It is nice to see that some teachers are starting to fight back against the war being waged against them.Every teacher in this nation should join them.If they don't they will end up in the same sorry state that Oklahoma has created for teachers, and the children here.We now have no tenor, no seniority, are 49th in teacher salaries and 50th in per student spending on education. The state board of education has been stripped of all power and the head of the OK state Department of Education is a crony hired to dismantle the education system in Oklahoma in favor of charter schools and private schools for profit. (Baressi) who has been given dictator like power over the whole state.Good luck Chicago, you do not want to be like us.CB
What nonsense. They already have an average pay in excess of $70,000, BEFORE benefits, in a city where the overall average is under $50,000 and very few get the kinds of benefits the teachers get. This kind of greed gives all teachers a bad name with the public.I would have sympathy for them if it as just working conditions and teacher evaluations at issue, but they lose me with their outlandish salary demands. 16% on top of what they are getting is not enough? Sheesh!!
We now have no tenor I trust you are not a teacher, if so I am sure you would teach your kids that it is tenure. Or maybe the cuts have really hurt the choir ;-)I do find it fascinating that Democrat Rahm Emanuel has been forced into this corner. Finally, he has to actually run something that requires allocation of limited resources. From NY Times..http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/opinion/chicago-teachers-f... Mr. Emanuel attracted the union’s anger when the city, citing budget deficits, rescinded a 4 percent raise that was supposed to go into effect last year. He further angered the union by bypassing the collective-bargaining process with a new policy that lengthened one of the shortest school days in the nation. Comparatively speaking, however, Chicago’s teachers are well paid, with an average salary of about $75,000 a year (roughly the same as in New York City). Before the strike, the city agreed to increase the size of the teacher corps to handle the longer school day. And despite its dismal fiscal condition, the city says it has offered the union a 16 percent raise over the next four years.Ouch, rescinded a 4% raise. Who gets that raise these days? This year my company gave back 1 day of holiday that they took away last year. Yea! I understand the economy is bad, I am glad to work hard and have a job. I, and I bet anyone on this board would be way happy with a guaranteed 16% raise over 4 years! Really! When is that last time my company could give a 4% raise? I cannot remember. I get evaluated EVERY year. EVERY year. How to I fight back? Try to be a better employee than other people so that I am valuable and have a better chance of getting one of the scarce higher ratings. I do feel so sorry for these employees, they do deserve much better salary than the average Chicagoan, and better benefits, and a shorter work day and guaranteed raises and no evaluations for performance. Fight the power!
It is nice to see that some teachers are starting to fight back against the war being waged against them.LOL, ya, because Rahm Emanuel is soo anti-teacher.Good luck Chicago, you do not want to be like us.No, but I bet a lot of teachers in Oklahoma would LOVE to be as well off as Chicago teachers - before the strike.
I really, really would like to see you in a classroom.Ishtar
I actually agree on the raises at the moment if they really did have a 4% per year agreement.But your disdain for teachers shows a lack of understanding about the job.Ishtar
But your disdain for teachers shows a lack of understanding about the job. I guess you were talking to me, hard to tell. But no, I have no disdain for teachers. I loved all my teachers, I had great ones. My Aunt was a teacher. My grandfather was a revered principal of our high school, he was the first to integrate a high school sports team in the south and had crosses burned in his yard. Teachers are as great as other members of society. Like EVERY other profession, there is a bell curve of quality. I believe those at the top of the quality curve should be paid much more and should get bonuses to pass along their knowledge to others. Those in the middle should be provided further training during the summer as part of their job requirement. Those at the bottom get one opportunity to improve or be replaced. The problem is the UNIONS. Lots of disdain for them. The union job is solely to benefit the teacher at the expense of anything. I don't blame them, if I hire a lawyer, I expect him to work tirelessly for my benefit - not for society, not for the other side, not for justice - but for me. But unions will sacrifice kids, parents and tax payers, they do not care and should not, they are there for the teachers. Unions also have the problem of entrenched leadership that want to benefit themselves. Union leaders make big bucks! The Chicago teachers wanted a 30% raise over four year and Rahm ONLY offered them 16%, which they will not take. I have disdain for that action, that choice, that hubris. $76,000 a year, summer off, 7.5% guaranteed raise per year and only 15% of your students have to learn to read. I will take that kind of job. Why is it impossible to evaluate a teacher and then get rid of the worst ones? Why? Every year someone is declared "teacher of the year", probably in every state. Gee, how were they evaluated. Certainly there are some attributes there besides test scores that can be used to fairly evaluate others. When society pretends that kids sports games without scoring are more fair for the kids, who are they fooling? The kids know how much they scored and who won. When unions say you can't evaluate teachers and can't fire the worst ones while rewarding the best ones, who do they think they are fooling. Kids know when they have a bad teacher or a good teacher. Left to their own, teachers could do great, they could put the kids first, they could be rewarded for good performance, unions do not allow this. How about this story I heard on tv, it might have been about Rahm, it might have been another, but it is true. An administrator (or Rahm) was talking to a group of teachers, at 3:30 they all got up and left the room because union rules did not require them to be a school any longer. That is disdain for the person speaking and trying to work with them. How can you run an organization that never has to care what needs to be done or what changes needed to be made for the better, for the kids.Another story from a California teacher - she wanted to stay late to help some students, but the union bosses said that was against the rules. Can't stay late, no matter how much you want to.So, Ishtar, you don't have disdain for that?
