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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 455523  
Subject: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 9:09 PM
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While we watch the Fiscal Cliff brinkmanship, it is easy to forget that "Obamacare" adds another 2-4% on top of wages, capital gains and dividends.

I'm not going to comment on what the two major parties are proposing or the movement to segment our population along income lines.

What I am simply pointing out is that the net result of the demise of the Bush tax cuts will result in higher taxes than during the Clinton administration for all income tranches which have their rates reset.

Once more I suggest the efficacy of considering (depending on your perception of what your tax rate is likely to be next year) swapping dividend paying stocks for stocks which are more likely to "bank" their profits. Likewise, swapping taxable bonds for tax free munis may also make sense.

Once more I point out that it is your income statement which is taxed, rather than your balance sheet (for now at least).

Jeff
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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410494 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 10:07 PM
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While we watch the Fiscal Cliff brinkmanship, it is easy to forget that "Obamacare" adds another 2-4% on top of wages, capital gains and dividends.

I'm not going to comment on what the two major parties are proposing or the movement to segment our population along income lines.

What I am simply pointing out is that the net result of the demise of the Bush tax cuts will result in higher taxes than during the Clinton administration for all income tranches which have their rates reset.


That's not quite true. The ACA provides a 3.8 percent surtax on investment income over $200,000 for individuals or $250,000 for joint filers. There is also an additional Medicare tax of 0.9 percent on incomes over $200,000 for individuals or $250,000 for joint filers.

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Author: NewEchota Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410495 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 10:10 PM
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..."Obamacare" adds another 2-4% on top of wages, capital gains and dividends.

Question (seeking clarification). Don't the increases only apply to households making at least $250,000 ($200,000 single)?

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Author: Knighted Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410496 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 10:36 PM
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Question (seeking clarification). Don't the increases only apply to households making at least $250,000 ($200,000 single)?

Good point. Who cares about tax increases on those making over $200,000, so long as it doesn't affect me? "Don't tax me, don't tax thee, tax that fellow behind the tree!"

Taxing thy neighbor will be the ruination of this once great nation. It's happened to Europe, and it's coming to a country near you.

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410498 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 10:54 PM
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Good point. Who cares about tax increases on those making over $200,000, so long as it doesn't affect me? "Don't tax me, don't tax thee, tax that fellow behind the tree!"

Taxing thy neighbor will be the ruination of this once great nation. It's happened to Europe, and it's coming to a country near you.


Oh please. First, name a country that doesn't collect taxes. Then, name a period of time in this country when taxes weren't collected. If you can't think of an answer to either or both of those questions then your comments might just be a little too silly to be taken seriously.

Next, the OP's cautionary statement regarding increased taxes was incorrect as written, and therefore the investment advice needed clarification. It is certainly reasonable to provide clarification in that context, without commenting on the efficacy of the policies being discussed (and no comments were provided, except by you).

Finally, Europe's economic problems are almost entirely related to various counties having a common currency but not a common political system. There is a major lesson to be learned there, but it has little to do with taxation.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410499 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 10:56 PM
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Taxing thy neighbor will be the ruination of this once great nation. It's happened to Europe, and it's coming to a country near you.

Oh please. First, name a country that doesn't collect taxes. Then, name a period of time in this country when taxes weren't collected. If you can't think of an answer to either or both of those questions then your comments might just be a little too silly to be taken seriously.


Oh please, try actually reading a comment before declaring it silly.

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Author: qazulight Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410500 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 11:02 PM
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Good point. Who cares about tax increases on those making over $200,000, so long as it doesn't affect me? "Don't tax me, don't tax thee, tax that fellow behind the tree!"

Taxing thy neighbor will be the ruination of this once great nation. It's happened to Europe, and it's coming to a country near you.

Oh please. First, name a country that doesn't collect taxes. Then, name a period of time in this country when taxes weren't collected. If you can't think of an answer to either or both of those questions then your comments might just be a little too silly to be taken seriously.

Next, the OP's cautionary statement regarding increased taxes was incorrect as written, and therefore the investment advice needed clarification. It is certainly reasonable to provide clarification in that context, without commenting on the efficacy of the policies being discussed (and no comments were provided, except by you).

Finally, Europe's economic problems are almost entirely related to various counties having a common currency but not a common political system. There is a major lesson to be learned there, but it has little to do with taxation.


The OP was pointing out the the +250,000 incomes have already been hit with a tax increase via the Affordable Healthcare Act, then the line in the sand for the President is another increase for the wealthy.

Cheers
Qazulight (Two incomes no kids, not going to get hit with the +250,000 tax, but might get hit with the AMT if we go over the cliff.)

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410501 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 11:04 PM
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Oh please, try actually reading a comment before declaring it silly.

Okay I read it again. I was wrong to declare it silly. It was extremely silly.

Thanks for the reality check.

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410502 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 11:14 PM
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Jeff

Wendy is going to very properly beat you to within an inch of your miserable life. She is going to video tape the beating and put it on Utube as a warning to others who start tax whine political threads on METaR. }};-D


Any <just back from picking up Banker Lady's outlaws> mouse

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Author: Watty56 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410503 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 11:33 PM
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Just for reference here is a link that shows past tax rates.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/us-federal-individual-incom...

