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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 63145  
Subject: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/9/2010 1:39 PM
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<<he Associated Press


OLYMPIA, Wash. —

Police arrested 29 people after an anti-police march in Olympia turned violent.

Cmdr. Tor Bjornstad says officers were monitoring about three-dozen people dressed in black Thursday night. The people were wearing masks and calling themselves anarchists as they started marching downtown.

He says they spray-painted the camera of a photographer for The Olympian and tried to take his camera and cell phone. They also spray-painted buildings, broke windows and threw newspaper boxes into the street.

Two officers were hit during the arrests and those two attackers were booked for investigation of felony assault. Two people who attacked the photographer were booked for investigation of assault.

The rest were booked for investigation of riotous conduct.
>>




http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011563196_a...




I'm estimating that the violence and vandalism in this single episode pretty much dwarfs ALL the much reported political violence from the right in recent weeks.


I see a lot of hand wringing by the left about right wing political violence. And that's OK, as far as it goes. I think we all need to draw some bright lines against the use of violence, vandalism, and obstructive tactics for political purposes.

But the left has resorted to these tactics far more often than the right for decades, and has reliably tried to excuse and extenuate them.

Only fools want to see such tactics bring back "bleeding Kansas" to the United States. But that means that the left and the right need to condemn all forms of such behavior.



Seattle Pioneer
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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23809 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/9/2010 6:40 PM
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The extreme left and extreme right meet together in crazytown. But those on the right describe the Tea Partiers (and their vicious signs) as "the folks," whereas liberals call the extreme left nutty anarchists.

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Author: Howie52 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23810 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/9/2010 9:12 PM
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"and their vicious signs"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

curious kind of comment.

I have seen vicious signs - but in a thread discussing violent
protests I would not have expected a comment about "vicious signs"
unless perhaps they were being swung sharply at someone's physical
head.
Otherwise, a sign is just a sign.
And you may not like what the sign says or implies - but a simple
sign it remains.

Howie52
Who is known to use the word folks - and who is rather indiscriminate
about the use of the term.
Citizens is another term that could also be used.
And such is true for folks with quite extreme views and
even extreme signs.

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23811 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/10/2010 2:44 PM
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alstroemeria says

The extreme left and extreme right meet together in crazytown. But those on the right describe the Tea Partiers (and their vicious signs) as "the folks," whereas liberals call the extreme left nutty anarchists.

Just so. And in fact anarchists are not leftists at all.

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Author: ravvt Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23812 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/10/2010 4:37 PM
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and their vicious signs


... like these?

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/why-was-anti-bush-prot...

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23813 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/10/2010 6:23 PM
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We can always count of a couple of right-wing ideologogs to raise the level of discussion here on this LIBERAL discussion board, no?

Count Uptoten

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23814 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/10/2010 8:57 PM
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I'm estimating that the violence and vandalism in this single episode pretty much dwarfs ALL the much reported political violence from the right in recent weeks.


In recent weeks - perhaps. The right seems to be a little more incessant and whiny about it these days though.

However, I hear the right is somewhat proud of things like this:

http://olbroad.wordpress.com/2007/04/19/where-were-you-when-...

Heck of a thing to be proud of. And let's not forget the 'hero' who flew his plane into a building in Austin.

Volucris

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23815 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/10/2010 9:23 PM
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"Heck of a thing to be proud of. And let's not forget the 'hero' who flew his plane into a building in Austin. "

a good ole registered demmycrat, right?

t.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23816 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/11/2010 12:40 AM
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<<However, I hear the right is somewhat proud of things like this:

http://olbroad.wordpress.com/2007/04/19/where-were-you-when-...



There's certainly that.


I think those on the right rather generally cheered McVeigh's execution. I don't recall any elaborate efforts by the right to extenuate or excuse his crime, as happens rather generally with leftist political violence, in my experience.

There have been efforts to extenuate the crimes of those shooting doctors providing abortions.


I'll be interested to see if leftists get embarrassed about their acts of violence and harassment and dial that back for a while now that they've raised the issue. That would be a good thing.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23817 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/11/2010 10:55 AM
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I don't recall any elaborate efforts by the right to extenuate or excuse his crime

I do recall the defense of Oliver North--he;s still popular in right-wing circles. (Oh, wait--the RW doesn't approve of circles--too egalitarian--must have a hierarchy ;-)

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23818 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/11/2010 11:22 AM
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<<I don't recall any elaborate efforts by the right to extenuate or excuse his crime

I do recall the defense of Oliver North--he;s still popular in right-wing circles. (Oh, wait--the RW doesn't approve of circles--too egalitarian--must have a hierarchy ;-)>>



My recollection is that criminal charges against Oliver North were dismissed upon appeal.


And a government official in the White House pursuing foreign policy objectives is rather far afield from street level political violence.



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Author: cgrinder Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23819 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/11/2010 12:40 PM
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i believe ollie and the boys were importing or helping the importation of drugs into this nation to obtain money to supply guns in central america.

street level violence not directly but he facilited it.

i believe it was those liberal judges that got ollie off on a technicality.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23820 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/11/2010 12:48 PM
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<<i believe ollie and the boys were importing or helping the importation of drugs into this nation to obtain money to supply guns in central america.>>



I thought it was making a profit on selling weapons to Iran and using the money to fund anti Communist efforts against the Sandinistas.