I have seen teachers in California schools (as in more than one) at the school well over an hour after school lets out.Two of the mentor teachers that I worked with routinely met at one of their houses for much more than 10 hours a week. They worked on lesson plans and developing tests together. You don't see that, but it happens.Ishtar
Childish stabs at proof reading aside, Chicago teachers are at the front of the fight against a nationwide assault on all teachers.Apparently this the the Teachers(bashing board) I didn't see the fine print when I walked in.Probably why there are only about a dozen posters here...Good luck with your charter schools, NCLB,TLE,HSTW,Common Core,Budget cuts,school closings,layoffs,P.A.S.S.,school closings,consolidations,vouchers,unfunded mandates,salary freezes,larger classes, less funding, more B.S. etc...I'll be out of it all in about two years, I have had too much already.Soon Oklahoma will be one of the first states where a teacher can be hired and spend an entire 20-30 year teaching "career" without a raise.I use the term "career" loosely since we now have less benefits than Burger King.CB
I use the term "career" loosely since we now have less benefits than Burger King.It is comments like this that makes us question your credibility. Perhaps you are being overly facetious but if so, such a response does more to alienate others than it does to educate them to your point of view.I hope that is not how you would respond to students in the classroom.Teachers continue to have outstanding benefits - often better than their privately employed peers.I just detailed yesterday to someone that Mass teachers making average pay ($70,000 in their system) can retire as early as 57 will full benefits (80% of pay) and receive a pension of over $50,000 for the rest of their life.I don't know about you but I think that is an outstanding benefit - one that no fast food chain could ever duplicate.Lastly, this board is titled "Teachers" not pro-teachers or anti-teachers so all viewpoints should be welcome. If this board was titled "The Economy" one would expect we would find comments that think it is doing great and comments that think it is doing lousy.I would guess that very few posters here are anti-teacher but when there is a strike for individuals making nearly twice the average household income of their neighbors, it is likely you will see less sympathy for their plight. Chicago teachers had one of the fewest classroom hours of any school in the country. They've had a pretty sweet deal compared to their teaching peers for quite some time - and will likely still have a better deal when the ink is dry.
