD:"Since the reforms of the 90s, the VA hospitals get higher marks on many performance indicators (including patient satisfaction) than the private sector. "

In the past year.


ANd, of course, your islamo VA doc went bonkers not long ago. Could not fire him....seldom showed up for work......but heck, the VA is so desperate for docs, they'll take any half warm body....



t

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646767 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 3:02 PM
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Let us now take a look at the average maturity date of the debt portfolio (Chart 3). It tells us that the U.S. was in real trouble during the financial crisis of 2008, where debt maturity hit an all-time low of 4 years. Imminent default was looming in that period.


What an incredible silly statement. At no time in history was DEMAND for US treasuries - ESPECIALLY short-term US treasuries - as high as during the financial crisis of 2008. That is why the treasury issued short-term instead of long-term maturities at the time, in order to provide market participants a highly liquid "flight-to-safety" asset. The idea that in 2008 "default was looming" shows that the author of the article has no understanding whatsoever of what goes on in the bond market.

Today, the average debt maturity has risen to a high of 5 years, but it is still very low compared with other countries.

Even Greece has a higher maturity of 8 years


First of all, the US doesn't need long-term maturities for solvency reasons the way Greece does because unlike Spain/Italy/Germany etc., the US can print its own money and have the Fed buy the bonds. It is thus much less vulnerable to short-term demand volatility.

The reason why US debt maturity dropped so much during the 2000s was that short-term debt carries a lower interest rate than long-term debt, and so taking on short-term debt makes the deficit look better.
It made little long-term sense at the time, because during the Bush presidency long-term yields were at record lows and it would have made sense to "lock in" those low rates for the long-term.
However, making the budget deficit look small in the short-term was Bush's top priority, not the long-term fiscal health of the US government.

Note that under Obama, the maturity of government debt has been rising rapidly. If it hadn't, the US would be paying considerably less interest, lowering the deficit in the short term, but likely resulting in higher interest payments down the road.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646777 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 4:21 PM
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AD wrote: 30 years from now no more than a fraction of seniors are likely to be health insured. I would assume you can't give them Medicaid as that would defeat the purpose of saving costs.


You do understand, don't you, that the Medicare Trust is on its way to insolvency?

https://www.cms.gov/apps/media/press/release.asp?Counter=434...

The Medicare Trustees Report released today shows that the Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund is expected to remain solvent until 2024, the same as last year’s estimate, but action is needed to secure its long-term future. In 2011, the HI Trust Fund expenditures were lower than expected.

Libruls...mathematically challeged.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646779 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 4:24 PM
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AD suggests: If you REALLY want radically cheap, efficient healthcare, you could create a public system like the VHA for basic healthcare and leave it to everyone to get private insurance and treatment for the bells and whistles, if they want.

Patient: So what's the verdict, Doc?

Physician: You've got a crushed disk at C6.

Patient: So what can be done?

Physician: We can put you in a brace for life or you can undergo surgery to insert an artificial disk.

Patient: I'll take the surgery.

Physician: Well, no, you can't. The least expensive solution is the lifetime brace, so that's all you can get under universal healthcare.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646780 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 4:25 PM
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The Medicare Trustees Report released today shows that the Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund is expected to remain solvent until 2024, the same as last year’s estimate, but action is needed to secure its long-term future. In 2011, the HI Trust Fund expenditures were lower than expected.

Libruls...mathematically challeged.
--------------------------------
No, no, no! We're supposed to assume that Medicare is exactly the same going into the future and if you want to make changes then you're "destroying medicare as we know it". You aren't allowed to talk about insolvency. If you don't mention it will remain viable forever.

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Author: twopairfullhouse Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646784 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 4:30 PM
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I'm beginning to get embarrassed for you and your lack of knowledge, and you're arrogant about it too.

Lots of liberals are both ignorant and arrogant. They don't care about what they don't know. That's tremendously liberating. One need not think rationally; just 'emote' and all will be well, or else it's the fault of those evil Republicans.

Think about all the failures of Obama that they proudly declare as successes. One wonders what they would consider failure. That is, other than having a Republican in the White House.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646785 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 4:35 PM
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You do understand, don't you, that the Medicare Trust is on its way to insolvency?

Yes. That doesn't mean, however, that getting rid of Medicare is the best solution.




Patient: So what's the verdict, Doc?

Physician: You've got a crushed disk at C6.

Patient: So what can be done?

Physician: We can put you in a brace for life or you can undergo surgery to insert an artificial disk.

Patient: I'll take the surgery.

Physician: Well, no, you can't. The least expensive solution is the lifetime brace, so that's all you can get under your private insurance plan.


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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646789 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 4:55 PM
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"The Medicare Trustees Report released today shows that the Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund is expected to remain solvent until 2024, the same as last year’s estimate, but action is needed to secure its long-term future. In 2011, the HI Trust Fund expenditures were lower than expected. "


Joke?


The Hospital Trust Fund is full of IOUs......all the money that came in was spent.

In order to have money to 2024, the government will have to cash in those IOUs....in other words, borrow more money to pay back the IOUs in the 'trust fund' which has zero balance.

So...from now till then, each year, the gov't will 'cash in' those IOUs and borrow even more money....to pay for them.

Same with the shell game called SS....there is no money in the 'trust fund'. Just IOUs,...and to 'redeem' them, the gov't has to borrow trillions more!....

Libruls - math challenged....and politicians...slimeball 'shell game' players.

t.

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646790 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 5:10 PM
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Where does Ryan's or Romney's plan say, "take away healthcare for seniors or we go bankrupt"

Get with the program hayseed, that was the subtitle of the cartoon showing them pushing grandma of a cliff in her wheelchair.

JLC

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646793 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 5:17 PM
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AD:"
The US in fact HAS a nationalized healthcare system which provides good care at a fraction of the cost of the private market. It's the Veteran's Health Administration, and it's far, far more efficient in its use of resources.


Tele, I greyed out this bozo for obvious reasons but I had to respond to this part.

During my residency training, I spent several months at the local VA hospital. Here is a prime example of how efficient they are with resources. We would often need an echocardiogram (ultrasound of the heart) on patients. We often would have to send the patients home "on pass" and to come back and be re-admitted in a couple of days. Why? The echo techs had accumulated so much overtime, which had to be used in extra days off not in extra pay, they often only worked 3 or 4 days a week. If we tried to schedule these guys for an outpatient echo, good luck if its within 6 months.

So the VA spent way more discharging/admitting guys into the hospital unnecessarily than what it would have been in overtime pay for an echo tech.

And this was at one of the best VA hospitals in the country.

The VA system often runs like the Queen of Heart from Alice in Wonderland is in charge.

JLC

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Author: bighairymike Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 646810 of 753922
Subject: Re: Socialized medicine - Part Nth Date: 10/3/2012 8:07 PM
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Lots of liberals are both ignorant and arrogant. They don't care about what they don't know. - twopair

-----------------

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Reagan <salute>

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