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Author: bookgrrl Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Winner! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 2281  
Subject: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 11:36 AM
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Parkway wrote:
Or are you just completeting this cycle because you had already started it at the time the RE recommended the IVF with preimplantation genetic testing?

Well, that was the plan, since the RE told me about PGD after we had already completed the CLomid cycle and the IUI. But it turns out that I'm pregnant. I tested positive on a HPT on Monday, then yesterday had my beta hCG checked - it was 1379 (at Day 19 post-ovulation, and Day 18 post-IUI).

We are completely dumbfounded. There's no way the IUI got me pregnant, since they made a mistake and inseminated me one day *after* I ovulated. (They had estimated, via the size of the follicles, that after the hCG shot, I'd ovulate in 2 days - but they were wrong, I ovulated the next day, so the IUI was too late). That fact, combined with my low progesterone level of 7 on Day 7 post-IUI, convinced us that there was no way Round 1 worked, so I began to prepare for the PGD.

I'm shocked and somewhat distressed about this. In our conversation a couple of weeks ago, my RE told me flat out that if I got pregnant on Clomid, I would miscarry (which is why he switched us to IVF with PGD). At this point, I'm just waiting for the miscarriage to happen. In the meantime, I'm afraid that this will bump me off the IVF waiting list (I'm scheduled to go in late August/September). I'm literally calculating the latest possible date I can have the D&C and still make a September IVF cycle.

For some reason, the doc's office doesn't want to repeat my beta (they're probably thinking there's no way I'll keep the pregnancy?). Instead, they've scheduled me for an ultrasound next Wednesday. I don't know what that can tell me, other than (1) is it a blighted ovum, and (2) is it an ectopic pregnancy. I've had lots of cramping, but no bleeding (yet).

I just want to get this over with quickly. I'm still adjusting to the news. How bad does life suck when you're just hoping that you miscarry early and at home?

BG
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Author: mrsDJB Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 571 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 11:41 AM
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((Bookgrrl))

I don't know what to do but pray. Is there any chance you can carry this pregnancy to term? I will pray for your comfort and peace of mind.

I'm so sorry that a time that should be filled with joy is something entirely different for you.

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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 572 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 11:45 AM
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There's no way the IUI got me pregnant, since they made a mistake and inseminated me one day *after* I ovulated.
I don't believe this is true. The eggs can live for a short time, and the sperm can live for a couple of days, so it is possible that you did conceive via the IUI.

I'm shocked and somewhat distressed about this. In our conversation a couple of weeks ago, my RE told me flat out that if I got pregnant on Clomid, I would miscarry (which is why he switched us to IVF with PGD).

Did the RE give you a reason? Seems to me that you have low progesterone, so are you taking supplemental progesterone? You'd need that to support the pregnancy. And just because the RE said you will miscarry, it doesn't always work like that, so as they say, plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Remember that the doctor can only quote you general statistics, so even if the RE said you only have a 15-20% chance of not miscarrying, someone has to be in those statistics. I do remember that when I conceived my twins via GIFT, the success rate ws just under 30%, yet we managed to conceive and deliver on the first attempt.

And my son, who is now 12, only had a 10-15% chance of surviving infancy due to all the complications from the prematurity. He's here, happy, and healthy, so maybe your odds of not miscarrying are low, but I would think they at least exist.


For some reason, the doc's office doesn't want to repeat my beta (they're probably thinking there's no way I'll keep the pregnancy?). Instead, they've scheduled me for an ultrasound next Wednesday. I don't know what that can tell me, other than (1) is it a blighted ovum, and (2) is it an ectopic pregnancy. I've had lots of cramping, but no bleeding (yet).


Cramping is generally associated with implantation, and can be a good sign. I distinctly remember cramping a couple of days before my period was due at the end of the GIFT cycle in which we conceived my twins. I told DH that I recognized those cramps, and I was depressed for two days while I waited for the inevitable - but it never came. He still teases me about that statement.

