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Author: IndecisiveFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 88986  
Subject: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 11:17 AM
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Bogey,

It has come to my attention that you have permanently banned sofaking6. I think it is a rash decision on your part. Yes, 6 can be a pain in the tushy at times, but she has contributed greatly to TMF over the years. I would not be surprised that many Fools decided to extend their memberships in February due to her presence on these boards.

Recently, you said "We almost never remove someone completely unless we believe they are being so disruptive to the community ecosystem that we're better off as a business and a community with them not here". IMHO, I have not seen anything that would be classified "so disruptive". There have been claims back and forth about private emails and their contents. You have stated before that none of us know the whole story since we don't see every post or private responses to TMF. It is possible you don't know the whole story if those private emails have not been sent to you. It would be prudent to look into this situation further before you permanently ban someone from these boards. IMHO, the current evidence on the boards show that you are wrong.

If anyone should be banned, it should be the person who developed the rec system and accompanying charms. These rating tools have caused more disruption than sofaking6 could cause in a lifetime. Another longtime poster, reallyalldone, made an excellent observation yesterday that you may want to heed. She said "People are jockeying so much to be noticed that any sense of conversation is gone."

IF
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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38085 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 11:40 AM
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If anyone should be banned, it should be the person who developed the rec system and accompanying charms.

an excellent suggestion...

Another longtime poster, reallyalldone, made an excellent observation yesterday that you may want to heed. She said "People are
jockeying so much to be noticed that any sense of conversation is gone."


though i think the $100 causes at least as much competetive jockeying
as the Charms.
(and suspect that's exactly the intent of both)



-j

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Author: JimiH3ndrix Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38086 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 11:55 AM
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You know, I thought that the recent interminable running verbal gunfight was the lamest thing I had seen on the Fool thus far.

But this TMFTermination makes that confrontation seem downright sensible.

Nice work.

"You don't have all the information/We don't discuss terminations."

Of course you don't, because it provides an impenetrable veil.

You want to create a "community." Yet you kill some of its favorite participants without feeling any need to explain or justify.

That's not very communitarian of you.

Bravo. Again, nice work. Way to have handled this situation from the get-go.

TMFJustice is not only blind, but deaf and stupid as well,

Jimi

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Author: warizill Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38088 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 12:08 PM
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If anyone should be banned, it should be the person who developed the rec system and accompanying charms. These rating tools have caused more disruption than sofaking6 could cause in a lifetime. Another longtime poster, reallyalldone, made an excellent observation yesterday that you may want to heed. She said "People are jockeying so much to be noticed that any sense of conversation is gone."

I don't think that anyone should be banned. Keep recs, dump the crowns? Maybe. But we need to stop complaining about it and figure out a system that works.

Put yourself in Bogey and co's shoes. They're sick of all the complaints they're getting. They are frustrated. When people are frustrated, they make some bad decisions. And a looooooot of people have been complaining, and Bogey has specifically been in the middle of a serious *&%$storm. I never thought I'd say this, but I can really sympathize with his position. I don't think banning people is the solution, and I think they will realize that, sooner or later.

We need to allow people a forum to express their differences, but remain civil. That means no threats, no complaints, no nastiness. Examine the facts, and think about your actions. Everyone involved thinks the other people are getting the advantage, man that's gotta be hard for the Fools.

The boards are worth fighting for. But only if there is some semblance of community. There are other solutions to banning people, but they take time.

FTR, an us against them attitude is counterproductive and will lead to strengthening of the very resolves we seek to oppose. The Fools have a damn good product here, it's our job to maintain it.


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Author: GolightlyCat Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38089 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 12:13 PM
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And a looooooot of people have been complaining, and Bogey has specifically been in the middle of a serious *&%$storm. I never thought I'd say this, but I can really sympathize with his position. I

And one person has been singled out. As much as I have disagreed with 6 in the past I do not think that she deserves to be banned - especially as others haven't.

You can't have one rule for one and another for others. Especially when the others have used intimidation before and driven people away.



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Author: warizill Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38091 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 12:18 PM
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You can't have one rule for one and another for others. Especially when the others have used intimidation before and driven people away.


I completely agree, but understanding their position and agreeing with it are two different things.

