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Author: JohnEBgood Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1956862  
Subject: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 10:51 AM
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House Republicans are expected to be harsh in their questioning at the Energy and Commerce Committee hearing. They’ll use her as a punching bag, making her answer for a law they wouldn’t have liked even if the launch had put Silicon Valley to shame....

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/obamacare-kathleen-seb...

I don't think I'll be able to watch the hearings without getting nauseous. One more opportunity for the Republicans to do everything they can to obstruct the work of the Obama administration. Nothing like a good witch hunt the day before Halloween, right? ;o)

Jack
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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907675 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:01 AM
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I give her some credit. Both she and the lady before her apologized for the mistakes.

It is a start.

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Author: laissezFaireOne Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907676 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:01 AM
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"One more opportunity for the Republicans to do everything they can to obstruct the work of the Obama administration. "

Because, how dare they obstruct the King!!!

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907678 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:04 AM
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I think that progressives should be pretty upset with Sebellius too. This is an important government program that is intended to provide a desperately needed service to a vulnerable population that (as a general matter) has fewer other resources to draw on. HHS has failed those people. The exchanges are an enormously critical part of the implementation of the ACA - it is very important that they work well if the law's goals are to be accomplished.

Her department did a bad job overseeing a very important project - important to the people, not the GOP or Obama or whomever. It might not be pleasant to watch, but Sebellius deserves the very uncomfortable day she's going to have.

Albaby

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Author: JohnEBgood Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907679 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:13 AM
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Her department did a bad job overseeing a very important project - important to the people, not the GOP or Obama or whomever. It might not be pleasant to watch, but Sebellius deserves the very uncomfortable day she's going to have.

I agree that this is a major foul-up, and that Sebelius should be held accountable.

What bothers me, though, is this never-ending cycle of the Republicans attacking everything about the Obama Administration. Heck, those creeps shut down the Federal government. And why? What good did they accomplish? I guess the strategy is to keep this up until 2016, when the Republicans will bring forward another bunch of loonies to choose from.

Plus it seems the ultimate of hypocrisy to tell us that Obamacare is a bad law that must be destroyed, then to go like a pack of dogs after the person whom they see as not doing a good job implementing the law.

Doesn't anybody else see what's wrong with this picture?

Jack

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907680 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:15 AM
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It's worse than that. The website fails are only the first shoe to drop. The other one will be when the employer mandate kicks in and the administration decides that many *employer-paid* plans are inadequate. You'll see millions more Americans who have jobs and plans they really like tossed out into the exchanges...and they won't like it one bit.

The reason will be simple: with the exchanges, companies will find it cheaper to not have to offer plans.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907681 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:20 AM
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Doesn't anybody else see what's wrong with this picture?

Nothing wrong with that picture at all.

Some dems did not approve of the war in Iraq and voted against it. That does not mean that they give up their ability to criticize (excercise oversight) if it is poorly managed.

The reps don't like the law and they (and the dems) rightly should wonder why it has been so poorly implemented. That is what "oversight" is all about.

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907682 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:22 AM
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Plus it seems the ultimate of hypocrisy to tell us that Obamacare is a bad law that must be destroyed, then to go like a pack of dogs after the person whom they see as not doing a good job implementing the law.

Doesn't anybody else see what's wrong with this picture?


I don't. One of the major elements of conservative objections to government having a large role in society is competence - the belief that government is not as institutionally capable of providing services as other actors. That's a major prong in why they believe that government should be limited. It's the "DMV" view of government - incessanty bureaucratic, unresponsive to the needs of customers, inefficient, and unable to perform its basic functions well.

So here, the government took on the role of acting as an insurance agent that will market and sell policies through an ecommerce site - and did it very, very badly. That's worthy of criticism, and it's entirely consistent with conservative critiques of government activity.

Albaby

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Author: JohnEBgood Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907687 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:27 AM
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The reps don't like the law and they (and the dems) rightly should wonder why it has been so poorly implemented. That is what "oversight" is all about.

