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Author: fedja One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 176841  
Subject: some thoughts vs feelings Date: 9/13/2001 4:48 PM
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And when our military has repaid the terrorists' favor 100 times over ... (Bill Mann)

I was reluctant to post my thoughts below but the idea to destroy 200 towers and to kill over 1,000,000 people on Earth (supposing that the number of NY victims exceeded 10,000, which is quite likely) is more than I can bear to read silently. So here is my humble opinion.

a) That was not an attack AGAINST America or an attack ON America, but an IN America AND in Afganistan (chosen as the most and the least advanced country to show that this may happen in ANY country) on the world's INTEGRITY and balance.

b) This was not a "full-scale war operation", but merely "a warning to this world" (comparable to unabomber) (though to justify the loss of 10,000+ human lives is impossible).
Full scale operation by a well-organized terrorist organization would include a bit more than 4 airplanes and 3 buildings in 2 cities in the US (As of this moment, I do not know much about Kabul, but, since shooting and bombing has been a "usual style of life" in Afganistan for the last decade, the impact there should be estimated using different units). Besides mere difference in numbers, it would also include a simultaneous attack on communication lines (comparable or exceeding in efficiency the "red worm virus"), rage-accelerating media coverage (available for free in most countries) and a few other components.

c) The attack succeeds not when a few buildings and aicraft are destroyed (this merely brings the world's wealth a few billions of
dollars down) and not when 30,000+ people die (this merely shifts the Grim Reaper's clock forward by 5 hours), but when the people of one nation start blaming people of other nation, when media escalates the rage and, which is the most dangerous, when RETALIATION (usually with the damage factor exceeding 1) is substituted for JUSTICE

and, the most importantly,

d) The main question is not "Whom to blame?" (leave that to FBI
and CIA; they'll do it better than you), and even not "How to help?"
(I hate to say it, but very few of the victims will need blood transfusion when found and the government has enough money reserves, though as signs of moral support, the donations are great) but "What lesson to learn?" That is what everybody should try to answer and discuss, to my humble opinion. My answer would be that America (as well as any other country) can no longer afford to consider itself an island separated from the rest of the world concerned only with its own interests and living by its own rules. National borders and goverments outlived themselves by the end of the 20th century. And if the only way to make countries and nations unite is to show them a "common enemy", it has been shown to them now (under the name of "international terrorism", if you need word identificators).

Fedja.
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Author: ender66 Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2490 of 176841
Subject: Re: some thoughts vs feelings Date: 9/13/2001 5:03 PM
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hear! hear!



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Author: hph459 Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2497 of 176841
Subject: Re: some thoughts vs feelings Date: 9/13/2001 5:10 PM
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Whether warning or full scale war, the fact is innocent men, women and children were murdered. It was not against our military who chose to take these risks. These people and the countries that harbor them are cowards. The death of civilians makes no point. It angers a country and should anger all countries who are civil. I went through the names and ages of the passengers in the planes involved. There were several 11 year olds, an 8 year old and a 3 year old. You want me come after me not my kids.

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Author: GrayWulff Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2570 of 176841
Subject: Re: some thoughts vs feelings Date: 9/13/2001 6:44 PM
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Some thoughts:

Our decision to "do something" does not have to be limited to treating this as a crime. That implies that we must sift evidence, conduct a trial and only then administer justice. We can also choose to take action against all terrorist organizations, regardless of their involvement in this particular atrocity.

Our actions need not, and should not, be limited to violence. We can demand that governments expel terrorists from their soil. We can listen to honest grievences against our own actions and take steps to remedy them. We can examine our own actions and assess where we have replaced justice with expediency. Most important of all, we can use extreme care not to injure the citizens of any country just because they dislike us our have misguided leadership--we must not become the moral equivalent of our own enemies.

GW

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Author: fedja One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2682 of 176841
Subject: Re: some thoughts vs feelings Date: 9/13/2001 10:34 PM
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Thanks GrayWuff! That is exactly what I meant by "one more Nurenberg process" (with "terrorism" substituted for "nazism"). You put it much better than I myself could. I would love to see it done on the international scale and with participation of all countries or, at least, all "civilized countries". And if not the USA, then who is currently capable of calling for and conducting such a process? And if not now, then when? I cannot see a better country and a better moment (unless we want to wait until what I described as a "full scale war" occurs somewhere). And one of the results I would love to see would be the International Federation with USA and (West?) Europe as two first (super)states. But as of today those are only sweet dreams... The only thing I can do is to share them with you and to hope that, maybe, some other people shall hear them and make them come true.

fedja.

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2685 of 176841
Subject: Re: some thoughts vs feelings Date: 9/13/2001 10:35 PM
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I was reluctant to post my thoughts below but the idea to destroy 200 towers and to kill over 1,000,000 people on Earth (supposing that the number of NY victims exceeded 10,000, which is quite likely) is more than I can bear to read silently. So here is my humble opinion.

Could you possibly be more polemical? You know damned well what was meant, and that ain't it.

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2687 of 176841
Subject: Re: some thoughts vs feelings Date: 9/13/2001 10:39 PM
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As to people, sorry, you are wrong. They are a damn serios threat, no fools and rather daring (criminals - yes, moral monsters - yes, but "cowards" or "inhuman" - no

What notion of courage do you hold that allows murdering innocent women and children? What concept of humanity permits this? Your remark is outrageous!

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