Really?Oklahoma teachers just had all of the seniority and redress rights upon termination eliminated.The legislature put Janet Barresi (a dentist) in as head of the department of education whose main claim to fame is starting charter schools and intends to help the erosion of education in this state.(read: privatization)The legislature stripped the board of any power to stop her assault on education, basically making her a dictator.Our last raise was in 1998-1999 after teachers marched on the capital.Strikes were made illegal in Oklahoma year ago.We don't have any benefits other than salary. We pay our insurance costs, which doesn't cover near what it should when we need it.What is different from this that Burger King, except BK doesn't require a college degree?CB
Your are presenting facts against ideology. Obviously you cannot see you have the losing position.PF
Your are presenting facts against ideology. LOL, I guess all the facts I previously posted are irrelevant; because they don't fit your ideology?Just what is my ideology? I am married to a teacher. Both of my inlaws are retired teachers. My aunt is a teacher. My father used to teach at a Commmunity College.I must be anti-teacher. It certainly would be in my best interest that my wife and much of my family get less income and benefits.::rolleyes::
Our last raise was in 1998-1999 after teachers marched on the capital.http://ok.gov/sde/state-minimum-teacher-salary-scheduleMinumum salary for teachers by years of experience. Unless I am misreading this, you get a salary increase for every year of experience. Is the state website incorrect?We don't have any benefits other than salary.Really? Are you lying or just not informed about your own benefits?https://www.ok.gov/TRS/bencalc/calculate.phpHere is a link to your TRS Pension Calculator. I just plugged in some random numbers.A teacher making $50,000 a year over their last three years could retire at age 60* and get a lifetime pension of $3200 a month or $38,400 a year. If that person lives to age 90, they will receive over $1,100,000 in retirement income.Yep, no benefits there at all. Just like Burger King.Date of Birth: 08/01/1952Date Joined: 08/01/1974Accrued Sick Days: 40Growth Factor: 0Beneficiary Date of Birth: Estimated Retirement Year: June 2013June 2013 60 39 99 $3,200.00 *Yes, I am aware of the recent changes of HB 1010 and SB 377 but those changes apply mostly to brand new teachers and not those currently in the system.No question, Oklahoma teachers are not as well off as teachers in many other states. I never suggested otherwise. In fact, I stated that Oklahoma teachers would love to have it as good as teachers in Chicago. But, to say you have no benefits is silly and grossly incorrect. Most of your private, four-year degree peers would love to have a pension even as good as the one to which you have access.PS: But hey, I don't post facts. Per others here, I am just an ideologue so feel free to dismiss what I post or the links to official sites.
Apparently this the the Teachers(bashing board) I didn't see the fine print when I walked in. So this thread started like this...It is nice to see that some teachers are starting to fight back against the war being waged against them. Not about teaching methods. not about the best way to educate our kids, but about "war". So do you not expect a counter argument or two. Ishtar: I really, really would like to see you in a classroom.Would I be allowed to have an opinion and debate with facts, or would I be declared a war-monger and sent to the corner?Chicago teachers are at the front of the fight against a nationwide assault on all teachers.So I was listening to NPR this morning, not Fox, they said the teacher strike was about 3 things:1) pay2) the spread of charter schools3) teacher evaluation.Ok, let's check out this "war".1) Chicago teachers are asking for 30% over 4 years, or 7.5% a year. Rahm offered 16%, or 4% per year, which they declined. Who gets that? Who gets either one? My company gave an average raise of 1.5% this year, less last year. Last year they took away one day of holiday pay so they could avoid laying off people. I was fine with this trade off. I know the economy is terrible.2) Charter Schools. Why be scared of them? Laptop makers are scared of the iPad, because it is better. Kodak was scared of Digital photograph because it make them obsolete. So why are public school teachers scared of charter school teachers?3) Evaluation. Why is it bad to evaluate employees? I am evaluated every year. If you are a teacher, ask yourself if you are the best teacher in the school? If so, you are evaluating yourself and all others. If you think some other teachers are better, then you are still evaluating yourself and all others? How is this possible? Certainly you must think you are exactly the same as all other teachers. Why can't the union say, "evaluation is possible and here is our reasonable offer how to evaluate teachers"? I really, really would like to see you in a classroom. Ok, let's take this as "you don't know what it is like unless you tried". True to an extent, but not relevant. As Ross Perot said, "you don't have to be a chicken to smell a bad egg" - Teachers are good, unions are bad eggs, I can smell that in Chicago and DC and other places. I know nothing about engine repair, but I know there are great mechanics, good mechanics, and bad mechanics. Thinking all should not be paid equally or thinking it is nice to have Angie's list to help me find a good one is not the same as bashing. As noted, I don't have anything against teachers and have several direct and in-law relatives in the the public school system (past and present). Why is it bashing to think a 30% guaranteed raise is crazy and abusive of the tax payers? Why is it bashing to say the firing of the teacher of the year because of seniority and tenure is worth disdain. Why can a really bad teacher with seniority be kept over a young teacher that is much, much better.