But let's be honest. The Republicans are using this as an excuse to get rid of Obamacare. Period.

Jack

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907690 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:35 AM
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The Republicans are using this as an excuse to get rid of Obamacare.

_______________

One can only hope.

They don't need an excuse, they have plenty of valid reasons.

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Author: laissezFaireOne Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907691 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:36 AM
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"But let's be honest. The Republicans are using this as an excuse to get rid of Obamacare. Period.

Jack
"


Stubborn Jack. When Obama is criticized, Jack takes it personally! LOL

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907694 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:42 AM
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So here, the government took on the role of acting as an insurance agent that will market and sell policies through an ecommerce site - and did it very, very badly. That's worthy of criticism, and it's entirely consistent with conservative critiques of government activity.

_____________

But it did more than that. They also set minimum requirements that were higher than before. They set allocations that insurance companies had to spent on actual health care costs (I believe 80% on health care and 20% on administration).

The only real debate should be whether the current failures of O-care are because of the people running it are failing or if the problem is the law (and HHS regulations) that make it impossible to work properly?

Would the rollout have been smoother if someone else was running it or was the law so awfully designed, nobody could have made it work well?

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907695 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 11:42 AM
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But let's be honest. The Republicans are using this as an excuse to get rid of Obamacare. Period.

No.

Perhaps they are using this, in part, as a means to move public opinion but such a hearing has no possibility of repealing ACA.

Only the dems have the power, currently, to "get rid of" ACA.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907710 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 12:27 PM
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"But let's be honest. The Republicans are using this as an excuse to get rid of Obamacare. Period.

Jack "

Obamacare is not a good thing, why are you defending it?

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Author: MrCheeryO Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907731 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 1:24 PM
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...So here, the government took on the role of acting as an insurance agent that will market and sell policies through an ecommerce site - and did it very, very badly. That's worthy of criticism, and it's entirely consistent with conservative critiques of government activity....

True, as long as the conservative critique extends to the giant private/public enterprises that have helped screw things up. What is a criticism of government incompetence when the same critique can be made of giant public enterprises? I'm thinking of 2007-2008 especially when not just a website but the entire economy was almost taken down by a relatively small number of enterprises.

Then again, knowing how incredibly incompetent private enterprise can be, the HHS should have been all over the project and wasn't. Forbes usually does a good job of critiquing private enterprises when they screw up big time and/or fraudulent so maybe they will do it again in this case.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/10/30/us-usa-healthcare-o...

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907738 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 1:45 PM
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True, as long as the conservative critique extends to the giant private/public enterprises that have helped screw things up. What is a criticism of government incompetence when the same critique can be made of giant public enterprises? I'm thinking of 2007-2008 especially when not just a website but the entire economy was almost taken down by a relatively small number of enterprises.

The critique usually does extend to those types of enterprises. The conservative base was a staunch critic of the Wall Street bailouts, and indeed TARP was one of the motivating factors behind the Tea Party. House Republicans (and especially conservative Republicans) voted 2:1 against the first TARP bill, and even in the second bill the majority of the GOP caucus in the House voted against it.

The very first Tea Party protest was called to protest the Wall Street bailouts and TARP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_protests

Albaby

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907749 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 2:09 PM
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I don't think I'll be able to watch the hearings without getting nauseous. One more opportunity for the Republicans to do everything they can to obstruct the work of the Obama administration. Nothing like a good witch hunt the day before Halloween, right? ;o)

________________________

Right...you felt/feel the same for Sarah Palin and the left's witch hunt on her, HUH?

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Author: SpeedBump13 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907806 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 6:18 PM
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One of the major elements of conservative objections to government having a large role in society is competence - the belief that government is not as institutionally capable of providing services as other actors.

I have been wondering why nobody can see the forest for the trees. These failures weren't the Department of Web Design and its top experts. There isn't one.

This is yet another failure of overcomplicated outsourcing of government and likely overpaying in the process; very similar to the trillions wasted on military contractors.