I'm just worried about bringing six back and avoiding anything counterproductive. I watched Mort get banned permanently because of an us against them attitude. I didn't know him, but I know six.



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Author: TheSilentType Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38092 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 12:19 PM
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<The Fools have a damn good product here, it's our job to maintain it.>

I respectfully disagree. They have (or I'm beginning to believe more--had) a great concept.

If the users have any job at all, it's to point out to the Emperor when he has no clothes. Unfortunately, only certain courtiers are afforded that privilege without risk of banishment from the realm

Under that present model, I don't see how the Fool will ever improve


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Author: Sarcasman Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38093 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 12:21 PM
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Waiting to hear of JPS ban as well, he also kept it going

There's no reason to ban jps. He has chosen not to post here anymore. I read that on a message board so it must be true.

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Author: THNeufness Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38094 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 12:26 PM
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He has chosen not to post here anymore. I read that on a message board so it must be true.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that, it was here wasn't it?

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=17604311
on Date: 7/30/02 3:37 AM

Followed by:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=17667238
on Date: 8/10/02 8:42 AM

And three others since then, he lasted a whole 10 days this time, is that a record for him?

THÑeufness
Bring back 6 or ban jps as well, fair is fair





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Author: warizill Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38095 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 12:36 PM
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And three others since then, he lasted a whole 10 days this time, is that a record for him?



My all time favorite fool, Datasnooper, said GBF and came back. Datasnooper. Now, (s)he had a REAL problem getting along with people! Her/His situation was a little more severe...

People get frustrated.

I have to reitirate that the best solution to bringing back 6 may not be criticizing Bogey. I know that isn't a popular opinion, but it's a smart one.



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Author: dcardno Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38106 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 1:13 PM
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JimiH3endrix:

"TMFJustice is not only blind, but deaf and stupid as well..."

Jimi - I believe that what you meant to say was "TMFJustice is not only blind, but deaf and stupid as hell..."

Cheers,

Dean



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Author: buy2win Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38112 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 1:29 PM
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It has come to my attention that you have permanently banned sofaking6. I think it is a rash decision on your part. Yes, 6 can be a pain in the tushy at times, but she has contributed greatly to TMF over the years.

I want to add that I have always enjoyed sofaking6's salty style. Always quick to respond in a clever and humorous way (unless you happen to be the target of her humor). Absolutely genuine. What you see is what you get.

I will miss her and I do feel that her banishment has subtracted in a substantial manner from the enjoyment I have experienced on the TMF boards.

b2w


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Author: Kestral Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38145 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 3:49 PM
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If the fundamentals of the economy weren't so crappy, I'd take all this Motley Fool in-fighting as a sign of the mother of all stock market bottoms.

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Author: InvestorGrrl Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38172 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 5:55 PM
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If anyone should be banned, it should be the person who developed the rec system and accompanying charms.

Indeed. When the Fool made the push toward a "cult of personality" they awarded complimentary memberships to people who had posted a certain minimum of posts within a recent period, and to people who had a high recs-to-posts ratio. Now there's a cult of personality demonstration currently underway on ITF. Ironically people who have been comped EXACTLY SIX MONTHS AGO are leaving, either of their will or the TMF will (determination of not heeding Terms of Service agreement).

Be careful of what you ask for: you might very well get it.

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Author: stephan1000 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38174 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 6:18 PM
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War just earned himself $20.
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=17678839



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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38175 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/13/2002 6:39 PM
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War just earned himself $20.

I'm pretty sure that War would much rather that 6 was unbanned.

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Author: AGlupOfWax6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38218 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 10:53 AM
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I am emailing this to Tom/Dave to see if they care about their customers. They don't seem to care enough to comment, but maybe they don't visit their site enough to know what the customers are thinking.

Tom and Dave,

Please take a look at the top recommended posts for the last 24 hours.
http://boards.fool.com/BestOf.asp?topwhat=rec

Then please give us your take on the situation. I realize you will probably need to take an hour or two to review the situation with your lackeys before responding. I really want to know if TMF management supports this slap in the face of your customers. Take a couple of hours then post your opinion on the banning of one of the most popular contributors to your site. Do you agree with banning one of the people who has added great value to YOUR business at almost no cost to you?