But your disdain for teachers shows a lack of understanding about the job.I agree with most of his position. Does this mean I have disdain for teachers? Does it mean that I have a lack of understanding about the job?Acme
Would I be allowed to have an opinion and debate with facts, or would I be declared a war-monger and sent to the corner?I am not the one that used the war analogy.I am for some reform. I do think some teachers and organizations are . . . politically deaf at the moment, and they aren't relating to what's been happening in the private sector or even in other parts of the public sector (state and local governments have laid off a ton of people in the last three years).But you have often come on here and talked about how "easy" teaching is (in your mind) and how easy teachers have it and, "Why don't the teachers just do THIS?" That's why I say I'd like to see you in a classroom.And when you rant about "the unions". . . "the unions" are the teachers. When you attack the unions, you're attacking the teachers.Ishtar
But you have often come on here and talked about how "easy" teaching is (in your mind) and how easy teachers have it and, "Why don't the teachers just do THIS?" That's why I say I'd like to see you in a classroom.I agree that he has been misguided and uninformed (ignorant is the correct word, but it has such a negative connotation) on the difficulties and challenges of teaching. Also about what is likely to work and what won't.But...And when you rant about "the unions". . . "the unions" are the teachers. When you attack the unions, you're attacking the teachers.I don't agree with you at all here. Yes, teachers are members of the unions. And they elect the officers. But unions are far more than the teachers and it is this extra portion that seems to cause so many issues. (That and so many ignorant teachers that don't really know what they have and/or would get in any other career given their overall set of skills.) I often despise the actions of teachers unions; does that mean I despise the teachers?Acme
I have not yet worked as a teacher, and I've never been a member of a union, so it's likely that my POV is . . . idealistic. But it's like the gov't, isn't it? The gov't, in theory, is US, all of us, collectively. So, if you don't like what the gov't is doing, you have to get involved to change it. Aren't unions the same thing? If you're a member and you don't like what they're doing, campaign for them to do something else? Yeah, ok, maybe one person doing that is a drop in the bucket, but the point it to collect more drops, no? Convert people to your POV?I don't like some of the things teachers unions do, but at the moment, I'm not in a position to change it. Maybe I will be some day.On another note, DrBooa on another board linked to this series of graphics, where there is some interesting data on Texas and US education:http://uteachweb.cns.utexas.edu/sites/default/files/Educatio...I'm still mulling over what page 8 means (weak unions vs strong unions and student outcome). But I think Puddin' should look at page 19 (charter school performance).I'm not done going through it yet, but it has some interesting points.Ishtar
But you have often come on here and talked about how "easy" teaching is (in your mind) and how easy teachers have it and, "Why don't the teachers just do THIS?" That's why I say I'd like to see you in a classroom. This is a reasonable statement and I accept it. I have offered some naive ideas, but not condescendingly or maliciously (not that you say that). Acme indicates my ideas may be out of "ignorance" in next post. I am not a teacher, so am ignorant to that extent. Most teachers don't work in a merit based system, so they are "ignorant" to how that works.I do try to teach and mentor newer employees, and while not nearly the same as teaching kids, I do have to deal with a variety of learning styles, skill levels, motivation levels and intelligent levels, so have to deal with a tiny bit.I believe we need huge changes to the system, it is broken. In poor systems like here in DC the administration has been horrible, among many other things wrong (Spend more per student than anywhere in US and get nothing for it). I believe teachers should receive great support with classroom technology and supplemental training. My company offers cash rewards for obtaining certain certifications. This is good, but tiny way to help teachers. I believe a students should be in groups best suited to their needs so that teachers don't have to spend excessive time on one "slow" student at the expense of all the others. You had a student that was unreachable and unteachable (for your class level), the system should not burden you with that. The system should be able to evaluate students at no more than every 2 weeks and use computers to find trends and problem spots. Does the whole class fail to understand a concept, or do a couple students need a little help to catch up? I truly hope that I have never attacked anyone personally. I have a strong desire that ALL our kids get a great education and help make this country greater and, sure, help pay my social security when I retire ;-)I want to have constructive conversations and debates, but you can tell I have strong opinions, but I am willing to listen to and debate and maybe believe factual and reasonable alternatives. I started a thread on evaluation. I ask kindly that you help contribute good ideas, that you as a teacher think can help better reward good teachers and better fix or replace subpar teachers.Thanks, and all the best in your life and teaching endeavors.P.P.S. this will