-Wes

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Author: SpeedBump13 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907809 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 6:51 PM
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I see that MrCheeryO had the same idea. I also meant to say that Sebelius and HHS share much of the blame, but to point to this as a failure of government is dishonest or lazy. This is a failure of government trying to herd private cats.

Far from being an indictment of government trying to fix the healthcare payment system, this yet is another reason why we should be like every other modern country and have government simply provide healthcare. We overpay for less due those who profit off the sick, just like we overpay for defense due to those who profit off the deaths of others.

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Author: JohnEBgood Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907813 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 7:50 PM
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LurkerMom wrote:

Right...you felt/feel the same for Sarah Palin and the left's witch hunt on her, HUH?

I guess you're joking, right Mom? You are not seriously comparing Kathleen Sebelius and Sara Palin, are you?

Nobody had to go hunting for a stupid witch in the case of Palin.....
they saw one just about every time the woman opened her mouth!

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/chuckthomp/Politics...

Jack

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Author: laissezFaireOne Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907821 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 8:23 PM
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"
Nobody had to go hunting for a stupid witch in the case of Palin.....
they saw one just about every time the woman opened her mouth!

"

another typical elitist progressive i.e. beautiful people.

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Author: laissezFaireOne Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907822 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 8:26 PM
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" This is a failure of government trying to herd private cats.

"

ROTFLOL This is all about government's inability to run a business, which in essence is what they are doing with Obamacare.

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Author: SpeedBump13 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907834 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 9:07 PM
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This is all about government's inability to run a business, which in essence is what they are doing with Obamacare.

No. The ACA has no employees. It is just a flawed law. Government has compromised with those who hold the superiority of the private sector as an article of faith and is trying to get the private sector to screw people over a little less. The lesson from this is that there can be no compromise with greed.

We need to just ignore the health insurance profiteers and provide healthcare for every citizen the way every other modern country does. More-advanced countries even provide free healthcare for visitors!

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Author: laissezFaireOne Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907835 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 9:16 PM
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"Government has compromised with those who hold the superiority of the private sector as an article of faith and is trying to get the private sector to screw people over a little less. "

This is too funny. Government is screwing over the people. The private sector isn't. And when they do and get away with it, like banks, is because of crony capitalism. A private sector without government playing favorites is at the will of their customers. Screw the customers and lose the business. It is really that simple.

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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907836 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 9:19 PM
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So here, the government took on the role of acting as an insurance agent that will market and sell policies through an ecommerce site - and did it very, very badly. That's worthy of criticism, and it's entirely consistent with conservative critiques of government activity.


Except it's the boy who cried wolf. It doesn't matter what Obama does, they always say that it's part of grand conspiracy to destroy America because he hates America.

With that kind of history, how can anyone have any confidence that this hearings will be anything else except more of the same nonsense.

Congressional hearings aren't about finding where things went wrong and looking for ways to avoid those mistakes in the future. They are about the politicians trying to impress the voters, and more importantly, the campaign doners, while at the same time destroying the person at the table, just to make themselves feel better about being politicians.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907837 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 9:20 PM
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We need to just ignore the health insurance profiteers and provide healthcare for every citizen the way every other modern country does. More-advanced countries even provide free healthcare for visitors!

Hear, hear. Forget exchange sign-ups, thousands of pages of rules and all that. Issue every citizen a MediCard that entitles them to whatever health care they need. Then raise taxes to pay for it. It'd cost half as much as the current system.

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Author: wolsey1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907842 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/30/2013 9:34 PM
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Issue every citizen a MediCard that entitles them to whatever health care they need. Then raise taxes to pay for it. It'd cost half as much as the current system.


Exactly.

Why must it be a for-profit system?

Why not have it like, say, the police department, where taxes are such that this necessary service gets paid for.