And by my rough calculations, next week would be about 6 weeks for you, so they may be looking for a heartbeat to see if it is viable.

It may not happen this time, but I don't believe you'd said anything that says it absolutely won't. I will keep my fingers crossed and say an extra prayer that this works out. If not, at least you have a plan for what the next steps are. I always found having a plan to be helpful as it made me feel more in control.

Best of luck to you, and please keep us posted.


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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 573 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 11:48 AM
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I'm shocked and somewhat distressed about this. In our conversation a couple of weeks ago, my RE told me flat out that if I got pregnant on Clomid, I would miscarry

I don't understand this. What was the point of putting you on the progesterone if he was sure you couldn't keep the pregnancy? Maybe he meant without the progesterone? I mean, is there really no chance that even though this egg hasn't been inspected by the RE, it's OK? He didn't tell you you needed to use birth control? I would expect him to if he really didn't think there was a possibility it would be a healthy pregnancy. Is there any chance there might be room to be hopeful?


How bad does life suck when you're just hoping that you miscarry early and at home?

{{{bookgrrl}}}

Pretty bad. I'm so sorry. I wish there was something, anything, we could do.


Jan

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Author: bookgrrl Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Winner! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 574 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 11:53 AM
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Did the RE give you a reason? Seems to me that you have low progesterone, so are you taking supplemental progesterone?

Yes, I'm on progesterone suppositories. The reason he thinks I'll miscarry is because he thinks that my eggs are of poor quality, at least when compared to other women my age. He told me that there is a very high likelihood that my eggs will continue to split incorrectly, and hence that any resulting embryos will be chromosomally abnormal (thus leading to nonviable pregnancies and miscarriage). In his words, the only way that he can "control the quality of the embryo" is via pre-implantation genetic diagnosis (PGD) prior to an IVF transfer. The genetics specialist told us that we may go through IVF with PGD and end up with *no* viable embryos, but that it was our best shot. If IVF with PGD doesn't work, we could also consider donor egg IVF.

I'm just so exhausted by all this.

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Author: wrnglrjan Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 575 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 12:01 PM
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I'm just so exhausted by all this.

Oh, sweetie, I know just what you mean. I know, you're never supposed to say that to somebody, but I really think I do.


It's a deep down dead-dog bone tired - mentally, physically and emotionally. This is what I felt after the second miscarriage.


Just keep on keepin' on, bookgrrl. That's all you can do. Let some other stuff go if you can, and let that nice husband of yours pamper you a little.



I'm still not seeing anything, btw, that makes it impossible that this is a healthy pregnancy. I understand the PGD improves the odds, but they don't actually do anything to improve the eggs, right? So maybe (maybe maybe maybe ... fingers crossed) this is a good one.

If I were you, hoping for that would feel way too fragile. But how about if we hope for you, huh? Can we do that?


Jan

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Author: asentie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 576 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 12:27 PM
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Oh, bookgrrl... I wish I knew what to say, how to make you feel better. How is it that you're the one of us with the best words and we all wish we had some of our own to share with you?

I don't know what to tell you except for hoping that the odds, however slim they are, work in your favor. I remember when I took my triple scan while pregnant with my son and it came back a 1 in 4 chance of abnormality, according to the hormone levels. False "positives" like that are exceptionally high but I didn't know that at the time and spent quite a while agonizing over the results and what they meant.

...fortunately, it turned out to be a combination of factors that caused what appeared to be the abnormalities, and everything turned out okay, but for a few days I just sat and cried.

If I remember correctly, eggs live for about 48 hours after ovulation and sperm for 72, so it's entirely possible that the IUI was what did it.

It's good that you're on the supplemental progesterone, it should maximize your chances.

What I would probably do, in your situation, is call your RE back and have a very honest conversation on what the next steps are. I would ask how soon you'd be able to tell if there is an abnormality associated with this pregnancy and what that meant to you... I'd be honest about your fears about this bumping your IVF chances and let him know how you're feeling.