sound odd, but I have actually learned a lot about dogs and life and kids from the Dog Whisperer, and that makes me optimistic and naive about some solutions I might offer. I have had dogs for about 20 years now, and they we mostly well behaved. But when I started watching the DG, I learned a lot about consistency, setting boundaries, being the alpha dog, etc. My dogs became much better behaved because of little things I realized I was or was not doing. I see him walk into a situation of chaos and you can see the the family is also in chaos. No natural leader, kids also not disciplined. By the end of the show, the grown ups realize that it is ok to set boundaries for their dog, and how the dog actually needs that and appreciates it. I have seen where the kids have learned from this and the parents actually also have better control over their whole family life. (No I am not saying kids are just like dogs)So yes, sometimes I naively think a that a teacher "just needs to be the alpha and take control". I get fooled by those movies based on real-life events where and ex-marine comes in to an inner city school and takes control and instills discipline and turns the kids into successful students. I get hope when someone "Stands and Delivers".I have spent crazy hours on this board tonight. Not to bash anyone. Not to hate anyone. But because I am passionate about educating kids. I don't know why, can't explain it. Perhaps because education has made my life great. When I watch tv these days and see people burn the American flag, it does not rile me up or empassion me. This does.
I agree that he has been misguided and uninformed (ignorant is the correct word I admit to this to an extent,see a follow on post to Ishtar. I don't agree with you at all here. Yes, teachers are members of the unions. And they elect the officers. But unions are far more than the teachers and it is this extra portion that seems to cause so many issues. (That and so many ignorant teachers that don't really know what they have and/or would get in any other career given their overall set of skills.) I often despise the actions of teachers unions; does that mean I despise the teachers? Thanks, I know I am not totally dumb and evil and wrong. Ishtar: if you don't like what the gov't is doing, you have to get involved to change it. Aren't unions the same thing? If you're a member and you don't like what they're doing, campaign for them to do something else? Ok, so we can both be naive. The union is a big powerful organization that is also VERY interested in preserving its power. How often do you think members get to vote on a new union president? Do they have primaries and "opposing parties"? Some union bosses make more than the US President. When Wisconsin said union members could not be forced to pay dues, almost 50% stopped paying. Is that some kind of vote? Union members don't even get a say in how there dues are used to support one political party or another. What is the incentive to change an organization that gets you a guaranteed raise larger than the general public, a pension and tenure? Unions are powerful enough to control elections. In DC they spent $2 million to oust the mayor when he allowed the bottom 2% of teachers be fired. They won. What member wants to change that?
On another note, DrBooa on another board linked to this series of graphics, where there is some interesting data on Texas and US education:http://uteachweb.cns.utexas.edu/sites/default/files/Educatio......I'm still mulling over what page 8 means (weak unions vs strong unions and student outcome).The statement at the bottom is the most significant thing: "Differences in state performance that might be attributed to unions are small compared with effects of poverty."I could analyze the chart further, but this statement sums it up well. Unions have little impact on the quality of education.Acme
Most teachers don't work in a merit based system, so they are "ignorant" to how that works.I absolutely agree that this is an issue. I spent 7 years working as an engineering consultant after I got my Ph. D. (chemical engineering). This time gave me a lot of insight into the "real" world as well as into how your performance guides your compensation. One year, I did not do well. I got no bonus or raise while others got 3-5% raises and small bonuses. Another year, I managed the most profitable project in the history of the company. I got a bonus equal to 2 months of my salary plus a 10% raise at a time when the company as a whole was giving an average bonus equal to one-week of salary and ~2% raises. So I am very familiar with this aspect of the world!I think it would be best if all teachers had this experience. Unfortunately, few people are willing to take the type of pay cut that I accepted in becoming a teacher. It is not an exaggeration to say that I currently make one-third of what I could make in other areas with my background, experience, and ability. I do it for personal reasons and I have never regretted the move. But I don't blame others with my background and ability from deciding they cannot take that kind of hit against their pay.Acme
The statement at the bottom is the most significant thing: "Differences in state performance that might be attributed to unions are small compared with effects of poverty."This could be be read two ways:1) unions do not help or hurt the education of children2) There is no incentive for a state to be subject to the demands of a union and heath and retirement benefits that cannot be sustained into the future. FYI, the link appears to be bad "page not found" maybe incomplete copy/paste.