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Author: JohnEBgood Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907864 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 12:10 AM
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Congressional hearings aren't about finding where things went wrong and looking for ways to avoid those mistakes in the future. They are about the politicians trying to impress the voters, and more importantly, the campaign doners, while at the same time destroying the person at the table, just to make themselves feel better about being politicians.

Boy....you deserve a MILLION recs for that one, Ray!

SO much time wasted by those televised hearings....and it's been happening at least since Joe McCarthy was around.

I wish that somebody would stand up in the middle of one of the hearings and SCREAM. Of course they'd be escorted out promptly.

After all....the show must go on.

Jack

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Author: culcha Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907883 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 7:53 AM
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What bothers me, though, is this never-ending cycle of the Republicans attacking everything about the Obama Administration. Heck, those creeps shut down the Federal government. And why? What good did they accomplish? I guess the strategy is to keep this up until 2016, when the Republicans will bring forward another bunch of loonies to choose from.

Plus it seems the ultimate of hypocrisy to tell us that Obamacare is a bad law that must be destroyed, then to go like a pack of dogs after the person whom they see as not doing a good job implementing the law.


Like Woody Allen's story about the two criticisms of the restaurant: (1) the food is terrible, and (2) yeah, and the portions are so small.

See the very beginning of this clip, the opening lines of Annie Hall, where he tells this joke (much better than I do): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrxlfvI17oY

culcha

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907884 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 8:16 AM
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That's a major prong in why they believe that government should be limited. It's the "DMV" view of government - incessanty bureaucratic, unresponsive to the needs of customers, inefficient, and unable to perform its basic functions well
So here, the government took on the role of acting as an insurance agent that will market and sell policies through an ecommerce site - and did it very, very badly. That's worthy of criticism, and it's entirely consistent with conservative critiques of government activity.


I might agree with you, except it was Republicans who insisted that the DMV only have two employees, that they open only on Sundays and Wednesdays for two hours, that no computers be allowed, that all forms be filled out in quadruplicate, individually, that applications be printed with invisible ink, that road tests occur only on sunny days and only all the way across the state, that no vans, SUVs, or station wagons be allowed, and that expensive private driving instructors be required for driver instruction.

Let's try to remember that what we have is closest to the Republican vision (the Heritage Institute and Mitt Romney) rather than the Democratic vision (single payer.) It seems disingenuous, to out it politely, to therefore accept the Republican criticism of the Rube Goldberg machine that is their own design, rather than the far simpler one which is already in existence at the VA, at Medicare, and in countries around the world.

Is the system screwed up? Yes. Whose fault is that, again?

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907887 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 8:29 AM
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Let's try to remember that what we have is closest to the Republican vision (the Heritage Institute and Mitt Romney) rather than the Democratic vision (single payer.)
__________________________________________

What a crock of manure

In a thread that should shame all Democrats, but of course they are incapable of shame

Dems are such sleaze they likely do not even recognize what they do

Would a man have taken any less abuse? Only a sleazeball would actually think so and make this a gender issue. The lack of a shame response really stops any rational dialogue.

It was a Republican plan?

Wow another attack of the sleaze. If a Republican plan is why this was instituted the Dems made it all theirs. Did America refuse totally to accept a Dem plan? I do not know. I only saw one lying Presided od one plan whose implementation had Republicans totally shut out.

These arguments from Dems are thoroughly disgusting

This is what Dems chose to do, and in FACT had to bribe fellow Dems to go along with.

This is NOT the Republican plan, ad lying all day might work, but it will still be lying.

I know Dems do not believe it, but it is actually true, that if you get away with lies, you are still a liar. I know you in particular, but Dems in general beleive if you lie and the press goes along it becomes truth and anyone not going along with your lie becomes a liar

It doesn't work that way. Even if you get away with and profit from a lie, you are still a liar

Further, as a group you are making a mistake that will bite you along with the rest of us, which is why we care, we could no longer care at all about you, we will get hurt.