Then I'd ask what the next steps are, and how soon you can find out about them. If the answer is that you WILL miscarry, without a doubt, then perhaps ask him if you can proactively schedule the D&C.

I don't know what to say... I personally am a complete control freak and half of what drives me crazy about this process is the waiting - and waiting, and waiting. I need to feel like I'm DOING something and this whole concept doesn't allow for much of that.

Tons of hugs and good thoughts for you... keep us posted.

Alison

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Author: bookgrrl Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Winner! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 577 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 12:39 PM
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I understand the PGD improves the odds, but they don't actually do anything to improve the eggs, right?

I think that's right - they just screen the embryos for chromosomal abnormalities, and then only transfer the "normal" ones (if there are any). When my RE explained it to me, he helpfully noted that with my eggs, if I were, say, 41, the only option available to me would be donor egg IVF, but that given my current age, there's still a chance - a small chance, but a chance - that they might be able to "find" a good egg somewhere in there.

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Author: TeacherH Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 578 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 2:18 PM
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We are completely dumbfounded. There's no way the IUI got me pregnant, since they made a mistake and inseminated me one day *after* I ovulated.

That's what is funny about this pregnancy for me, too. Even though I wasn't expecting to get pregnant, we didn't have sex close to ovulation because we have plans for a family trip to Kauai at Christmas. We didn't have sex until 2 days after ovulation. And got pregnant anyway, when we didn't get pregnant after all those times of "perfect timing". Makes me really scratch my head.

For you, I wish a speedy resolution to this crisis. And a small celebration that you can still get pregnant, which after all is something important to know.

I'll be thinking of you!

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Author: txskygal Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 579 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 2:33 PM
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{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ BOOKGRRL }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I literally gasped out loud when I read your post. I don't know the right words. I believe in miracles, and believe you me, I'll be praying for all I'm worth that this is a miracle meant for you and your DH. I, personally, don't always believe the doctors when they say "It's ALWAYS going to be this way (as in a miscarriage). Do you think you may be able to give it a little time to see if it's viable?
No matter WHAT happens; WE'RE ON YOUR SIDE!!! Let us know what we can do to help you. I love the family that we've grown, here; and how much love and understanding we've shown each other through all the different issues, we've had here.
I'm praying for peace to come upon you, also.

Cheri

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Author: Parkway Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 580 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/28/2003 4:46 PM
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Oh grrl, how upsetting! I wondered if you might be pregnant when you said you were tired and nauseous and crampy, and I wasn't sure whether that would be a good or a bad thing. It would be wonderful if this turned out to be a viable pregnancy (and it sounds like that is a possibility), but how terrible if you go through another pregnancy loss.

I would hope that the RE can at least alleviate your worries about being bumped from the IVF waiting list.

If the RE really thought it was 100% certain that you would miscarry a pregnancy, I don't think he would have put you on progesterone - why would they support and extend a non-viable pregnancy, after all. But I know that waiting (and waiting...) to see if the pregnancy is viable will be wrenching, especially given the RE's initial assessment. Anyway, I hunted around a bit, and it looks like they can use a chorionic villus sampling (CVS) test to check for chromisomal problems at 8 weeks or so (I assume 8 weeks LMP?). You're almost at five weeks, so you might be able to get more definitive information about the pregnancy's viability relatively soon. Here's some summary info from WebMD:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/51/40798


- Parkway, sending hugs and strength your way




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Author: MakePigsFly Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 581 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/29/2003 12:57 PM
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(((((((((Bookgrrl))))))))))

I can't stop thinking about you and about the really difficult time you are going through. I want to send words of encouragement and hope and yet if I were in your shoes I would want stay as distant and guarded about my pregnancy as you are. It just hurts my heart to think of you suffering so much dread and frustration.