Scroll now a few pages and watch your eyes bug out.


Here is how some of the numbers work out;

http://taxfoundation.org/article/examples-taxpayers-facing-m...

Is that fair?

I don't know and there really isn't a reasonable way to define "fair" since it is a matter of opinion and if you are the one paying it. A better question might be to ask is if that is significant.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410504 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/4/2012 11:49 PM
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Oh please, try actually reading a comment before declaring it silly.

Okay I read it again. I was wrong to declare it silly. It was extremely silly.

Thanks for the reality check.


So you're not going to re-quote the important line, ignore half of what you quote, and declare it silly? You're just going to declare the entire thing silly without any explanation of why something so obviously true and relevant is silly?

Okay. Obviously there's no hope of getting anything intelligent out of you.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410508 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/5/2012 12:32 AM
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..."Obamacare" adds another 2-4% on top of wages, capital gains and dividends.
==========
Question (seeking clarification). Don't the increases only apply to households making at least $250,000 ($200,000 single)?



but that's pretty much everyone ,no?

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410509 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/5/2012 12:45 AM
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So you're not going to re-quote the important line, ignore half of what you quote, and declare it silly? You're just going to declare the entire thing silly without any explanation of why something so obviously true and relevant is silly?

Okay. Obviously there's no hope of getting anything intelligent out of you.


Without explanation?? I did provide an explanation. Since you need a re-quote to follow along, here again is the post in question:

Good point. Who cares about tax increases on those making over $200,000, so long as it doesn't affect me? "Don't tax me, don't tax thee, tax that fellow behind the tree!"

Taxing thy neighbor will be the ruination of this once great nation. It's happened to Europe, and it's coming to a country near you.


That's the whole post. To which I responded (in part):

Finally, Europe's economic problems are almost entirely related to various counties having a common currency but not a common political system. There is a major lesson to be learned there, but it has little to do with taxation.

Now, that explanation might make you mad, and you might disagree with it for reasons you aren't willing to share with us mortals, but it is an explanation and I did provide one.

If you don't agree with that conclusion, that's fine. But I notice you didn't attempt to refute my statement, you simply attacked my intelligence. That's a pretty clear sign you don't have a rebuttal.

That's fine too, but also note that I didn't attack the previous poster, I challenged his statement. I said specifically "your comments might just be a little too silly to be taken seriously."

So let's summarize. You have a problem with me not quoting the full post even though I quoted the full post. You're grumpy I didn't offer to explain my post, even though I did. And instead of challenging any of the things I wrote, you just declare me stupid for secret reasons that you need to keep to yourself. Boy, you set me straight.

If I wanted everyone to think I was a buffoon I would post exactly what you just did. Note I didn't say I think you are a buffoon. Just that if I wanted to people to think I was a buffoon I would post the exact same things you are posting. In fact, I wouldn't change a comma.

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Author: NewEchota Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410513 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/5/2012 8:10 AM
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Question (seeking clarification). Don't the increases only apply to households making at least $250,000 ($200,000 single)?

Good point. Who cares about tax increases on those making over $200,000, so long as it doesn't affect me? "Don't tax me, don't tax thee, tax that fellow behind the tree!"

Taxing thy neighbor will be the ruination of this once great nation. It's happened to Europe, and it's coming to a country near you.


Seeking clarification seemed in order because the OP seemed to provide incomplete or misleading information (based on my understanding of PPACA). And making financial or investment decisions based on incomplete or misleading information usually leads to unintended consequences.

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Author: notehound Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410514 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/5/2012 8:17 AM
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Who cares about tax increases on those making over $200,000, so long as it doesn't affect me?...

So long as they only add extra surcharges to the "rich" people, like those rich people who have to pay Alternative Minimum Tax, I really don't care.

The AMT is also only for people over $200K/couples over $250K, isn't it?

</sarc off>

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Author: notehound Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410516 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/5/2012 8:32 AM
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(Two incomes no kids, not going to get hit with the +250,000 tax, but might get hit with the AMT if we go over the cliff.)

Q,

Doesn't the AMT, like the ACA surcharges, only apply to "rich" people?

;-)

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410520 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/5/2012 9:28 AM
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Good point. Who cares about tax increases on those making over $200,000, so long as it doesn't affect me? "Don't tax me, don't tax thee, tax that fellow behind the tree!"

Taxing thy neighbor will be the ruination of this once great nation. It's happened to Europe, and it's coming to a country near you.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the ruination of this once great country happened the day we started with supply side econ......

lets get this straight.....only the average income earners and the somewhat poor should pay taxes......

....and all real tax breaks should go to high income folks......

The rich never saw a tax break they did not like for themselves....which means that if someone else gets a tax break it is just wrong......

Dave

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410545 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/5/2012 11:58 AM
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And instead of challenging any of the things I wrote, you just declare me stupid for secret reasons that you need to keep to yourself. Boy, you set me straight.