You are in bed with liars. They have told you they will take care of you )aside from parsing what take care of means) you should be very wary, they are lying to everyone, you know that, because no one is that dumb, yet you believe they do this lying just for you

No they lie for them, you are useful idiots, and you know it, is not now the time to act less stupid and demand better.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907890 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 8:40 AM
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Republicans who insisted that the DMV only have two employees, that they open only on Sundays and Wednesdays for two hours, that no computers be allowed, that all forms be filled out in quadruplicate, individually, that applications be printed with invisible ink, that road tests occur only on sunny days and only all the way across the state, that no vans, SUVs, or station wagons be allowed, and that expensive private driving instructors be required for driver instruction.

Not according to IT experts, who in many respects were for Obamacare, even worked on it, burning both ends of the candle trying to get it done, and then quit.

They say the blame is squarely on idiots.

This guy sums it up pretty well

I was affiliated with this project pretty closely for a while. A large part of the issue is born from statute and having to put together a complete jigsaw puzzle of a law by a date that was likely entirely motivated by politics. Another issue was inefficient government processes, and way too many people touching way too much. Yet another issue was that I did not meet one convincing or real programmer (forget about a programmer with a health IT/policy background). All I saw were a bunch of hack suits who carried the latest IT proj. management manuals - not impressed at all. These hacks ultimately became the managers of IT contracts. They know nothing about what the policy means, therefore they know nothing about what the business requirements accomplish. Therefore they have no grand vision of how to tie together the technical architecture on a macro level, other than what can be presented in nice PP presentations or Microsoft Project reports. Therefore, they could never provide any real oversight of the development and installation across multiple agencies (who have their own suits, IT managers, and contractors). So by the time everyone realized the real scope of the project in terms of operability with sooo many stakeholders, there was little money, little time, and little resources. I mean, I really could go on, but you all have essentially confirmed what I suspected/expected. It's not surprising that the homepage is poop, as I'm sure some details were overlooked. I do think that there are larger issues yet to be unraveled, and I don't know if there is the bandwidth and expertise to address a spread of wildfires. IT project management is a joke. ...






Let's try to remember that what we have is closest to the Republican vision (the Heritage Institute and Mitt Romney) rather than the Democratic vision (single payer.) It seems disingenuous, to out it politely, to therefore accept the Republican criticism of the Rube Goldberg machine that is their own design, rather than the far simpler one which is already in existence at the VA, at Medicare, and in countries around the world.

Well, if my memory serves me correctly, a certain poster by the name of Mr. Cynic said several times any universal healthcare should be designed after the VA model.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907891 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 8:42 AM
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http://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/1nifc5/i_guess_a_cou...

oops forgot link

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907895 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 8:52 AM
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I might agree with you, except it was Republicans who insisted that the DMV only have two employees, that they open only on Sundays and Wednesdays for two hours, that no computers be allowed, that all forms be filled out in quadruplicate, individually, that applications be printed with invisible ink, that road tests occur only on sunny days and only all the way across the state, that no vans, SUVs, or station wagons be allowed, and that expensive private driving instructors be required for driver instruction.

Typically not. The DMV is usually handled at the state level, and is the butt of jokes even in sapphire-blue states. The sparse staffing and outdated equipment are non-partisan. The "DMV" style agency exists in both Democratic and Republican controlled parts of the country.

There is, of course, the competing vision of government that Democrats can (and should) point to - the "Seal Team 6" or "Mars Curiosity Rover" type of government. This is the vision that conservatives often ignore - that government also manages to accomplish extraordinarily difficult tasks that require enormous resources, expertise, and skill.

The problem with health.gov is that it reinforces the former vision over the latter.

Let's try to remember that what we have is closest to the Republican vision (the Heritage Institute and Mitt Romney) rather than the Democratic vision (single payer.) It seems disingenuous, to out it politely, to therefore accept the Republican criticism of the Rube Goldberg machine that is their own design, rather than the far simpler one which is already in existence at the VA, at Medicare, and in countries around the world.