So here's the thing I can't stop thinking. Your RE suspects that a majority of your eggs are abnormal - "suspects" being the key word. What he wants to do is get a bunch of them to mature, harvest them and then test them for genetic integrity. Your paraphrase of what he said is that it is a quality control issue - the only way he can be SURE that you have a good embryo is to screen it. That's true for all people at some level but in your case, statistically, it is more likely you will have an unhealthy embryo. It seems that the supposition is that you might be lucky to have a good egg or two. I can't help wondering why his prediction is so dire. Is it possible that you have a bunch of good eggs, too? Does he have some statistics about DES daughters to back up his perspective? This egg is suspect because it hasn't been examined but does that mean a priori that it is 'bad'? I don't know. It just seems like your RE is walking around with a hammer so everything looks like a nail. I know you have a history of miscarriage which contributes to this but I'm still wondering just exactly what the RE is basing his position on.

He has also set you up to have visions of a well managed pregnancy. One where you know the condition of the embryo, where implantation is carefully managed and where you have a high degree of likelihood of success. I know you want that and I understand completely. Another miscarriage is more than you care the bear (I won't say you can't bear it because I know you can - you just shouldn't have to). This pregnancy feels like it is both doomed to fail and that it is getting in the way of the certain path to success and so you are distressed and just sort of want it to go away. All perfectly understandable.

I'm thinking of you and wishing that your pregnancy is a miracle, not a roadblock. You wrote a really beautiful piece after your last miscarriage about making choices in how to view the world when you feel like just curling up in a ball and wishing it to go away. Here are some rest stops on this bumpy road you are on that you can maybe use to help you walk from point A to point B. Wednesday you will have an ultrasound which may or may not reveal a problem with this pregnancy. If it does not reveal a problem I assume you will wait things out. At 8 - 10 weeks you can have CVS which will tell you if the embryo is healthy or not. I hope that in between these points you can keep yourself from sinking too far into despair.

You know you have a whole Red Tent full of women who are here to help you through this and lift your burdens as much as we can.

Hugs and love,
P.

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Author: MainiacJoe Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 582 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/29/2003 10:53 PM
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BG,

People often say that Job's friends weren't very good friends, but I've learned in these past few months that they were the very best friends for that first week, until they opened their mouth! So perhaps like they were, I feel shellshocked into silence by the enormity of your situation and our inadequacy as friends and humans in the face of it. So: I'm here, I care, you aren't alone, and that's all there is to say.

- Joe

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Author: heathrita One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 583 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/30/2003 9:12 AM
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*hugs*

I'm hoping for a miracle for you here. You've done such amazing things for others - you deserve happiness.

Lots of caring,
Heather

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Author: MakePigsFly Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 584 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/30/2003 9:16 PM
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You know you have a whole Red Tent full of women who are here to help you through this and lift your burdens as much as we can.

revision - You know you have a whole Red Tent full of women and one really terrific man who are here to help you through this and lift your burdens as much as we can.

Sorry Joe - didn't mean to leave you out! You are a gem and I'm sure that Ruth herself would have let you into the Red Tent.

P.



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Author: txskygal Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 585 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/30/2003 9:36 PM
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Errrrrr, what's the "Red Tent", please?

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Author: MakePigsFly Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 586 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/30/2003 10:11 PM
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There is a book by Anita Diamant that describes Biblical history from the perspective of Dinah, an under represented character from the Old Testament. Dinah is the daughter of Jacob a man who had 4 wives and many children including 12 sons, one of whom was Joseph. At some level this makes Dinah Jesus' virtual aunt, right? (that was irrelevant - it just popped into my head and yes, I'm a lousy Christian because a good Christian knows that Jesus is the son of God, not Joseph).

Anyhow, back to the book... The Red Tent is the female sanctuary where women go when they are menstruating and where they carry out various female rituals and rights of passage and help each other through childbirth and through illness.