Because it's much easier for him than actually trying to understand what you wrote. You didn't even give him any pictures to help.

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410593 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/5/2012 11:41 PM
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One thing that is important to understand is that people didn't really pay 70% or 90% tax rates on what they really earned, they only paid that on "taxable" income. And there was a huge industry of tax shelters that could provide you lots of earning with only a portion of it being taxable. You would end up paying rates a lot closer to today's rates. For example, there were investments that would earn $X and only 1/3 of $X was taxable income, so at 70%, that results in a tax rate of about 23.3% or not much more than capital gains taxes today.

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Author: wittgenstein Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410603 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/6/2012 8:21 AM
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Whatever the US gov. can do to the "rich", the French can get their message across even better. (He might be rethinking that move from Russia.)


http://news.yahoo.com/18th-century-french-chateau-razed-mist...


jz

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410606 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/6/2012 9:13 AM
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jz

Having read the article earlier this morning my first thought was to wonder if he already had the plans for his modern "exact replica" on the site?

Just a thought.

**** absolutely not signed ****


"I'm in shock ...I understand the turmoil of the community," local media quoted Stroskin as saying.
He told them he plans to build an exact replica of lost manor on the site.


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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410614 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/6/2012 9:49 AM
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...my first thought was to wonder if he already had the plans for his modern "exact replica" on the site?

You mean, his archetect may have told him that, to get modern plumbing/HVAC/electrical into the place, it would be cheaper to start from a clean sheet, rather than retrofitting the place? So blame the "mistake" on some local official, sue the town for the "value" of the old building, and have the demo of the old one and building of the new one on the town's dime?

Are you getting cynical?

Steve

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410632 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/6/2012 11:28 AM
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Are you getting cynical?

Steve



Moi?.... must be the company I keep?

Many years ago I lived near an airbase in Greenwood, Nova Scotia. The local mall mostly burnt down one evening under suspicious circumstances. The owner announced in the local paper within a day or so that he would rebuild bigger and better. The announcement included a complete set of plans that didn't happen in that short period of time. The only problem was that the plans didn't take into account that part of the mall was 'saved' by the local volunteer fire department and since the insurance company wouldn't write those parts off he had to revise his plan.

There was little if any doubt among the locals of who was responsible for the fire but no proof that would get him to court. Well OK nobody was in the place as it was late night, the fire was started internally in the mall and he had the keys.


Any <just a little bit suspicicous> mouse

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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410638 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/6/2012 12:14 PM
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The announcement included a complete set of plans that didn't happen in that short period of time.

In the case of the place in France, it is probable that a complete set of plans would have been created for the rennovation, so would be easy enough to use the same plans to build a replica.

On the other hand, after watching "This Old House" since it's first project, and having seen a couple cases where the original house was so far gone, it was cheaper to pull it down* and build a replica, it's easy to see how the "mistake" in France could occur.

Steve...not cynical, realistic

*after cutting a few key points with a Sawzall, one house was pulled down with a come-along chained to a tree, while the other was pulled down with a pickup truck.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410725 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/7/2012 3:35 AM
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I see there is vast ignorance on here about who the AMT effects

It is vastly complicated (patched over year to year to supposedly "fix" hitting those it was not meant to effect aka as unintended consequences), not indexed for inflation, and more often than not, penalizes those who are already living in high-tax localities and states. This is also true during the Bush tax cuts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_minimum_tax

Really, folks, the tax code doesn't need to be this complicated. The only people who really benefit from it are accountants, lawyers, and those who can afford them.

But, heh, just "sign it", so you can see what's in it. I guarantee you, this time, just like all the other times it has been patched or "overlooked", it is you, not those you think you are going to stiff who will pay it.

As far as some other state and local taxes in high tax states like NY, companies who have no profits to report, due to a downturned economy, end up paying taxes on the company's networth (this is money that has already been taxed once, may have already been subject to AMT and sucked into the government trough, further weakening the business) .

I suspect it won't be long before these states start applying it to individuals too who live in those states, while at the same time pensioners from that state, that moved somewhere else, but still collecting their check won't. That's what they are trying to do in Great Britain to retirees that have moved outside the UK, because they can't afford to live there anymore.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410726 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/7/2012 3:47 AM
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Finally, Europe's economic problems are almost entirely related to various counties having a common currency but not a common political system. There is a major lesson to be learned there, but it has little to do with taxation.


_________________

I think both the Nazis and The Communists tried resolving that, each in their own way. Didn't work out too well. What they had in common, was to forbid anything but one common political system, which also entailed one party controlling the election process and administrative decisions and reducing all others to disposable fringe elements.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410728 of 455523
Subject: Re: Tax upon tax Date: 12/7/2012 5:13 AM
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Whatever the US gov. can do to the "rich", the French can get their message across even better. (He might be rethinking that move from Russia.)


http://news.yahoo.com/18th-century-french-chateau-razed-mist......


jz


___________________________

I doubt it. The krysha offers them too many services

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/hockey/mafia/c...

If anything, he'll bring more of his buds. Where else are the banks going to get their money (or better put "the government")?

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