We've disagreed on that point before - and regardless of whether you think the mandate is the Republican vision (which I still think is farcical, given the utter absence of any effort on the party to advance that idea anywhere they had power), certainly the idea that the federal government pay for all these folks to get their insurance (ie. the subsidies and the Medicaid expansion) that makes up the heart of the ACA is not. Nor is entirely accurate to label "single-payer" as the Democratic vision, for much the same reason - while there is a progressive segment of the caucus that longs for single payer, the bulk of the caucus is utterly unwilling to tell some 180 million Americans that they're going to have to switch from their current plans to a government plan.

In that respect, the ACA is far closer to the "Democratic vision" than any Republican vision. It represents what the Democratic caucus (as it existed in 2009) was willing to vote for, and what no Republicans were willing to support.

Albaby

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907936 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 11:15 AM
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Her department did a bad job overseeing a very important project - important to the people, not the GOP or Obama or whomever. It might not be pleasant to watch, but Sebellius deserves the very uncomfortable day she's going to have.

I agree that they didn't do the job properly, but to attack her as if she is a bad person who intentionally screwed up, as if she were a teaparty politician, is not productive.

It's a great waste of the taxpayers dime to spend time castigating a person for a problem when that person should be spending 100% of her time fixing the problem.

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907945 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 11:25 AM
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I agree that they didn't do the job properly, but to attack her as if she is a bad person who intentionally screwed up, as if she were a teaparty politician, is not productive.

It's a great waste of the taxpayers dime to spend time castigating a person for a problem when that person should be spending 100% of her time fixing the problem.


Oh, I don't think so. Having good intentions is important - but when you're overseeing a big project and it gets screwed up in ways that are your fault, you are going to get called on the carpet by your bosses (which include Congress when you work for the government). You don't get to spend 100% of your time fixing the problem - you have to spend some of your time explaining the problem to your bosses so that they: i) can find out how big the problem is; and ii) figure out if you should be the one fixing it or not.

If your agency's most important projects goes south, it is both expected and appropriate that you'll get hauled in front of Congressional committee to explain what happened. Which is why no one has really criticized the fact that she was called in to testify.

Albaby

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908096 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 4:25 PM
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If your agency's most important projects goes south, it is both expected and appropriate that you'll get hauled in front of Congressional committee to explain what happened.

you have to spend some of your time explaining the problem to your bosses so that they: i) can find out how big the problem is; and ii) figure out if you should be the one fixing it or not.


If the goal of the inquisition is to figure out how to fix the problems, then it's a productive use of taxpayer time and money.

If the goal of the inquisition is merely political grandstanding, and another attempt to hinder and/or end the program, then it's a waste of taxpayers time and money.

It sounds like the latter to me.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908104 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 10/31/2013 5:39 PM
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I guess you're joking, right Mom? You are not seriously comparing Kathleen Sebelius and Sara Palin, are you?

______________________________

Oh No, I'm not joking. Haven't you heard what is being said about Sebelius and her congressional testimony? "Pathetic, horrible, mortifying performance." Sebelius is a blooming disaster for the dems. There is a constant call for Sebelius to resign or be fired from her job. Sebelius is the butt joke of ALL the late night talk shows. The prez may keep her on, but beyond that her political career is over.

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Author: JohnEBgood Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908152 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 11/1/2013 12:18 AM
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Haven't you heard what is being said about Sebelius....

Sorry, Mom. I watch the play......then I write my OWN review.

I watched enough of Palin to convince me that there are a few parts missing from her brain. But if you think she's OK.......

Jack

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908180 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 11/1/2013 8:43 AM
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I watched enough of Palin to convince me that there are a few parts missing from her brain. But if you think she's OK.......

Jack

_____________________

My, I never realized how cruel you can be.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908199 of 1956862
Subject: Re: Tear That Lady Down, Boys! Date: 11/1/2013 9:41 AM
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"I watched enough of Palin to convince me that there are a few parts missing from her brain."

If it is only a few, they were pretty important parts...

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