Truth be told I remember almost nothing about the book but it is an interesting read and the thing that struck me most was how uplifted I felt when she was writing about things that happened inside the tent. The women of Biblical times did not have very happy lives and yet they managed to find a lot of joy being with each other.

P.
who meant that Dinah, not Ruth, would let Joe in the tent.

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Author: MainiacJoe Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 587 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/31/2003 12:58 AM
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As the owner of the only Y-chromosome around here I appreciate your acceptance of me into this community. Please, for simplicity if nothing else, don't go to the trouble of saying, "and Joe" continually for fear that I will be offended if you don't explicitly acknowledge me. Bookgrrl calls me the "honorary sister" and women I've told about my involvement on this board say that's a compliment so I'll take it and others you've sent my way and be grateful at how much God has changed me from the scumbag Alethea married seven years ago last Sunday (see, I've gotten to where I remember). Yeah, I skip a few gyn threads, but what do you expect, and would you realy want my input? The emotional aspects of infertility cross gender lines, although they certainly don't affect each gender in the same way, and it is in this area I have found this board to be a singularly helpful resource. I have learned a lot from you all about how Alethea is reacting to our fertility struggles, and occasionaly see myself in you as well. I hope too that I can be a resource for you in how your husbands are responding and help you understand them.

With that in mind, let me talk about something that I've been learning again for the first time: men compartmentalize their experiences, whereas women assimilate their experiences. This means that I have a Caleb box, a infertility box, an emotional caregiver box, a relationship with this couple box, a job box, a hobby box, etc. When I move from one role to another I leave the emotions and thoughts for one role in its box and they may or may not affect the other boxes, usually not. I can literally forget what I was feeling about one thing if I get involved about another thing, until I go back to that first box and pick up where I left off. I'll say it again, this is an essential concept in interacting with your man: I go to work, and for 9 hours I'll be lucky if I even remember that I had a son die or that we might never have kids, unless I strike up a conversation with someone that brings it up, then it's like, "Oh, yeah" and I remember it, drop the job box, pick up that box, and go with it--and then I forget what job-related thing brought me to that office! So ladies, you think about this crap every 5 minutes or more often and it tears you up, and your hubby can go a whole day and never think about it once--yet he does care about it and is grieved by it too. In tech-speak, he is incapable of multi-tasking emotions, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have them.

Now that's the easy explanation, at least for me, because it's me. Here is how it appears to me that that Alethea reacts: everything that happens goes into one big stew pot. One bad ingredient can ruin the whole stew; in the same way when a bad event happens in her life it affects everything, even things that to me (either logically or merely from the compartmentalization viewpoint) have absolutely nothing to do with each other. For instance: we had a half-hour conversation recently about how Caleb's death was affecting her sex drive. On the one hand it was an extremely fruitful conversation, because I became aware of the reasons for some of the things I'd been noticing and learned some ways that I could act accordingly, yet on the other hand it was a completely fruitless conversation because I was more baffled at the end of the half-hour than I was at the beginning.

I never understood why she reacted this way, but it was sufficient to know that she was reacting this way and to learn from her the best way to respond accordingly. Sacrificing my innate male "need to understand first" increased oneness between us, whereas demanding an explanation in my terms would have only harmed oneness. The quality of oneness in a marriage is I believe the key factor in determining whether a crisis such as infertility is going to break the marriage or make it stronger. It is well worth sacrificing one's perceived rights and conveniences for one's spouse since service to one another is the currency that purchases this precious commodity.

There are advantages to each gender's wiring that can be strategically utilized for a succesful response as a couple to the situation. For instance, I take on the responsibility of interacting with people who have been insensitive in the past or with people such as insurance companies that bring back painful memories because I can file that experience in the "jerks" or "sad reminders" box and forget about it until the next time, thereby protecting Alethea from what would be enduring and encompassing pain. She on the other hand has had many insights into why we or others feel and react the way we do that I would have never seen. She is processing our experience wholistically, and this has enabled me to change my behavior and attitudes for the better in ways I would have been completely incapable of without her.