While you are reviewing things, take a look at the "Top Favorite Fools"
http://boards.fool.com/BestOf.asp?topwhat=fav
Who is that at 19 (if she hasn't already moved higher up the list with this fiasco)? Oh, it's the banned 6.

How about the "Top recommended Fools"
http://boards.fool.com/BestOf.asp?topwhat=rat
Oh, she's number 10 there.

Do you really want to ban someone who is this important to this many of your customers? Inquiring minds want to know?

davidg@fool.com
tomg@fool.com

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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38224 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 11:34 AM
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Hi AGlupOfWax6,

sorry if I interfere with a discussion on a subject I don't understand too much of.
But one thing I have learned on message boards is that you should be polite, always.

What's the point when you write:

Then please give us your take on the situation. I realize you will probably need to take an hour or two to review the situation with your lackeys before responding.

Why do you offend those working at TMF as lackeys?
Do you think that paying 30$ for your suscription has entitled you to do so? I'd be ashamed if I offended people only for doing their job. I've been working as a Cab-driver many years. I know what it means being offended while working. You are very wrong if you believe that for taking a 2$'s ride you bought my Cab.

Do you really believe you'll get a faster reply that way?
If I were the Gardner Brothers, if only for loyalty with my employees, I certainly wouldn't answer to such an e-mail.

Really interested in your thoughts on that.

If you want to improve TMF, start by yourself and be kind and polite to others.

Abe

(Back to lurking mode)

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Author: AGlupOfWax6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38229 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 11:40 AM
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Why do you offend those working at TMF as lackeys?
Do you think that paying 30$ for your suscription has entitled you to do so? I'd be ashamed if I offended people only for doing their job. I've been working as a Cab-driver many years. I know what it means being offended while working. You are very wrong if you believe that for taking a 2$'s ride you bought my Cab.


You are right. I should have been more 'civil'. Sorry about that, but I am really pissed off and am actually using far more civil language than I'd like.


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Author: AGlupOfWax6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38276 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 3:09 PM
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Here's David's response to my request for his opinion. Basically a non-answer.

Glup,

I certainly trust my staff, some of the smartest people ever found in our
community -- and some of the best people I know -- to make good decisions,
here. I am not aware of the particulars of this situation, but hope everyone
will be understanding and will realize that Fool Community is something very
special, allowing freedoms that also come with responsibilities.

Very best,

David Gardner

-Original Message-
Subject: The Motley Fool Discussion Boards - Reply to a Message

AGlupOfWax6 replied to a message by IndecisiveFool at
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=17679559
and opted to have a copy e-mailed to you.

Subject: Re: Stupid Decision

I am emailing this to Tom/Dave to see if they care about their
customers.
They don't seem to care enough to comment, but maybe they don't visit
their site enough to know what the customers are thinking.

Tom and Dave,

Please take a look at the top recommended posts for the last 24 hours.
http://boards.fool.com/BestOf.asp?topwhat=rec

Then please give us your take on the situation. I realize you will
probably need to take an hour or two to review the situation with your
lackeys before responding. I really want to know if TMF management
supports this slap in the face of your customers. Take a couple of
hours
then post your opinion on the banning of one of the most popular
contributors to your site. Do you agree with banning one of the people
who has added great value to YOUR business at almost no cost to you?

While you are reviewing things, take a look at the "Top Favorite Fools"
http://boards.fool.com/BestOf.asp?topwhat=fav
Who is that at 19 (if she hasn't already moved higher up the list with
this fiasco)? Oh, it's the banned 6.

How about the "Top recommended Fools"
http://boards.fool.com/BestOf.asp?topwhat=rat
Oh, she's number 10 there.

Do you really want to ban someone who is this important to this many of
your customers? Inquiring minds want to know?

davidg@fool.com
tomg@fool.com


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Author: AGlupOfWax6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38278 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 3:18 PM
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Glup,

I certainly trust my staff, some of the smartest people ever found in our
community -- and some of the best people I know -- to make good decisions,
here. I am not aware of the particulars of this situation, but hope everyone
will be understanding and will realize that Fool Community is something very
special, allowing freedoms that also come with responsibilities.