<<i believe it was those liberal judges that got ollie off on a technicality. >>



Heh, heh! It's perfectly natural that liberals would suppose that it was illegal either to make a profit or to undermine a Communist regime.

Democrats should 'a known they had a tiger by the tail when Ollie refused to knuckle under and appeared befor the Senate wearing his Marine uniform.

Too bad Ollie lost his US Senate race.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23821 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/11/2010 2:50 PM
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My recollection is that criminal charges against Oliver North were dismissed upon appeal.


And a government official in the White House pursuing foreign policy objectives is rather far afield from street level political violence.<?i>

Correct. The charges were dismissed on a technicality. He had been given partial immunity from prosecution in exchange for his testimony to Congress. The judge ruled there was no way to separate what he had said to Congress and the other evidence. North got the last laugh. He later admitted he lied to Congress.

But what he did isn't in dispute. That is, he he sold weapons to a radical, anti-American government in order appease Islamist terrorists, namely Hezbollah. Hezbollah of course was responsible for the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut which killed 241 Americans. Also the French barracks bombing which killed dozens as well. Subsequently, The Iranian-backed Hezbollah had taken several American civilians hostage (one of whom was tortured to death), which was hurting Reagan in the polls.

North helped illegally funnel advanced weapons to the Iranians in exchange for Hezbollah releasing the hostages. Which worked, and a few hostages were released. Hezbollah, after how learning how lucractive North made it to capture and kill Americans, promptly captured several more to replace the ones they had released. Why wouldn't they? With a go-getter like Ollie North on their side the sky is the limit. Unfortunately for North and Hezbollah, the lid got blown off the deal before he could deliver more arms for new hostages.

Now, I happen to think it is wrong to reward terrorists. Especially terrorists who torture and kill Americans. I also happen to think that supporting Islamist governments is contrary to our national interests. Oliver North and his supporters think those things are justified, because the goal was to give Reagan a bump in the polls. I think that is whacked out, but Oliver North has a TV show and I don't.


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23822 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/11/2010 3:17 PM
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<<Now, I happen to think it is wrong to reward terrorists. Especially terrorists who torture and kill Americans. I also happen to think that supporting Islamist governments is contrary to our national interests. Oliver North and his supporters think those things are justified, because the goal was to give Reagan a bump in the polls. I think that is whacked out, but Oliver North has a TV show and I don't. >>



Terrorists get rewarded all the time. The question is.... are they our terrorists or those of our enemies? That oversimplifies things, but the "We don't negotiate with terrorists" line is fine for public consumption but too complicated for the way the world really works. You may have to deal with unsavory people because they have power, whether you like it or not.

And Oliver North's activities helped eject a despotic government from Nicaragua, with the Ayatollah paying the bill to accomplish that feat. That has a certain elegance.


In short, this was a political operation carried out for political purposes. I have no objection to your disagreeing with the purposes and methods used. The Reagan administration and Oliver North paid a political price for these activities, and very likely Oliver North lost his campaign for US Senate over this issue. That's all perfectly appropriate.

But criminalizing foreign policy operations probably is usually not wise, and I think dismissing North's conviction was probably the smart thing to do, and very likely the wise things to do.




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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23823 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/11/2010 6:42 PM
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And Oliver North's activities helped eject a despotic government from Nicaragua, with the Ayatollah paying the bill to accomplish that feat. That has a certain elegance.

I'm not sure how much credit Oliver North gets for that. For one, there wasn't an election for years after North's activities were shut down. After the election the Sandinistas retained substantial control over portions of the government, including the military. Daniel Ortega was president of Nicaragua then and is the president of Nicaragua today.

In short, this was a political operation carried out for political purposes. I have no objection to your disagreeing with the purposes and methods used. The Reagan administration and Oliver North paid a political price for these activities, and very likely Oliver North lost his campaign for US Senate over this issue. That's all perfectly appropriate.

But criminalizing foreign policy operations probably is usually not wise, and I think dismissing North's conviction was probably the smart thing to do, and very likely the wise things to do.


I don't think foreign policy operations should necessarily be criminalized. But the operations (and operatives) should have to follow the existing law. Our government won't function if one branch of government decides it can pick and choose what laws to follow. For example, North was originally convicted for accepting a bribe. I'm sure you'd agree that it should be against the law for US government officials to accept bribes, regardless of the foreign policy aspect.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23825 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/12/2010 10:05 AM
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ravvt,

Aren't you the LAST person to have the right complain about people who make vicious statemtnts?

Didn't you personally celebrate the murder of Dr. George Tiller with this precious gem?


"my mother always told me: "Never speak of the dead unless you say something good"

... George Tiller is dead ... good."

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Author: emtwo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23832 of 63145
Subject: Re: Tea Party Violence Dwarfed By Leftists Date: 4/12/2010 8:06 PM
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Aren't you the LAST person to have the right complain about people who make vicious statemtnts?

Posted at 10:05 AM...

Crickets chirping since...

A STFU of epic proportion.

v/r

Michael

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