Bottom line: Compartmentalization/assimilation is one way that understanding gender differences has helped Alethea and I respond positively to this ordeal. I can definitely say that our marriage is much stronger now than it was a year or even six months ago and this is one of the reasons why - and she agrees with me so I know I'm not just fooling myself. If you are ever wondering why your hubby is acting the way he is, please ask, I'll be glad to say what I can. Rants about that insensitive #$^%$@ are okay, too, I won't be offended because I've done my share of it and more. You'll be doing me a favor even, since writing a post like this forces me to put concepts into words and I end up teaching myself about myself.

- Joe

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Author: MainiacJoe Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 588 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/31/2003 12:59 AM
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(OT alert)

Concerning the Dinah being Jesus' aunt stuff: if you look at the two geneaologies in Matthew 1 and in Luke 3, you note diferences. Like all geneaologies in the Bible, these are crafted to help the author's purpose for the book. In the case of Matthew, who is writing to Jews to defend the claim that Jesus is the Messiah, he gives the geneaology from Abraham to Joseph, the legal father of Jesus from the human perspective. By crafting the geneaology to show Jesus' membership in the kingly line of David from which Messaih would come, it becomes one of several pieces of evidence Matthew gives that Jesus is the Messiah. Luke on the other hand is writing to philosophically-minded Greeks and chooses to present Jesus as the perfect Man, not only perfect in conduct but also in fulfilling of human potential and of God's purposes for creating humans. It is therefore not surprising that his geneaology is from Adam to Mary, and his purpose for it is to demonstrate Jesus' humanity.

One response I do want to make is to say is that you should not think of yourself as a "lousy Christian" because you didn't phrase something in the TC (theologically correct) way. Jesus' simultaneous humanity and divinity is not a simple doctrine to understand, heck, it is impossible to understand. Like quantum mechanics, it seems too bizarre and logically contradictory to be true but is undeniably inferred from the evidence (biblical in this case instead of observational). When the physicists saw electrons behaving in those weird impossible ways, their first thought was that the data must be wrong, and it was only after they very reluctantly concluded that the evidence really was accurate that they were forced to accept that the impossible was true. In the same way, the Bible does teach many impossible doctrines, and one must decide for themselves if it can be trusted in spite of this. If one does conclude that the Bible is truth, then one is forced into a set of doctrines that offends the mind and tramples logic. Is Caleb's death an evil thing? Undeniably. Is God good and loving? I cannot begin to list all the ways that he has shown us his goodness these past few months. Is God powerful? Again, he has demonstrated to us many times that he is a real person who can make a real difference in this world, including physical healing. So why the hell didn't he prevent Caleb from dying? I believe that I will never know why. That is an offense to the mind, but trusting him in spite of that offense (which is different than turning off my brain) has been healing to our spirits and just as our marriage relationship has grown through this crisis our relationship with God has also grown greatly.

Of course, someone will eventually figure out quantum mechanics, but no one will ever figure out God. Why then do we create spiritual litmus tests for each other's and our own phraseology? Our participation on this board is evidence that we have more important things to worry about than whether we can parrot the "right" one of several inadequate phrases, in fact worrying excessively about it gets in the way of an honest realtionship with God because it misrepresents both our capabilities and his expectations. I believe in absolute truth, please don't misunderstand me, but I also believe that much of this truth is beyond our grasp and so we must give grace to each other and to ourselves.

- Joe

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Author: MakePigsFly Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 590 of 2281
Subject: Re: Surprise Date: 5/31/2003 6:24 PM
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Not to get too OT but first of all thanks for the window into a man's mind. Nicely done!

Second of all, I was just sort of being cheeky about Dinah and Jesus. I really am a lousy Christian because my "Christian" upbringing was nominal at best. I barely know the stories. I was reading off the inside of "The Red Tent" to get the geneology - I had no idea!

Thanks for the education.

P.


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