This could be be read two ways:1) unions do not help or hurt the education of children2) There is no incentive for a state to be subject to the demands of a union and heath and retirement benefits that cannot be sustained into the future. I think both are true.FYI, the link appears to be bad "page not found" maybe incomplete copy/paste. You just have to go back to ishtar's post where it was found. It definitely was a good link from there.Acme
The statement at the bottom is the most significant thing: "Differences in state performance that might be attributed to unions are small compared with effects of poverty."I could analyze the chart further, but this statement sums it up well. Unions have little impact on the quality of education.Yeah, the prevailing theme in all the pages is about poverty being the biggest thing.Ishtar
Yeah, the prevailing theme in all the pages is about poverty being the biggest thing.Taking their analysis a step further...At low poverty levels, unions are at least neutral and may even be beneficial to a small degree. On the other hand, at high poverty levels, unions are detrimental to student achievement.Acme
And that's the part I was mulling over.Ishtar
At low poverty levels, unions are at least neutral and may even be beneficial to a small degree. On the other hand, at high poverty levels, unions are detrimental to student achievement. I suspect that the higher the poverty, the less the parents tend to interact with the educational system, or at least they have much less influence on the way it is run. They also can't vote with their feet. Here in the greater DC area, Fairfax county has great public schools, but because of that (in part), housing prices are higher. People who can, move to Fairfax county because it is way cheaper than a private school in DC. Plus when you sell your house you get your money back. Not true for a private school. I was a strong supporter of Head start, which is directed at higher poverty areas. I believe that those most in need deserve good help to get and equal start. I hoped that headstart would make a difference in their lives and that it was a good use of tax payer money. I was sad to find that a government study showed it really had no benefit. I think the results were that after a year in public school, kids from headstart were no better off or more advanced than their classmates that did not have headstart. Too bad.P.
Can you find that study?Because I recall more than one that said pre-school was beneficial, whether or not it was Headstart, but I could be wrong.Ishtar
Head Start Study Suggests Minimal Benefits (2005)http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4697531...If you search for "Head Start study" you will find a few studies on the subject, both positive and negative.-------------My anecdotal opinion is that while Head Start may provide some benefits to poor children, the lack of involvement of the poor parents has a far greater impact. My wife teaches high school at an inner city, majority-minority school and of the 150 or so students she has, typically less than 20 parents show up for parent teacher conferences.When I went to my son's kindergarden graduation, we had almost 100% parent participation - and that was during the work day. Which of the above two events is more important?My son is in a different school system than the one in which my wife teaches.
>We now have no tenor<And the soprano is looking green around the gills. . .
Some details of the Chicago Teacher contract:The contract calls for base salary increases of 3 percent this year and 2 percent in each of the following two years, as well as some lucrative raises for experience and advanced education. While some teachers will earn raises worth about 25 percent over three years, the average teacher, who has 14 years of experience and a master's degree or higher, will get 7.5 to 9.6 percent gains over the length of the contract.With the tentative agreement now calling for 175 full school days and six half-days starting with this school year, the board on Tuesday also gave schools chief Jean-Claude Brizard the authority to change the calendar this year and work with teachers to determine the seven makeup days from the strike.--------Prior to the deal being struck (9/17):There will be 10 more days of school going forward, bringing CPS up to 180 days of instruction. That is the state minimum. Previously, Chicago got a waiver from the state.---------So Chicago students will still get 5 days less instruction than the required state minimum. I won't comment on the salary increases that are baked in over the next three years.I will state that if this strike REALLY was about education, then no one, not the teachers, not the unions, not the schools, not the Mayor, and not the parents, would have to settle for a contract for anything less than 180 days of instruction - like all other Illinois schools.Can anyone defend five days less instruction for Chicago students than for students from Springfield?http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/education/ct-met-cps-boar...
Best Of |
Favorites & Replies |
Start a New Board |
My Fool |
BATS data provided in real-time. NYSE, NASDAQ and NYSEMKT data delayed 15 minutes.
Real-Time prices provided by BATS. Market data provided by Interactive Data.
Company fundamental data provided by Morningstar. Earnings Estimates, Analys