Very best,

David Gardner



BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


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Author: Anigma Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38279 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 3:26 PM
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I certainly trust my staff, some of the smartest people ever found in our
community
-- and some of the best people I know -- to make good decisions,
here. I am not aware of the particulars of this situation, but hope everyone
will be understanding and will realize that Fool Community is something very
special, allowing freedoms that also come with responsibilities.

Very best,

David Gardner


Uh oh. I think I may have bitten off more than I can chew.

Anigma

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38283 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 3:43 PM
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Here's David's response to my request for his opinion. Basically a non-answer.

--------

Well going over the head of decision makers puts everyone in a difficult spot. Putting the Gardners in the position of second guessing there staff is not the way to get Lisa back. If he overruled his staff, why would he need them at all?

And if something went wrong after he overruled them, he would be to blame for micromanaging, not them. Whenever my bosses tell me how to do my job, I always invite them to do it for me. They usually back off at that point.

At this point we are waiting with baited breath to see if the decision makers will try another approach.

I'm hopeful. It makes good business sense to bring back 6, and I think they will.

Dov6

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Author: jh21045 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38286 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 4:13 PM
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Well going over the head of decision makers puts everyone in a difficult spot. Putting the Gardners in the position of second-guessing their staff is not the way to get Lisa back. If he overruled his staff, why would he need them at all?

I have to agree. I thought long and hard about sending an email to one of the Gs, but seriously what are you gonna ask? "Hi. We've never met, but we've emailed a couple times and talked college hoops. Would you please on my say-so overrule the decision of someone you vetted and hired to oversee the operation of the discussion boards? And would you do it in a sufficiently public way that it sets a precedent so everyone in the future when they disagree with something will bypass your chosen representative and approach you directly?"

Nope, that wasn't the way to go. Bogey's your man: work with him.


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Author: AGlupOfWax6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38296 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 4:23 PM
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Well going over the head of decision makers puts everyone in a difficult spot. Putting the Gardners in the position of second-guessing their staff is not the way to get Lisa back. If he overruled his staff, why would he need them at all?

Actually one of the best ways to get service I have found is to "take it to the top". There has been more than one occasion when I was given the run around by a lower level lackey at unnamed companies. A letter to the president of the company often leads to positive results. I agree that publicly, he may need to support his staff, but often the head of a company doesn't know what the peons are doing unless someone brings it to their attention. TMF has a major customer service and public relations issue here and the heads of the company need to know about it and they need to respond in some manner. If they choose to remain silent they are speaking volumes. Another company that doesn't care? I used to think TMF was different.


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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38306 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 4:39 PM
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AGlupOfWax6 Date: 8/14/02 4:23 PM Number: 38296

Actually one of the best ways to get service I have found is to "take it to the top".
---------------------

Here's a good example from the CC board (sorry for the cross-post)

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=17687540

Long story short: Unauthorized charges added to a credit card after sale was final. Upper management corrected problem. Going "to the top" is sometimes necessary.

Rich

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38310 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/14/2002 4:48 PM
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Glup,

We are not helping bring Lisa back by calling those who are decision makers lackeys or peons. And hair splitting over whether it is right to go over someones head doesn't help either, imo. The results are pretty predictable, it seems to me.

Many of us have stated our feelings to the decision makers. Whether we believe they made a mistake or not, I trust their sincerity. I just disagree with their decision.

And I am still willing to wait patiently for a reversal.

So, decision makers, we await your decision. Please make it a good one.

Respectfully,

dovbaer6

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Author: frissy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38363 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/15/2002 12:59 AM
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I want to add that I have always enjoyed sofaking6's salty style. Always quick to respond in a clever and humorous way (unless you happen to be the target of her humor). Absolutely genuine. What you see is what you get.

Oh, hell, I've been the target of her barbs, and I almost always give her a rec when I see one of them.

They're good.

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Author: frissy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38365 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/15/2002 1:02 AM
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He should run for senate....



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Author: jiml8 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38663 of 88986
Subject: Re: Stupid Decision Date: 8/17/2002 1:02 AM
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It is possible you don't know the whole story if those private emails have not been sent to you. It would be prudent to look into this situation further before you permanently ban someone from these boards. IMHO, the current evidence on the boards show that you are wrong.

IMHO the action was too slow coming. There is a lot that goes on that gets pulled from the boards. Any email that goes through TMF is accessible to TMF staff.

TMF is a better place 6-less.



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